[luau] IMPORTANT - Upcoming List Policy
Without naming names, I have become a bit saddened by the attitudes of the posts on this list. I believe that if everyone keeps a few simple rules in mind, we can raise to a higher standard of post quality, while preventing garbage that otherwise only wastes peoples time in reading. For this purpose, I will be formulating formal list policy soon. The following are basic ideas that will become part of this formal policy. Comments are welcome. 1. No unsubstantiated controversial comments unless you are prepared to back up your claims. Rational discourse is encouraged. Irrational flames are not. 2. No childish name calling - this includes Microsoft bashing. This type of banter really pollutes the signal to noise ratio of any group. It scares people. Really. I will elaborate more tomorrow. 3. If you reply, TRIM YOUR QUOTES down to a bare minimum to maintain context to which you are replying. It makes the list MUCH EASIER to read if everyone cleanly trims quotes. 4. Before you post anything, think to yourself, "Is this worth being delivered to over 250 people and be put into permanent archive forever?" If your answer to yourself is yes, then by all means post. However, do not let this scare you into not posting. (I probably gotta re-word this one, it is somewhat scary and discouraging as-is.) Agree? Disagree? Comments please. (TRIM YOUR QUOTES!) Warren Togami [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [luau] IMPORTANT - Upcoming List Policy
I prefer Internet forums which are wide open and not micro managed. As for flaming M$, have at it. They deserve it. On the other hand I don't think personal attacks on individuals because of their honest opinions and feelings are in order. The delete key works fine on my computer. If the forum becomes to stiff, I would probably unsubscribe. Just for the record, and as an example, I like the extremetech.com forum. http://discuss.extremetech.com/n/main.asp?webtag=extremetech&nav=messages. Wide open, lots of knowledgeable people, freedom to express yourself in a natural, fun, and sometimes humorous manner. Togami wrote: Agree? Disagree? Comments please.
Re: [luau] IMPORTANT - Upcoming List Policy
On Wed, 2002-09-04 at 03:14, Joe Linux wrote: > I prefer Internet forums which are wide open and not micro managed. As > for flaming M$, have at it. They deserve it. On the other hand I don't > think personal attacks on individuals because of their honest opinions > and feelings are in order. The delete key works fine on my computer. > If the forum becomes to stiff, I would probably unsubscribe. Just for > the record, and as an example, I like the extremetech.com forum. > > http://discuss.extremetech.com/n/main.asp?webtag=extremetech&nav=messages. > > Wide open, lots of knowledgeable people, freedom to express yourself in > a natural, fun, and sometimes humorous manner. > Let me put it this way, I wholeheartedly disagree, and I intend on leaving if these things do not improve.
Re: [luau] IMPORTANT - Upcoming List Policy
On 04 Sep 2002 08:04:56 -1000 Warren Togami <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Wed, 2002-09-04 at 03:14, Joe Linux wrote: > > I prefer Internet forums which are wide open and not micro managed. > > As for flaming M$, have at it. They deserve it. On the other hand I > > don't think personal attacks on individuals because of their honest > > opinions and feelings are in order. The delete key works fine on > > my computer. > > If the forum becomes to stiff, I would probably unsubscribe. Just > > for > > the record, and as an example, I like the extremetech.com forum. > > > > http://discuss.extremetech.com/n/main.asp?webtag=extremetech&nav=messages. > > > > Wide open, lots of knowledgeable people, freedom to express yourself > > in a natural, fun, and sometimes humorous manner. > > > > Let me put it this way, I wholeheartedly disagree, and I intend on > leaving if these things do not improve. > Warren, Of course you can take you bat and ball and go home if you want, but I am not sure that would solve much. I have to admit your original post on this matter troubled me a bit and sounded like there might be a potential for unwarrented censorship. My thoughts on the matter are; if this list is to have a set of rules/expected netiquette (and it should), then they should be publicly posted. The list rules should be posted on the web page where one subscribes to the list and a copy should be forwared to all new subscribers once they have confirmed their subscription. What should the rules be? A good start/example might be those used by the silicon valley linux users group and can be found at: http://www.svlug.org/policies/list-policy.shtml Frankly, I am more troubled by the lack of trimming and off topic threads than the unsubstantiated controversial comments. --- Gary 3:11pm up 1 day, 23 min, 4 users, load average: 0.04, 0.06, 0.06
Re: [luau] IMPORTANT - Upcoming List Policy
On Wed, 2002-09-04 at 09:19, Gary Sublett wrote: > > Frankly, I am more troubled by the lack of trimming and off topic > threads than the unsubstantiated controversial comments. > Thank you for your polite suggestion. I will need to look into that later today. I am in agreement that lack of trimming and off topic posts are a problem. Regarding unsubstantiated posts, I do not want to censor anyone. I find it annoying when people make assertions without evidence... but yeah, this shouldn't be a hard rule... perhaps just strongly suggested.
Re: [luau] IMPORTANT - Upcoming List Policy
--- Warren Togami <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Wed, 2002-09-04 at 09:19, Gary Sublett wrote: > > > > Frankly, I am more troubled by the lack of trimming and off topic > > threads than the unsubstantiated controversial comments. > > > > Thank you for your polite suggestion. I will need to look into > that > later today. > > I am in agreement that lack of trimming and off topic posts are a > problem. > > Regarding unsubstantiated posts, I do not want to censor anyone. I > find > it annoying when people make assertions without evidence... but > yeah, > this shouldn't be a hard rule... perhaps just strongly suggested. I agree with the overall ideas of the policy that was posted before, but I think some of it is probably worded too strongly. In my opinion, the lack of trimming is a GLARING problem that has been ongoing with this list (and the previous incarnation of it) as far back as I can recall, clear back to when LUAU had active meetings. It has been brought up probably 3 to 4 times a year, and generally there is improvement, although there are some folks who seem to be chronically lazy about not trimming posts. Regarding the off-topic posts, I think a minor degree of straying is OK if it doesn't mess up the signal-noise ratio too much. Generally it hasn't struck me as being excessive yet, with 1 or 2 minor exceptions. The unsubstantiated bashing and related posts are definately not a good thing, but I really don't think censorship is the answer -- again, though, there seem to be people who take every possible opportunity to answer every question with "that's the big problem with (insert OS or application name here) and you should switch to (their pet application / OS). I think its all well and good to suggest alternatives programs or platforms, but to use cars as an analogy, some people take it to the point of suggesting you go get a Toyota when you are only asking how to change the oil in a Honda. Personally, I have felt that those types of responses are as bad as being off topic, since they're a waste of bandwidth, since it isn't a constructive answer to somebody's legitimate question. If it's not a constructive response, why would you want to send it out to the whole list? Just my 2 cents on the matter -- I guess the bottom line is, a new policy is good, as long as it is an "encouraged" one and not a rigidly enforced one. Useful information, flexibility and fun for all should be the focus of things. Aloha, Rob __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com
Re: [luau] IMPORTANT - Upcoming List Policy
Gary Sublett wrote: Warren, Of course you can take you bat and ball and go home if you want, but I am not sure that would solve much. I have to admit your original post on this matter troubled me a bit and sounded like there might be a potential for unwarrented censorship. I think what Warren was getting at was self-censorship. Basically, try not to incite riots, flame, troll, etc. If you would be justifiably (and I know this is a stretch...) moderated down for it on slashdot, please don't post it. Controversy is OK and encouraged, but blatant flaming is not. My thoughts on the matter are; if this list is to have a set of rules/expected netiquette (and it should), then they should be publicly posted. The list rules should be posted on the web page where one subscribes to the list and a copy should be forwared to all new subscribers once they have confirmed their subscription. Probably a good idea. What should the rules be? A good start/example might be those used by the silicon valley linux users group and can be found at: http://www.svlug.org/policies/list-policy.shtml Frankly, I am more troubled by the lack of trimming and off topic threads than the unsubstantiated controversial comments. As am I, but unsubstantiated flaming and trolling has a tendency to get out of control if taken too lightly. --- Gary --MonMotha
Re: [luau] IMPORTANT - Upcoming List Policy
Aloha, > 2. No childish name calling - this includes Microsoft bashing. This > type of banter really pollutes the signal to noise ratio of any group. > It scares people. Really. I will elaborate more tomorrow. I fully agree with all of these points, except for #2. Micro$oft bashing is a time-honoured and loved aspect of any Linux Users Group. It's what gives us our character! :) cheers, charles (writing from a Winblows machine)
Re: [luau] IMPORTANT - Upcoming List Policy
On Wed, 2002-09-04 at 10:22, Robert Green wrote: > I agree with the overall ideas of the policy that was posted before, > but I think some of it is probably worded too strongly. Yes, that was my mistake. I sent it off a bit too hastily. > > In my opinion, the lack of trimming is a GLARING problem that has > been ongoing with this list (and the previous incarnation of it) as > far back as I can recall, clear back to when LUAU had active > meetings. It has been brought up probably 3 to 4 times a year, and > generally there is improvement, although there are some folks who > seem to be chronically lazy about not trimming posts. > Totally in agreement here. I would be 500% happier if people would properly trim quotes. [SNIP] > I think its all well and good to suggest alternatives programs or > platforms, but to use cars as an analogy, some people take it to the > point of suggesting you go get a Toyota when you are only asking how > to change the oil in a Honda. Personally, I have felt that those > types of responses are as bad as being off topic, since they're a > waste of bandwidth, since it isn't a constructive answer to > somebody's legitimate question. If it's not a constructive response, > why would you want to send it out to the whole list? Nice analogy, makes good sense. (I'm sticking to Chevy.) > > Just my 2 cents on the matter -- I guess the bottom line is, a new > policy is good, as long as it is an "encouraged" one and not a > rigidly enforced one. Useful information, flexibility and fun for all > should be the focus of things. > Agreed, whatever policy comes out of this, it will be encouraged and not rigidly enforced. Would anyone object to polite form letters sent directly to people, reminding them about list etiquette? Warren
Re: [luau] IMPORTANT - Upcoming List Policy
On Wed, 4 Sep 2002 13:33:38 -1000, [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: > I fully agree with all of these points, except for #2. Micro$oft > bashing is a time-honoured and loved aspect of any Linux Users Group. > It's what gives us our character! :) > > cheers, > charles (writing from a Winblows machine) In my opinion, Microsoft bashing is alright to a certain extent. For example, I'm sure you remember back in your childhood days when your friends made up harsh nicknames for other people, or even against yourself, all in the name of fun. It's comical at first, but after a while it gets quite irritating and annoying. Someone who constantly utters these nicknames now have a close-minded view of that person. As Warren stated, it does scare some people even if you meant no harm. Bashing also gives people a negative connotation of you and those affiliated with you, such as MPLUG. If this is the "character" that you want for this group, then please continue the bashing. Just because all other Linux User Groups do it, does that make it right? With the Linux for Schools project successfully underway, more and more educators and non-techies are joining this mailing list. The self-censorship that MonMotha mentioned would be ideal, and possibly crucial, to keep these people interested in the Open Source community. Wouldn't they rather trust a group of individuals who can express their ideas and opinions eloquently? Speaking of the car analogy, there seems to be this big feud between Ford and Chevrolet owners on the mainland. Both sides conjure up nasty nicknames, bumper stickers, and other miscellaneous propaganda against the other. It makes you wonder if people ever grow up. Just my two cents plus tax :] -elayne
Re: [luau] IMPORTANT - Upcoming List Policy
On 4 Sep 2002, Warren Togami wrote: >1. No unsubstantiated controversial comments unless you are prepared to >back up your claims. Rational discourse is encouraged. Irrational >flames are not. Heh...Why not require peace on earth and good will towards man. ;-) I think trimming the qoutes is the one requirement that should be imposed. As for MS bashing and other controversial topics, I rather like it. Of course, those things will never go away. I've been reading newsgroups with lots of flamewars for a long time. One thing I've learned is that when a bunch of knowledgable people enter a flame war, a person can extract a lot of knowledge from it. Sometimes, a good debate livens up a discussion. Of course, I am always against personal attacks and name calling. When someone is reduced to this tactic in a flame war, it means this person is not able to defend their position and basically lost. Anyone who has entered a flame war and survived, can spot this with ease and not fall into such mud slinging. Recognize it, call the person on it, and then stop. Of course, it is hard to recognize if you don't read flame wars often. ;-) Lastly, I am against any censorship. A while back, there was a BBS called Flex. On this BBS, there were 3 discussion boards dedicated to nothing but flame wars. The SysOp's philosophy was that no one should be censored for their opinions. And when two person's opinions are in stark contrast, flame wars will ensue. Though, if I didn't like the topic of the dabate, I always ignored it and go back a week later for another topic. I believe other people frequent that BBS for the same reason I did. Some people actually like this stuff. ;-) Perhaps specialized topics like linux for schools does not belong in a general purpose mailing list like Luau. I believe the idea of censorship came up in the past and was shot down. Of course, videl is your server and no one can force you to host a list you don't like. --jc -- Jimen Ching (WH6BRR) [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [luau] IMPORTANT - Upcoming List Policy
Jimen Ching wrote: Perhaps specialized topics like linux for schools does not belong in a general purpose mailing list like Luau. I believe the idea of censorship came up in the past and was shot down. Of course, videl is your server and no one can force you to host a list you don't like. --jc Maybe the problem here is that it's too much of a one man show. I like the idea of moving the Linux for Schools to a separate list. Since I belong to the "CLUE" (linux list) too, some of these issues were debated there also, but the difference seem to be that there was no one person who really dominated the group. In the end, it' was business as usual. I like opinions, and have no objection to a person expressing their own feelings, beliefs, and thoughts. I enjoy controversy. What I detest is persons who impose their own personal feelings, and beliefs on others. They do it a certain way; and therefore, they believe everyone should do it the same way. Then they go on to impose their way on everyone else. I always tried to trim my posts going back to the original Luau list, and suggested that people do it at that time. At that time some posts were literally almost miles long because every response to an original question continued to be included at the bottom of an additional response. However, sometimes it helps to have the complete thought of the particular person and idea or question you are responding to. Sometimes on this list, even though trying to remember to trim my responses, I accidentally sent a message without trimming and then was jumped on, being accused of never trimming my posts which in fact wasn't true at all. This seem to happen more often than not when the person actually didn't like the ideas or opinions I had expressed. So instead of responding to the idea, they nit picked on issues like "trimming." Basically I believe in a live and let live policy, but to be honest and probably overly blunt, that are certain cultures in Hawaii who just can't accept that, to the point of not even knowing the extent they impose their particular view, life style, sense of humor, ( or lack thereof) on the lives of others. It's not like they are doing a thing a certain way and teaching by example. Rather they blatantly force others into their way, and are hyper critical of others if it isn't done their way. These are just my opinions, and of course anyone is free to do, think, and act any way they want. In other words, by expressing these opinions, I'm in no way saying you should do what I do, or believe the way I do. I'm only asking for the freedom to just be myself, and be the way I am, because that's how I am.
Re: [luau] IMPORTANT - Upcoming List Policy
On Thu, 2002-09-05 at 02:57, Joe Linux wrote: > Maybe the problem here is that it's too much of a one man show. [SNIP] > > I like opinions, and have no objection to a person expressing their own > feelings, beliefs, and thoughts. I enjoy controversy. What I detest is > persons who impose their own personal feelings, and beliefs on others. > They do it a certain way; and therefore, they believe everyone should > do it the same way. Then they go on to impose their way on everyone else. > > I always tried to trim my posts going back to the original Luau list, > and suggested that people do it at that time. At that time some posts > were literally almost miles long because every response to an original > question continued to be included at the bottom of an additional > response. However, sometimes it helps to have the complete thought of > the particular person and idea or question you are responding to. > I am offended that you now try to make yourself look to be the victim and especially saying that the "one man show" (implying me) is to blame. For a while now I thought you had stopped with posts that that in my opinion were annoying. Then now you assume that I was talking about you when I said "not mentioning any names". No, in fact I wasn't talking about you. I was more concerned about the list as a whole. You start to raise accusations... Forget it, you aren't worth my time... At first I felt bad about asking you politely about these issues because you were gracious in donating one of the 60GB hard drives currently in Videl, but now I realize it is a complete waste of my time to respond to you. I should send you a check for $100 just so I don't feel that I owe you anything. Please e-mail me your mailing address so I can send you the check. I wont censor you, but I'm thinking about adding you to my personal spam filter. Sorry, Warren To everyone else: Yes I am being irrational. I cannot deal with George. This is a complete waste of my time.
Re: [luau] IMPORTANT - Upcoming List Policy
I thought the issue here was to discourage flaming. I didn't mention any names in my post and generally don't flame individuals. In general terms, it's difficult to be all, and do all. Persons who attempt this often become overly stressed out, irritable, and more often than not, irrational. I'm actually not in Hawaii right now, but I note that the Luau group seems to have folded before because people couldn't get along, and I wasn't there, and and had nothing to do with it. This group is actually one of the splinter groups. I actually joined both subsequent groups. I do know the Denver group has been much more stable. It has mostly highly technical fully employed IT administrators as members. The presentations are highly organized and complete with well prepared slide shows, and accompanying documentation. Presentations have been given by Silicon Graphics employees, CEO's of mass storage device companies, professional software engineers and so on. I can never remember the same individual giving a presentation. Each month it seems to be something different with a new topic and a new face. The presentations are technical, but as often as not, contain a good bit of humor. As for the elected president, he is very easy going, quite likable, and an IT professional in the brokerage industry. I haven't seen or heard of anyone calling each other names, or saying they can't deal with one another. In general terms, any organization is much stronger when there is opportunity for the complete participation of the members. Obviously that includes the ability to freely express their own ideas. I can assure you I have never asked for any special favors or dispensation from this group although I did eat a big chunk of a community Subway sandwich one time. It's interesting that some people think Linux users must fit into a certain "mold." In fact I have always found it curious that the "open source" community has tended to be less than open when it came to the free expression of ideas. This forum isn't unique in that regard. For the record, the disk drive was donated to Mid Pacific Institute, not you. We actually have a letter from them indicating they received it. As to how it was exactly used by them I can't say. The reason I donated the drive was to help promote open source, not any one individual. Furthermore my son goes to Mid Pacific Institute as well, and I was very pleased that Mid Pacific had an open source initiative. Warren Togami wrote: I wont censor you, but I'm thinking about adding you to my personal spam filter. To everyone else: Yes I am being irrational. I cannot deal with George. This is a complete waste of my time. If things are a waste of a person's time, then they probably shouldn't deal with it, particularly if it's around 4:00 AM in their own time zone.
Re: [luau] IMPORTANT - Upcoming List Policy
> If this is the "character" that > you want for this group, then please continue the bashing. Just > because all other Linux User Groups do it, does that make it right? I consider a local user mailing list to be from the shallow trenches, with usenet, irc to be the deeper holes and many web sites to be above ground. Keeping that in mind, there are places out there that will fit anyones level of comfort with the topic discussions and the feedback they can offer. As a general rule, the easier and faster that feedback or two-way communication can occur, the "rougher" the forum becomes. Consider Hawaii political views. You can read official press releases, newspaper articles, editorial sections, read hawaii.politics. on usenet, or meet weekly in the hills. Each has its own character and each has its own interpetation of the subjects. The level or type of content YOU consider unacceptable or "childish" is strictly up to you. > With the Linux for Schools project successfully underway, more and more > educators and non-techies are joining this mailing list. The > self-censorship that MonMotha mentioned would be ideal, and possibly > crucial, to keep these people interested in the Open Source community. > Wouldn't they rather trust a group of individuals who can express their > ideas and opinions eloquently? I agree that LUAU mailing list may not be the place for the person not really interested with the technical aspects of Linux. That's what web pages, weekly mailings, MODERATED lists, and marketing departments are for. I don't think that this was ever the primary goal here. If the list is going this route it would be a change from what it has been for the past 5 years. Not that change is bad but it would not be the same environment as it has been. I simply ignore topics or users that I have no interest in. I think what Warren and every single person involved working with the community is nothing short of outstanding. I view the mailing list as the more technical background and discussion of these ideas and Linux in general, not the front door for this effort. Just my .02
Re: [luau] IMPORTANT - Upcoming List Policy
On Thursday 05 September 2002 03:59 am, Warren Togami wrote: > [SNIP] > > I am offended that you now try to make yourself look to be the victim > and especially saying that the "one man show" (implying me) is to blame. > > For a while now I thought you had stopped with posts that that in my > opinion were annoying. Then now you assume that I was talking about you > when I said "not mentioning any names". No, in fact I wasn't talking > about you. I was more concerned about the list as a whole. You start > to raise accusations... > > Forget it, you aren't worth my time... It is now time to cool it. Period. We live in America where we are entitled to express ourselves. I feel like the list maintains a very high tone of discussion. The few digressions into "flames" are shortlived and rather innocent. Without an official policy, Warren, you do make yourself appear to be the cop when you are annoyed. This behaviour does not serve you well. For the record, this came up months ago. I offered to write a list guideline; you refused the offer because you wanted to do it alone. We need a list policy. Just a basic one. Trimming quotes 101 needs to be included. What is and is not a flame and how to avoid it. Perhaps we need a policy for educating someone when they make a mistake. Example: I use debian on my ibook. Debian rocks. It is the best linux distribution. It makes windows look like this is a worthless post. I use debian on my ibook. While it was a struggle at first, I love the community support. Ap-get is such an intuitive interface. I wish that ... strong-willed, but at least there is a reason for why I feel this way. The joke posted the other day about Microsoft code was funny. It was a joke to me. I did not consider it a flame. I realize, though, that any time you talk bad about someone/something else, wise folks wonder what you are hiding about yourself. Nonetheless, jokes are okay. Hoala posted why bsd was better than linux once; it was very funny. The response to the joke post defending Microsoft was impassioned, but well-reasoned. It went into the apci specs or whatever they are. I learned a little. Newcomers to the list were exposed to some passionate thinking, but there are no trolls in our group. I love opinions. I think the list should encourage superlatives like such and such is the best. The list should require that reaons be included with superlatives, though. Doing this endears readers to your way of thinking. > > At first I felt bad about asking you politely about these issues because > you were gracious in donating one of the 60GB hard drives currently in > Videl, but now I realize it is a complete waste of my time to respond to > you. I should send you a check for $100 just so I don't feel that I owe > you anything. Please e-mail me your mailing address so I can send you > the check. This statement is riddled with flames. It burns me to read it. I personally gave LUAU a $200 Western Digital drive that many of you pull data from when accessing videl. This does not entitle me to anything. On the one hand, I am bothered that Warren no longer mirrors debian like I asked (I was given a choice with the donation as to what I wanted mirrored) However, I donated the drive and it is not my place to micromanage someone else's decision. If I didn't want someone deciding for me, I could have kept my donation. The point, you give something of yourself when you join. You give up the right to control everyone because you are part of a group. You give up the right to say whatever you want, no matter how offensive, because you are part of a group. > > I wont censor you, but I'm thinking about adding you to my personal spam > filter. go for it, please. > > Sorry, > Warren > > > To everyone else: Yes I am being irrational. I cannot deal with > George. This is a complete waste of my time. Then please censor him in your own email account. It is not fair for us to be exposed to your personal grievances with Joe. He, as a member of our community, is free to be judged by the other members of the community absent the bias of any one person. scott lastly-the solution to this growing pain is not to quit the group or splinter our small island with even more mailing lists about linux. quitting because we don't like something is not how communities grow stronger.
Re: [luau] IMPORTANT - Upcoming List Policy
All very well put (for self explanatory reasons, and I'm choosing not to trim this response.) R. Scott Belford wrote: On Thursday 05 September 2002 03:59 am, Warren Togami wrote: [SNIP] I am offended that you now try to make yourself look to be the victimand especially saying that the "one man show" (implying me) is to blame.For a while now I thought you had stopped with posts that that in myopinion were annoying. Then now you assume that I was talking about youwhen I said "not mentioning any names". No, in fact I wasn't talkingabout you. I was more concerned about the list as a whole. You startto raise accusations...Forget it, you aren't worth my time... It is now time to cool it. Period. We live in America where we are entitled to express ourselves. I feel like the list maintains a very high tone of discussion. The few digressions into "flames" are shortlived and rather innocent. Without an official policy, Warren, you do make yourself appear to be the cop when you are annoyed. This behaviour does not serve you well. For the record, this came up months ago. I offered to write a list guideline; you refused the offer because you wanted to do it alone.We need a list policy. Just a basic one. Trimming quotes 101 needs to be included. What is and is not a flame and how to avoid it. Perhaps we need a policy for educating someone when they make a mistake. Example:I use debian on my ibook. Debian rocks. It is the best linux distribution. It makes windows look likethis is a worthless post.I use debian on my ibook. Wh ile it was a struggle at first, I love the community support. Ap-get is such an intuitive interface. I wish that ...strong-willed, but at least there is a reason for why I feel this way.The joke posted the other day about Microsoft code was funny. It was a joke to me. I did not consider it a flame. I realize, though, that any time you talk bad about someone/something else, wise folks wonder what you are hiding about yourself. Nonetheless, jokes are okay. Hoala posted why bsd was better than linux once; it was very funny.The response to the joke post defending Microsoft was impassioned, but well-reasoned. It went into the apci specs or whatever they are. I learned a little. Newcomers to the list were exposed to some passionate thinking, but there are no trolls in our group.I love opinions. I think the list should encourage superlatives like such and such is the best. The list should require that re aons be included with superlatives, though. Doing this endears readers to your way of thinking. At first I felt bad about asking you politely about these issues becauseyou were gracious in donating one of the 60GB hard drives currently inVidel, but now I realize it is a complete waste of my time to respond toyou. I should send you a check for $100 just so I don't feel that I oweyou anything. Please e-mail me your mailing address so I can send youthe check. This statement is riddled with flames. It burns me to read it. I personally gave LUAU a $200 Western Digital drive that many of you pull data from when accessing videl. This does not entitle me to anything. On the one hand, I am bothered that Warren no longer mirrors debian like I asked (I was given a choice with the donation as to what I wanted mirrored) However, I donated the drive and it is not my place to micromanage someone else's decision. If I didn't want someone deciding for me, I could have kept my donation.The point, you give something of yourself when you join. You give up the right to control everyone because you are part of a group. You give up the right to say whatever you want, no matter how offensive, because you are part of a group. I wont censor you, but I'm thinking about adding you to my personal spamfilter. go for it, please. Sorry,WarrenTo everyone else: Yes I am being irrational. I cannot deal withGeorge. This is a complete waste of my time. Then please censor him in your own email account. It is not fair for us to be exposed to your personal grievances with Joe. He, as a member of our community, is free to be judged by the other members of the community absent the bias of any one person.scottlastly-the solution to this growing pain is not to quit the group or splinter our small island with even more mailing lists about linux. quitting because we don't like something is not how communities grow stronger.___LUAU mailing list[EMAIL PROTECTED]http://videl.ics.hawaii.edu/mailman/listinfo/luau
Re: [luau] IMPORTANT - Upcoming List Policy
Okay, I was wrong in publicly blasting George on the list. You are right, everyone has their right to make their own opinion, and I have no right to impose anything upon anyone. Although I personally feel offended by what has been said, I realize that this is counterproductive to argue. I apologize for further inflaming the discussion, and I am dropping this. If this occurs again, I will simply ignore it. As for list policy, it seems that we can all at least agree upon the trimming quotes part. The other points could possibly be condensed to "common sense" and "respect". No rules should be enforced strictly, only with polite and friendly reminders. I think this would work, and if not we can always adjust again. Is this basic idea acceptable to everyone?
Re: [luau] IMPORTANT - Upcoming List Policy
> With the Linux for Schools project successfully underway, more and more > educators and non-techies are joining this mailing list. The > self-censorship that MonMotha mentioned would be ideal, and possibly > crucial, to keep these people interested in the Open Source community. > Wouldn't they rather trust a group of individuals who can express their > ideas and opinions eloquently? I will not support efforts to water down geek culture for the sake of keeping appearances with the bourgeois. Tactically speaking, an informal prohibition against some of the 'baser' elements of geek language and culture might be a good way to attract and retain total newbies. Strategically however, it will be a bad move. Geek culture and jargon are a part of our identity as hackers -- we should never allow our language and actions to be constrained within a set of words and behaviours deemed acceptable by some close-minded suits (And at the same token, we shouldn't force the newbies to speak our language). A starched list of self-censored emails will end up as being repellant to geeks who have already been exposed to the global Free Software hacking culture. This may or may not seem trivial - but I feel that this is an important fact that needs to be taken into consideration. I, for one, know that a young geek would rather spend time communicating about hackish things and plugging into a rad international community, than immersing themselves into a business-friendly medium with imperatives to increase market share for a certain category of software 'products'. It's about being understanding and open-minded. And if new list-members can't fight the mind-fuck and broaden their horizons to accept another culture's idiosyncrasies, they might need to be subscribed elsewhere. We have mailman, it's not that hard to add another list. Mahalo and thanks for the thoughtful response, charles pgpAUf9QEhBDD.pgp Description: PGP signature
RE: [luau] IMPORTANT - Upcoming List Policy
Charles, Good Point :) Very well put :) Brian Brian Low Security X 1515 Nuuanu Ave. #555 Honolulu, HI 96817 Phone: (808) 371-3571 E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2002 12:19 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [luau] IMPORTANT - Upcoming List Policy > With the Linux for Schools project successfully underway, more and more > educators and non-techies are joining this mailing list. The > self-censorship that MonMotha mentioned would be ideal, and possibly > crucial, to keep these people interested in the Open Source community. > Wouldn't they rather trust a group of individuals who can express their > ideas and opinions eloquently? I will not support efforts to water down geek culture for the sake of keeping appearances with the bourgeois. Tactically speaking, an informal prohibition against some of the 'baser' elements of geek language and culture might be a good way to attract and retain total newbies. Strategically however, it will be a bad move. Geek culture and jargon are a part of our identity as hackers -- we should never allow our language and actions to be constrained within a set of words and behaviours deemed acceptable by some close-minded suits (And at the same token, we shouldn't force the newbies to speak our language). A starched list of self-censored emails will end up as being repellant to geeks who have already been exposed to the global Free Software hacking culture. This may or may not seem trivial - but I feel that this is an important fact that needs to be taken into consideration. I, for one, know that a young geek would rather spend time communicating about hackish things and plugging into a rad international community, than immersing themselves into a business-friendly medium with imperatives to increase market share for a certain category of software 'products'. It's about being understanding and open-minded. And if new list-members can't fight the mind-fuck and broaden their horizons to accept another culture's idiosyncrasies, they might need to be subscribed elsewhere. We have mailman, it's not that hard to add another list. Mahalo and thanks for the thoughtful response, charles
Re: [luau] IMPORTANT - Upcoming List Policy
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: With the Linux for Schools project successfully underway, more and more educators and non-techies are joining this mailing list. The self-censorship that MonMotha mentioned would be ideal, and possibly crucial, to keep these people interested in the Open Source community. Wouldn't they rather trust a group of individuals who can express their ideas and opinions eloquently? I will not support efforts to water down geek culture for the sake of keeping appearances with the bourgeois. Tactically speaking, an informal prohibition against some of the 'baser' elements of geek language and culture might be a good way to attract and retain total newbies. Agreed. Subtle and humorous MS bashing is a big part of being in the Linux crowd. It should be continued. However, mindless zealotism is bad, on both sides of the fence. The OSS people need to watch their M$ (see, there it is) bashing to make sure it doesn't cross the line from funny or subtle to flat out trolling. The Windows advocates, who do have some good points, need to do the same. This applies to basically any "holy war" (vi vs. emacs, KDE vs. GNOME, etc). Strategically however, it will be a bad move. Geek culture and jargon are a part of our identity as hackers -- we should never allow our language and actions to be constrained within a set of words and behaviours deemed acceptable by some close-minded suits (And at the same token, we shouldn't force the newbies to speak our language). Agreed. Gotta love everything2's jargon database. A starched list of self-censored emails will end up as being repellant to geeks who have already been exposed to the global Free Software hacking culture. This may or may not seem trivial - but I feel that this is an important fact that needs to be taken into consideration. I, for one, know that a young geek would rather spend time communicating about hackish things and plugging into a rad international community, than immersing themselves into a business-friendly medium with imperatives to increase market share for a certain category of software 'products'. I don't think that's what the idea is. The idea for the "self-censorship" is to make sure we don't post blatant trolls or inflamatory comments. Nobody likes to page through archives only to see bunches of trolls and mindless zealotism. This isn't to say that this is a big problem on the list. Occasionally it happens, but that's definately not the norm on this list. Hopefully we can keep it that way. It's about being understanding and open-minded. And if new list-members can't fight the mind-fuck and broaden their horizons to accept another culture's idiosyncrasies, they might need to be subscribed elsewhere. By the same token, you don't want to "scare off" the newbies. We have mailman, it's not that hard to add another list. Mahalo and thanks for the thoughtful response, charles --MonMotha P.S. Good to see another person who uses PGP :) I've been using it to sign my firewalls for a while, but just recently got around to setting up Enigmail to use it with mail. pgpPphP3oVDjj.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [luau] IMPORTANT - Upcoming List Policy
On Thu, 5 Sep 2002 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >I will not support efforts to water down geek culture for the sake of >keeping appearances with the bourgeois. Tactically speaking, an informal >prohibition against some of the 'baser' elements of geek language and >culture might be a good way to attract and retain total newbies. I agree that there should be a forum where 'geek' culture can express themselves without fear. But it all depends on the goals. >Strategically however, it will be a bad move. If the Luau list is going to be used as the Linux For Schools discussion list, then I am reminded of the honey vs. vinegar saying. There is a target audience for this project, and they ARE NOT the 'geek' culture. It would be very sad if the Linux for Schools project failed because it was associated with a mailing list where 'geek' culture alienated the that niche group. I don't think this has happened yet. I would prefer to avoid this situation than to have this group of people leave in disgust. --jc -- Jimen Ching (WH6BRR) [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [luau] IMPORTANT - Upcoming List Policy
Perhaps the best idea would be to have a separate list centered around the Linux for Schools project, particularly for the non-geek types? --- Jimen Ching <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Thu, 5 Sep 2002 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > >I will not support efforts to water down geek culture for the sake > of > > I agree that there should be a forum where 'geek' culture can > express > themselves without fear. But it all depends on the goals. > > >Strategically however, it will be a bad move. > > If the Luau list is going to be used as the Linux For Schools > discussion > list, then I am reminded of the honey vs. vinegar saying. There is > a > target audience for this project, and they ARE NOT the 'geek' > culture. __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com
Re: [luau] IMPORTANT - Upcoming List Policy
It seems to me that so far there has been a great mixture of basic and advanced discussions. Some things are over my head, and some things are under it. This seems a great way to know where one's head is. Hopefully there will continue to be many newcomers to the list totally intimidated by linux. Surely someone will always ask where the linuxinstall.exe file is. It will be great when Monmotha and others discuss advanced iptable scripts. I look forward to being confused when Ray entertains a complicated programming question. I plan to be perplexed by the subtleties that come with any culture. This has been an exceedingly civil group - a tone that is set well by Warren and the rest of you. This is a linux mailing list. There are so many types of linux users that I hope they/we are always welcome to post as everyone always has - honestly and with civility - regardless of the complication or depth of geekness. The more I am confused and blown away, the more certain I become that I have more to learn. What better place to discover this than within an evolving and learning linux community.(?) Every "newbie" learns and grows. If the newcomers are educators targeted by our LTSP for schools project, don't we think that these professionals know something about the learning process. No need for watering down here. The eventual Upcoming List Policy will not need to say much. No more than a few intellectual objectives you all have and the means by which a group member can help to achieve them. I would personally want a method or protocol to exist that would inform me if I misbehaved. Perhaps a future steering committee member would do that on the rare occassions required. Basically, all comments should be invited by any means possible. scott
Re: [luau] IMPORTANT - Upcoming List Policy
You don't see me often on the list but I read it religiously. I have to say though the past few days have made me wonder about the maturity of those who contribute regularly. I have my gripes and complaints as much as the next guy but come on. The contributions of the past couple of days make the contributors to this list look like squabbling school girls. Let all get a life and get down to improving the standing of open source computing in Hawaii. I am all for having fun but I would really like to see us taken seriously and not thought of as a bunch of bickering amateurs. Just my 2 cents. Jeff Zidek
RE: [luau] IMPORTANT - Upcoming List Policy
--MonMotha P.S. Good to see another person who uses PGP :) I've been using it to sign my firewalls for a while, but just recently got around to setting up Enigmail to use it with mail. + Do you mean that attachment? (.dat file) What is it used for? I've seen this before and you just stirred some interest. Please inform. Thanks. Randall
Re: [luau] IMPORTANT - Upcoming List Policy
I believe the so called list policy should actually contain a mission statement in preference to a set of rules and regulations. R. Scott Belford wrote: The eventual Upcoming List Policy will not need to say much. No more than a few intellectual objectives you all have and the means by which a group member can help to achieve them. I would personally want a method or protocol to exist that would inform me if I misbehaved. Perhaps a future steering committee member would do that on the rare occassions required. Basically, all comments should be invited by any means possible.
Re: [luau] IMPORTANT - Upcoming List Policy
The basic idea behind the gpg checksum in an email is that its a code that uniquely distinguishes mon motha. If you go into your mail client and set the from line to "MonMotha" and throw his email address in there, there's no other way to verify that its actually from him. With a little big of hacking, I could get my email to even say that its originating from his IP address. The things I don't understand about the gpg is 1. who actually checks them 2. What's to keep me from copying yours and throwing it in my mails? -Eric Hattemer - Original Message - From: "Randall Oshita" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, September 06, 2002 2:08 AM Subject: RE: [luau] IMPORTANT - Upcoming List Policy > > --MonMotha > > P.S. Good to see another person who uses PGP :) I've been using it to > sign my firewalls for a while, but just recently got around to setting > up Enigmail to use it with mail. > > > + > > Do you mean that attachment? (.dat file) > > What is it used for? I've seen this before and you just stirred some > interest. > Please inform. > > Thanks. > > Randall > > > ___ > LUAU mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://videl.ics.hawaii.edu/mailman/listinfo/luau > >
Re: [luau] IMPORTANT - Upcoming List Policy
Randall Oshita wrote: --MonMotha P.S. Good to see another person who uses PGP :) I've been using it to sign my firewalls for a while, but just recently got around to setting up Enigmail to use it with mail. + Do you mean that attachment? (.dat file) What is it used for? I've seen this before and you just stirred some interest. Please inform. Thanks. Randall In theory it shouldn't show up as an attachment. It's inlined with MIME, but the mailer shouldn't display it (but can see it if it's PGP enabled). I know Mozilla doesn't normally show it as an attachment (though Enigmail sees the signature), but I'm not sure about Outlook (which you would appear to use). The MIME description does NOT give it a file name, so if it's showing up as a file Outlook is making things up again :) I'm not sure if you're familiar with PGP, but the GPG page (GNU Privacy Guard, an OpenPGP implementation) has a lot of juicy info. --MonMotha pgpepEae9eeMb.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [luau] IMPORTANT - Upcoming List Policy
Joe Linux wrote: I believe the so called list policy should actually contain a mission statement in preference to a set of rules and regulations. Agreed. There shouldn't be any hard rules per se. Obviously don't go posting your cursing fit because your SO just dumped you to the list. That's both offtopic and uncalled for, however there are similar things that may fall into a gray area. For example, you may be upset because you lost your job (for whatever reason), so you're asking if there are any Linux jobs in the area. A little emotion would be expected in the post, but you probably shouldn't let it get out of hand. This brings us back to the "self-censorship" thing. Basically, if you feel that your post will contribute to the objective of the list, post it. If it will accomplish nothing and just incite flames, it's probably a better idea to keep it to yourself. --MonMotha pgplQTkMYDOyQ.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [luau] IMPORTANT - Upcoming List Policy
Yeah, basically, OE takes the text of a mail created in mutt of signed with gpg, and puts it in a text file. Then the GPG goes into a dat file. Both have random file names. ATT# filenames. Its annoying that OE does not read the .txt file inline like all the linux mail programs, but obviously I can't complain since I'm using windows to read a linux mailing list. -Eric Hattemer - Original Message - From: "MonMotha" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, September 06, 2002 2:33 PM Subject: Re: [luau] IMPORTANT - Upcoming List Policy blank as far as OE is concerned :)
Re: [luau] IMPORTANT - Upcoming List Policy
On 9/6/2002 11:20 Eric Hattemer wrote: > The basic idea behind the gpg checksum in an email is that its a code that > uniquely distinguishes mon motha. If you go into your mail client and set > the from line to "MonMotha" and throw his email address in there, there's no > other way to verify that its actually from him. With a little big of > hacking, I could get my email to even say that its originating from his IP > address. The things I don't understand about the gpg is > > 1. who actually checks them > 2. What's to keep me from copying yours and throwing it in my mails? > The GPG signature verifies not only that the message is from a specific 'key holder' but also that the message has not changed or been modified in any way. Copying someones message signature and pasting it into another message will do nothing for verifying the message has not been changed and will always show as a bad signature. The way it works is that the entire message (between the begin and end marks) is fed through a hash function and the digest is encrypted as the signature along with some identifying information. When the signature is checked, the message is again sent through the hash function and the oputted digest is checked against the encrypted version. If they are identical, the signature is good, otherwise not... I always check signatures, by the way... -- *Jim McQueeney <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> *** ** PGP/GPG ** RSA: 0x45A3FB5D * Keys *** DH.: 0xA82248FD * * DH.: 0x41B6F689 *
Re: [luau] IMPORTANT - Upcoming List Policy
Jim McQueeney wrote: I always check signatures, by the way... Who gave you my public key? It shouldn't be on the keyservers... --MonMotha pgpPnLMkG8Ea0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [luau] IMPORTANT - Upcoming List Policy
On 9/6/2002 12:29 MonMotha wrote: > Jim McQueeney wrote: > >> I always check signatures, by the way... >> > > Who gave you my public key? It shouldn't be on the keyservers... > > > --MonMotha No one gave me your public key, and you're correct, it doesn't appear to be on the key servers. However, checking a signature doesn't imply that the check is *always* sucessful. In your case it wasn't because I lacked your public key... -- *Jim McQueeney <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> *** ** PGP/GPG ** RSA: 0x45A3FB5D * Keys *** DH.: 0xA82248FD * * DH.: 0x41B6F689 *
Re: [luau] IMPORTANT - Upcoming List Policy
Jim McQueeney wrote: No one gave me your public key, and you're correct, it doesn't appear to be on the key servers. However, checking a signature doesn't imply that the check is *always* sucessful. In your case it wasn't because I lacked your public key... You want it? :) --MonMotha pgpzjVnKAuhUQ.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [luau] IMPORTANT - Upcoming List Policy
On 9/6/2002 13:01 MonMotha wrote: > Jim McQueeney wrote: > >> No one gave me your public key, and you're correct, it doesn't appear to >> be on the key servers. However, checking a signature doesn't imply that >> the check is *always* sucessful. In your case it wasn't because I lacked >> your public key... >> > > You want it? :) > > --MonMotha Sure, I collect keys from famous 'characters' like you ;^D. Either send it on or tell me where I can download it... Mahalo! -- *Jim McQueeney <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> *** ** PGP/GPG ** RSA: 0x45A3FB5D * Keys *** DH.: 0xA82248FD * * DH.: 0x41B6F689 *
Re: [luau] IMPORTANT - Upcoming List Policy
> >I always check signatures, by the way... > > > > Who gave you my public key? It shouldn't be on the keyservers... In the words of Dr. Strangelove: "Yes, but the... whole point of the doomsday machine... is lost... if you keep it a secret! Why didn't you tell the world, eh?" pgpb0oCuaLcQD.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [luau] IMPORTANT - Upcoming List Policy
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I always check signatures, by the way... Who gave you my public key? It shouldn't be on the keyservers... In the words of Dr. Strangelove: "Yes, but the... whole point of the doomsday machine... is lost... if you keep it a secret! Why didn't you tell the world, eh?" I wasn't complaining that he had it (that's the purpose of a public key, right? :), but rather wondering where he got it from as it wasn't readily available on the keyservers. Of course as it turns out he didn't have it, but he does now :) --MonMotha pgpMxzudqUkvH.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [luau] IMPORTANT - Upcoming List Policy
On Friday 06 September 2002 11:33, MonMotha wrote: > In theory it shouldn't show up as an attachment. I get an attachment with Kmail 3.02 dean
Re: [luau] IMPORTANT - Upcoming List Policy
On Thu, 5 Sep 2002, Robert Green wrote: >Perhaps the best idea would be to have a separate list centered >around the Linux for Schools project, particularly for the non-geek >types? If the people who joined LUAU for the LTSP complain, then yes. --jc -- Jimen Ching (WH6BRR) [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[luau] IMPORTANT - Upcoming List Policy (MS Bashing)
Microsoft is indeed a very good company, and, from my own experience it does produce very good products. Abstractly bashing Microsoft only makes one look ignorant.
Re: [luau] IMPORTANT - Upcoming List Policy (MS Bashing)
I don't have the money to try every new M$ release, but I don't care for what I've tried, and I continue to believe that they have caused great damage to competition and choice within the computer industry. W. Wayne Liauh wrote: Microsoft is indeed a very good company, and, from my own experience it does produce very good products. Abstractly bashing Microsoft only makes one look ignorant. ___ LUAU mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://videl.ics.hawaii.edu/mailman/listinfo/luau
