Re: [LUAU] HDs for mirrors.hosef.org
HawaiiDakine.com wrote: Did You Get my Check? I sent it before Christmas. Aloha Al Our thanks to you and Julie. Yours did arrive. One of the four hard drive checks arrived, too. Technically we received two. It's no big deal, at all, Michael is rich, ;-), but I thought a little reminder would help. --scott ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/luau
Re: [LUAU] HDs for mirrors.hosef.org
On Monday, January 8, 2007, at 04:19 AM, R. Scott Belford wrote: Michael Bishop wrote: Vince Hoang wrote: Since Michael offered to help, I am going to ask him to handle the order and have HOSEF reimburse him. Let Scott know if you need a donation receipt. OK, so I'm ordering (4) Western Digital 500G HDs and (1) 3ware 9500S-4LP. I'll post when it arrives. We have only received one check so far. Having complete confidence in the delivery person :-) , I'm pretty sure you got mine, right? --Peter ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/luau
Re: [LUAU] HDs for mirrors.hosef.org
Nakashima wrote: Having complete confidence in the delivery person :-) , I'm pretty sure you got mine, right? Mercy The exceedingly generous gift from you and your family has been well received, Peter, and we are quite grateful. Thanks for following through. The gentle nudging has put all the ducks in a row, and Michael will soon be reimbursed. In a year. :-) --Peter --scott ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/luau
Re: [LUAU] HDs for mirrors.hosef.org
On Tuesday, December 19, 2006, at 12:51 PM, Michael Bishop wrote: $169.99 X 4 = $679.96 for HDs $324.99 for 3Ware RAID $1004.95 grand total $807.95 - (4) IDE HDs $197 more for SATA drives Bottom like for 4 people, the cost would be $250. Would anyone else like to chip in? Any amount will help. Do I hear $15? $50? $100? $200? I'll pledge $500 for HOSEF to use in whatever way it feels appropriate. I'll get the check to Scott ASAP. --Peter ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/luau
Re: [LUAU] HDs for mirrors.hosef.org
On Thu, Dec 21, 2006 at 07:12:03AM -1000, Vince Hoang wrote: On Wed, Dec 20, 2006 at 05:51:10PM -1000, HawaiiDakine.com wrote: I'll give a $50.00 check to the mirror server project with the hopes of FreeBSD being part of it. Done! http://mirrors.hosef.org/FreeBSD/ I cheated, FreeBSD ISOs have been there for at least two years now. CVSup is a bigger hurdle. Any modula 3 hackers out there? I doubt the old motherboard supports PCI-X, but the 3ware 9500S-4LP should work. (SATA, RAID1+0). To whom do I send the tax deductable gift? Hosef? HOSEF PO Box 392 Kailua, HI 96734 Since Michael offered to help, I am going to ask him to handle the order and have HOSEF reimburse him. Let Scott know if you need a donation receipt. I'm mailing HOSEF my donation check for $251.95 towards the mirror server upgrades today. Thanks to everyone who helped organize this, and especially Vince for stepping forward to be point man. -- Clifton -- Clifton Royston -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] / [EMAIL PROTECTED] President - I and I Computing * http://www.iandicomputing.com/ Custom programming, network design, systems and network consulting services ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/luau
Re: [LUAU] HDs for mirrors.hosef.org
Vince Hoang wrote: On Wed, Dec 20, 2006 at 05:51:10PM -1000, HawaiiDakine.com wrote: I'll give a $50.00 check to the mirror server project with the hopes of FreeBSD being part of it. Done! http://mirrors.hosef.org/FreeBSD/ I cheated, FreeBSD ISOs have been there for at least two years now. CVSup is a bigger hurdle. Any modula 3 hackers out there? I doubt the old motherboard supports PCI-X, but the 3ware 9500S-4LP should work. (SATA, RAID1+0). To whom do I send the tax deductable gift? Hosef? HOSEF PO Box 392 Kailua, HI 96734 Since Michael offered to help, I am going to ask him to handle the order and have HOSEF reimburse him. Let Scott know if you need a donation receipt. -Vince ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/luau # Aloha Vince, Happy Holidays and the beer is good idea. I'll send the check so we can get on with the new mirror and get these posts onto a more worth while subject. I recall it was just as nuts on the list when HOSEF was born. Thanks for the url of the FreeBSD on the existing server. Can anyone recommend a spam blocker, with a how to, that works? I was told that Spam Assissin is good, but I tried it and it does not kill off the spam and return it to sender. It does mark it as spam, but I could do the same manually. ˜Al Plant - Honolulu, Hawaii + http://hawaiidakine.com + http://freebsdinfo.org + [EMAIL PROTECTED] + + http://internetohana.org - Supporting - FreeBSD 6.* - 7.* + All that's really worth doing is what we do for others.- Lewis Carrol ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/luau
Re: [LUAU] HDs for mirrors.hosef.org
Quoting HawaiiDakine.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Can anyone recommend a spam blocker, with a how to, that works? I was told that Spam Assissin is good, but I tried it and it does not kill off the spam and return it to sender. It does mark it as spam, but I could do the same manually. Hi Al, Spamassassin is a good way to help stem the tide of spam. You wouldn't want to return it to the sender because it more than likely will not go to the spammer but a compromised box of theirs. It will mark spam and rewrite the subject line so you and your users can easily filter them to trash. You can also set a threshold on the score that the spam receives and it it matches or exceeds this threshold it is automatically sent to /dev/null. A couple of other things to look into for spam fighting. A 30 second sleep during the smtp exchange will reduce spam, sendmail uses what is called a 'GreetPause'. Testing for valid users during the smtp process then rejecting the email if the user doesn't exist will also help. Make sure that you send a message back to the sender letting them know that that user does not exist, it may just have been a typo. Anything you can do at the smtp layer is preferred, it will be less of a load on your server at this level rather than spamassassin firing up perl to check the mail. Hope that helps a little, Jon ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/luau
Re: [LUAU] HDs for mirrors.hosef.org
On Fri, 2006-12-22 at 14:24 -1000, HawaiiDakine.com wrote: Can anyone recommend a spam blocker, with a how to, that works? I was told that Spam Assissin is good, but I tried it and it does not kill off the spam and return it to sender. It does mark it as spam, but I could do the same manually. You could try playing with the Spam Assassin settings first since you have that installed. Otherwise LavaNet's implemented Greylisting recently to dramatic effect. This page is a good overview of Greylisting mechanics: http://www.linux.com/howtos/Spam-Filtering-for-MX/greylisting.shtml A quick search for 'freebsd greylist' shows milter-greylist pretty prominently: http://hcpnet.free.fr/milter-greylist/ ~ Julian ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/luau
Re: [LUAU] HDs for mirrors.hosef.org
Quoting jon: A couple of other things to look into for spam fighting. A 30 second sleep during the smtp exchange will reduce spam, sendmail uses what is called a 'GreetPause'. Testing for valid users during the smtp process then rejecting the email if the user doesn't exist will also help. Make sure that you send a message back to the sender letting them know that that user does not exist, it may just have been a typo. Anything you can do at the smtp layer is preferred, it will be less of a load on your server at this level rather than spamassassin firing up perl to check the mail. Hope that helps a little, Jon Hey Jon, What is needed to setup the 30 second sleep delay for sendmail? Also, are their any negative effects to doing this? We run SA here at work and filter 100,000+ messages a day. Our setup runs spamassassin, clamav, sare ruleset, RBL, SURBL, DCC, Pyzor, Razor, etc. Its running up and up with the commercial spam appliances. :) Wilson ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/luau
Re: [LUAU] HDs for mirrors.hosef.org
Quoting Wilson Chan [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Quoting jon: A couple of other things to look into for spam fighting. A 30 second sleep during the smtp exchange will reduce spam, sendmail uses what is called a 'GreetPause'. Testing for valid users during the smtp process then rejecting the email if the user doesn't exist will also help. Make sure that you send a message back to the sender letting them know that that user does not exist, it may just have been a typo. Anything you can do at the smtp layer is preferred, it will be less of a load on your server at this level rather than spamassassin firing up perl to check the mail. Hope that helps a little, Jon Hey Jon, What is needed to setup the 30 second sleep delay for sendmail? Also, are their any negative effects to doing this? We run SA here at work and filter 100,000+ messages a day. Our setup runs spamassassin, clamav, sare ruleset, RBL, SURBL, DCC, Pyzor, Razor, etc. Its running up and up with the commercial spam appliances. :) Hi Wilson, The stanza would go into your sendmail.mc file and would look like this: sendmail.mc:FEATURE(`greet_pause', `6000')dnl That is a 6 second sleep, I'll leave the math to you. ;) One thing to take into consideration about this. I do this on our mail relay server and the actual server that the users get their mail from. Outlook chokes on the greetpause and won't be able to pop mail from the server. But on a mail relay it is another measure to try to stem the tide. Definitely do some research about the Outlook issue before you implement this in your production boxes. Jon ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/luau
Re: [LUAU] HDs for mirrors.hosef.org
On Wed, Dec 20, 2006 at 05:51:10PM -1000, HawaiiDakine.com wrote: I'll give a $50.00 check to the mirror server project with the hopes of FreeBSD being part of it. Done! http://mirrors.hosef.org/FreeBSD/ I cheated, FreeBSD ISOs have been there for at least two years now. CVSup is a bigger hurdle. Any modula 3 hackers out there? I doubt the old motherboard supports PCI-X, but the 3ware 9500S-4LP should work. (SATA, RAID1+0). To whom do I send the tax deductable gift? Hosef? HOSEF PO Box 392 Kailua, HI 96734 Since Michael offered to help, I am going to ask him to handle the order and have HOSEF reimburse him. Let Scott know if you need a donation receipt. -Vince ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/luau
Re: [LUAU] HDs for mirrors.hosef.org
Vince Hoang wrote: To whom do I send the tax deductable gift? Hosef? HOSEF PO Box 392 Kailua, HI 96734 Our address has changed. The above address is still active but rarely checked. HOSEF PO Box 2644 Ewa Beach, HI 96706 Since Michael offered to help, I am going to ask him to handle the order and have HOSEF reimburse him. Let Scott know if you need a donation receipt. Given the level at which each of you is about to donate, you will need a letter for tax purposes. -Vince --scott ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/luau
Re: [LUAU] HDs for mirrors.hosef.org
On Tue, Dec 19, 2006 at 12:51:46PM -1000, Michael Bishop wrote: Vince Hoang wrote: 3ware makes the only SATA cards that I have personally known to work over the past 3 years and a 4-port card will run about $300. Silicon Image makes sub-$100 cards, but I have not used them in a year. Adaptec ships too many cards to make any sense of. ... 3ware 9550SX-4LP KIT 4-Port Half Length/Low profile Serial ATA II RAID Controller Card Retail http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=131700 $324.99 $169.99 X 4 = $679.96 for HDs $324.99 for 3Ware RAID $1004.95 grand total $807.95 - (4) IDE HDs $197 more for SATA drives Bottom like for 4 people, the cost would be $250. I'm fine with paying this share. Sounds like what we need is for someone to make a final decision that the rest of us can sign on to. -- Clifton -- Clifton Royston -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] / [EMAIL PROTECTED] President - I and I Computing * http://www.iandicomputing.com/ Custom programming, network design, systems and network consulting services ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/luau
Re: [LUAU] HDs for mirrors.hosef.org
On Dec 20, 2006, at 7:59 AM, Clifton Royston wrote: On Tue, Dec 19, 2006 at 12:51:46PM -1000, Michael Bishop wrote: Vince Hoang wrote: 3ware makes the only SATA cards that I have personally known to work over the past 3 years and a 4-port card will run about $300. Silicon Image makes sub-$100 cards, but I have not used them in a year. Adaptec ships too many cards to make any sense of. ... 3ware 9550SX-4LP KIT 4-Port Half Length/Low profile Serial ATA II RAID Controller Card Retail http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=131700 $324.99 $169.99 X 4 = $679.96 for HDs $324.99 for 3Ware RAID $1004.95 grand total $807.95 - (4) IDE HDs $197 more for SATA drives Bottom like for 4 people, the cost would be $250. I'm fine with paying this share. I'm down for $251.25. ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/luau
Re: [LUAU] HDs for mirrors.hosef.org
On 12/20/06, Jim Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: $169.99 X 4 = $679.96 for HDs $324.99 for 3Ware RAID $1004.95 grand total $807.95 - (4) IDE HDs $197 more for SATA drives Bottom like for 4 people, the cost would be $250. I'm fine with paying this share. I'm down for $251.25. This is a good example of how having a tax deduction - via HOSEF - helps LUAU. HOSEF helping LUAU. I can front the money for the equipment since it doesn't split wellor maybe we can use http://www.chipin.com/ a local company. As soon as Vince says go, we can get the ball rolling. -Matt ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/luau
Re: [LUAU] HDs for mirrors.hosef.org
Matt Darnell wrote: On 12/20/06, Jim Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: $169.99 X 4 = $679.96 for HDs $324.99 for 3Ware RAID $1004.95 grand total $807.95 - (4) IDE HDs $197 more for SATA drives Bottom like for 4 people, the cost would be $250. I'm fine with paying this share. I'm down for $251.25. This is a good example of how having a tax deduction - via HOSEF - helps LUAU. HOSEF helping LUAU. I can front the money for the equipment since it doesn't split wellor maybe we can use http://www.chipin.com/ a local company. As soon as Vince says go, we can get the ball rolling. -Matt ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/luau Aloha! You can sure tell from the latest flurry on the list this is the Happy Holidays or Silly Season take your pick. I have loved being on this list for years and to see, and occasionally help with, the various reincarnations of LUAU since the days at the UH Inovation Center in Manoa. Early 1990's I recall it was. I'll give a $50.00 check to the mirror server project with the hopes of FreeBSD being part of it. To whom do I send the tax deductable gift? Hosef? ˜Al Plant - Honolulu, Hawaii 808-284-2740 + http://hawaiidakine.com + http://freebsdinfo.org + [EMAIL PROTECTED] + + http://internetohana.org - Supporting - FreeBSD 6.* - 7.* + All that's really worth doing is what we do for others.- Lewis Carrol ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/luau
Re: [LUAU] HDs for mirrors.hosef.org
On Mon, Dec 18, 2006 at 01:56:05PM -1000, Matt Darnell wrote: Perhaps we should let Vince propose which drive(s) to purchase, @ $200 each. I think we have three hands up to buy one and donate. I think there are four people: Jim Thompson Michael Bishop Clifton Royston Matt Darnell Yes. Thanks to Scott for the initial hardware. Thanks to Matt, Michael, Scott, Warren, and the anonymous HOSEF/McKinley donations for the second and third round of upgrades. I wonder if a SATA add-in card should be added to the wish list. I can imagine finding a box to support all the IDE devices in four years will be a challenge. 3ware makes the only SATA cards that I have personally known to work over the past 3 years and a 4-port card will run about $300. Silicon Image makes sub-$100 cards, but I have not used them in a year. Adaptec ships too many cards to make any sense of. Sticking with PATA would be non-ideal, but it is no showstopper. I think 500GB PATA disks should out live their usefulness in 4 years for file mirror. -Vince ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/luau
Re: [LUAU] HDs for mirrors.hosef.org
Vince Hoang wrote: 3ware makes the only SATA cards that I have personally known to work over the past 3 years and a 4-port card will run about $300. Silicon Image makes sub-$100 cards, but I have not used them in a year. Adaptec ships too many cards to make any sense of. If we choose to move to SATA drives we will get better hardware at a better price. Western Digital makes a SATA HD specially designed for RAID. They call it their RAID Edition 2 drives. I'm using them in my server right now and they have been great so far. Western Digital RE2 WD5000YS 500GB Serial ATA 3.0 Gb/s 7200RPM Hard Drive w/16MB Buffer http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=101258-9 $169.99 each 3ware 7506-4LP Parallel ATA RAID Controller Card Retail http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=131711 $258.99 3ware 9550SX-4LP KIT 4-Port Half Length/Low profile Serial ATA II RAID Controller Card Retail http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=131700 $324.99 $169.99 X 4 = $679.96 for HDs $324.99 for 3Ware RAID $1004.95 grand total $807.95 - (4) IDE HDs $197 more for SATA drives Bottom like for 4 people, the cost would be $250. Would anyone else like to chip in? Any amount will help. Do I hear $15? $50? $100? $200? BTW, I'll be attending the Open Source Pizza tonight -- sounds like a good one. Sticking with PATA would be non-ideal, but it is no showstopper. I think 500GB PATA disks should out live their usefulness in 4 years for file mirror. Agreed. While the SATA would be great, the IDE would still be bigger than what's in there now. Michael -Vince ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/luau ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/luau
Re: [LUAU] HDs for mirrors.hosef.org
On Dec 17, 2006, at 9:02 PM, Michael Bishop wrote: Vince Hoang wrote: I am rather allergic to RAID5 unless it is on a _seriously_ fast SCSI controller, but we can certainly run a 600GB RAID1 + 500GB single-disk to get over 1TB of space for the public file mirror until the second pair can be completed. Are there any other businesses that want to do any end of the year write offs? :) I'll buy one for the mirror. How about: Seagate Barracuda 7200.9 ST3500641A 500GB PATA 7200RPM Hard Drive w/ 16MB Buffer ***Free Shipping*** http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=101547 $198.99 each $795.96 for 4 HDs $11.99 SH to Hawaii $807.95 grand total I'd personally like to see mirrored: - Ubuntu repository - CentOS 4.4 repository - FreeBSD CVSup tree Perhaps we should let Vince propose which drive(s) to purchase, @ $200 each. I think we have three hands up to buy one and donate. Thanks folks. Thank you all very much. Thank you for keeping the HOSEF server running and managed well. Yes, thank you. jim ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/luau
Re: [LUAU] HDs for mirrors.hosef.org
Jim Thompson wrote: On Dec 17, 2006, at 9:02 PM, Michael Bishop wrote: Vince Hoang wrote: I am rather allergic to RAID5 unless it is on a _seriously_ fast SCSI controller, but we can certainly run a 600GB RAID1 + 500GB single-disk to get over 1TB of space for the public file mirror until the second pair can be completed. Are there any other businesses that want to do any end of the year write offs? :) I'll buy one for the mirror. How about: Seagate Barracuda 7200.9 ST3500641A 500GB PATA 7200RPM Hard Drive w/16MB Buffer ***Free Shipping*** http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=101547 $198.99 each $795.96 for 4 HDs $11.99 SH to Hawaii $807.95 grand total I'd personally like to see mirrored: - Ubuntu repository - CentOS 4.4 repository - FreeBSD CVSup tree Perhaps we should let Vince propose which drive(s) to purchase, @ $200 each. Sure, I would welcome any reasonable choice. Since I know Vince is quite busy. I figured I'd help push the process along and suggest something reasonable. Also, these come with a 5 year warranty which will help to stretch our donation. I think we put in Seagate's last time as well. Which reminds me, there is one IDE cable in the server that looks like it's been put through the grinder and then stepped on a few times. ;-P So I'll also donate some really long IDE cables. I should still have a new 36 and 48-inch in stock. I think we have three hands up to buy one and donate. I'm the fourth and would be willing to handle the transaction if everyone agrees. I'm putting in an order Wednesday morning so I can comp the SH if we can all agree by then. Otherwise let me know where to send the check. I'd very much like to install the HDs as I haven't seen Brian's new lab since he moved. It'd also give me a chance to check out the new toys Brian's working with. :-) Long live the HOSEF mirror! Michael ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/luau
Re: [LUAU] HDs for mirrors.hosef.org
On Mon, Dec 18, 2006 at 06:10:09AM -1000, Michael Bishop wrote: Jim Thompson wrote: On Dec 17, 2006, at 9:02 PM, Michael Bishop wrote: Vince Hoang wrote: I am rather allergic to RAID5 unless it is on a _seriously_ fast SCSI controller, but we can certainly run a 600GB RAID1 + 500GB single-disk to get over 1TB of space for the public file mirror until the second pair can be completed. Are there any other businesses that want to do any end of the year write offs? :) I'll buy one for the mirror. How about: Seagate Barracuda 7200.9 ST3500641A 500GB PATA 7200RPM Hard Drive w/16MB Buffer ***Free Shipping*** http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=101547 $198.99 each $795.96 for 4 HDs $11.99 SH to Hawaii $807.95 grand total Sounds good to me. My experience is that I'd expect a longer life from the Barracuda than the Maxtor. (Also sounds like you're saying the server is IDE/PATA.) That would give roughly 1 TB either in RAID 1, or configured as 1+0 (mirrored and striped.) I'd personally like to see mirrored: - Ubuntu repository - CentOS 4.4 repository - FreeBSD CVSup tree Ooh yeah. Dunno if this is enough space for all that, but sounds like a good goal. Perhaps we should let Vince propose which drive(s) to purchase, @ $200 each. Sure, I would welcome any reasonable choice. Since I know Vince is quite busy. I figured I'd help push the process along and suggest something reasonable. Also, these come with a 5 year warranty which will help to stretch our donation. I think we put in Seagate's last time as well. Which reminds me, there is one IDE cable in the server that looks like it's been put through the grinder and then stepped on a few times. ;-P So I'll also donate some really long IDE cables. I should still have a new 36 and 48-inch in stock. I think we have three hands up to buy one and donate. I'm the fourth and would be willing to handle the transaction if everyone agrees. I'm putting in an order Wednesday morning so I can comp the SH if we can all agree by then. Otherwise let me know where to send the check. I'm OK with that if Vince et al. are agreed. -- Clifton -- Clifton Royston -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] / [EMAIL PROTECTED] President - I and I Computing * http://www.iandicomputing.com/ Custom programming, network design, systems and network consulting services ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/luau
