Re: [LUAU] Intro
On Aug 10, 2004, at 10:37 PM, MonMotha wrote: Jim Thompson wrote: the non-MMU parts that made uClinux special are now part of the 2.6 kernel tree. Yes they are, though I haven't had a need to play with it yet as I do mostly ARM and embedded x86 work (well, and work on things that will NEVER run Linux) never say never. :-) Most of my recent work has been Xscale (which is arm at its core) and VIA's embedded x86 parts, though MIPS still features as a strong #3. There are uClinux-specific patches to the tree, but they dont' do much. While glibc won't work on MMU-less systems, there are many libc-like libraries that will, including dietlibc, newlib, and uClibc. As a bonus, when uClibc is run on a system with an MMU, you get support for shared libraries. Erik Andersen (the maintainer of uClibc, busybox, and other items in the embedded linux toolbox) has recently even made a complete uClibc-based debian 'woody' distribution (named 'uWoody') available. This is pretty cool, as its a built-from scratch distribution, rather that the more typical hack things back out approach. there are also uClibc-based variants of gentoo (easier to do than debian) Perhaps someone will release a uClibc variant of FC2. Well, while we're on the topic, I have some of my hack it out until it works based things, though recently I've been experimenting with buildroots and maybe OpenEmbedded. http://monmotha.mplug.org/flplinux/ http://monmotha.mplug.org/smallsys/ Buildroot was the basis for the very early musenki tree (http://www.netgate.com/~jim/Musenki), which begat the Vivato tree, which ... http://monmotha.mplug.org/tuxscreen-image.jffs2 is what runs on my tuxscreen, though I need to redo it. The musenki boards ran jffs2 as well. The image included things like an SSL-enabled web server and open ssh (this was in the days before dropbear and friends). All those are very old, but demonstrate what kind of space you can actually cram Linux into if you work at it. similar dates even. Hmm! I've seen Linux fit in under 1MB before. You can have an entire userspace in under 500k if you really want to (busybox/uClibc and some shell scripts, statically link busybox to uClibc), though it won't do much other than boot. We sell linux-based 802.11 devices that fit everything (web server, ssh and all) in under 2MB. 4MB allows me to add things like snmp, captive portals and ad-hoc routing (olsr). 8MB of flash is pure luxury. And then I have this 7 Ethernet, 2 miniPCI ixp425 board with 16MB of flash/64MB of ram here. No idea what I'm gonna do with it yet. :-)
[LUAU] LUAU history needed
Hi folks, This message is primarily geared towards all you old-time lurkers on the list. We are hoping to gain a few historical accounts on the history of LUAU to use as material to develop more content on the hosef.org website. I am doing as much as I can from Google and the existing LUAU archives, but it would really help to get a few paragraphs from anyone willing to share. Yes, I am aware that a lot of problems existed in the past, but a lot of good came out the group as well. This includes information on where the mailing list and website were hosted, where you folks met, and the principal maintainers and organizers. Please be sure to watch the Reply-To: header if you intend to reply off-list. Thanks, -Vince
Re: [LUAU] Intro
Jim Thompson wrote: On Aug 10, 2004, at 10:37 PM, MonMotha wrote: Jim Thompson wrote: the non-MMU parts that made uClinux special are now part of the 2.6 kernel tree. Yes they are, though I haven't had a need to play with it yet as I do mostly ARM and embedded x86 work (well, and work on things that will NEVER run Linux) never say never. :-) OK, port Linux to an 8051 with 256 BYTES of RAM and (at most) 64k of ROM. :-) Most of my recent work has been Xscale (which is arm at its core) and VIA's embedded x86 parts, though MIPS still features as a strong #3. I've been doing some MIPS work recently (reverse engineering the DDR machine). I like the instruction set, but the arch has some quirks that can really irk me. Haven't run Linux on anything MIPS yet though. ... Well, while we're on the topic, I have some of my hack it out until it works based things, though recently I've been experimenting with buildroots and maybe OpenEmbedded. http://monmotha.mplug.org/flplinux/ http://monmotha.mplug.org/smallsys/ Buildroot was the basis for the very early musenki tree (http://www.netgate.com/~jim/Musenki), which begat the Vivato tree, which ... http://monmotha.mplug.org/tuxscreen-image.jffs2 is what runs on my tuxscreen, though I need to redo it. The musenki boards ran jffs2 as well. The image included things like an SSL-enabled web server and open ssh (this was in the days before dropbear and friends). JFFS2 is pretty much the de-facto standard for linux filesystems on raw flash (it gets used on linear flash PCMCIA cards too). Transparent compression, wear patterning, etc. Very nice filesystem. Yeah, all those older images that include SSH support (I don't know if any actually do, though I made some that did) all used OpenSSH and therefore had to include OpenSSL. Cost you a LOT of space... All those are very old, but demonstrate what kind of space you can actually cram Linux into if you work at it. similar dates even. Hmm! I've seen Linux fit in under 1MB before. You can have an entire userspace in under 500k if you really want to (busybox/uClibc and some shell scripts, statically link busybox to uClibc), though it won't do much other than boot. We sell linux-based 802.11 devices that fit everything (web server, ssh and all) in under 2MB. I have a similar image I've been working on. Do you know of an SSL capable webserver that doesn't need OpenSSL? Apache/mod_ssl is just overkill for a web frontend! 4MB allows me to add things like snmp, captive portals and ad-hoc routing (olsr). Yup :) 8MB of flash is pure luxury. We're currently using Compact Flash cards in ATA adapters, rather than real flash, so space isn't much of an issue (do they even SELL 8MB flash cards anymore?). One of my embedded systems was actually a Dell PC with a CF-IDE adapter in it! (Heck, it even had a hard drive for logging, but I went to great lengths to make sure the system would keep running even if the hard drive completely failed; it would even boot up with a bad HDD!) And then I have this 7 Ethernet, 2 miniPCI ixp425 board with 16MB of flash/64MB of ram here. No idea what I'm gonna do with it yet. :-) Well, I've got 3 webpals sitting around (1MB flash, up to 16MB of RAM, or 64 if you're willing to do a hardware mod), and a General Instruments/Motorola DCT-5000 MIPS based set-top box (that is MINE thank you, not the cable company's) that I need to find something to do with. The DCT-5000 has a LOT of stuff in it (much of which nobody will ever be able to get specs on, at least not before it snows in hell due to the heat death of the universe occuring). My x86 development has mostly been on dual ethernet AMD Elan systems with (up to) 64MB (yes, 64MB) of RAM, a CF slot, and a PC/104 bus (that I need to make a daughterboard up for). Mostly acting as routers (which 64MB lets you do some very cool stateful filtering stuff), but also just in some other weird applications. --MonMotha
[LUAU] FAI bootstrap help
Hi, I've just starting using linux, knoppix to be exact, and I have obtained a dell laptop that needs to be bootstraped for an installation (it has no OS whatsoever). RIght now I'm attempting to use FAI (fully automatic installation)[ http://www.informatik.uni-koeln.de/fai/ ] to get this thing up and running but I'm having some serious problems. Basicly I think the guide, while not outmoded, is not up to date enough to provide the valuable step by step intructions that I require. Please have mercy on me, becaue I AM a n00b. Any help/insight will be apreciated!
Re: [LUAU] Intro
On Aug 11, 2004, at 12:35 AM, MonMotha wrote: Jim Thompson wrote: On Aug 10, 2004, at 10:37 PM, MonMotha wrote: Jim Thompson wrote: the non-MMU parts that made uClinux special are now part of the 2.6 kernel tree. Yes they are, though I haven't had a need to play with it yet as I do mostly ARM and embedded x86 work (well, and work on things that will NEVER run Linux) never say never. :-) OK, port Linux to an 8051 with 256 BYTES of RAM and (at most) 64k of ROM. :-) Ya know, with folks like Cygnal (sorry Silicon Labs) in the business, and Siemens/Infineon with its 32bit ALU in an 8051 clone, how long will it be before we see an 8051 clone that actually could boot linux? And in any case, its straight-forward to interface a IDE drive to an 8051. But, point taken. Still, never say 'never'. Yeah, all those older images that include SSH support (I don't know if any actually do, though I made some that did) all used OpenSSH and therefore had to include OpenSSL. Cost you a LOT of space... Sure, but not all of openssl is needed for openssh. major shrinkage is possible. All those are very old, but demonstrate what kind of space you can actually cram Linux into if you work at it. similar dates even. Hmm! I've seen Linux fit in under 1MB before. You can have an entire userspace in under 500k if you really want to (busybox/uClibc and some shell scripts, statically link busybox to uClibc), though it won't do much other than boot. We sell linux-based 802.11 devices that fit everything (web server, ssh and all) in under 2MB. I have a similar image I've been working on. Do you know of an SSL capable webserver that doesn't need OpenSSL? Apache/mod_ssl is just overkill for a web frontend! Thats pure open source? No. Monthra markets a tiny TLS libary that plugs into goahead. 4MB allows me to add things like snmp, captive portals and ad-hoc routing (olsr). Yup :) right, so when do we start to unwire Oahu? (is there *any* community wireless on the island?) 8MB of flash is pure luxury. We're currently using Compact Flash cards in ATA adapters, rather than real flash, so space isn't much of an issue (do they even SELL 8MB flash cards anymore?). Yes, but these are more expensive than 64MB CF cards. Supply and demand, just as you'll find that 72-pin SIMMs are quite pricey these days. One of my embedded systems was actually a Dell PC with a CF-IDE adapter in it! (Heck, it even had a hard drive for logging, but I went to great lengths to make sure the system would keep running even if the hard drive completely failed; it would even boot up with a bad HDD!) And then I have this 7 Ethernet, 2 miniPCI ixp425 board with 16MB of flash/64MB of ram here. No idea what I'm gonna do with it yet. :-) Well, I've got 3 webpals sitting around (1MB flash, up to 16MB of RAM, or 64 if you're willing to do a hardware mod), and a General Instruments/Motorola DCT-5000 MIPS based set-top box (that is MINE thank you, not the cable company's) that I need to find something to do with. The DCT-5000 has a LOT of stuff in it (much of which nobody will ever be able to get specs on, at least not before it snows in hell due to the heat death of the universe occuring). Didn't this run some Lineo-supplied distribution? My x86 development has mostly been on dual ethernet AMD Elan systems with (up to) 64MB (yes, 64MB) of RAM, a CF slot, and a PC/104 bus (that I need to make a daughterboard up for). Mostly acting as routers (which 64MB lets you do some very cool stateful filtering stuff), but also just in some other weird applications. Elan, ugh. The reason I like the recent VIA embedded parts is their AES/RNG core. Can you spell IPSEC? :-) jim
Re: [LUAU] Intro
OK, port Linux to an 8051 with 256 BYTES of RAM and (at most) 64k of ROM. :-) Ya know, with folks like Cygnal (sorry Silicon Labs) in the business, and Siemens/Infineon with its 32bit ALU in an 8051 clone, how long will it be before we see an 8051 clone that actually could boot linux? And in any case, its straight-forward to interface a IDE drive to an 8051. But, point taken. Still, never say 'never'. Well, I guess MAYBE you could run uCLinux on them, with bank switched RAM... Still that would be one hell of a feat. Actually, the last major project I did involved an 8051 talking to a Linux host (via USB, I'm sure you've heard of the Cypress EZ-USB). Yeah, all those older images that include SSH support (I don't know if any actually do, though I made some that did) all used OpenSSH and therefore had to include OpenSSL. Cost you a LOT of space... Sure, but not all of openssl is needed for openssh. major shrinkage is possible. True, I never tried omitting the parts of OpenSSL that weren't needed for OpenSSH. I've been looking at Dropbear recently anyway. I have a similar image I've been working on. Do you know of an SSL capable webserver that doesn't need OpenSSL? Apache/mod_ssl is just overkill for a web frontend! Thats pure open source? No. Monthra markets a tiny TLS libary that plugs into goahead. Damn. 4MB allows me to add things like snmp, captive portals and ad-hoc routing (olsr). Yup :) right, so when do we start to unwire Oahu? (is there *any* community wireless on the island?) No clue. I guess that both of us being hams, we could go for the worlds longest wifi shot :), but I'm thinking you wouldn't even notice I'm there (not to mention that the tower height required for line of sight from Oahu to Indianapolis would be incredible...might as well use a satellite). ... Yes, but these are more expensive than 64MB CF cards. Supply and demand, just as you'll find that 72-pin SIMMs are quite pricey these days. That's what I figured. Mostly we've been using 32 and 64MB cards. ... Well, I've got 3 webpals sitting around (1MB flash, up to 16MB of RAM, or 64 if you're willing to do a hardware mod), and a General Instruments/Motorola DCT-5000 MIPS based set-top box (that is MINE thank you, not the cable company's) that I need to find something to do with. The DCT-5000 has a LOT of stuff in it (much of which nobody will ever be able to get specs on, at least not before it snows in hell due to the heat death of the universe occuring). Didn't this run some Lineo-supplied distribution? We've actually been working with a former Lineo employee on this. Unfortunately, due to NDAs (and him just plain not rememebring things, also lack of time), we've not gotten far. My x86 development has mostly been on dual ethernet AMD Elan systems with (up to) 64MB (yes, 64MB) of RAM, a CF slot, and a PC/104 bus (that I need to make a daughterboard up for). Mostly acting as routers (which 64MB lets you do some very cool stateful filtering stuff), but also just in some other weird applications. Elan, ugh. The reason I like the recent VIA embedded parts is their AES/RNG core. Can you spell IPSEC? :-) I-P-S-E-C :-) I haven't gotten to play with those parts yet. My current embedded project is far from what most people would probably consider embedded. How much RAM and how fast a processor is needed to effectively run OpenOffice, anyway? :-) jim --MonMotha
[LUAU] Local (Big Island) Job Offering
Alle, Just wanted to let you all know we're trolling for prospects, if anyone is interested. http://jobs.fujitsu.com/jobDetail.jsp?id=1827 Best Regards, Camron Camron W. Fox Hilo Office High Performance Computing Group Fujitsu America, INC. E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Phone: (808) 934-4102 Pager: (808) 934-1290 Cell: (808) 937-5026
Re: [LUAU] Intro
never say never. :-) OK, port Linux to an 8051 with 256 BYTES of RAM and (at most) 64k of ROM. :-) Not quite the same thing, but in a similar vein: http://lng.sourceforge.net/ There are of course many other examples of similar systems running on various 8-bit microprocessors. Yeah, all those older images that include SSH support (I don't know if any actually do, though I made some that did) all used OpenSSH and therefore had to include OpenSSL. Cost you a LOT of space... Why not just strip out the pieces of SSL that openssh needs? OpenSSL is a large library, OpenSSH only uses a fraction of it. Tim N.
Re: [LUAU] Mondo/Mindi expertise needed for HOSEF project
Scott, Call me about Ghost. Bill Musson - Original Message - From: R. Scott Belford [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 1:25 am Subject: [LUAU] Mondo/Mindi expertise needed for HOSEF project HOSEF is in need of someone's help to create disk images of the workstations in our McKinley lab. With the help of Michael Bishop, we have been cleared to offer more classes in the room where we have donated 25 workstations. They are used during the week to run windows lite and a foreign language program, and we use them during the weekends to run debian or to boot from the network. We must be able to restore the master boot record and dual-OS partitions to their initial state after we tear into them during classes. Has anyone gotten comfortable with mondo/mindi over the network, and, if so, do you have time to help at our workshop this Saturday? It looks like systemimager won't quite do what we want it to do, and we can't afford to buy Ghost. --scott ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/luau
Re: [LUAU] HOSEF Talks Shop
What time - Original Message - From: R. Scott Belford [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tuesday, August 10, 2004 10:34 pm Subject: [LUAU] HOSEF Talks Shop Each Wednesday for the foreseeable future, HOSEF is organizing a Shop Talk session for Linux and OSS. Our first go at it will be tomorrow evening at Roundtable Pizza in Kailua. Future Wednesday sessions are scheduled on our calendar, but you are welcome to suggest alternative venues and times. The idea is to meet in town every other week and rotate our other locations between the windward, leeward, and Mililani regions of the island. There is no agenda except to create a networking and socializing opportunity for our community. --scott ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/luau
[LUAU] PHP Class
Has anyone heard back on the PHP class. A friend of mine, and I both want to sign up. I emailed Kevin English, but I haven't heard back yet. Nathan
Re: [LUAU] Intro
On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, MonMotha wrote: The linux kernel requires no libc. Yes. But a kernel alone, a system does not make. The userspace is quite independent of any specific libc, though your libc has to support linux of course. Assuming, of course, you only use POSIX and ANSI API's. A Unix libc provides more than this. Well, at least glibc does. How small can redhat be made anyway? I've got multiple systems running off 8MB of flash (and sometimes I'm lucky with that, my Tuxscreen only has 4MB of flash, though I have since added a 64MB CF card for extra storage). Since our main goal was to reduce risk, we try to accomodate Redhat as much as possible. And we also needed Qt support, which pulled in X. So we needed about 128meg. Although we didn't need all of it. We want to improve on this, of course. --jc -- Jimen Ching (WH6BRR) [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [LUAU] Intro
On Tue, 10 Aug 2004, Jim Thompson wrote: Sure. Lots of people get started this way. If you want an afternoon of me coming in to explain the challenges (my only fee is that the coffee must be good) and pitfalls, just ask. I'll keep you in mind when we get deeper into it. Thanks. --jc -- Jimen Ching (WH6BRR) [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [LUAU] Intro
On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Jim Thompson wrote: On Aug 11, 2004, at 12:35 AM, MonMotha wrote: OK, port Linux to an 8051 with 256 BYTES of RAM and (at most) 64k of ROM. :-) Ya know, with folks like Cygnal (sorry Silicon Labs) in the business, and Siemens/Infineon with its 32bit ALU in an 8051 clone, how long will it be before we see an 8051 clone that actually could boot linux? Is there a requirement for the 8051? I believe the 2.6 kernel supports the H8/300 microcontroller. Granted, the H8/300 is more powerful than the 8051, but it's still a microcontroller. --jc -- Jimen Ching (WH6BRR) [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [LUAU] HOSEF Talks Shop
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What time Sorry. I was trying to drive eyeballs to our somewhat improved site. :-) Roundtable Pizza (Enchanted Lake) 1020J Keolu Drive 6-8:30 p.m. --scott
Re: [LUAU] PHP Class
Nathan A. Keirn wrote: Has anyone heard back on the PHP class. A friend of mine, and I both want to sign up. I emailed Kevin English, but I haven't heard back yet. Nathan Kevin is probably just busy. He, Michael, and HOSEF have been working out the details and the times. It is looking like the classes will begin in September, run for 6 Saturdays, and be taught either at 9 ish or noon. Kevin has graciously agreed to teach the class with HOSEF as we begin to roll out a number of OSS focused sessions for the community. The schedules and topics are being hammered out. We will be offering a lot of classes complementary to the more advanced courses available through PCATT and other institutions. Payment will go to HOSEF to perpetuate our charitable projects, and HOSEF will take care of paying for the class, the instructor, and itself if anything remains. If you have something OSS based that you would either like to teach or to learn, let us know and we'll set it up. --scott
Re: [LUAU] Embedded Linux (was: Intro)
One of my clients recently moved to a new 12 fab and is converting their existing 8 memory chip fab into an OEM foundry. They have purchased a number of IC design houses to boost the demand of their facility, but will always be interested in niche companies. Embedded Linux is an emerging area, perhaps we can chat about that during one of Scott's planned informal gatherings. wayne
Re: [LUAU] Intro
Yes. But a kernel alone, a system does not make. This is the linux kernel we're talking about... They keep moving more and more userland stuff in there :) Since our main goal was to reduce risk, we try to accomodate Redhat as much as possible. And we also needed Qt support, which pulled in X. Why not pull apart the Qt support libs from the graphical stuff? Tim N.
Re: [LUAU] Intro
Jimen Ching wrote: On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Jim Thompson wrote: On Aug 11, 2004, at 12:35 AM, MonMotha wrote: OK, port Linux to an 8051 with 256 BYTES of RAM and (at most) 64k of ROM. :-) Ya know, with folks like Cygnal (sorry Silicon Labs) in the business, and Siemens/Infineon with its 32bit ALU in an 8051 clone, how long will it be before we see an 8051 clone that actually could boot linux? Is there a requirement for the 8051? I believe the 2.6 kernel supports the H8/300 microcontroller. Granted, the H8/300 is more powerful than the 8051, but it's still a microcontroller. --jc I think the idea was that in this case Linux was inappropriate :) I really don't need an oven that runs linux :) As I later mentioned, in this case the microcontroller was actually talking to a linux host. --MonMotha
[LUAU] Free from Novell
http://www.novell.com/community/linux/order.php All of this for free: - SUSE LINUX Standard Server 8.0 (ISO Installation Images) - SUSE LINUX 9.1 Professional (Bootable Installation DVD) - Ximian Desktop 2.0 Evaluation (ISO Image) - Ximian Red Carpet 2.0.2 Evaluation (ISO Image) - Novell Linux Services 1.0 (ISO Image NLS Companion CD) - Novell GroupWise for Linux 6.5.1 - Server, Client Messenger I already ordered and received this and it it great! Nathan A. Keirn
Re: [LUAU] Free from Novell
this is what I got: We appreciate your interest in the Linux Technical Resource Kit, offered by the Novell Customer Communities. At this time we are not accepting any more orders. If you are interested in receiving notice of other forthcoming Linux opportunities from Novell similar to this Linux Technical Resource Kit, please provide your name and e-mail address below. On Wednesday 11 August 2004 10:13 pm, Nathan A. Keirn wrote: http://www.novell.com/community/linux/order.php All of this for free: - SUSE LINUX Standard Server 8.0 (ISO Installation Images) - SUSE LINUX 9.1 Professional (Bootable Installation DVD) - Ximian Desktop 2.0 Evaluation (ISO Image) - Ximian Red Carpet 2.0.2 Evaluation (ISO Image) - Novell Linux Services 1.0 (ISO Image NLS Companion CD) - Novell GroupWise for Linux 6.5.1 - Server, Client Messenger I already ordered and received this and it it great! Nathan A. Keirn ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/luau
