Re: [LUAU] s/hosef.ics.hawaii.edu/mirrors.hosef.org/g
On Fri, Dec 22, 2006 at 11:14:07PM -1000, Jimen Ching wrote: > On Fri, 22 Dec 2006, Jim Thompson wrote: [...ad infinitum...] The only way this exchange will draw to an end is if one of you can give up on having the last word. That would be a nice demonstration of maturity. -- Clifton -- Clifton Royston -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] / [EMAIL PROTECTED] President - I and I Computing * http://www.iandicomputing.com/ Custom programming, network design, systems and network consulting services ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/luau
Re: [LUAU] s/hosef.ics.hawaii.edu/mirrors.hosef.org/g
On Fri, 22 Dec 2006, Jim Thompson wrote: http://lists.hosef.org/pipermail/luau/2002-October/011089.html When you talk about acquiring the server so you can run your version of the list, are you not talking about same? Two more examples of you misintepreting me and ... Actually, I have no idea what you're trying to achieve here. Just to clarify the above; in the email you referenced, I was being sarcastic. And when I said I want to acquire the server, I was refering to the machine that's running the LUAU mailing list. The rest of your email response is more of the same. And since you'll misinterpret me no matter what I say, there's really no point in responding... --jc -- Jimen Ching (WH6BRR) [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/luau
Re: [LUAU] s/hosef.ics.hawaii.edu/mirrors.hosef.org/g
LUAU and HOSEF, like soylent green, are made of people. On Dec 21, 2006, at 9:40 AM, Robert Green wrote: It appears to me that this argument is largely a matter of semantics, but I find it ironic that Jim spends a whole paragraph dissecting the various meanings of the “free” in “free software” and yet stands by the sweeping generalization: "LUAU = HOSEF; HOSEF = LUAU" Gee, there aren't a lot of C/C++/Java/C#/bash/csh/perl/... programmers on the list. :-( Two things (places) holding the same value(s). Hmm. (Nobody pointed out that its redundant, either. But I digress.) While I understand Jim’s idea that they are largely overlapping and composed of many of the same people, the LUAU == HOSEF is a gross oversimplification. Wait, where did I say "HOSEF == LUAU"? Please don't misquote me. I originally stated, "LUAU is HOSEF. HOSEF is LUAU." That is true, but this was in specific response to Matt's suggestion that HOSEF should provide a box to LUAU. So please, folks. Please look at the **context** of what I said, OK? http://lists.hosef.org/pipermail/luau/2006-December/017497.html My opinion is that the LUAU list should remain accessible to all, and it seems that by making it implicitly identified with HOSEF, it seems that it is threatening to some people who disagree with HOSEF or its principal (for whatever reason). "HOSEF or its principal"? The rest of my responses in this thread have been a pro-active response to exactly this. Scott is a part of HOSEF. A big part, yes, but nowhere near the only part, and for most of HOSEF's tenure, not even a major part. Far too many people make this assumptive mistake, and that, in my view, is the mistake that causes the tension and flames. Various people don't like Scott, for whatever reason. I don't care. I find Scott to be both likable and right more often than he is wrong. I like Scott, and I'm trying hard to like most people I meet. Various people don't like Stallman, either. But he's also right more often than he is wrong. Jim ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/luau
Re: [LUAU] s/hosef.ics.hawaii.edu/mirrors.hosef.org/g
On Dec 21, 2006, at 10:13 PM, Jimen Ching wrote: On Wed, 20 Dec 2006, Jim Thompson wrote: (Have you forgotten that you once put Warren in your killfile?) I can't forget something that never happened. I have never created a killfile in my life. http://lists.hosef.org/pipermail/luau/2002-October/011089.html I am saying you are free to fork the list, and always have been. I am (expressly) not encouraging you to do so. Only you know why you persist in arguing the point, rather than starting your own version of the list. When you say: "rather than starting your own version of the list", this can be interpreted as encouraging me to fork the list. When you talk about acquiring the server so you can run your version of the list, are you not talking about same? Sorry. My comment was specifically responding to the hard drive thread, not to the "help Julin and Vince" part. My bad for not editing my qoute better. Actually, I did kind of mention the hard drive thread. You just cut my paragraph apart, so it make me sound like I said something I didn't. Still, I should've edited my qoute better. You responded with a red herring. Why? I was trying to clarify what I was trying to say. And also to apologize for not editing my qoutes better and causing miscommunication. Sheesh. Seems I can't even apologize correctly in your eyes. You dodged the question. Thank you for your answer, and yes, apology accepted. It is appropriate. Did I say otherwise? Matter of fact, any HOSEF related topic is appropriate for LUAU. So HOSEF is LUAU? :-) LUAU is the appropriate place for all FOSS discussions. Xorg is FOSS, and it is appropriate to discuss Xorg related topics. Both true statements. Does that mean Xorg is LUAU? Simply because you can discuss an organization on LUAU doesn't make them the same. The Xorg developers aren't on this list. You may be interpreting my words too literally. Hows this. "the community that is LUAU is the community that is HOSEF" Many people appear to mistake "Scott Belford" for "HOSEF", are you one of them? Scott Belford created HOSEF. When the creator of HOSEF says "HOSEF=LUAU", that has implications. First, as a reminder, I said it, and a couple others on this list agreed with me. Scott was one of them. Second, I find it fascinating that you've backed off labeling Scott as a "board member" (once shown that he isn't) and have now decided that Scott is the "creator" of HOSEF. Third, it may be your interpretation that "Scott Belford created HOSEF", but the history I can find shows otherwise. July 2002: Warren asks about forming a non-profit (for MPLUG) http:// lists.hosef.org/pipermail/luau/2002-July/009520.html July 2002: Scott responds: http://lists.hosef.org/pipermail/luau/ 2002-July/009532.html Oct 2002: Scott proposes a non-profit http://lists.hosef.org/ pipermail/luau/2002-October/010901.html Oct 2002: Warren proposes the name (for the second time) http:// lists.hosef.org/pipermail/luau/2002-October/010989.html Jan 2003: http://lists.hosef.org/pipermail/luau/2003-January/012129.html Jan 2003: HOSEF is incorporated as a 501(c)(3), Warren is chair for the first two months early 2004: Scott Belford "Founder/Chair/Treasurer" http:// lists.hosef.org/pipermail/hosef-announce/2004q1/29.html next post: Scott Belford is PR Director http://lists.hosef.org/ pipermail/hosef-announce/2004q1/30.html Aug 2004: HOSEF re-organized to have "directors at large" http:// lists.hosef.org/pipermail/hosef-announce/2004q3/32.html Granted, Scott was very, very involved, but he didn't act alone. I think this says a lot about his style of leadership. (Its a good thing.) Scott Belford says, "LUAU is your LUG" http://lists.hosef.org/ pipermail/luau/2004-August/015595.html In fact, a complete answer to this thread is contained in that one post. Oh, and don't think that I always agree with Scott, either: Gag me: http://lists.hosef.org/pipermail/luau/2003-March/012765.html ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/luau
Re: [LUAU] s/hosef.ics.hawaii.edu/mirrors.hosef.org/g
On Wed, 20 Dec 2006, Jim Thompson wrote: (Have you forgotten that you once put Warren in your killfile?) I can't forget something that never happened. I have never created a killfile in my life. I am saying you are free to fork the list, and always have been. I am (expressly) not encouraging you to do so. Only you know why you persist in arguing the point, rather than starting your own version of the list. When you say: "rather than starting your own version of the list", this can be interpreted as encouraging me to fork the list. Sorry. My comment was specifically responding to the hard drive thread, not to the "help Julin and Vince" part. My bad for not editing my qoute better. Actually, I did kind of mention the hard drive thread. You just cut my paragraph apart, so it make me sound like I said something I didn't. Still, I should've edited my qoute better. You responded with a red herring. Why? I was trying to clarify what I was trying to say. And also to apologize for not editing my qoutes better and causing miscommunication. Sheesh. Seems I can't even apologize correctly in your eyes. It is appropriate. Did I say otherwise? Matter of fact, any HOSEF related topic is appropriate for LUAU. So HOSEF is LUAU? :-) LUAU is the appropriate place for all FOSS discussions. Xorg is FOSS, and it is appropriate to discuss Xorg related topics. Does that mean Xorg is LUAU? Simply because you can discuss an organization on LUAU doesn't make them the same. Many people appear to mistake "Scott Belford" for "HOSEF", are you one of them? Scott Belford created HOSEF. When the creator of HOSEF says "HOSEF=LUAU", that has implications. I'll respond to your critique of my earlier posts in another reply. --jc -- Jimen Ching (WH6BRR) [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/luau
Re: [LUAU] s/hosef.ics.hawaii.edu/mirrors.hosef.org/g
To the approximate 472 words Robert Green has just submitted Ditto! ...especially the part about "semantics." I lurk here in a desperate attempt to improve my vocabulary and to reach minimal literacy in FOSSology so that when I FINALLY get a "round tuit".I won't be completely ignorant for my final complete migration to non-emess influenced engineering in my own personal IT life..and perhaps I'll grab a credential or two too. Almost the ultimate list lurker, -Ben, aka "The Hack." BTW, sorry Bob, but off-list responses to me are totally appropriate as well. ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/luau
Re: [LUAU] s/hosef.ics.hawaii.edu/mirrors.hosef.org/g
Against my better judgment, Im adding my 2 cents to this on the open list. Like Vince, I think it probably belongs off the list, but when I get 40-odd messages over the course of a day or two, and it is primarily from one or two people, I feel like folks feel that everyone agrees with one point of view, i.e. that their silence is a tacit agreement. As someone who has been around since the pre-HOSEF days (even if mostly as a lurker), I think that it is important that more than just two or 3 people weigh in on this identity issue. First off, I hope nobody will take anything here as a personal attack, as it is not meant to be. It appears to me that this argument is largely a matter of semantics, but I find it ironic that Jim spends a whole paragraph dissecting the various meanings of the free in free software and yet stands by the sweeping generalization: "LUAU = HOSEF; HOSEF = LUAU" While I understand Jims idea that they are largely overlapping and composed of many of the same people, the LUAU == HOSEF is a gross oversimplification. In my opinion, this is simply not the case; in spite of the fact that many of the people in one group are in the other, they are not the same. LUAU is a Linux / *nix User Group, albeit only a virtual one nowadays. HOSEF is a non-profit org with a mission is to promote and sustain the use of Open Source Software through advocacy, outreach, support, and the recycling of donated computer eWaste from the general public. Even if both groups were entirely composed of the exact same members (which they are not) and nobody had any personality conflicts (which we know is not true), we are still left with two distinct purposes, and therefore two distinct groups, in spite of the overlap. While it is nice the HOSEF has shouldered the responsibility of providing services to host the LUAU list for the past several years, it does not follow that suddenly the two groups are now the same. Generally, I dont think it makes any real difference in practice, but when saying something like HOSEF == LUAU starts causing list-flames and threatened (real?) unsubscribes over semantics, I think it is an opinion that is best left for coffee shop debates or off-list discussions. My opinion is that the LUAU list should remain accessible to all, and it seems that by making it implicitly identified with HOSEF, it seems that it is threatening to some people who disagree with HOSEF or its principal (for whatever reason). Like Vince, responses are preferred via private mail. Thanks, Rob __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/luau
Re: [LUAU] s/hosef.ics.hawaii.edu/mirrors.hosef.org/g
On Wed, Dec 20, 2006 at 11:37:09PM -1000, Jimen Ching wrote: > And Vince, the following is directed at the LUAU list as a > whole and not you personally. Even though I'm using your qoute; > I'm only using it to make a point. Not a problem. Your participation over the years has been certainly valued and welcomed. > Concerning this qoute: "... the non-technical ones are a > complete eye-sore." I know the following will sound like a > lecture, and I know a lot of you already know about FOSS and > the ideas behind it. But I think we sometimes need reminding > of what this concept is all about. I know I sometimes forget > myself... My point is you and Jim probably agree with each other more than with me but end up spending lots of time arguing minor points. And if it was important, why is the subject untouched? There would be lots more Google juice for this sub-thread if it was. > Well, that's another point I want to make concerning the qoute > above. Which is--not only should LUAU be open to all topics > of Linux and FOSS, it should be open to all organizations as > well. We are in agreement here. I doubt anyone disagrees. We just get stuck on the statement "HOSEF is LUAU". I happen to disagree with that, surprise! But I also think it matters little because I participate on this forum and the non-profit to the extent that I am willing and able. My only regret there is not actually having met Jim or Julian. You and I have not been introduced in real life for that matter. > If you've read all the way to this sentence, I thank you for > giving me your time and reading my opinions. I do, but still believe a blog, private replies, or over some beer would be better for such an issue. If anyone wants to reply to my comments, please do so privately. -Vince ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/luau
Re: [LUAU] s/hosef.ics.hawaii.edu/mirrors.hosef.org/g
Jimen, Eben Moglen has participated in a great many technical discussions. Its part of his vocation (job) and avocation (the thing he loves). Scott didn't say "LUAU = HOSEF; HOSEF = LUAU;", I did. I did not create HOSEF. While Scott had a great deal to do with creating HOSEF, he was not its sole creator. (The record shows that it was Warren who came up with the name. Twice.) For the record, Scott isn't even a board member (director) of HOSEF. Your fears and statements are both unfounded and untrue. I formally ask that you withdraw them. I never said that I (or anyone, including "HOSEF", the organization) "ows" LUAU. Neither group is above the other, though it is (quite) convenient for the 503(c) (HOSEF) to operate the machine where the LUAU list (as well as many other resources) is hosted, for a number of reasons, some covered on this thread. Rather than what you imply, or perhaps infer, what I said was that they are the same people, with largely similar goals. The fact that you are confused while many others here are not is of vital import to understanding what has happened. Finally, in order to steer this back to a topic we can all engage in, "Free Software" is expressly *NOT* about creation of source code and the sharing of this source code. Free software is a matter of the users' freedom to run, copy, distribute, study, change and improve the software. More precisely, it refers to four kinds of freedom, for the users of the software: The freedom to run the program, for any purpose (freedom 0). The freedom to study how the program works, and adapt it to your needs (freedom 1). Access to the source code is a precondition for this. The freedom to redistribute copies so you can help your neighbor (freedom 2). The freedom to improve the program, and release your improvements to the public, so that the whole community benefits (freedom 3). Access to the source code is a precondition for this. A program is free software if users have all of these freedoms. As you can see, access to source code is necessary but not sufficient for a program to be Free Software. "Open Source" is a marketing effort. (ESR will admit to this.) It is (was?) an attempt to make Free Software "safe for business"(*). It does this by choosing to not talk about Freedom, but instead, to talk about a development model where source code is freely shared. Your statement is almost an accurate description of "Open Source", but not of Free Software. As the primary author of a GPLed program, you need to be aware of this. I refer you to http://www.fsf.org/licensing/essays/free- software-for-freedom.html for further prose on the subject. Jim (*) the evidence shows that it has failed. In failing, it has wandered off into the soup of "license proliferation", and become largely irrelevant.OSI can't even be bothered to update its own website, and now the very phrase "Open Source" has become a tool in the hands of Microsoft. "Its dead, Jim." (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/11/20/ eben_moglen_on_microsoft_novell/page2.html) ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/luau
Re: [LUAU] s/hosef.ics.hawaii.edu/mirrors.hosef.org/g
On Tue, 19 Dec 2006, Vince Hoang wrote: On Mon, Dec 18, 2006 at 11:52:20PM -1000, Jimen Ching wrote: I think if you subscribe to this list for a while, the ratio of bickering to technical discussion should go down. ;-) I certainly welcome more bickering/debates on technical merits, but the non-technical ones are a complete eye-sore. We are all not going to agree on whether or not HOSEF == LUAU. Move it to a blog where it belongs. k thx. I took some time to think carefully about this issue and I would like to respectfully disagree. I'm sure a lot of members are wondering why I bother with all this. It wasn't that long ago that something like this happened before. So, why the big deal? Well, I would like to explain, and if the LUAU members could bear with me. And Vince, the following is directed at the LUAU list as a whole and not you personally. Even though I'm using your qoute; I'm only using it to make a point. Concerning this qoute: "... the non-technical ones are a complete eye-sore." I know the following will sound like a lecture, and I know a lot of you already know about FOSS and the ideas behind it. But I think we sometimes need reminding of what this concept is all about. I know I sometimes forget myself... Free and open source software is about creation of source code and the sharing of this source code. Projects like the current HD's for mirroring are very important to this idea. Sharing of source code is just as important as the creation of this source code. This is why we sometimes have to stop coding and look at some of the issues that impede us from sharing, such as software patents, DRM, and other political issues. With the SCO vs. IBM case still pending, I'm sure many of us are aware of the dangers that affect our software freedoms. These non-technical topics are just as important to FOSS as administering a server or writing the next great application. Take Eben Moglen for example. I doubt he has participated in that many technical software discussions. But if he wanted to discuss legal issues about FOSS on this list; should we tell him such a thread would be an eye-sore, because it's non-technical? I hope not. But, this only says that political issues matter to FOSS and should be relevant to the LUAU mailing list. Why all the bickering about what is and is not LUAU? Why is that so important? Why should it be discussed in this mailing list? Well, that's another point I want to make concerning the qoute above. Which is--not only should LUAU be open to all topics of Linux and FOSS, it should be open to all organizations as well. Then what is the problem you ask? The problem is this; if we allow the creator of HOSEF to say "LUAU is HOSEF", then the members who don't want to be associated with HOSEF are forced to do so. This opens the door to allow any one from any organization to say "LUAU is my organization", because a few members are also part of my organization. These statements are not fair to one group or the other. The only fair solution is to reject such statements when they are made. This will allow each LUAU member to decide for themself which organizations deserve their support. I strongly believe in this idea. I hope there are others who do as well. This issue may not seem important now. But I'm thinking into the future. I hope that other members will start their own organizations, and I truly hope the LUAU community will be there to support these new organizations as it did for HOSEF. I know the above statements will make me sound like I dispise HOSEF or think lowly of its creator. This couldn't be further from the truth. I truly believe HOSEF is performing a great service for the Hawaii community. But...I also believe that LUAU should be a platform for other organizations to spring up. I'm glad that Scott chose LUAU as the community to base his HOSEF organization. I hope there are many more Scott's out there that will use LUAU as a launch pad for great things. This is why we need to make sure the LUAU community stay true to itself and support everyone, and every organization, who is interested in Linux and FOSS. If you've read all the way to this sentence, I thank you for giving me your time and reading my opinions. I hope some of you believe as I do about this issue. And I hope a few will voice their opinions in support. Because if we hope to help support the creation of new organizations, we need to prevent such opinions from being suppressed by telling them to go discuss it in their own blogs. LUAU should be the right place for such opinions and discussions. You support not only benefits Linux and FOSS, but Hawaii as well. Thanks again... --jc -- Jimen Ching (WH6BRR) [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/luau
Re: [LUAU] s/hosef.ics.hawaii.edu/mirrors.hosef.org/g
On Dec 20, 2006, at 12:53 AM, Jimen Ching wrote: On Mon, 18 Dec 2006, Jim Thompson wrote: Attempting to define LUAU is like trying to hold water in your fist. When you make the statement "LUAU is HOSEF", you're attempting to define LUAU. I must then ask, why are you attempting to do something that seems impossible? I've cared about the direction of the LUAU mailing list for a long time. I'm sure the archives will show that I've voiced my opinions on the matter on many occasions. If that proves me to be childish and petty, then so be it. And what action(s) have you taken? 'Voice my opinion' as mentioned in the qouted text. If you review the history carefully, the "former managers" had checked out. May I ask what the point of this statement? That LUAU had, essentially, died before the current folks revived it. There are managers now, right? So why bring up former managers? Are you trying to say something about the current managers? LUAU is also essentially the same people who are involved with HOSEF. This is one of the issues I have. Not everyone in LUAU is involved with HOSEF. Thus, saying LUAU is HOSEF isn't fair to these people. Not everyone in HOSEF is involved with LUAU, either. Still LUAU = HOSEF = LUAU = HOSEF. HOSEF was formed on the LUAU list. Have you forgotten? http://lists.hosef.org/pipermail/luau/2002-October/010919.html http://lists.hosef.org/pipermail/luau/2002-October/010989.html (Have you forgotten that you once put Warren in your killfile?) LUAU is supported and maintained by HOSEF. Did you not know? HOSEF is a 503(c) (non profit) corporation in part so UH can host the machine and provide the bandwidth.Did you know? Or are you worried that LUAU will loose its "geek culture"? http:// lists.hosef.org/pipermail/luau/2002-September/010388.html Yes, you can attend the next HOSEF board meeting. Its tomorrow night. Looks like I missed the meeting. We looked for you. I think I only need to meet with Scott, as the issue I have is really between me and Scott and not the entire HOSEF board. What is your issue, exactly? The HOSEF board didn't make any statements. Scott did. I am also on the board, as is Julian Yap and Ron Fox. (There is another person named Patrick, but he's been silent and hasn't shown up to a HOSEF board meeting in a while.) Do you want to suggest an agenda item, or were you coming to listen? I have no issues with HOSEF or with its board members. I'm mainly concerned about the LUAU mailing list and the hardware supporting it. You are free to 'fork' the list, and always have been. You are free to copy the archives of the list, and always have been You are free to post messages to the LUAU list and tell the assembled there that you have a different list (you can even name it LUAU, though its obviously not going to be . Those you invite are free to join in. What are you trying to say with these suggestions? You want me to fork the list? I certainly don't need you to tell me what I'm free or not free to do. So please, come out and say what you really mean. I am saying you are free to fork the list, and always have been. I am (expressly) not encouraging you to do so. You have always been free to do these things, but there is a reason you have not. You may wish to explore same. So I have a reason for not forking the list? Ok, now I'm curious. Please enlighten me. Only you know why you persist in arguing the point, rather than starting your own version of the list. I know when I joined LUAU, I joined LUAU, not HOSEF. You limit yourself unnecessarily. Why? Because I don't see it as a limitation. I see it as freedom to choose what I want to involve myself with. When you join a company, as an employee, and that company acquires a different company, do you quit your job? When your friend/spouse/lover acquires an acquaintance whom you can't stand, do you quit them? Interesting. Your volunteer time to help Julian and Vince administrate LUAU is always welcome. Your time to install the soon-to-be donated hard drives would be appreciated. No individual has the ability to dump LUAU. Did Scott say anything about HOSEF? No. He said, "Your volunteer time to help Julian and Vince administrate LUAU is always welcome. " You responded with a red herring. Why? Sorry. My comment was specifically responding to the hard drive thread, not to the "help Julin and Vince" part. My bad for not editing my qoute better. Actually, I did kind of mention the hard drive thread. You just cut my paragraph apart, so it make me sound like I said something I didn't. Still, I should've edited my qoute better. You responded with a red herring. Why? If I understand the hard drive thread, that's about mirroring of distributions. I do not believe LUAU as a mailing list will be significantly impacted by this. But if it is, I
Re: [LUAU] s/hosef.ics.hawaii.edu/mirrors.hosef.org/g
On Mon, 18 Dec 2006, Jim Thompson wrote: Attempting to define LUAU is like trying to hold water in your fist. When you make the statement "LUAU is HOSEF", you're attempting to define LUAU. I must then ask, why are you attempting to do something that seems impossible? I've cared about the direction of the LUAU mailing list for a long time. I'm sure the archives will show that I've voiced my opinions on the matter on many occasions. If that proves me to be childish and petty, then so be it. And what action(s) have you taken? 'Voice my opinion' as mentioned in the qouted text. If you review the history carefully, the "former managers" had checked out. May I ask what the point of this statement? There are managers now, right? So why bring up former managers? Are you trying to say something about the current managers? LUAU is also essentially the same people who are involved with HOSEF. This is one of the issues I have. Not everyone in LUAU is involved with HOSEF. Thus, saying LUAU is HOSEF isn't fair to these people. Yes, you can attend the next HOSEF board meeting. Its tomorrow night. Looks like I missed the meeting. I think I only need to meet with Scott, as the issue I have is really between me and Scott and not the entire HOSEF board. The HOSEF board didn't make any statements. Scott did. Do you want to suggest an agenda item, or were you coming to listen? I have no issues with HOSEF or with its board members. I'm mainly concerned about the LUAU mailing list and the hardware supporting it. You are free to 'fork' the list, and always have been. You are free to copy the archives of the list, and always have been You are free to post messages to the LUAU list and tell the assembled there that you have a different list (you can even name it LUAU, though its obviously not going to be . Those you invite are free to join in. What are you trying to say with these suggestions? You want me to fork the list? I certainly don't need you to tell me what I'm free or not free to do. So please, come out and say what you really mean. You have always been free to do these things, but there is a reason you have not. You may wish to explore same. So I have a reason for not forking the list? Ok, now I'm curious. Please enlighten me. I know when I joined LUAU, I joined LUAU, not HOSEF. You limit yourself unnecessarily. Why? Because I don't see it as a limitation. I see it as freedom to choose what I want to involve myself with. Interesting. Your volunteer time to help Julian and Vince administrate LUAU is always welcome. Your time to install the soon-to-be donated hard drives would be appreciated. No individual has the ability to dump LUAU. Did Scott say anything about HOSEF? No. He said, "Your volunteer time to help Julian and Vince administrate LUAU is always welcome. " You responded with a red herring. Why? Sorry. My comment was specifically responding to the hard drive thread, not to the "help Julin and Vince" part. My bad for not editing my qoute better. Actually, I did kind of mention the hard drive thread. You just cut my paragraph apart, so it make me sound like I said something I didn't. Still, I should've edited my qoute better. If I understand the hard drive thread, that's about mirroring of distributions. I do not believe LUAU as a mailing list will be significantly impacted by this. But if it is, I'm willing to purchase the necessary equipment to make it independent. Does the local mirroring of distributions not help those who are interested in the topics appropriate for LUAU? It is appropriate. Did I say otherwise? Matter of fact, any HOSEF related topic is appropriate for LUAU. I've been a member of LUAU long before HOSEF. This doesn't mean you are being civil or respectful. Ugh, ok. You're misqouting me, again. Matter of fact, I was trying to say I wasn't being civil or respectful at all. That's what the rest of the paragraph was trying to say. But you cut it apart. And in doing so, changed the meaning. And now I'm being told that since I don't provide the time and money to maintain it, I don't have a say in the direction of LUAU. You've been told no such thing, of course. It's my interpretation of what was said. Granted, I may have misinterpreted the comments. I hope that's what happened... No "organization" posts here. We are all individuals, and I doubt that many, indeed if any of us think we represent an organization when we post here. I don't know if you know this. But organizations don't make posts. The officers of the organizations make the posts. When such an officer makes a post, he or she needs to say whether they are speaking for the organization or for themselves. When no such disclaimer is made, one has to assume. Which leads to misunderstandings. I'm sure that's what has happened here... I don't see you taking any positive steps.
Re: [LUAU] s/hosef.ics.hawaii.edu/mirrors.hosef.org/g
On Mon, Dec 18, 2006 at 11:52:20PM -1000, Jimen Ching wrote: > I think if you subscribe to this list for a while, the ratio > of bickering to technical discussion should go down. ;-) One thing I can certainly fault myself for is having too loud of a voice when I first joined the list and thus drowning out others. So to make this short... I certainly welcome more bickering/debates on technical merits, but the non-technical ones are a complete eye-sore. We are all not going to agree on whether or not HOSEF == LUAU. Move it to a blog where it belongs. k thx. -Vince ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/luau
Re: [LUAU] s/hosef.ics.hawaii.edu/mirrors.hosef.org/g
On Mon, 18 Dec 2006, Nakashima wrote: My apologies to you for being muddy in my initial post. Probably made me sound like an idiot :-) Not at all. I keep seeing people say there's a lot of bickering in this mailing list. This may or may not be the case depending on how thick your skin is and how many other mailing lists you've been on. I've subscribed to a few in the past and I don't think LUAU is better or worst than other 'community' lists. This was all I was trying to say. I guess I might have came off a little defensive... I think if you subscribe to this list for a while, the ratio of bickering to technical discussion should go down. ;-) --jc -- Jimen Ching (WH6BRR) [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/luau
Re: [LUAU] s/hosef.ics.hawaii.edu/mirrors.hosef.org/g
On Dec 18, 2006, at 11:43 PM, Jimen Ching wrote: On Mon, 18 Dec 2006, Jim Thompson wrote: (sections of the above are lifted from a recent speech by Eben Moglen) Very zen. I wonder if he talks like that in court rooms. ;-) Eben doesn't practice courtroom law. http:// emoglen.law.columbia.edu/resume.html Very few lawyers go for the 'litigation' route in their careers. Most good lawyers try very hard to keep their clients out of court. There are exceptions, but they are rare. Jim ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/luau
Re: [LUAU] s/hosef.ics.hawaii.edu/mirrors.hosef.org/g
On Dec 18, 2006, at 11:19 PM, Jimen Ching wrote: On Sun, 17 Dec 2006, R. Scott Belford wrote: The person you are referring to is a lifelong resident of this beautiful island, and I think it is reasonable to be surprised that a mailing list about FOSS could become so childishly petty. I'm still not exactly sure what the issues are. But this thread is about the definition of LUAU, so I'll assume your comment applies to this thread. If your comment doesn't apply, then please ignore. Attempting to define LUAU is like trying to hold water in your fist. I've cared about the direction of the LUAU mailing list for a long time. I'm sure the archives will show that I've voiced my opinions on the matter on many occasions. If that proves me to be childish and petty, then so be it. And what action(s) have you taken? This is quite different than transit, education, or other issues that are neither free, voluntary, nor inherently cooperative. As you mentioned in your email below, running a mailing list isn't free either. And from your tone (and I admit I might have misinterpreted), it wasn't very voluntary or cooperative. What I mean by that is; it seems you were forced into supporting the mailing list out-of-pocket. I didn't realize the depth of this commitment. I'm sure Scott was glad to do it, too. But if I've interpreted your email correctly, then there does seem to be a lot of similarity between FOSS and these other communities. I've been around FOSS long enough to know that it suffers from the same problems as anything else. I only need to point to Debian to prove my point. Though, that may or may not be fair to FOSS or Debian. How is it that this list is managed and sustained? The charitable entity called HOSEF was created and named on this mailing list. Everyone was invited and encouraged to participate. After its creation HOSEF adopted LUAU, with the blessing of its former manager, and aside from the occasional bruised ego it has been a very good relationship. I remember an email from you at the beginning of this effort that says something to the effect--LUAU will remain a mailing list about general Linux and free/open source software. I didn't realize that LUAU would become a tool of/for HOSEF. I don't know if this is what you are implying when you said HOSEF adopted LUAU. Is this what the former managers blessed? Nothing Scott said has to be interpreted as making LUAU a tool of/for HOSEF. This is your interpretation. Scott may have been saying that LUAU will continue as it is/was, (a mailing lit about general Linux and free/open source software. If you review the history carefully, the "former managers" had checked out. If this is what the HOSEF organization is trying to do from the beginning, I would have done something more to keep LUAU independent. LUAU is independent. LUAU is also essentially the same people who are involved with HOSEF. At the least, the intersection of the two sets is quite large. The people who feel strongest about the independence of LUAU have done nothing to preserve it. No one stepped up to provide hardware or support for this list when it was asked for many, many years ago. Until a few hard drives were funded one day at McKinley, the entire dual athlon 4U server currently at UH was from my pocket. Instead of gratitude or appreciation there has been resentment. I thought you stepped up to support LUAU. And by support, I mean to just host the mailing list. I guess you're now saying you were forced into it? I didn't realize this situation existed. If to keep LUAU independent requires that I put my money where my mouth is, I am ready to purchase these equipments. Let's meet to discuss this further. Can I attend your next HOSEF board meeting? When is that? Yes, you can attend the next HOSEF board meeting. Its tomorrow night. Do you want to suggest an agenda item, or were you coming to listen? As I've stated before: You are free to 'fork' the list, and always have been. You are free to copy the archives of the list, and always have been You are free to post messages to the LUAU list and tell the assembled there that you have a different list (you can even name it LUAU, though its obviously not going to be . Those you invite are free to join in. You have always been free to do these things, but there is a reason you have not. You may wish to explore same. Thanks to a whole host of folks, namely Ed Orcutt, LUAU was born. Thanks to Warren Togami, LUAU was revived. Thanks to Brian Chee's willingness to host us and Vince Hoang's willingness to administrate us, LUAU exists. A history of sorts is here http://www.hosef.org/wiki/LUAU_history Yes, and I hope LUAU stays open to many organizations, whether HOSEF or others. But from this thread, I don't get that confortable feeling. This is from someone who was the
Re: [LUAU] s/hosef.ics.hawaii.edu/mirrors.hosef.org/g
On Mon, 18 Dec 2006, Jim Thompson wrote: (sections of the above are lifted from a recent speech by Eben Moglen) Very zen. I wonder if he talks like that in court rooms. ;-) --jc -- Jimen Ching (WH6BRR) [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/luau
Re: [LUAU] s/hosef.ics.hawaii.edu/mirrors.hosef.org/g
On Sun, 17 Dec 2006, R. Scott Belford wrote: The person you are referring to is a lifelong resident of this beautiful island, and I think it is reasonable to be surprised that a mailing list about FOSS could become so childishly petty. I'm still not exactly sure what the issues are. But this thread is about the definition of LUAU, so I'll assume your comment applies to this thread. If your comment doesn't apply, then please ignore. I've cared about the direction of the LUAU mailing list for a long time. I'm sure the archives will show that I've voiced my opinions on the matter on many occasions. If that proves me to be childish and petty, then so be it. This is quite different than transit, education, or other issues that are neither free, voluntary, nor inherently cooperative. As you mentioned in your email below, running a mailing list isn't free either. And from your tone (and I admit I might have misinterpreted), it wasn't very voluntary or cooperative. What I mean by that is; it seems you were forced into supporting the mailing list out-of-pocket. I didn't realize the depth of this commitment. But if I've interpreted your email correctly, then there does seem to be a lot of similarity between FOSS and these other communities. I've been around FOSS long enough to know that it suffers from the same problems as anything else. I only need to point to Debian to prove my point. Though, that may or may not be fair to FOSS or Debian. How is it that this list is managed and sustained? The charitable entity called HOSEF was created and named on this mailing list. Everyone was invited and encouraged to participate. After its creation HOSEF adopted LUAU, with the blessing of its former manager, and aside from the occasional bruised ego it has been a very good relationship. I remember an email from you at the beginning of this effort that says something to the effect--LUAU will remain a mailing list about general Linux and free/open source software. I didn't realize that LUAU would become a tool of/for HOSEF. I don't know if this is what you are implying when you said HOSEF adopted LUAU. Is this what the former managers blessed? If this is what the HOSEF organization is trying to do from the beginning, I would have done something more to keep LUAU independent. The people who feel strongest about the independence of LUAU have done nothing to preserve it. No one stepped up to provide hardware or support for this list when it was asked for many, many years ago. Until a few hard drives were funded one day at McKinley, the entire dual athlon 4U server currently at UH was from my pocket. Instead of gratitude or appreciation there has been resentment. I thought you stepped up to support LUAU. And by support, I mean to just host the mailing list. I guess you're now saying you were forced into it? I didn't realize this situation existed. If to keep LUAU independent requires that I put my money where my mouth is, I am ready to purchase these equipments. Let's meet to discuss this further. Can I attend your next HOSEF board meeting? When is that? Thanks to a whole host of folks, namely Ed Orcutt, LUAU was born. Thanks to Warren Togami, LUAU was revived. Thanks to Brian Chee's willingness to host us and Vince Hoang's willingness to administrate us, LUAU exists. A history of sorts is here http://www.hosef.org/wiki/LUAU_history Yes, and I hope LUAU stays open to many organizations, whether HOSEF or others. But from this thread, I don't get that confortable feeling. This is from someone who was there when Warren tried to turn LUAU into MPLUG. I see this episode as just another incarnation of that attempt. Correct. HOSEF does not "own" LUAU. HOSEF is the entity that has managed and sustained LUAU. Jim is correct that HOSEF=LUAU, and you are correct that LUAU is not owned by HOSEF. LUAU does not magically exist, though, and there is real work and sacrifice behind this thing so many take for granted. I'm getting mixed messages here. I hope that LUAU is open to all non-profit organizations. I hope that a year from now, if someone wants to say MYNONPROFIT=LUAU, that is just as valid. But, I think it would be better if people understood that LUAU is not tied to any one organization, but instead, is a community of all free and open source groups/projects/organizations. Everyone is free to associate themselves to LUAU. But LUAU should remain independent of them all. I think the members of LUAU would appreciate that. I know when I joined LUAU, I joined LUAU, not HOSEF. Interesting. Your volunteer time to help Julian and Vince administrate LUAU is always welcome. Your time to install the soon-to-be donated hard drives would be appreciated. No individual has the ability to dump LUAU. I'm specifically concerned about LUAU the mailing list, not HOSEF in general. If I understand the hard drive thread, that's abo
Re: [LUAU] s/hosef.ics.hawaii.edu/mirrors.hosef.org/g
Hi Jimen, I think my unclear style of writing muddied up the water. Let me explain. On Sunday, December 17, 2006, at 07:47 PM, Jimen Ching wrote: Are you sure you're living in Hawaii? Level of bickering is surprising? Are you not monitoring the Rail Transit debate? Are you not monitoring the Hawaii K-12 education debate? If you have a group of people that has more than 5 people, you'll have bickering. Is this a surprise for you? Where are you from? I should have swapped the 2nd and 3rd sentences. Being an educator, not a geek (in the positive sense), my rose-colored expectations lead me to believe there would be a greater sense of community on the list. [Self deprecating comment, not negative to LUAU posters, so no need to feel offended. The term "rose-colored" defined as, an attitude of cheerful optimism, of seeing everything in an attractive, pleasant light. When I first got involved with HOSEF, I knew nothing about Linux, open source software, and the rest. My initial exposure to it all, along with my "newbie-ness," led me to think, here was this wonderful utopian, open, community oriented concept. I didn't bother viewing it with my "real world" glasses. Therefore, the level of bickering surprised me. As you correctly stated above, this stuff is the same as any other stuff involving people of diverse views.] However, I still have hopes (here I go again) that HOSEF and LUAU can rise above the usual bickering of a rail transit or k-12 education debate. My apologies to you for being muddy in my initial post. Probably made me sound like an idiot :-) --Peter ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/luau
Re: [LUAU] s/hosef.ics.hawaii.edu/mirrors.hosef.org/g
On Dec 17, 2006, at 8:57 AM, Clifton Royston wrote: On Sun, Dec 17, 2006 at 03:51:22AM -1000, Jim Thompson wrote: I really don't get the whole HOSEF vs. LUAU thing. There is no HOSEF vs. LUAU thing. HOSEF is LUAU. LUAU is HOSEF. There is no ownership. Free Software teaches this. There is no I. There is no other. There is only 'we' or nothing. Know your user, know yourself. What is the actual 'issue'? some people want a place to hang and drink coffee, tea or beer while playing with linux. some people want to make the world a better place (installing labs, keeping ewaste out of the dump, etc) some want to look for a job some are trying to avoid a job sometimes these are the same people. sometimes these are different people. What would it take to have this issue 'go away'? zero ego. the selfless self. This is true in theory, in principle, but I'm sure you've heard the difference between theory and practice. Wise men do not become trapped by experience (practice). In dealing with people, you need to start with people as they are. If some people see barriers between them, then there's a barrier for them. (In some cases this may include entities such as the IRS who deal with the legalities of entities.) This barrier is imaginary. A myth. It is only present for those who think it so. A myth is, of course, not a fairy story. It is the presentation of facts belonging to one category in the idioms appropriate to another. To explode a myth is accordingly not to deny the facts but to re-allocate them. ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/luau
Re: [LUAU] s/hosef.ics.hawaii.edu/mirrors.hosef.org/g
On Dec 17, 2006, at 8:54 PM, R. Scott Belford wrote: Jimen Ching wrote: On Sun, 17 Dec 2006, Nakashima wrote: Over the years, I've witnessed exceptional acts of generosity, cooperation and community within HOSEF and LUAU. However, the level of bickering has surprised me. Are you sure you're living in Hawaii? Level of bickering is surprising? Are you not monitoring the Rail Transit debate? Are you not monitoring the Hawaii K-12 education debate? If you have a group of people that has more than 5 people, you'll have bickering. Is this a surprise for you? Where are you from? The person you are referring to is a lifelong resident of this beautiful island, and I think it is reasonable to be surprised that a mailing list about FOSS could become so childishly petty. This is quite different than transit, education, or other issues that are neither free, voluntary, nor inherently cooperative. Children are wonderfully honest. They can teach us as much as we teach them. To a child, just seeing, just doing is truth. In a child's mind, when you are hungry, eat. When someone is hungry, give them food. Being an educator, not a geek (in the positive sense), my rose- colored expectations lead me to believe there would be a greater sense of community. I hope HOSEF and LUAU can evolve into a strong, positive force for change. I don't know what's going on. I've been reading this list continuously, but somehow, this issue came about and I missed the beginning or something. What exactly is the issue? Jim, just to clarify; HOSEF is not LUAU and LUAU is not HOSEF. LUAU predated HOSEF. If you want to know HOSEF, just visit its website. As for LUAU, this is it. If you're reading this email, you're part of LUAU. HOSEF and LUAU are part of the whole, and therefore part of each other. In many, many ways, HOSEF is LUAU and LUAU is HOSEF. If the parents of a thousand children are praised, those thousand children will rejoice. If one makes offerings to the parents, he makes offerings to their thousand children as well. How is it that this list is managed and sustained? The charitable entity called HOSEF was created and named on this mailing list. Everyone was invited and encouraged to participate. After its creation HOSEF adopted LUAU, with the blessing of its former manager, and aside from the occasional bruised ego it has been a very good relationship. The people who feel strongest about the independence of LUAU have done nothing to preserve it. No one stepped up to provide hardware or support for this list when it was asked for many, many years ago. Until a few hard drives were funded one day at McKinley, the entire dual athlon 4U server currently at UH was from my pocket. Instead of gratitude or appreciation there has been resentment. They also surf, who only stand and wait. Thanks to a whole host of folks, namely Ed Orcutt, LUAU was born. Thanks to Warren Togami, LUAU was revived. Thanks to Brian Chee's willingness to host us and Vince Hoang's willingness to administrate us, LUAU exists. A history of sorts is here http://www.hosef.org/wiki/LUAU_history Many have done much, but those who have only posted questions, seeking assistance have contributed as well. LUAU doesn't have a leader, there's no phone number, there's no monthly meetings. There's no treasury. LUAU, at the end of the day, is just a file with a list of email addresses on someone's computer. Apparently, at the moment, it's lists.hosef.org. Note; this doesn't mean HOSEF _owns_ this list. The list used to be hosted on an ICS computer, that doesn't mean ICS owned the list. If you want to learn some history about LUAU, do a search in the archives. Correct. HOSEF does not "own" LUAU. HOSEF is the entity that has managed and sustained LUAU. Jim is correct that HOSEF=LUAU, and you are correct that LUAU is not owned by HOSEF. LUAU does not magically exist, though, and there is real work and sacrifice behind this thing so many take for granted. There is no owner. There is no owned. How does one own a community? Nothing stops 1,000 groups from starting their own lists, each called "LUAU", but the whole is greater than the parts. Well all intuitively grasp this truth, so the list has not been forked. There is no owner. There is no owned. How does one own software? Before you answer, consider a world where mathematics are property, owned by people. In this world, every time you want to do anything useful: build a house, make a boat, start a bridge, devise a market, move objects weighing certain numbers of kilos from one place to another, your first stop is at the mathematics store to buy enough math to complete the task which lies before you. You can only use as much arithmetic at a time as you can afford, and it is difficult to build a sufficient inventory of mathematics, given its price
Re: [LUAU] s/hosef.ics.hawaii.edu/mirrors.hosef.org/g
Jimen Ching wrote: On Sun, 17 Dec 2006, Nakashima wrote: Over the years, I've witnessed exceptional acts of generosity, cooperation and community within HOSEF and LUAU. However, the level of bickering has surprised me. Are you sure you're living in Hawaii? Level of bickering is surprising? Are you not monitoring the Rail Transit debate? Are you not monitoring the Hawaii K-12 education debate? If you have a group of people that has more than 5 people, you'll have bickering. Is this a surprise for you? Where are you from? The person you are referring to is a lifelong resident of this beautiful island, and I think it is reasonable to be surprised that a mailing list about FOSS could become so childishly petty. This is quite different than transit, education, or other issues that are neither free, voluntary, nor inherently cooperative. Being an educator, not a geek (in the positive sense), my rose-colored expectations lead me to believe there would be a greater sense of community. I hope HOSEF and LUAU can evolve into a strong, positive force for change. I don't know what's going on. I've been reading this list continuously, but somehow, this issue came about and I missed the beginning or something. What exactly is the issue? Jim, just to clarify; HOSEF is not LUAU and LUAU is not HOSEF. LUAU predated HOSEF. If you want to know HOSEF, just visit its website. As for LUAU, this is it. If you're reading this email, you're part of LUAU. How is it that this list is managed and sustained? The charitable entity called HOSEF was created and named on this mailing list. Everyone was invited and encouraged to participate. After its creation HOSEF adopted LUAU, with the blessing of its former manager, and aside from the occasional bruised ego it has been a very good relationship. The people who feel strongest about the independence of LUAU have done nothing to preserve it. No one stepped up to provide hardware or support for this list when it was asked for many, many years ago. Until a few hard drives were funded one day at McKinley, the entire dual athlon 4U server currently at UH was from my pocket. Instead of gratitude or appreciation there has been resentment. Thanks to a whole host of folks, namely Ed Orcutt, LUAU was born. Thanks to Warren Togami, LUAU was revived. Thanks to Brian Chee's willingness to host us and Vince Hoang's willingness to administrate us, LUAU exists. A history of sorts is here http://www.hosef.org/wiki/LUAU_history LUAU doesn't have a leader, there's no phone number, there's no monthly meetings. There's no treasury. LUAU, at the end of the day, is just a file with a list of email addresses on someone's computer. Apparently, at the moment, it's lists.hosef.org. Note; this doesn't mean HOSEF _owns_ this list. The list used to be hosted on an ICS computer, that doesn't mean ICS owned the list. If you want to learn some history about LUAU, do a search in the archives. Correct. HOSEF does not "own" LUAU. HOSEF is the entity that has managed and sustained LUAU. Jim is correct that HOSEF=LUAU, and you are correct that LUAU is not owned by HOSEF. LUAU does not magically exist, though, and there is real work and sacrifice behind this thing so many take for granted. If the owner of lists.hosef.org one day says: "I'm tired of this free/open source software non-sense, I just want to surf the waves for the rest of my life." That's fine. This happened before, but LUAU survived. It'll survive this one as well, if it happens. I'll volunteer to host it myself if need be. Interesting. Your volunteer time to help Julian and Vince administrate LUAU is always welcome. Your time to install the soon-to-be donated hard drives would be appreciated. No individual has the ability to dump LUAU. Having said all this; HOSEF members have every right to post on LUAU, as long as it is related to free and open source software. I haven't seen anything yet that HOSEF members have posted that isn't related to free and open source software. Thus, I have no reason to complain. So, what is the problem? Who's bickering? What are they bickering about? Misunderstandings happen. We clarify ourselves and we move on. What, we haven't seen heated debates on LUAU before? When people are passionate about something, heated debates will occur. This is free and open source software. It's all about the passion. No one is getting paid for this, so what else is there if not passion? What else is there if not passion? How about civility and respect. --jc --scott -- R. Scott Belford Founder/Executive Director The Hawai`i Open Source Education Foundation PO Box 2644 Ewa Beach, HI 96706 808.689.6518 phone/fax [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/luau
Re: [LUAU] s/hosef.ics.hawaii.edu/mirrors.hosef.org/g
On Sun, 17 Dec 2006, Nakashima wrote: Over the years, I've witnessed exceptional acts of generosity, cooperation and community within HOSEF and LUAU. However, the level of bickering has surprised me. Are you sure you're living in Hawaii? Level of bickering is surprising? Are you not monitoring the Rail Transit debate? Are you not monitoring the Hawaii K-12 education debate? If you have a group of people that has more than 5 people, you'll have bickering. Is this a surprise for you? Where are you from? Being an educator, not a geek (in the positive sense), my rose-colored expectations lead me to believe there would be a greater sense of community. I hope HOSEF and LUAU can evolve into a strong, positive force for change. I don't know what's going on. I've been reading this list continuously, but somehow, this issue came about and I missed the beginning or something. What exactly is the issue? Jim, just to clarify; HOSEF is not LUAU and LUAU is not HOSEF. LUAU predated HOSEF. If you want to know HOSEF, just visit its website. As for LUAU, this is it. If you're reading this email, you're part of LUAU. LUAU doesn't have a leader, there's no phone number, there's no monthly meetings. There's no treasury. LUAU, at the end of the day, is just a file with a list of email addresses on someone's computer. Apparently, at the moment, it's lists.hosef.org. Note; this doesn't mean HOSEF _owns_ this list. The list used to be hosted on an ICS computer, that doesn't mean ICS owned the list. If you want to learn some history about LUAU, do a search in the archives. If the owner of lists.hosef.org one day says: "I'm tired of this free/open source software non-sense, I just want to surf the waves for the rest of my life." That's fine. This happened before, but LUAU survived. It'll survive this one as well, if it happens. I'll volunteer to host it myself if need be. Having said all this; HOSEF members have every right to post on LUAU, as long as it is related to free and open source software. I haven't seen anything yet that HOSEF members have posted that isn't related to free and open source software. Thus, I have no reason to complain. So, what is the problem? Who's bickering? What are they bickering about? Misunderstandings happen. We clarify ourselves and we move on. What, we haven't seen heated debates on LUAU before? When people are passionate about something, heated debates will occur. This is free and open source software. It's all about the passion. No one is getting paid for this, so what else is there if not passion? --jc -- Jimen Ching (WH6BRR) [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/luau
Re: [LUAU] s/hosef.ics.hawaii.edu/mirrors.hosef.org/g
Vince Hoang wrote: I am rather allergic to RAID5 unless it is on a _seriously_ fast SCSI controller, but we can certainly run a 600GB RAID1 + 500GB single-disk to get over 1TB of space for the public file mirror until the second pair can be completed. Are there any other businesses that want to do any end of the year write offs? :) Many of you may remember that an impetus for the creation of HOSEF was to establish a 501(c)(3) entity that could provide a tax deduction for the hardware needed to host our LUAU mailing list and ISO mirror. Now we have it your donations are fully deductible to the extend of the law. Thanks folks. Thank you all very much. Yes, thank-you. -Vince --scott -- R. Scott Belford Founder/Executive Director The Hawai`i Open Source Education Foundation PO Box 2644 Ewa Beach, HI 96706 808.689.6518 phone/fax [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/luau
Re: [LUAU] s/hosef.ics.hawaii.edu/mirrors.hosef.org/g
On Sun, Dec 17, 2006 at 07:19:08AM -1000, Clifton Royston wrote: > [Resending - sent from wrong address] Since your MUA is mutt, here is a send hook for this list: send-hook '~C luau@' \ 'my_hdr From: Clifton Royston <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ; ' \ 'my_hdr Mail-Followup-To: luau@lists.hosef.org' For the non-mutt enabled, people can always subscribe their other e-mail addresses and disable mail delivery to stop the duplicate mail. > I'd be happy to kick in a 3rd, if you want to make it RAID-5 > and double the volume? I am rather allergic to RAID5 unless it is on a _seriously_ fast SCSI controller, but we can certainly run a 600GB RAID1 + 500GB single-disk to get over 1TB of space for the public file mirror until the second pair can be completed. Are there any other businesses that want to do any end of the year write offs? :) Thanks folks. Thank you all very much. -Vince ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/luau
Re: [LUAU] s/hosef.ics.hawaii.edu/mirrors.hosef.org/g
On Saturday, December 16, 2006, at 05:57 PM, Julian Yap wrote: As of 2005, Hawaii has an estimated population of 1,275,194. - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_Hawaii We're far too small to have this kind bickering and infighting. I personally came to this island a bit over a year ago because when I had visited here previously, I liked the sense of community. Good for you Julian :-) Over the years, I've witnessed exceptional acts of generosity, cooperation and community within HOSEF and LUAU. However, the level of bickering has surprised me. Being an educator, not a geek (in the positive sense), my rose-colored expectations lead me to believe there would be a greater sense of community. I hope HOSEF and LUAU can evolve into a strong, positive force for change. The kind of change that will have a local effect for the little ones who pass through my computer lab year after year. Many of them would benefit from a strong local FOSS community. HOSEF and LUAU have enormous potential. I feel privileged to be a tiny tiny part of it. --Peter ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/luau
Re: [LUAU] s/hosef.ics.hawaii.edu/mirrors.hosef.org/g
On Sun, Dec 17, 2006 at 03:51:22AM -1000, Jim Thompson wrote: > >I really don't get the whole HOSEF vs. LUAU thing. > > There is no HOSEF vs. LUAU thing. > > HOSEF is LUAU. LUAU is HOSEF. > There is no ownership. Free Software teaches this. > > There is no I. There is no other. There is only 'we' or nothing. > > Know your user, know yourself. > > >What is the actual 'issue'? > > some people want a place to hang and drink coffee, tea or beer while > playing with linux. > some people want to make the world a better place (installing labs, > keeping ewaste out of the dump, etc) > some want to look for a job > some are trying to avoid a job > sometimes these are the same people. > sometimes these are different people. > > >What would it take to have this issue 'go away'? > > zero ego. the selfless self. This is true in theory, in principle, but I'm sure you've heard the difference between theory and practice. In dealing with people, you need to start with people as they are. If some people see barriers between them, then there's a barrier for them. (In some cases this may include entities such as the IRS who deal with the legalities of entities.) If you can be free of accepting boundaries, you don't need to convert other people to the same - that's usually a waste of energy. (This is one reason I've stopped arguing about source licenses.) -- Clifton -- Clifton Royston -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] / [EMAIL PROTECTED] President - I and I Computing * http://www.iandicomputing.com/ Custom programming, network design, systems and network consulting services ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/luau
Re: [LUAU] s/hosef.ics.hawaii.edu/mirrors.hosef.org/g
On Sat, Dec 16, 2006 at 02:32:53PM -1000, Matt Darnell wrote: > >On 12/16/06, Jim Thompson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > >OK Matt, you donate a 500GB drive and I'll match it. Lets co- > >ordinate so we buy a matched pair (same geometry, speed, etc.) > > Donehow about this http://dealspl.us/deal.php?dealid=14802 [Resending - sent from wrong address] I'd be happy to kick in a 3rd, if you want to make it RAID-5 and double the volume? -- Clifton -- Clifton Royston -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] / [EMAIL PROTECTED] President - I and I Computing * http://www.iandicomputing.com/ Custom programming, network design, systems and network consulting services ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/luau
Re: [LUAU] s/hosef.ics.hawaii.edu/mirrors.hosef.org/g
On Dec 16, 2006, at 5:57 PM, Julian Yap wrote: On Sat, 2006-12-16 at 16:30 -1000, Hawaii Linux Institute wrote: Jim Thompson wrote: LUAU is HOSEF. HOSEF is LUAU. Who said so? As of 2005, Hawaii has an estimated population of 1,275,194. - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_Hawaii We're far too small to have this kind bickering and infighting. I personally came to this island a bit over a year ago because when I had visited here previously, I liked the sense of community. I really don't get the whole HOSEF vs. LUAU thing. There is no HOSEF vs. LUAU thing. HOSEF is LUAU. LUAU is HOSEF. There is no ownership. Free Software teaches this. There is no I. There is no other. There is only 'we' or nothing. Know your user, know yourself. What is the actual 'issue'? some people want a place to hang and drink coffee, tea or beer while playing with linux. some people want to make the world a better place (installing labs, keeping ewaste out of the dump, etc) some want to look for a job some are trying to avoid a job sometimes these are the same people. sometimes these are different people. What would it take to have this issue 'go away'? zero ego. the selfless self. I'd rather see us pool our talents and efforts together moving forward. Then we are. ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/luau
Re: [LUAU] s/hosef.ics.hawaii.edu/mirrors.hosef.org/g
On Sat, 2006-12-16 at 17:10 -1000, Vince Hoang wrote: > On Sat, Dec 16, 2006 at 11:32:48AM -1000, Jim Thompson wrote: > > Personally, I'd rather have a Debian/Ubuntu .deb respository, a > > Fedora rpm repository, and a local CVSup tree for freebsd than > > a bunch of ISO images. (Does anyone install from the full ISO > > set any more?) > > I personally agree with you, but folks on the list have tended to > ask more for ISOs than repository mirrors. Historically, it has > only been me and Scott that have consistently used the non-ISO > parts of the mirror. > > The server currently only supports PATA. With you and Matt > chipping in for new disks, we would be moving from a 250GB > partial RAID1 file mirror to over a 600GB RAID1 file mirror. > > With the additional space, more repositories can be added back. > CVSup for FreeBSD would be neat, but we need a working cvsup and > modula3 library for Debian. I'll throw my hat into looking into and becoming an official Fedora mirror. ~ Julian ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/luau
Re: [LUAU] s/hosef.ics.hawaii.edu/mirrors.hosef.org/g
On Sat, 2006-12-16 at 16:30 -1000, Hawaii Linux Institute wrote: > Jim Thompson wrote: > > LUAU is HOSEF. HOSEF is LUAU. > > > Who said so? As of 2005, Hawaii has an estimated population of 1,275,194. - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_Hawaii We're far too small to have this kind bickering and infighting. I personally came to this island a bit over a year ago because when I had visited here previously, I liked the sense of community. I really don't get the whole HOSEF vs. LUAU thing. What is the actual 'issue'? What would it take to have this issue 'go away'? I'd rather see us pool our talents and efforts together moving forward. ~ Julian ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/luau
Re: [LUAU] s/hosef.ics.hawaii.edu/mirrors.hosef.org/g
On Sat, Dec 16, 2006 at 11:32:48AM -1000, Jim Thompson wrote: > I thought the idea was to be able to use the bandwidth locally? For mirrors.hosef.org, yes. For www.hosef.org, no. > Personally, I'd rather have a Debian/Ubuntu .deb respository, a > Fedora rpm repository, and a local CVSup tree for freebsd than > a bunch of ISO images. (Does anyone install from the full ISO > set any more?) I personally agree with you, but folks on the list have tended to ask more for ISOs than repository mirrors. Historically, it has only been me and Scott that have consistently used the non-ISO parts of the mirror. The server currently only supports PATA. With you and Matt chipping in for new disks, we would be moving from a 250GB partial RAID1 file mirror to over a 600GB RAID1 file mirror. With the additional space, more repositories can be added back. CVSup for FreeBSD would be neat, but we need a working cvsup and modula3 library for Debian. > If we ever get the Kuokoa project off the ground, we're doing > to need a repository for that. A vserver was prepped a year ago, but probably needs to be rebuilt. -Vince ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/luau
Re: [LUAU] s/hosef.ics.hawaii.edu/mirrors.hosef.org/g
Hawaii Linux Institute wrote: > Jim Thompson wrote: > >> LUAU is HOSEF. HOSEF is LUAU. >> >> > Who said so? > ___ > Actually I don't have any interest nor the capacity to argue one way or another. But I want to make it perfectly clear that I do not want to have anything to do with hosef. Since I am not going to defend LUAU, I am left without choice but to explicitly remove myself from the LUAU mailing list (as if it would have made any difference, but 10+ years is not a trivial part of one's life). So it be noted. Wayne ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/luau
Re: [LUAU] s/hosef.ics.hawaii.edu/mirrors.hosef.org/g
Jim Thompson wrote: > > LUAU is HOSEF. HOSEF is LUAU. > Who said so? ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/luau
Re: [LUAU] s/hosef.ics.hawaii.edu/mirrors.hosef.org/g
Vince Hoang wrote: > On Sat, Dec 16, 2006 at 09:39:56AM -1000, Julian Yap wrote: > >> On Sat, 2006-12-16 at 09:08 -1000, Matt Darnell wrote: >> The ISOs for various releases have squeezed out most of the updates, so Julian is correct, only updates for the Debian and SuSE repositories are available. As the ISOs get larger, the SuSE repository will drop, and finally Debian. > > Over the years, I have noticed that the repositories were not > really used much. The mirrored ISOs turned out to be used more > and involved less maintenance, so I have been leaning heavily > towards mirroring smaller projects and the more popular ISOs. > > >>> Does the current box have room, or can you use them to bring >>> up a seperate server for the updates? >>> >> The current HOSEF server at UH is fully loaded with hard disk >> drives. >> > > The last time there was major maintenance, we moved the disks > around to provide much more space between them to allow for > better cooling. We could physically squeeze more disks into the > server now, but we would give up in reliability because the disks > would sit very close to each other and start sharing IDE chains. > > If we get a donation of 250-500GB pairs, it would be worth > pulling out the old disks to upgrade. I think donations in the > 100GB range would be best served for school servers. > > >>> I am sure HOSEF has a box it could donate to LUAU. >>> > > I have been arguing against more servers and moving most of the > web content off to a hosted facility and using the existing > server mostly for backups and file service. > > -Vince > ___ > LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list > http://lists.hosef.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/luau > > As we discussed eons ago, Vince, the primary advantage of having a local mirror is to implement a local throttling. It this still the case? Wayne ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/luau
Re: [LUAU] s/hosef.ics.hawaii.edu/mirrors.hosef.org/g
On Dec 16, 2006, at 2:32 PM, Matt Darnell wrote: On 12/16/06, Jim Thompson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: OK Matt, you donate a 500GB drive and I'll match it. Lets co- ordinate so we buy a matched pair (same geometry, speed, etc.) Donehow about this http://dealspl.us/deal.php?dealid=14802 Done, as long as the existing server supports SATA. I was going to login to it and check, but I forgot to keep the key when I reloaded the old notebook. Jim ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/luau
Re: [LUAU] s/hosef.ics.hawaii.edu/mirrors.hosef.org/g
On 12/16/06, Jim Thompson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: OK Matt, you donate a 500GB drive and I'll match it. Lets co- ordinate so we buy a matched pair (same geometry, speed, etc.) Donehow about this http://dealspl.us/deal.php?dealid=14802 -Matt ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/luau
Re: [LUAU] s/hosef.ics.hawaii.edu/mirrors.hosef.org/g
On Dec 16, 2006, at 11:15 AM, Vince Hoang wrote: On Sat, Dec 16, 2006 at 09:39:56AM -1000, Julian Yap wrote: On Sat, 2006-12-16 at 09:08 -1000, Matt Darnell wrote: The ISOs for various releases have squeezed out most of the updates, so Julian is correct, only updates for the Debian and SuSE repositories are available. As the ISOs get larger, the SuSE repository will drop, and finally Debian. Over the years, I have noticed that the repositories were not really used much. The mirrored ISOs turned out to be used more and involved less maintenance, so I have been leaning heavily towards mirroring smaller projects and the more popular ISOs. Does the current box have room, or can you use them to bring up a seperate server for the updates? The current HOSEF server at UH is fully loaded with hard disk drives. The last time there was major maintenance, we moved the disks around to provide much more space between them to allow for better cooling. We could physically squeeze more disks into the server now, but we would give up in reliability because the disks would sit very close to each other and start sharing IDE chains. If we get a donation of 250-500GB pairs, it would be worth pulling out the old disks to upgrade. I think donations in the 100GB range would be best served for school servers. OK Matt, you donate a 500GB drive and I'll match it. Lets co- ordinate so we buy a matched pair (same geometry, speed, etc.) I am sure HOSEF has a box it could donate to LUAU. I have been arguing against more servers and moving most of the web content off to a hosted facility and using the existing server mostly for backups and file service. I thought the idea was to be able to use the bandwidth locally? Personally, I'd rather have a Debian/Ubuntu .deb respository, a Fedora rpm repository, and a local CVSup tree for freebsd than a bunch of ISO images. (Does anyone install from the full ISO set any more?) If we ever get the Kuokoa project off the ground, we're doing to need a repository for that. Jim ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/luau
Re: [LUAU] s/hosef.ics.hawaii.edu/mirrors.hosef.org/g
On Sat, Dec 16, 2006 at 09:39:56AM -1000, Julian Yap wrote: > On Sat, 2006-12-16 at 09:08 -1000, Matt Darnell wrote: > > > The ISOs for various releases have squeezed out most of > > > the updates, so Julian is correct, only updates for the > > > Debian and SuSE repositories are available. As the ISOs get > > > larger, the SuSE repository will drop, and finally Debian. Over the years, I have noticed that the repositories were not really used much. The mirrored ISOs turned out to be used more and involved less maintenance, so I have been leaning heavily towards mirroring smaller projects and the more popular ISOs. > > Does the current box have room, or can you use them to bring > > up a seperate server for the updates? > > The current HOSEF server at UH is fully loaded with hard disk > drives. The last time there was major maintenance, we moved the disks around to provide much more space between them to allow for better cooling. We could physically squeeze more disks into the server now, but we would give up in reliability because the disks would sit very close to each other and start sharing IDE chains. If we get a donation of 250-500GB pairs, it would be worth pulling out the old disks to upgrade. I think donations in the 100GB range would be best served for school servers. > > I am sure HOSEF has a box it could donate to LUAU. I have been arguing against more servers and moving most of the web content off to a hosted facility and using the existing server mostly for backups and file service. -Vince ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/luau
Re: [LUAU] s/hosef.ics.hawaii.edu/mirrors.hosef.org/g
On Dec 16, 2006, at 9:08 AM, Matt Darnell wrote: The ISOs for various releases have squeezed out most of the updates, so Julian is correct, only updates for the Debian and SuSE repositories are available. As the ISOs get larger, the SuSE repository will drop, and finally Debian. Vince, I am looking at a couple of 100+ GB IDE hard drives. Does the current box have room, or can you use them to bring up a seperate server for the updates? I am sure HOSEF has a box it could donate to LUAU. LUAU is HOSEF. HOSEF is LUAU. ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/luau
Re: [LUAU] s/hosef.ics.hawaii.edu/mirrors.hosef.org/g
On Sat, 2006-12-16 at 09:08 -1000, Matt Darnell wrote: > > The ISOs for various releases have squeezed out most of the > > updates, so Julian is correct, only updates for the Debian and > > SuSE repositories are available. As the ISOs get larger, the SuSE > > repository will drop, and finally Debian. > > Vince, > > I am looking at a couple of 100+ GB IDE hard drives. > > Does the current box have room, or can you use them to bring up a > seperate server for the updates? The current HOSEF server at UH is fully loaded with hard disk drives. To be exact: 2x80GB, 4x160GB HD > I am sure HOSEF has a box it could > donate to LUAU. Hardware is a non-issue. HOSEF/LUAU needs the administrative volunteers. This also includes volunteers to co-ordinate with UH or any other provider who is willing to donate rackspace and bandwidth at non cost. ~ Julian ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/luau
Re: [LUAU] s/hosef.ics.hawaii.edu/mirrors.hosef.org/g
The ISOs for various releases have squeezed out most of the updates, so Julian is correct, only updates for the Debian and SuSE repositories are available. As the ISOs get larger, the SuSE repository will drop, and finally Debian. Vince, I am looking at a couple of 100+ GB IDE hard drives. Does the current box have room, or can you use them to bring up a seperate server for the updates? I am sure HOSEF has a box it could donate to LUAU. -Matt ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/luau
Re: [LUAU] s/hosef.ics.hawaii.edu/mirrors.hosef.org/g
On Thu, Dec 14, 2006 at 10:55:43AM -1000, Dave Burns wrote: > * Should I replace my old repository/repositories with this one or just add > it to the list? > * Is there a gpg key somewhere? > * Any other useful hints regarding how it is intended typically to be used? I was a little quick in writing my note. The ISOs for various releases have squeezed out most of the updates, so Julian is correct, only updates for the Debian and SuSE repositories are available. As the ISOs get larger, the SuSE repository will drop, and finally Debian. For apt, you can add mirrors.hosef.org as a target so apt-get can multiplex the downloads. For yum/yast, you probably want to single source from a larger mirror anyway. You get any relevant gpg keys from the respective distribution. I will pretty much mirror anything within reason that has a good rsync upstream mirror. Perl's CPAN is mirrored. I have tried to mirror ruby's gems, but the mirror masters and I disagree on the replication method. Python's Cheese Shop should sneak its way in once they start to need mirrors. -Vince ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/luau
Re: [LUAU] s/hosef.ics.hawaii.edu/mirrors.hosef.org/g
Julian Yap wrote: I think we only have Suse and Debian update repositories from what I can tell. Vince, correct me if I'm wrong. The Suse updates are here: http://mirrors.hosef.org/suse/i386/update/10.0/ What distribution do you use? I use Debian. Is the Debian repository the full distribution? -- Hawaiian Astronomical Society: http://www.hawastsoc.org HAS Deepsky Atlas: http://www.hawastsoc.org/deepsky ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/luau
Re: [LUAU] s/hosef.ics.hawaii.edu/mirrors.hosef.org/g
On Thu, 2006-12-14 at 17:37 -1000, Dave Burns wrote: > On 12/14/06, Julian Yap <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I think we only have Suse and Debian update repositories from what I can > > tell. Vince, correct me if I'm wrong. > > > > What distribution do you use? > > Fedora core 5 currently. Guess I am out of luck. > > So if I was a yum expert, what Vince said would be all I needed to know? I > could just peek at the repository and that would tell me? Preferably you'd need to know the settings but you could reverse engineer the settings, mostly. You'd need to know the directory structure of the Base URL of the repository as a bare minimum. The gpgkey location also helps. For example, the official baseurl for a 3rd party repository, Livna is: http://rpm.livna.org/fedora/$releasever/$basearch/ This you could guess by browsing to to the URL http://rpm.livna.org/fedora/ if that was the only thing provided to you. Say if you're running Fedora Core 6 on an AMD 64 CPU you could then potentially hard code the 'baseurl' parameter in repository settings to http://rpm.livna.org/fedora/6/x86_64/. Then again, you probably would not be able to guess that the gpg-key is at the URL http://rpm.livna.org/RPM-LIVNA-GPG-KEY But yeah, check out the files in /etc/yum.repos.d/ for more examples as well as the man page for yum.conf. If you modify your main Fedora Core repository to point to the one repository (as opposed to the mirror list), you lose out in redundancy, say if that one repository you point to is down. If you're worried up Yum download speed, you can install the package 'yum-fastestmirror'. Description: This plugin sorts each repository's mirrorlist by connection speed prior to downloading packages. > Hmm, the knoppix directory seems pretty old. You guys need some help with > the updating? Updating (I think Vince kicked into gear just then). http://mirrors.hosef.org/knoppix/ ~ Julian ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/luau
Re: [LUAU] s/hosef.ics.hawaii.edu/mirrors.hosef.org/g
On 12/14/06, Julian Yap <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I think we only have Suse and Debian update repositories from what I can tell. Vince, correct me if I'm wrong. What distribution do you use? Fedora core 5 currently. Guess I am out of luck. So if I was a yum expert, what Vince said would be all I needed to know? I could just peek at the repository and that would tell me? Hmm, the knoppix directory seems pretty old. You guys need some help with the updating? Dave ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/luau
Re: [LUAU] s/hosef.ics.hawaii.edu/mirrors.hosef.org/g
I think we only have Suse and Debian update repositories from what I can tell. Vince, correct me if I'm wrong. The Suse updates are here: http://mirrors.hosef.org/suse/i386/update/10.0/ What distribution do you use? Yep, there's no pages on the Wiki with instructions on how to set up the repository. The Wiki uses MediaWiki, the same software which runs Wikipedia... But yeah, sometimes there's idiosyncrasies with the search.. I think it disregards single search words with less than 4 characters. See also: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:Searching#Avoid_short_and_common_words ~ Julian On Thu, 2006-12-14 at 10:55 -1000, Dave Burns wrote: > Hi Vince and everyone, > Is there anything on the hosef wiki or anywhere with specific info about > setting up yum to use this repository? I of course can read the friendly man > page or online tutorials for general info, but I could use some specific > info about the hosef repository and suggestions for use, for instance: > > * Should I replace my old repository/repositories with this one or just add > it to the list? > * Is there a gpg key somewhere? > * Any other useful hints regarding how it is intended typically to be used? > > The wiki search seems a bit broken. (Maybe 'yum' is too short? When I search > for yum I get nothing, when I search for "yum.conf" I get a few hits with > yum and conf in the same page, never any actual 'yum.conf' hits.) > > I promise to be a good newbie and put something somewhere in the wiki if > someone who knows what's what sends an email with some useful info. > > mahalo, > Dave the eternal newbie > > On 12/13/06, Vince Hoang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > If you still have some apt/yum repositories referring to > > hosef.ics.hawaii.edu, you will want to change it soon and replace > > it with mirrors.hosef.org. The ICS-based hostname will be removed > > shortly. > > > > -Vince > > ___ > > LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list > > http://lists.hosef.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/luau > > > ___ > LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list > http://lists.hosef.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/luau > ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/luau
Re: [LUAU] s/hosef.ics.hawaii.edu/mirrors.hosef.org/g
Hi Vince and everyone, Is there anything on the hosef wiki or anywhere with specific info about setting up yum to use this repository? I of course can read the friendly man page or online tutorials for general info, but I could use some specific info about the hosef repository and suggestions for use, for instance: * Should I replace my old repository/repositories with this one or just add it to the list? * Is there a gpg key somewhere? * Any other useful hints regarding how it is intended typically to be used? The wiki search seems a bit broken. (Maybe 'yum' is too short? When I search for yum I get nothing, when I search for "yum.conf" I get a few hits with yum and conf in the same page, never any actual 'yum.conf' hits.) I promise to be a good newbie and put something somewhere in the wiki if someone who knows what's what sends an email with some useful info. mahalo, Dave the eternal newbie On 12/13/06, Vince Hoang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: If you still have some apt/yum repositories referring to hosef.ics.hawaii.edu, you will want to change it soon and replace it with mirrors.hosef.org. The ICS-based hostname will be removed shortly. -Vince ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/luau ___ LUAU@lists.hosef.org mailing list http://lists.hosef.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/luau
