Re: [job advert] looking for a perl person to write a web control panel
On Sun, Aug 31, 2008 at 06:57:53PM +0100, Martin A. Brooks wrote: Dave Cross wrote: A flat fee of £500 is offered plus on-going support and maintenance at a rate to be agreed. You're saying that you think this is one (or, at a push, two) day's work. Does that sound right? Yes. Speaking as somebody who got started doing web dev as part of systems automation projects: I was that optimistic once too. -- Matt S Trout Need help with your Catalyst or DBIx::Class project? Technical Directorhttp://www.shadowcat.co.uk/catalyst/ Shadowcat Systems Ltd. Want a managed development or deployment platform? http://chainsawblues.vox.com/http://www.shadowcat.co.uk/servers/
Re: [job advert] looking for a perl person to write a web control panel
On Sun, Aug 31, 2008 at 09:39:51PM +0100, Greg McCarroll wrote: And, in no way related to Martin, but related to software value, http://notalwaysright.com/thickheaded-as-thieves/739 We'd be delighted to send you a new registration code. For security reasons we need to post it. What's your address? -- David Cantrell | Enforcer, South London Linguistic Massive Wow, my first sigquoting! I feel so special now! -- Dan Sugalski
Re: [job advert] looking for a perl person to write a web control panel
Hi Martin, Martin A. Brooks wrote: We are looking for a Perl programmer to develop a customer-facing web control panel for our antispam and antivirus mail filtering service. Currently, all configuration is done via a combination of database (postgres) and flat text files. We would like to have a secure, intuitive and user-friendly interface built to manage this system for clients and in-house admin staff. Web design skills are _not_ required (have html monkey) though may be an advantage. Having a better than average knowledge of how email works is useful. Do you have a detailed spec and/or UI design completed or would this be part of the work you want doing ? S.
Re: [job advert] looking for a perl person to write a web control panel
Simon Wilcox wrote: Do you have a detailed spec and/or UI design completed or would this be part of the work you want doing ? I have a reasonable story-board for how I would want the panel to work, it's not entirely complete. The UI design work will be done as templates by the aforementioned html monkey. -- Martin A. Brooks | http://www.antibodymx.net/ | Anti-spam anti-virus Consultant| [EMAIL PROTECTED] | filtering. Inoculate antibodymx.net | m: +447792493388 | your mail system.
Re: [job advert] looking for a perl person to write a web control panel
Hi Martin, Thank you for using Perl - and thank you for offering people the chance to work on your project. I hope you are successful in finding someone. Leo
Re: [job advert] looking for a perl person to write a web control panel
Greg McCarroll wrote: I personally reckon he'll get a taker, and I'm not sure either of them will be fully satisfied, but thats ok. And of course you can always suggest to Martin you'll do it for more as a counter offer. What's maybe more interesting is the value/cost people put on fixed term work vs. contracting and of course the value people put on a really good job (and what that means) and a shoddy job And also the question of the degree to which technical acumen correlates with business acumen - and the client's ability to assess both. First contract I ever took - the agency got 30% of what I got - because I didn't know enough to know to ask or what was reasonable. And I got off relatively lightly. I met another contractor who's agent took 100%. He quit the day he found out and they were pretty much whatever in their attitude. I have a rule about never taking fixed price contracts on unless the spec is pretty much nailed. Rumour is Ross Perot made his billions on change requests... Chris _ Make a mini you and download it into Windows Live Messenger http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/111354029/direct/01/
Re: [job advert] looking for a perl person to write a web control panel
Chris Jack wrote: Rumour is Ross Perot made his billions on change requests... I love that clown act he does. A
Re: [job advert] looking for a perl person to write a web control panel
Leo Lapworth wrote: Hi Martin, Thank you for using Perl - and thank you for offering people the chance to work on your project. I hope you are successful in finding someone. You must be new here :) I have spoken today with an LPMer who's interested in taking on the work. His assessment of the sort of time required having seen that spec (hey, fancy that! looking at the spec before deciding whether or not someone's requesting skewered horse for dinner) agrees roughly with mine. I'm hoping it'll be a mutually beneficial project. -- Martin A. Brooks | http://www.antibodymx.net/ | Anti-spam anti-virus Consultant| [EMAIL PROTECTED] | filtering. Inoculate antibodymx.net | m: +447792493388 | your mail system.
Re: [job advert] looking for a perl person to write a web control panel
On 31 Aug 2008, at 17:54, Martin A. Brooks wrote: [...] A flat fee of £500 is offered plus on-going support and maintenance at a rate to be agreed. Do you want a pony on a stick with that?
Re: [job advert] looking for a perl person to write a web control panel
On Sun, 31 Aug 2008, Peter Corlett wrote: Do you want a pony on a stick with that? surely a metal pole would be more useful for spit roasting the pony. -- Bob Walker http://london.randomness.org.uk - http://tech.randomness.org.uk http://rwc.randomness.org.uk- http://londonjoinery.com for great beery justice!- meh! bah! indeeed!
Re: [job advert] looking for a perl person to write a web control panel
On 31 Aug 2008, at 18:22, Bob Walker wrote: [...] surely a metal pole would be more useful for spit roasting the pony. I'm getting all the wrong mental images here.
Re: [job advert] looking for a perl person to write a web control panel
On 31 Aug 2008, at 17:54, Martin A. Brooks wrote: Hi We are looking for a Perl programmer to develop a customer-facing web control panel for our antispam and antivirus mail filtering service. Currently, all configuration is done via a combination of database (postgres) and flat text files. We would like to have a secure, intuitive and user-friendly interface built to manage this system for clients and in-house admin staff. Web design skills are _not_ required (have html monkey) though may be an advantage. Having a better than average knowledge of how email works is useful. A flat fee of £500 is offered plus on-going support and maintenance at a rate to be agreed. So that's about 10 hours work then. Someone with a decent CRUD framework should be able to get something up and running in that time, surely? And does your monkey have a feces bucket? -- Dave HodgkinsonMSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Site: http://www.davehodgkinson.com UK: +44 7768 49020 Blog: http://davehodg.blogspot.comNL: +31 654 982906 Photos: http://www.flickr.com/photos/davehodg
Re: [job advert] looking for a perl person to write a web control panel
Martin A. Brooks wrote: [ snip ] A flat fee of £500 is offered plus on-going support and maintenance at a rate to be agreed. You're saying that you think this is one (or, at a push, two) day's work. Does that sound right? Dave...
Re: [job advert] looking for a perl person to write a web control panel
Dave Cross wrote: A flat fee of £500 is offered plus on-going support and maintenance at a rate to be agreed. You're saying that you think this is one (or, at a push, two) day's work. Does that sound right? Yes. -- Martin A. Brooks | http://www.antibodymx.net/ | Anti-spam anti-virus Consultant| [EMAIL PROTECTED] | filtering. Inoculate antibodymx.net | m: +447792493388 | your mail system.
Re: [job advert] looking for a perl person to write a web control panel
On 31 Aug 2008, at 18:53, Martin A. Brooks wrote: [...] Someone with a decent CRUD framework should be able to get something up and running in that time, surely? Peter would seem to disagree there. I would also estimate it to take about a day or so. £500 would therefore be a reasonable estimate at the typical market rate of £300-400/day for a Perl contractor. However, you're after a fixed-price job, which costs more because the contractor is taking on the extra risk of the job going pear-shaped for reasons outside their control. And IMO, £500 isn't enough to cover that risk.
Re: [job advert] looking for a perl person to write a web control panel
On Sun, Aug 31, 2008 at 08:07:10PM +0100, Peter Corlett wrote: However, you're after a fixed-price job, which costs more because the contractor is taking on the extra risk of the job going pear-shaped for reasons outside their control. And IMO, £500 isn't enough to cover that risk. I think Peter is spot on with this logic, and I'd never want to bid on a fixed price piece of work at such a small amount, the handshaking time[1] alone would be just to large a % to make it worthwhile. However it's an open market, someone out there hasn't as much risk aversion as I have or as large a mortgage payment (its not that large actually, i'm scared of risk). I personally reckon he'll get a taker, and I'm not sure either of them will be fully satisfied, but thats ok. And of course you can always suggest to Martin you'll do it for more as a counter offer. What's maybe more interesting is the value/cost people put on fixed term work vs. contracting and of course the value people put on a really good job (and what that means) and a shoddy job. And these are both topics I believe will become more significant in the next five years or so. To be honest, I'm changing my views on software development quality daily now I'm back at the cutting edge, and it really doesn't have much to do with code/frameworks/documentation. On a recent project I was shepherding, the project plan had maybe 10 tasks, yet when I was told to move onto another project, my handover task list had 22 soft tasks[2] that were all about making sure the business got what they wanted, that ratio is fairly significant given there was a full test/qa/systems allocation to the project. Greg [1] Just made up the term, the time it takes to set up any contract/deal, agree exactly what the deliverables are and set up the agreement in a strong enough (legal) way. [2] None of them on the original plan.
Re: [job advert] looking for a perl person to write a web control panel
Dirk Koopman wrote: I agree. This is something that people that want fixed prices never seem to factor in. The other thing they often forget is fixed spec. I've had clients who think that fixed price equates to an all-you-can-eat buffet with an open bar. A
Re: [job advert] looking for a perl person to write a web control panel
On Sun, Aug 31, 2008 at 08:30:07PM +0100, Greg McCarroll wrote: On Sun, Aug 31, 2008 at 08:07:10PM +0100, Peter Corlett wrote: However, you're after a fixed-price job, which costs more because the contractor is taking on the extra risk of the job going pear-shaped for reasons outside their control. And IMO, £500 isn't enough to cover that risk. What's maybe more interesting is the value/cost people put on fixed term work vs. contracting and of course the value people put on a And, in no way related to Martin, but related to software value, http://notalwaysright.com/thickheaded-as-thieves/739 G.
Re: [job advert] looking for a perl person to write a web control panel
Peter Corlett wrote: I would also estimate it to take about a day or so. £500 would therefore be a reasonable estimate at the typical market rate of £300-400/day for a Perl contractor. So why the moon on a stick comment? However, you're after a fixed-price job, which costs more because the contractor is taking on the extra risk of the job going pear-shaped for reasons outside their control. And IMO, £500 isn't enough to cover that risk. I therefore look forward to not reviewing your CV. *shrug* -- Martin A. Brooks | http://www.antibodymx.net/ | Anti-spam anti-virus Consultant| [EMAIL PROTECTED] | filtering. Inoculate antibodymx.net | m: +447792493388 | your mail system.
Re: [job advert] looking for a perl person to write a web control panel
On Sun, Aug 31, 2008 at 08:07:10PM +0100, the following was promulgated by Peter Corlett: On 31 Aug 2008, at 18:53, Martin A. Brooks wrote: [...] Someone with a decent CRUD framework should be able to get something up and running in that time, surely? Peter would seem to disagree there. I would also estimate it to take about a day or so. £500 would therefore be a reasonable estimate at the typical market rate of £300-400/day for a Perl contractor. I have been working in a nice comfortable web agency for to long, £500 wouldn't start to pay for the UX guy to prototype the intuitive and user-friendly interface before a line of code was written ;-) -- Tony Kennick Web: http://www.pint.org.uk/ Blog: http://blog.pint.org.uk/ Photos: http://www.flickr.com/photos/thegreatgonzo/
Re: [job advert] looking for a perl person to write a web control panel
On 31 Aug 2008, at 22:25, Martin A. Brooks wrote: Peter Corlett wrote: I would also estimate it to take about a day or so. £500 would therefore be a reasonable estimate at the typical market rate of £300-400/day for a Perl contractor. So why the moon on a stick comment? Er, because you're not offering the market rate of £300-400/day? However, you're after a fixed-price job, which costs more because the contractor is taking on the extra risk of the job going pear- shaped for reasons outside their control. And IMO, £500 isn't enough to cover that risk. I therefore look forward to not reviewing your CV. *shrug* How terrible. I won't get a job that has all the signs of one that will shaft the contractor. This probably isn't your intent, but that's how it looks. No doubt you'll find some sucker who will take it on. Neither of you will be satisfied with the results.
