Re: keyboards/RSI/switching costs (was Looking for a secondhand Datahand Pro II)
I really love my Kinesis Ergo Contoured: http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/contoured.htm Not only did it eliminate my hand and forearm pain, once you're used to it you can type faster as well! It gives you hand separation, less impact (long travel and with practice you don't hit the stop), makes good use of your thumbs (why waste the strongest part of your hand?). It's great for unix/emacs/windows since control is naturally accessible under both hands. The only thing I will say is I haven't yet found a good way to use it with my Mac. Since I use emacs on my mac a lot I need three modifiers - control, Command, Option. You can remap home and page/up, but that still gets a bit akward, and I miss page/up. Having said that, I find for me the best thing is a change in hand position for alleviating pain - so I use my Kinesis during the day and an apple bluetooth keyboard (with no keypad) at night. If you don't like the apple bluetooth keyboard feel try a Happy Hacking keyboard: http://pfuca-store.stores.yahoo.net/ Mark. On Sat, Oct 24, 2009 at 12:35 AM, Dirk Koopman d...@tobit.co.uk wrote: Patrick Mulvany wrote: On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 12:23:51PM +0100, Smylers wrote: Civil Service guidelines for new software procurement probably insist on decent accessibility support[*2], but continuing to use legacy systems which predate[*3] those guidelines isn't inself illegal. Actually this isn't the worst problem you will have. All Gov type departments have very strict controls on software deployment so you would have to get the software tested and approved before you could get it installed. Even upgrading from one version of software to another is a pain never mind trying to get a new piece of software installed. I would not be surprised if total time from requesting a piece of software, through approval and installation took 6 months to a year and that is with everyone co-operating. If anyone feels the need to stick his/her oar in it could be sunk without trace in 30 seconds. Working as I do in the Ambulance sector, having to liaise with the Prime Contractor, then with Airwave, then with DH, I can confirm that 12 months is a bare minimum! Dirk -- Mark Aufflick contact info at http://mark.aufflick.com/about/contact
Re: keyboards/RSI/switching costs (was Looking for a secondhand Datahand Pro II)
On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 12:23:51PM +0100, Smylers wrote: Civil Service guidelines for new software procurement probably insist on decent accessibility support[*2], but continuing to use legacy systems which predate[*3] those guidelines isn't inself illegal. Actually this isn't the worst problem you will have. All Gov type departments have very strict controls on software deployment so you would have to get the software tested and approved before you could get it installed. Even upgrading from one version of software to another is a pain never mind trying to get a new piece of software installed. I would not be surprised if total time from requesting a piece of software, through approval and installation took 6 months to a year and that is with everyone co-operating. If anyone feels the need to stick his/her oar in it could be sunk without trace in 30 seconds. Just my thoughts Paddy
Re: keyboards/RSI/switching costs (was Looking for a secondhand Datahand Pro II)
Patrick Mulvany wrote: On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 12:23:51PM +0100, Smylers wrote: Civil Service guidelines for new software procurement probably insist on decent accessibility support[*2], but continuing to use legacy systems which predate[*3] those guidelines isn't inself illegal. Actually this isn't the worst problem you will have. All Gov type departments have very strict controls on software deployment so you would have to get the software tested and approved before you could get it installed. Even upgrading from one version of software to another is a pain never mind trying to get a new piece of software installed. I would not be surprised if total time from requesting a piece of software, through approval and installation took 6 months to a year and that is with everyone co-operating. If anyone feels the need to stick his/her oar in it could be sunk without trace in 30 seconds. Working as I do in the Ambulance sector, having to liaise with the Prime Contractor, then with Airwave, then with DH, I can confirm that 12 months is a bare minimum! Dirk
Re: keyboards/RSI/switching costs (was Looking for a secondhand Datahand Pro II)
2009/10/21 Jacqui Caren-home jacqui.ca...@ntlworld.com: Smylers wrote: You shouldn't; you should use an editor which has completion on words which are used in your project. I use a few with completions - with no one being best for the various languages I use. Which brings up what perl editors do people use and why? The best thing you can do is find an editor you like and customise it to suit perl. Conway's Perl Best Practices has example customisations for vim, vile and emacs which are worth a look. Even better, give the editor different modes to suit perl when writing perl, php when writing php, and javascript when writing javascript. I personally use vim, though if and when Padre gets good I will switch to that. I'm currently trying to add extract subroutine and rename variable to it, but it's easier said than done... Phil
Re: keyboards/RSI/switching costs (was Looking for a secondhand Datahand Pro II)
On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 8:56 AM, Philip Potter philip.g.pot...@gmail.com wrote: I personally use vim, though if and when Padre gets good I will switch to that. I'm currently trying to add extract subroutine and rename variable to it, but it's easier said than done... I'm pretty sure I saw a video demonstrating a working rename-variable plugin. I believe there were comments along the lines of 's/$old_name/$new_name/' and then the usual arguments over 'works most of the time' v.s. 'won't work all of the time'. --James
Re: keyboards/RSI/switching costs (was Looking for a secondhand Datahand Pro II)
2009/10/22 James Laver james.la...@gmail.com: On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 8:56 AM, Philip Potter philip.g.pot...@gmail.com wrote: I personally use vim, though if and when Padre gets good I will switch to that. I'm currently trying to add extract subroutine and rename variable to it, but it's easier said than done... I'm pretty sure I saw a video demonstrating a working rename-variable plugin. I believe there were comments along the lines of 's/$old_name/$new_name/' and then the usual arguments over 'works most of the time' v.s. 'won't work all of the time'. Any idea where you saw that video?
Re: keyboards/RSI/switching costs (was Looking for a secondhand Datahand Pro II)
Philip Potter wrote: 2009/10/22 James Laver james.la...@gmail.com: I'm pretty sure I saw a video demonstrating a working rename-variable plugin. I believe there were comments along the lines of 's/$old_name/$new_name/' and then the usual arguments over 'works most of the time' v.s. 'won't work all of the time'. Any idea where you saw that video? Possibly this? http://code-and-hacks.blogspot.com/2009/07/stealing-from-padre-for-vim-part-3.html -- John O'Shea Wordbank Limited 33 Charlotte Street, London W1T 1RR Direct line: +44 (0) 20 7903 8829 Fax: +44 (0) 20 7903 http://www.wordbank.com/
Re: keyboards/RSI/switching costs (was Looking for a secondhand Datahand Pro II)
On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 12:21:05PM -0400, jesse wrote: On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 04:50:19PM +0100, Smylers wrote: A friend with RSI has a keyboard he can use fine, but needs to avoid mousing. Unfortunately[*1] whoever wrote the bespoke software used by his branch of the civil service didn't bother with keyboard access for many features. In the US, that's ~illegal[1]. The UK doesn't have a similar law? Since when did something being illegal stop it from happening, especially in government? -- David Cantrell | even more awesome than a panda-fur coat [OS X] appeals to me as a monk, a user, a compiler-of-apps, a sometime coder, and an easily amused primate with a penchant for those that are pretty, colorful, and make nice noises. -- Dan Birchall, in The Monastery
Re: keyboards/RSI/switching costs (was Looking for a secondhand Datahand Pro II)
2009/10/22 David Cantrell da...@cantrell.org.uk: On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 12:21:05PM -0400, jesse wrote: On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 04:50:19PM +0100, Smylers wrote: A friend with RSI has a keyboard he can use fine, but needs to avoid mousing. Unfortunately[*1] whoever wrote the bespoke software used by his branch of the civil service didn't bother with keyboard access for many features. In the US, that's ~illegal[1]. The UK doesn't have a similar law? Since when did something being illegal stop it from happening, especially in government? Since people were unwilling to stand up for what they lawfully deserve -- either through apathy or because the costs in time and money to enforce one's rights are prohibitive. Phil
Re: keyboards/RSI/switching costs (was Looking for a secondhand Datahand Pro II)
jesse writes: On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 04:50:19PM +0100, Smylers wrote: A friend with RSI has a keyboard he can use fine, but needs to avoid mousing. Unfortunately[*1] whoever wrote the bespoke software used by his branch of the civil service didn't bother with keyboard access for many features. In the US, that's ~illegal[1]. The UK doesn't have a similar law? [1] http://www.section508.gov/ The Disability Discrimination Act[*1] (as ammended) makes it illegal to discriminate against an employee or potential employee on disability grounds But so long as you aren't discriminating, it doesn't mandate particular ways of doing that in specific situations, or particular things you must do. So terminating my friend's employment because their software can't be used by those unable to mouse would be illegal. As would forcing him to use a computer but refusing to buy him specialist equipment (such as a keyboard or mouse) that he has been diagnosed as needing. But apparently having him spending large chunks of the day sat around the office doing nothing is acceptable, so long as he's still on full pay. Civil Service guidelines for new software procurement probably insist on decent accessibility support[*2], but continuing to use legacy systems which predate[*3] those guidelines isn't inself illegal. [Don't take legal advice from a law school drop-out.] [*1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disability_Discrimination_Act_1995 [*2] Though such guidelines sometimes seem to be a bit 'checklisty', and often focus on unthinkingly, yet rigorously, applying some tedious rules which don't actually help the intended audience, while missing out on some big picture design stuff which would improve the user experience for all users, including the disabled. [*3] Or whose initial invitation to tender predated the guidelines, anyway. That probably being several years before the software was delivered, but by then it was 'too late' to insist that the developers actually have a clue and design sane interfaces. Smylers
Re: keyboards/RSI/switching costs (was Looking for a secondhand Datahand Pro II)
On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 11:53:56AM +0100, Philip Potter wrote: 2009/10/22 David Cantrell da...@cantrell.org.uk: Since when did something being illegal stop it from happening, especially in government? Since people were unwilling to stand up for what they lawfully deserve -- either through apathy or because the costs in time and money to enforce one's rights are prohibitive. There's also people not being aware of their rights, people being wrong about what their rights are, and people being scared of having their heads kicked in by the pigs. -- David Cantrell | even more awesome than a panda-fur coat Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats. -- H. L. Mencken
Re: keyboards/RSI/switching costs (was Looking for a secondhand Datahand Pro II)
On Wed 21.Oct'09 at 17:44:58 +0100, James Laver wrote: On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 5:21 PM, jesse je...@fsck.com wrote: In the US, that's ~illegal[1]. The UK doesn't have a similar law? [1] http://www.section508.gov/ We have the disability discrimination act which makes it similarly illegal. It also makes it illegal to develop a website that isn't properly accessible, but we've yet to see any prosecutions. Does your §508 have provisions for non-discrimination against healthy people (making concessions for disabled people available to healthy people?) ? That's what I'm using in the UK to justify my chip and signature card. Sadly, I have no idea. Best, Jesse --James
Re: Looking for a secondhand Datahand Pro II
James Laver wrote: On 21 Oct 2009, at 01:24, Paul Makepeace wrote: PS for the real layout nerds, http://colemak.com/ is a better choice than Dvorak if you're going to start from scratch http://www.kaufmann.no/roland/dvorak/ is worth a mention too. I got myself up to about one-quarter-speed on that last time I tried. OK I'll bite which is best for perl? :-) Or perhaps what would be the ideal tag layout for perl on a standard UK/US keyboard layout? Jacqui FYI: I always fancied having a perl keyboard - just for the pure nerdyness of it - I already have the pink rubber rollup keyboard which oddly enough is better than you would think given its wibbly wobblyness :-)
Re: Looking for a secondhand Datahand Pro II
Jacqui Caren-home writes: James Laver wrote: On 21 Oct 2009, at 01:24, Paul Makepeace wrote: PS for the real layout nerds, http://colemak.com/ is a better choice than Dvorak if you're going to start from scratch http://www.kaufmann.no/roland/dvorak/ is worth a mention too. I got myself up to about one-quarter-speed on that last time I tried. OK I'll bite which is best for perl? :-) Possibly which editor you use matters, too. I read the Colemak stuff, and it sounds impressive -- enough for me to think I'll probably give it a go. But that site's author says he uses it with a completely different Vim mapping, with keystrokes chosen to suit the Colemak layout. I'm pretty sure I'm not up for that: * Sometimes I have to log into somebody else's server and edit something, without my Vim customizations (or possibly even using a different VI clone). Currently I can cope with that; I'm not quite as efficient as with my config (and probably beep more), but I can get stuff done reasonably quickly. But if I get used to _entirely_ different Vim mappings then effectively I'm no longer a Vim/VI user. * There's mention that the Colemak Vim mappings don't quite support all standard Vim features. I use lots of Vim features, including some which I've seen other people claim can be 'safely' remapped because nobody uses them, and some which I used to think I had no use for but later appreciated. So I'm loth to lose any Vim features. * Lots of other apps use VI-like keystrokes, for example less, Mutt, pinfo, and Bloglines to list just those I've used since reading Paul's link this morning. Remapping just Vim doesn't help with all those. (Yes, many other programs can be re-mapped too. And GreaseMonkey can probably tweak Bloglines. But that's a lot of effort, and doesn't solve the general case.) Another contributor to that site says he uses Vim with minimal remapping: retaining h, j, k, l for movement but swapping which of them moves in which direction to match their physical position with Colemak. That avoids or mitigates some of the above issues. But I doubt I could live with pressing k being down in Vim and up in Mutt -- that still sounds way too confusing! Maybe I should switch to Emacs ... Smylers -- http://twitter.com/Smylers2
Re: Looking for a secondhand Datahand Pro II
On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 12:11 PM, Smylers smyl...@stripey.com wrote: Maybe I should switch to Emacs ... Same deal. I think I started binding them to different keys in order to use the same finger positions I was used to under QWERTY. --James
Re: keyboards/RSI/switching costs (was Looking for a secondhand Datahand Pro II)
Jacqui wrote: James Laver wrote: On 21 Oct 2009, at 01:24, Paul Makepeace wrote: PS for the real layout nerds, http://colemak.com/ is a better choice than Dvorak if you're going to start from scratch http://www.kaufmann.no/roland/dvorak/ is worth a mention too. I got myself up to about one-quarter-speed on that last time I tried. OK I'll bite which is best for perl? :-) Or perhaps what would be the ideal tag layout for perl on a standard UK/US keyboard layout? Before you switch keyboards, I think there is an important question about how often you are obliged to use a standard qwerty keyboard. I worked all over Europe for a bit using a large number of the European variations on qwerty (y and z switched for instance and punctuation in unusual places). I found the constant switching meant I was slower on all keyboards - but maybe it was worse because the keyboards were kind of the same. Maybe it's not such a problem if you switch between, say, qwerty and colemak. However... My understanding is that, despite a lot of the top results on google for comparisons between dvorak and qwerty significantly favouring the latter, there is actually very little to choose between the two of them in terms of speed. This is a quote from http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?DvorakKeyboard Liebowitz and Margolis have expanded their earlier discussion on the supposed 'network effect' of the two types of keyboard in their 1999 book, Winners, Losers Microsoft (ISBN 0-945-99980-1 ). Chapter 2 is titled The Fable of the Keys. In it, they refer to some ergonomic studies (pages 31 to 33) in which the theoretical performance benefit of Dvorak over QWERTY has been calculated. A study by A. Miller and J. C. Thomas concludes that no alternative has shown a realistically significant advantage over the QWERTY for general purpose typing. R.F. Nickells, Jr, found that Dvorak was possibly 6.2 percent faster than QWERTY, while R. Kinkhead found a 2.3% advantage in favour of Dvorak. Ok - even taking the top number without question: 6.2% is obviously better, but, for me, it's not enough to overcome the switching/convenience problem - and also the problem of being able to find a top quality ergonomic keyboard. Can anyone point me towards a Goldtouch style keyboard for dvorak or colemak? It's basically got a ball and socket joint joining two halves of a split keyboard allowing you to control both yaw and roll. It also has the advantage of no numeric keypad - so there's significantly less travel between keyboard and mouse. I haven't had significant RSI since I started using it, and I was in significant pain pre-adoption. I had been seeing an osteopath who pointed out that the natural position for the hand is in shaking hands position - so constantly rotating it flat (as for normal cheap flat keyboards) - and worse, then yawing it to point forward, places a lot of strain on your hands. He also got me to use a shaking hands position mouse. We're kind of switching into public service/health announcement territory here: but if anyone is interested, a good link to buy this sort of stuff is www.ergonomics.co.uk under Products-Accessories. I also use a specialist mouse wrist rest from Fellowes that moves with my wrist. I would be very interested to know if there are any truly independent studies on colemak versus qwerty keyboards - but I would be surprised if the difference came out at more than 10%. Chris _ Stay in touch with your friends through Messenger on your mobile http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/174426567/direct/01/
Re: keyboards/RSI/switching costs (was Looking for a secondhand Datahand Pro II)
On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 12:31 PM, Chris Jack chris_j...@msn.com wrote: Before you switch keyboards, I think there is an important question about how often you are obliged to use a standard qwerty keyboard. I worked all over Europe for a bit using a large number of the European variations on qwerty (y and z switched for instance and punctuation in unusual places). I found the constant switching meant I was slower on all keyboards - but maybe it was worse because the keyboards were kind of the same. Maybe it's not such a problem if you switch between, say, qwerty and colemak. A friend of mine in Canada tried it for a few weeks at work only (I figured there was no chance of losing productivity at work) and used qwerty at home and seemed to do fine with switching. No subtle differences, it's a whole different mode of typing. It also has the advantage of no numeric keypad - so there's significantly less travel between keyboard and mouse. That's distinctly not an advantage for those of us who type numeric IDs into database driven applications. I had been seeing an osteopath who pointed out that the natural position for the hand is in shaking hands position - so constantly rotating it flat (as for normal cheap flat keyboards) - and worse, then yawing it to point forward, places a lot of strain on your hands. He also got me to use a shaking hands position mouse. We're kind of switching into public service/health announcement territory here: but if anyone is interested, a good link to buy this sort of stuff is www.ergonomics.co.uk under Products-Accessories. I also use a specialist mouse wrist rest from Fellowes that moves with my wrist. I'm curious about trackballs. I use one ever since i had a minor twinge that might have potentially indicated RSI or CTS and I haven't had a recurrence. They do still require you to twist your arm to use though (but movement of the hand is distinctly reduced). --James
Re: Looking for a secondhand Datahand Pro II
2009/10/21 Paul Makepeace pa...@paulm.com On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 12:37 AM, gbjk g...@thermeon.com wrote: I've been looking for a datahand pro II. http://www.datahand.com/products/proii.htm I don't have one of those but I do have a Kinesis Advantage, http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/advantage.htm I have one of these at work, the keys mapped to your thumb alone (esc as I'm a vim user from time to time, but also delete and return) is worth it. Took about a week of feeling like I couldn't type at all, then a week at half speed, then back to full speed after that, and I can happily switch to 'normal' keyboards and back again as the layout is mostly the same. If you do get one make sure to follow the manual to help with muscle memory, that made a bigger difference than I thought it would. Leo
Re: Looking for a secondhand Datahand Pro II
James Laver writes: On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 12:11 PM, Smylers smyl...@stripey.com wrote: Maybe I should switch to Emacs ... Same deal. Except it wouldn't be for me, cos I don't already know Emacs! I think I started binding them to different keys in order to use the same finger positions I was used to under QWERTY. I could cope with Vim having most command keys in different places; it's only h, j, k, l that are problematic, because of their use as cursor keys, in a single block on the home row. From what I understand Emacs doesn't do that, so might be less disrupted by keys being moved around. (Also: I was joking.) Smylers -- http://twitter.com/Smylers2
Re: Looking for a secondhand Datahand Pro II
On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 2:05 PM, Smylers smyl...@stripey.com wrote: I could cope with Vim having most command keys in different places; it's only h, j, k, l that are problematic, because of their use as cursor keys, in a single block on the home row. From what I understand Emacs doesn't do that, so might be less disrupted by keys being moved around. Well, ctrl-n, ctrl-p for next and previous line and ctrl-f, ctrl-b for next and previous character. If you're using the arrow keys you don't suffer (but you fail for being insufficiently lazy about moving your hands) but considering how much you use them, your hands are reluctant to change. (Also: I was joking.) Yes, that wasn't lost on me, but I thought it worth mentioning. --James
Re: keyboards/RSI/switching costs (was Looking for a secondhand Datahand Pro II)
On Wed, 21 Oct 2009 13:05:28 +0100, James Laver wrote: On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 12:31 PM, Chris Jack chris_j...@msn.com wrote: Before you switch keyboards, I think there is an important question about how often you are obliged to use a standard qwerty keyboard. I worked all over Europe for a bit using a large number of the European variations on qwerty (y and z switched for instance and punctuation in unusual places). I found the constant switching meant I was slower on all keyboards - but maybe it was worse because the keyboards were kind of the same. Maybe it's not such a problem if you switch between, say, qwerty and colemak. A friend of mine in Canada tried it for a few weeks at work only (I figured there was no chance of losing productivity at work) and used qwerty at home and seemed to do fine with switching. No subtle differences, it's a whole different mode of typing. Problem then comes with people who need to help you on your computer. I often help a tester here who has a Natural split keyboard, and find it tough, but doable (I used to use a natural years ago, the problem is using a Natural from a sideways position or standing position while at $co-worker's desk). I can't imagine any way of coping if he had a Dvorak layout. Matt. __ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email __
Re: keyboards/RSI/switching costs (was Looking for a secondhand Datahand Pro II)
Problem then comes with people who need to help you on your computer. I often help a tester here who has a Natural split keyboard, and find it tough, but doable (I used to use a natural years ago, the problem is using a Natural from a sideways position or standing position while at $co-worker's desk). I can't imagine any way of coping if he had a Dvorak layout. When my friend Adam was switching over to Dvorak many years ago, he implemented two small shell scripts to toggle layout: asdf and aoeu It helped keep the problem Matt mentions in check.
Re: keyboards/RSI/switching costs (was Looking for a secondhand Datahand Pro II)
Chris Jack wrote: I had been seeing an osteopath who pointed out My interest in this thread is two fold. 1) I write or edit a lot of code. Why should I spend my days typing many repetitive words over and over. Does anyone here remember spectrums or ZX81's? :-) 2) My sister has a damaged nerve in her arm and I have sent her various keyboards, trackballs, graphics tablets etc. As she plans upon doing an IT degree and unless she can find soemthign she can work with work in IT is a no-no. And this would be a big loss tothe industry - she is *very* smart! Jacqui
Re: keyboards/RSI/switching costs (was Looking for a secondhand Datahand Pro II)
On Wed, 21 Oct 2009 10:32:46 -0400, jesse wrote: Problem then comes with people who need to help you on your computer. I often help a tester here who has a Natural split keyboard, and find it tough, but doable (I used to use a natural years ago, the problem is using a Natural from a sideways position or standing position while at $co-worker's desk). I can't imagine any way of coping if he had a Dvorak layout. When my friend Adam was switching over to Dvorak many years ago, he implemented two small shell scripts to toggle layout: asdf and aoeu It helped keep the problem Matt mentions in check. True-ish. If you occasionally glance at the keys it really screws you over though :) __ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email __
Re: keyboards/RSI/switching costs (was Looking for a secondhand Datahand Pro II)
On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 4:02 PM, Matt Sergeant mserge...@messagelabs.com wrote: True-ish. If you occasionally glance at the keys it really screws you over though :) Well unless you're buying labels to stick on the keys you aren't going to be able to look down on Dvorak, and I'd hope that by now you've muscle-memorised QWERTY. --James
Re: keyboards/RSI/switching costs (was Looking for a secondhand Datahand Pro II)
Jacqui Caren-home writes: My interest in this thread is two fold. 1) I write or edit a lot of code. Why should I spend my days typing many repetitive words over and over. Does anyone here remember spectrums or ZX81's? :-) You shouldn't; you should use an editor which has completion on words which are used in your project. 2) My sister has a damaged nerve in her arm and I have sent her various keyboards, trackballs, graphics tablets etc. As she plans upon doing an IT degree and unless she can find soemthign she can work with work in IT is a no-no. And this would be a big loss tothe industry - she is *very* smart! A friend with RSI has a keyboard he can use fine, but needs to avoid mousing. Unfortunately[*1] whoever wrote the bespoke software used by his branch of the civil service didn't bother with keyboard access for many features. Last night he was amused to relay that work's health safety advisor has decreed that he must use Dragon Dictate for input -- his job involves using this software while on the phone, and he's not sure how members of the public will take to being told move left or tap right in the middle of calls ... [*1] I say unfortunately, but it's probably because they were the lowest bidder, and whoever wrote the spec wasn't knowledgeable enough to be aware of what was actually required -- which is incompetent, rather than unfortunate. Smylers -- http://twitter.com/Smylers2
Re: keyboards/RSI/switching costs (was Looking for a secondhand Datahand Pro II)
On Wed, 21 Oct 2009 16:32:15 +0100, James Laver wrote: On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 4:02 PM, Matt Sergeant mserge...@messagelabs.com wrote: True-ish. If you occasionally glance at the keys it really screws you over though :) Well unless you're buying labels to stick on the keys you aren't going to be able to look down on Dvorak, and I'd hope that by now you've muscle-memorised QWERTY. On my own keyboard, yes. The point was on someone else's keyboard. __ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email __
Re: keyboards/RSI/switching costs (was Looking for a secondhand Datahand Pro II)
On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 04:50:19PM +0100, Smylers wrote: A friend with RSI has a keyboard he can use fine, but needs to avoid mousing. Unfortunately[*1] whoever wrote the bespoke software used by his branch of the civil service didn't bother with keyboard access for many features. In the US, that's ~illegal[1]. The UK doesn't have a similar law? [1] http://www.section508.gov/
Re: keyboards/RSI/switching costs (was Looking for a secondhand Datahand Pro II)
On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 5:21 PM, jesse je...@fsck.com wrote: In the US, that's ~illegal[1]. The UK doesn't have a similar law? [1] http://www.section508.gov/ We have the disability discrimination act which makes it similarly illegal. It also makes it illegal to develop a website that isn't properly accessible, but we've yet to see any prosecutions. Does your §508 have provisions for non-discrimination against healthy people (making concessions for disabled people available to healthy people?) ? That's what I'm using in the UK to justify my chip and signature card. --James
Re: keyboards/RSI/switching costs (was Looking for a secondhand Datahand Pro II)
Smylers wrote: You shouldn't; you should use an editor which has completion on words which are used in your project. I use a few with completions - with no one being best for the various languages I use. Which brings up what perl editors do people use and why? FYI: Currently writing a js SOAPLite driver so have Perl,PHP and Javascript in various editors switching between them for cross referencing/testing. Initially a tad confusing when in the same editor :-)
Looking for a secondhand Datahand Pro II
I've been looking for a datahand pro II. http://www.datahand.com/products/proii.htm Datahand haven't had any stock since January, and are still trying to source a manufacturer for a new batch. Does anyone on this list have one which they'd consider selling? gbjk
Re: Looking for a secondhand Datahand Pro II
On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 8:37 AM, gbjk g...@thermeon.com wrote: I've been looking for a datahand pro II. http://www.datahand.com/products/proii.htm Datahand haven't had any stock since January, and are still trying to source a manufacturer for a new batch. Does anyone on this list have one which they'd consider selling? gbjk What is it about the Datahand that you're interested in? RSI avoidance? Or do you think it will increase your typing speed? If it's the RSI avoidance, there are a number of other recommendable keyboards. Or for the typing speed thing, likewise. --James
Re: Looking for a secondhand Datahand Pro II
On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 10:12 +0100, James Laver wrote: What is it about the Datahand that you're interested in? RSI avoidance? Or do you think it will increase your typing speed? If it's the RSI avoidance, there are a number of other recommendable keyboards. Or for the typing speed thing, likewise. A combination of the two, in addition to the fact that I believe that there should be a fundamental revolution in the way we interact with computers, and what's often holding us back is the perceived unwillingness of the great unwashed to adapt to something new. Now a datahand isn't a revolution, but it's a step. Magnetic keys and millimetres of finger movement to signal to the computer is a step up from mechanical buttons and inches of movement. I also like not having to move hands far (or at all) to use a mouse. I love the thinkpad mouse button in the home row for that. One consideration is dvorak, but: - It doesn't change the fact that your hands are moving more than they need to in order to interact with the computer - dvorak can be used on a datahand. I'm on datahand's waiting list for the next batch, but I also wanted to explore. I've read very good things about the datahands over the years - do I perceive that you're against them or believe something else is better? Certainly other options are actually immediately available.
Re: Looking for a secondhand Datahand Pro II
On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 10:32 AM, Gareth Kirwan g...@thermeon.com wrote: On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 10:12 +0100, James Laver wrote: What is it about the Datahand that you're interested in? RSI avoidance? Or do you think it will increase your typing speed? If it's the RSI avoidance, there are a number of other recommendable keyboards. Or for the typing speed thing, likewise. A combination of the two, in addition to the fact that I believe that there should be a fundamental revolution in the way we interact with computers, and what's often holding us back is the perceived unwillingness of the great unwashed to adapt to something new. Now a datahand isn't a revolution, but it's a step. Magnetic keys and millimetres of finger movement to signal to the computer is a step up from mechanical buttons and inches of movement. I also like not having to move hands far (or at all) to use a mouse. I love the thinkpad mouse button in the home row for that. One consideration is dvorak, but: - It doesn't change the fact that your hands are moving more than they need to in order to interact with the computer - dvorak can be used on a datahand. I'm on datahand's waiting list for the next batch, but I also wanted to explore. I've read very good things about the datahands over the years - do I perceive that you're against them or believe something else is better? Certainly other options are actually immediately available. I'm a huge fan of Model M series, to the point I had a unicomp expensively shipped in from the US, and what a fantastic keyboard. It encourages you to type properly because it's actually a real keyboard (particular hate focused at apple here, the latest apple keyboards (one of which I'm using right now) are the ultimate triumph of form over function. It might make the marketroids happy, but it's going to cause RSI). I would just get a unicomp. It's shaped like a keyboard, it feels like a very good keyboard (springs, they bounce back at your fingers!) and my typing speed is improved using one overall. Of course you'll want to keep a correct typing position or the whole exercise becomes one in futility. --James
Re: Looking for a secondhand Datahand Pro II
James Laver wrote: I'm a huge fan of Model M series, to the point I had a unicomp expensively shipped in from the US, and what a fantastic keyboard. It encourages you to type properly because it's actually a real keyboard (particular hate focused at apple here, the latest apple keyboards (one of which I'm using right now) are the ultimate triumph of form over function. It might make the marketroids happy, but it's going to cause RSI). Couldn't agree more about the Model M (I have three original ones) or the awfulness of Apple's keyboards (from the company that brought you the urinal puck mouse, and it shows). The Ms are very noisy, however, which can be a problem in an office environment. Cherry do a keyboard intended for bulk data entry which manages to have a decent key action and long life while still using silent rubber domes. About £45 last time I looked, but very well worth it IMO. S
Re: Looking for a secondhand Datahand Pro II
On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 10:44 +0100, James Laver wrote: I would just get a unicomp. It's shaped like a keyboard, it feels like a very good keyboard (springs, they bounce back at your fingers!) and my typing speed is improved using one overall. Of course you'll want to keep a correct typing position or the whole exercise becomes one in futility. Thanks for the tip. I got it from another monger recently. Whilst I dislike microsoft in general, I've been a natural keyboard user for 10+ years now, and currently use the new 7000. I've found the split design and slightly concave design is a step forwards for them, and their key travel and spring has always been very good. However what I really want to do is completely move away from keyboards for the majority of my usage. My keyboard usage is very strict, and I've gotten more rigid with certain things. The most important of those for me is to try and minimise wrist movement, and to avoid using fingers when the wrists are turned. One particular offend of this is using the cursor keys with the little right finger, just quickly turning the wrist and arm to reach. That was a bad habit for a while, and I've switched to enforcing moving the whole of the forearm slightly when I need the cursors. There are some unavoidables on any type of traditional keybaord, though. The backspace key is always hit by my right ring finger, which causes extension. If anyone's thinking that I press the backspace key too often, then you're right: The number of times I type an expletive in email or IRC and then delete it is extraordinary ;o) I've considered using joel's approach to RSI, and just not delete the expletives. I also try to ensure my forearm to wrist alignment is close to natural when typing. I guess RSI is about 80% of my motivation here. Whilst I don't suffer currently, and when I feel a twinge I can adapt, I've hopefully got a long career ahead of me. I'm 27 and I've been touch typing for 12 years, the last 10 of which have often been hard work for sometimes 70 hour weeks. I want to be proactive about protecting my future against the risk of damage. I hear from so many people who have been working for 40+ years with bad habits and no issue. But I also hear from people whose lives have been severely affected. It's a die I'd prefer not to cast, tbh. Maybe that might seem melodramatic to anyone who has worked in similar for many decades without issue, I don't know.
Re: Looking for a secondhand Datahand Pro II
2009/10/20 Gareth Kirwan g...@thermeon.com: My keyboard usage is very strict, and I've gotten more rigid with certain things. The most important of those for me is to try and minimise wrist movement, and to avoid using fingers when the wrists are turned. One particular offend of this is using the cursor keys with the little right finger, just quickly turning the wrist and arm to reach. That was a bad habit for a while, and I've switched to enforcing moving the whole of the forearm slightly when I need the cursors. There are some unavoidables on any type of traditional keybaord, though. The backspace key is always hit by my right ring finger, which causes extension. If anyone's thinking that I press the backspace key too often, then you're right: The number of times I type an expletive in email or IRC and then delete it is extraordinary ;o) I've considered using joel's approach to RSI, and just not delete the expletives. I also try to ensure my forearm to wrist alignment is close to natural when typing. It sounds to me like you just need to stop deviating your wrists and force yourself to use your arm. A pair of those spiffy bowling glove things would be just the trick. (There is a good Get Fuzzy strip about this, but I can't find it) I've used a natural keyboard for 10 years, and I think they're great. Microsoft have always made good keyboards and mices. -- Jasper
Re: Looking for a secondhand Datahand Pro II
On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 11:43 +0100, Jasper wrote: It sounds to me like you just need to stop deviating your wrists and force yourself to use your arm. A pair of those spiffy bowling glove things would be just the trick. (There is a good Get Fuzzy strip about this, but I can't find it) Whilst that's exactly what I've been doing, religiously, it's still not solving my core belief though - keyboards seem wrong, given the ability to interact using less range of movement and less force, with no requirement to reposition hands to use different devices. Am I alone in this disillusionment? Nobody's replied with anything positive about datahands (or alternatives other to keyboards), but rather instead try this keyboard or do this to avoid rsi issues. Worthwhile, useful and appreciated comments, but IMO they're trying to avoid addressing a more fundamental limitation of standard keyboards which I'd like to completely sidestep.
Re: Looking for a secondhand Datahand Pro II
On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 12:04 PM, Gareth Kirwan g...@thermeon.com wrote: Nobody's replied with anything positive about datahands (or alternatives other to keyboards), but rather instead try this keyboard or do this to avoid rsi issues. Worthwhile, useful and appreciated comments, but IMO they're trying to avoid addressing a more fundamental limitation of standard keyboards which I'd like to completely sidestep. As far as I'm concerned, the Datahand is just a funny shaped keyboard... --James
Re: Looking for a secondhand Datahand Pro II
David Dorward da...@dorward.me.uk wrote: ...and then we shall tell Buffy and Willow that they are forbidden from taking their ponies to deliver beer ... I don't remember seeing an email about this. Can I please get myself added to the distribution list. Thanks Chris _ Chat to your friends for free on selected mobiles http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/174426567/direct/01/
Re: Looking for a secondhand Datahand Pro II
On Tue, 20 Oct 2009, Gareth Kirwan wrote: Nobody's replied with anything positive about datahands (or alternatives other to keyboards), but rather instead try this keyboard or do this to avoid rsi issues. Worthwhile, useful and appreciated comments, but IMO they're trying to avoid addressing a more fundamental limitation of standard keyboards which I'd like to completely sidestep. Im still waiting for my direct neural jack. -- bob walker buses should be purple and bendy
Re: Looking for a secondhand Datahand Pro II
On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 12:43, Jasper jaspermcc...@gmail.com wrote: Microsoft have always made good keyboards and mices. I've heard good things about their hardware (well, input devices, at any rate -- the context didn't include consoles) in general. Perhaps one should distinguish between Microsoft-the-software-company and Microsoft-the-hardware-company. Cheers, Philip -- Philip Newton philip.new...@gmail.com
Re: Looking for a secondhand Datahand Pro II
On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 02:27:44PM +0200, Philip Newton wrote: On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 12:43, Jasper jaspermcc...@gmail.com wrote: Microsoft have always made good keyboards and mices. I've heard good things about their hardware (well, input devices, at any rate -- the context didn't include consoles) in general. Perhaps one should distinguish between Microsoft-the-software-company and Microsoft-the-hardware-company. I love my Microsoft Natural Elite keyboard (the newer ones, IMO, have _much_ worse hardware) to death. Actually, I love it to death about twice a year. You see, the traces on the keyboard are water soluable. These things were _not_ built to last. That said, a replacement is about $25. Cheers, Philip -- Philip Newton philip.new...@gmail.com --
Re: Looking for a secondhand Datahand Pro II
On Tue, 2009-10-20 at 09:09 -0400, jesse wrote: I love my Microsoft Natural Elite keyboard (the newer ones, IMO, have _much_ worse hardware) to death. Actually, I love it to death about twice a year. You see, the traces on the keyboard are water soluable. These things were _not_ built to last. That said, a replacement is about $25. I have to agree with everyone's comments. As I said - I've been using them for years now, and on the whole they've been very good, though I too tend to go through about 2 a year. I'm just unhappy with the methodology now.
Re: Looking for a secondhand Datahand Pro II
On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 12:37 AM, gbjk g...@thermeon.com wrote: I've been looking for a datahand pro II. http://www.datahand.com/products/proii.htm I don't have one of those but I do have a Kinesis Advantage, http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/advantage.htm There are a few nice features: keys are arranged in a grid rather than a(n illogical*) offset arrangement on almost all keyboard layouts; concave; backspace enter keys and a few others operated by the thumbs--big win. The last point is worth the price of admission alone (a steep $299). It's also marked up in Dvorak and QWERTY if you're learning either. If you care, you can remap program macros. Never personally found the motivation myself. I've seen a few people at $work[-1] try the Kinesis and give up after a while: the punctuation and grid arrangement takes a bit of getting used to. I would expect the Data Hand drop-out rate a lot higher though... While we're at it, I'm a big fan of the evoluent Vertical Mouse, http://www.evoluent.com/vmouse2.html Annoyingly they've produced a v3 that has a detented scroll wheel which doesn't allow flicking for monster scrolls. Oh well. Paul * logic would dictate that the offset should be mirrored for at least one hand PS for the real layout nerds, http://colemak.com/ is a better choice than Dvorak if you're going to start from scratch Datahand haven't had any stock since January, and are still trying to source a manufacturer for a new batch. Does anyone on this list have one which they'd consider selling? gbjk
Re: Looking for a secondhand Datahand Pro II
On 21 Oct 2009, at 01:24, Paul Makepeace wrote: PS for the real layout nerds, http://colemak.com/ is a better choice than Dvorak if you're going to start from scratch http://www.kaufmann.no/roland/dvorak/ is worth a mention too. I got myself up to about one-quarter-speed on that last time I tried. --James
