Re: Folia for lute
I read your message in the lute list. Try to find the book by Hudson for the modern notations. Richard Hudson The Folia, the saraband, the passacaglia, and the chaconne : the historical evolution of four forms that originated in music for the five-course Spanish guitar (compiled by Richard Hudson). Sounds interesting. When I start back at work at Toho Gakuen in January, I'll look for it in the music library. True, they abound in 5 course guitar literature. I especially like the one at the end of La Guitarre Royalle by Corbetta. Of browse on my webpage La Folia, a musical cathedral (especially Anonymous and Purgatory) there is a search-engine included at the page. best wishes, Paul Gabler, Netherlands webmaster of http://members.chello.nl/folia Yes, I had run across your page by a Google search. Very interesting. Many people recommended the Gallot version, so now I'm now looking for the tab for it. So far, I've just found a transfusion for 10 course lute on Wayne Cripps' site. Thanks, -- Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
Re: Size of the lute world
Vance Wood at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Trouble is-a lot of them drop out or go underground because the group that should be supporting them and encouraging them is by far and away as friendly as a pack of junk yard dogs. As a whole I have never been exposed to a group, boasting interest passionately in a particular endeavor, that is more driven by ego, pride, condescension, duplicity and judgementalism. Before you get mad at me read through the posts that have flooded email servers world wide over the last week or so and ask yourself: If you were new to the Lute would you feel safe and confident in posting a question to this bunch of brigands? I'm not mad at you, but I'm not impressed by your generalized characterizations. I've never heard of anyone quitting the lute because of a flame war on the lute net, and I'm sure the number of persons who have done so is insignificant: a few hundred thousand at most. I'm sure I could think of a few who've quit the lute net in disgust--usually disgust with the same person's posts on the same subject-- but on the whole, the tone around here is remarkably civilized, helpful and informative, compared to a lot of cyberspace. Read the posts in rec.music.classical for today, 12/6/03, and you'll get a feel for what the cyber-slums are like: personal invective, gratuitous anti-Semitism and homophobia, and dozens of posts simply tallying other posts posted by antagonists. You learn to be selective in a neighborhood like that or you drown in the sewage. On the lute net, even a newbie can figure out that flame wars typically involve a few posters, and you can sidestep it if you want to. It doesn't take long to figure out who baits whom, who has a deep-seated need to always get the last word, and who substitutes personal attacks for substance. And the community is a bit more supporting than it appears. Some of us make it a point to privately reassure a newbie who runs into an attack dog early on that it's not something to take personally.
Size of the lute world
As a complete newbie, I've been a bit puzzled by some of the invective, but then I make a habit of occasionally contributing to the BBC 'Great Debate', just for the fun of it, and what goes on here, what little I've read of it, appears harmless in comparison. By and large, the lute list seems a superb institution, most contributors charming people, and I enjoy looking through the e-mails every day. My own speciality in the days when I was an academic was 12-tone, serial music, and what goes on in those circles puts any spats here in the shade. The battles that were, and still are fought, over Boulez and co. (my side of the fence) versus Shostakovitch, Vaughan Williams (in the UK), and the rest of the musical world that wants to stick its head on the musical sand and pretend the 20th century hasn't happened, were awesome to behold. A few lutenists scrapping over (as far as I can make out) facsimiles) is nothing to what has been going on since my far-off student days in Oxford. And I still stick to my guns all these years later. I won't have Shostakovitch in the house, nor any of the other 10th rate pretenders, while Boulez, Messiaen, Henze, Stockhausen and the rest of them rule the roost, at least till it gets too much for my wife and I have to turn the CD player down. A bit of a row over musical matters, as the Germans say, 'bringt Leben in die Bude', i.e. livens things up, and above all show that one cares about what one defends, and music can do with all the care and passion it can get these philistine days. I for one most certainly won't be put off playing the lute... Quite the contrary, if people are so passionate about it, then it's obviously a good thing to do. The whole thing, and the work Wayne has done, the lute music he's put on the internet and the rest of it, fabulous. Oh yes, the thing called 'Lute Archive', I've clicked and clicked away at the things there, but nothing comes up other than a sign saying something about me not having something I don't understand anyway. Is there yet more music to be had in the lute archive, and if so, how do I get hold of i? And if you should see this e-mail, Wayne, 100 thanks for all you've done. FANTASTIC! Cheers one and all Tom
Minestra di corde
Hypothetical, just for fun: It's January and you've played your last holiday gig that pays less than your transportation costs. By now you need to do a little lute maintenance but you find that in order to afford new strings and frets, you may have to eat the old ones. Is there any nutritional value at all in gut strings or frets? I know pets are interested in them. Any harmful chemicals introducued in the manufacture of the strings? Send your favorite recipes to the list! Leonard Williams [] (_) ~
Re: Minestra di corde
At 07:24 AM 12/7/03 -0500, Leonard Williams wrote: Hypothetical, just for fun: It's January and you've played your last holiday gig that pays less than your transportation costs. By now you need to do a little lute maintenance but you find that in order to afford new strings and frets, you may have to eat the old ones. Is there any nutritional value at all in gut strings or frets? I know pets are interested in them. Any harmful chemicals introducued in the manufacture of the strings? Send your favorite recipes to the list! http://www.gamutstrings.com/article/article.htm Mmmm, Mmmm!
Re: Minestra di corde
Leonard Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: Is there any nutritional value at all in gut strings or frets? I know pets are interested in them. Any harmful chemicals introducued in the manufacture of the strings? That is not only for fun. I was seriously told to thoroughly clean my hands after having played loaded guts because of the chemicals. I have been wondering about nylon, too. It's a common fabric for all kinds of garments, including women's stockings to be worn immediately on the skin. But how do you know there are no harmful remains, e.g. from old strings with some degree of decomposition? And how about nylgut? It is an entirely new development. Just wondering... -- Best wishes, Mathias Mathias Roesel, Grosze Annenstrasze 5, 28199 Bremen, Deutschland/ Germany, T/F +49 - 421 - 165 49 97, Fax +49 1805 060 334 480 67, E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Adopt-a-lutenist
Roman, thanks for mentioning these players. They will be receiving packages from me soon. Is it too much to hope there is a d-minor lute player in Ukraine or Russia? Joel Spears Here are a couple of baroquers: Vadim Borisenko ul. L.Gavro 11G. kv5 KIEV UKRAINE Andrey Yarovov Aviamotornaja st. 28 kv. 20, Rostov-on-Don, 344016 Russia RT Roman Turovsky wrote: Dmiry Lashkevish of Kiev has a 7-course instrument of ca. 60 cm. Anyone interested in helping him with strings (carbon fiber is fine) and music (he has a good taste and knows quite a bit, his wife is a singer), feel free: Dmitry Lashkevich B.Kitaevskaya ul. 10, kv.45 Kiev, 252028 UKRAINE RT
Re: Size of the lute world
Vance David R.- Points well taken. We each come from a different orientation but, for me, I'm more inclined to be more open to one's perspective if their position is presented with logic and courtesy rather than with insult and arrogance. Maybe it's just my perspective, but bad delivery taints the quality and the value of the information given. Mike Wilson - Original Message - From: Vance Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute list [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2003 11:27 PM Subject: Re: Size of the lute world Trouble is-a lot of them drop out or go underground because the group that should be supporting them and encouraging them is by far and away as friendly as a pack of junk yard dogs. As a whole I have never been exposed to a group, boasting interest passionately in a particular endeavor, that is more driven by ego, pride, condescension, duplicity and judgementalism. Before you get mad at me read through the posts that have flooded email servers world wide over the last week or so and ask yourself: If you were new to the Lute would you feel safe and confident in posting a question to this bunch of brigands? There are some fine people in this group that posses a wealth of knowledge but in asking a question you have to first consider what side of the fence you might fall on to and who is going to consider you one of theirs and one of his and one of yours. This is absurd and self destructive. I just wish every one would temper their opinions with a little good sense realizing that you or I don't like everyone and everyone does not like you or I. That's the truth of it BUT!!! we all love the Lute. Vance Wood.
Re: Size of the lute world
At 8:27 PM -0800 12/6/03, Vance Wood wrote: As a whole I have never been exposed to a group, boasting interest passionately in a particular endeavor, that is more driven by ego, pride, condescension, duplicity and judgementalism. Period attitudes for a period instrument? It sounds like 16th and 17th century Europe to me. However, today there probably there aren't enough lutenists for the flame wars to escalate into real wars. Ed Margerum
Test
Just a test to see why I haven't been eceiving any Lute ne - my apologies to everyone.
Re: Size of the lute world
Dear Ed: That's my point, the Lute community is too small as it is, why should we, by our behavior, keep it small or make it smaller? It seems to me that if there were more people interested in playing the Lute that there would be more business (bad word to some and I apologize) for Luthiers, publishers, and string makers a like. Look,--- if some things like this do not get commercialized to some degree no one would be able to get strings because no one would make them for free, and music would only be available to those near enough to a library that had manuscripts available for us to look at and copy out of. Of course that does not even mention the instrument itself. Most people would be forced to make do with a retuned Guitar or in my case make their own instrument, if there were not people out there that make their living producing these magical items. So if someone makes an income in the Lute world it is not likely that this is their only reason for getting involved with the Lute. But an interesting thing in this whole mess is that no one seems to find a way to criticize those individuals who have enough musical talent to make a living playing the bloody thing. Vance Wood. - Original Message - From: Ed Margerum [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute list [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2003 7:31 AM Subject: Re: Size of the lute world At 8:27 PM -0800 12/6/03, Vance Wood wrote: As a whole I have never been exposed to a group, boasting interest passionately in a particular endeavor, that is more driven by ego, pride, condescension, duplicity and judgementalism. Period attitudes for a period instrument? It sounds like 16th and 17th century Europe to me. However, today there probably there aren't enough lutenists for the flame wars to escalate into real wars. Ed Margerum
Re: Size of the lute world
Vance, I've been on the lute list serve for only a few months, and have been surprised by the vituperative nature of some of the messages that have been posted. I've been on the verge of taking myself off the list several times, because I find much of the heated discussion pointless and a waste of bandwidth. I have noticed that there is an ebb and flow to the flame wars that coincides with the full moon. We are just reaching a full moon right now and are also cresting on another flame war. If you watch the postings over the next month, I think you will find that in 21-28 days we are in the middle of another spate of heated emails. About a year ago the local newspaper did a study of crime statistics and interviewed police, and came to the conclusion that although the actual number of crimes rose only slightly during the full moon, the nature of the crimes changed, with the crimes being of a much more aggravated nature. The worst period was in the week before the actual full moon. During that week people tend to react more strongly to perceived offenses than they might otherwise. Perhaps some of those writing heated emails should check the moon phase, think twice, take a deep breath, let it out slowly, and delete their message. There are some truly awful things going on in the world today that merit heated discussions. The lute is not one of them. Tim Motz On Saturday, December 6, 2003, at 11:27 PM, Vance Wood wrote: Trouble is-a lot of them drop out or go underground because the group that should be supporting them and encouraging them is by far and away as friendly as a pack of junk yard dogs. As a whole I have never been exposed to a group, boasting interest passionately in a particular endeavor, that is more driven by ego, pride, condescension, duplicity and judgementalism. Before you get mad at me read through the posts that have flooded email servers world wide over the last week or so and ask yourself: If you were new to the Lute would you feel safe and confident in posting a question to this bunch of brigands? There are some fine people in this group that posses a wealth of knowledge but in asking a question you have to first consider what side of the fence you might fall on to and who is going to consider you one of theirs and one of his and one of yours. This is absurd and self destructive. I just wish every one would temper their opinions with a little good sense realizing that you or I don't like everyone and everyone does not like you or I. That's the truth of it BUT!!! we all love the Lute. Vance Wood. - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Daniel Shoskes [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2003 5:02 PM Subject: Re: Size of the lute world As I was deleting another repetitive pain in the ass flame post in the ongoing battle between the greedy billionaire lute publishers and the brave Trotskyist proletariat struggling to free the world's tablature I think I noticed an estimate of about 4000 lute players worldwide. Is this a reasonable estimate? No. I estimated a maximum of 3000. Would these range from serious players to people with a lute in the attic they haven't touched in 15 years? Include guitarists who tune their g string down a half step? Include the pipa and oud? Those people with a Lute Olsen signed basketball? No. It is based on membership lists of lute societies and Google sightings of unaffiliated players, with an added roach assumption that there is 1 more invisible lutenist to 2 already visibles. Also numbers of lute teachers and luthiers are taken into account. The number is expected to grow because several schools put out lutenists at a steady rate. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://turovsky.org http://polyhymnion.org
The Final Solution
I am now going to do my small part in preventing more flame wars: I'm going to get off this list, turn off my computer, and pick up my lute. 'Bye
R: Size of the lute world
Timothy Motz wrote: I have noticed that there is an ebb and flow to the flame wars that coincides with the full moon. We are just reaching a full moon right now Should we consider RT, MO, MT and all the fighting gang on this list belonging to the family of lycanthropes?!? WOW!!! Till now, we were told they belonged to the family of apes, sycophants and such. That would explain a lot of things, as this strange habit they have of discussing the same 'vexata questio' again and again, and every time with renovated, harsher personal insults. Thanks for your message that finally casts a shed of light on these otherwise obscure episodes. 8^ Seriously speaking, I really agree with you. I don't see any advantage for anyone in such sort of arguing. No one will move a millimeter out of his own position but, in the meantime, our mail boxes are flooded by a flow of insults, silliness and childish arguments that has nothing to do with the lute and the original argument of the discussion and that, I suppose, don't interest no one but the same few individuals that periodically give public show of things that they would better solve privately. Please, PLEASE, stop it, once and forever! Francesco
Re: Size of the lute world
Dear Timothy, now that I come to think of it, I had quite a difficult week... But usually I don't bother too much about those things, makes life more complicated than it is :-) Stephan Am 7 Dec 2003 um 12:27 hat Timothy Motz geschrieben: Vance, I've been on the lute list serve for only a few months, and have been surprised by the vituperative nature of some of the messages that have been posted. I've been on the verge of taking myself off the list several times, because I find much of the heated discussion pointless and a waste of bandwidth. I have noticed that there is an ebb and flow to the flame wars that coincides with the full moon. We are just reaching a full moon right now and are also cresting on another flame war. If you watch the postings over the next month, I think you will find that in 21-28 days we are in the middle of another spate of heated emails. About a year ago the local newspaper did a study of crime statistics and interviewed police, and came to the conclusion that although the actual number of crimes rose only slightly during the full moon, the nature of the crimes changed, with the crimes being of a much more aggravated nature. The worst period was in the week before the actual full moon. During that week people tend to react more strongly to perceived offenses than they might otherwise. Perhaps some of those writing heated emails should check the moon phase, think twice, take a deep breath, let it out slowly, and delete their message. There are some truly awful things going on in the world today that merit heated discussions. The lute is not one of them. Tim Motz On Saturday, December 6, 2003, at 11:27 PM, Vance Wood wrote: Trouble is-a lot of them drop out or go underground because the group that should be supporting them and encouraging them is by far and away as friendly as a pack of junk yard dogs. As a whole I have never been exposed to a group, boasting interest passionately in a particular endeavor, that is more driven by ego, pride, condescension, duplicity and judgementalism. Before you get mad at me read through the posts that have flooded email servers world wide over the last week or so and ask yourself: If you were new to the Lute would you feel safe and confident in posting a question to this bunch of brigands? There are some fine people in this group that posses a wealth of knowledge but in asking a question you have to first consider what side of the fence you might fall on to and who is going to consider you one of theirs and one of his and one of yours. This is absurd and self destructive. I just wish every one would temper their opinions with a little good sense realizing that you or I don't like everyone and everyone does not like you or I. That's the truth of it BUT!!! we all love the Lute. Vance Wood. - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Daniel Shoskes [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2003 5:02 PM Subject: Re: Size of the lute world As I was deleting another repetitive pain in the ass flame post in the ongoing battle between the greedy billionaire lute publishers and the brave Trotskyist proletariat struggling to free the world's tablature I think I noticed an estimate of about 4000 lute players worldwide. Is this a reasonable estimate? No. I estimated a maximum of 3000. Would these range from serious players to people with a lute in the attic they haven't touched in 15 years? Include guitarists who tune their g string down a half step? Include the pipa and oud? Those people with a Lute Olsen signed basketball? No. It is based on membership lists of lute societies and Google sightings of unaffiliated players, with an added roach assumption that there is 1 more invisible lutenist to 2 already visibles. Also numbers of lute teachers and luthiers are taken into account. The number is expected to grow because several schools put out lutenists at a steady rate. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://turovsky.org http://polyhymnion.org
Re: The Final Solution
I am now going to do my small part in preventing more flame wars: I'm going to get off this list, turn off my computer, and pick up my lute. 'Bye That's what I did this morning, and it felt GOOD. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://turovsky.org http://polyhymnion.org
Re: Size of the lute world
That's my point, the Lute community is too small as it is, why should we, by our behavior, keep it small or make it smaller? It seems to me that if there were more people interested in playing the Lute that there would be more business (bad word to some and I apologize) for Luthiers, publishers, and string makers a like. Look,--- if some things like this do not get commercialized to some degree no one would be able to get strings because no one would make them for free, and music would only be available to those near enough to a library that had manuscripts available for us to look at and copy out of. That is not untrue, but Lute is not yet like Piano that takes care of itself economically. It is a quasi-religious thing and it relies on proselytism to perpetuate itself. The equipment producers must be paid to keep them in existence, but at least some socialist distribution is essential to foment interest and awareness. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://turovsky.org http://polyhymnion.org
Re: A message to AOL users
On Sunday 07 December 2003 13:42, Wayne Cripps wrote: Hi As you may notice, I try and keep spam off of the lute list, and I feel that I have been mostly successful. I know you people can only see the spam that gets through the filters, but believe me, there is a lot of bad mail that doesn't get on to the lute list! Dear Wayne, why don't you check all e-mail to the lutelist if it's send by a valid subscribed listmember? If it's send by non-subscribed senders it should simply not be passed to other listmembers. You're doing by the way a wonderful job all these years. Except for the flame wars now and then it's a joy to read all these lute stuff every day (already many years). Thanks! Taco
Re: Size of the lute world, deja vu all over again
After posting my response last night to Vance Wood's junk yard dogs/band of brigands message, I checked the archive this morning and realized that he and I had pretty much the same exchange exactly one year ago (does something about Pearl Harbor Day trigger it, I wonder?) He told me then that my disagreeing with him proved his point (a useful rhetorical device which allows the user to declare victory in any situation), and I'll note the same response now and save him the trouble. Anyway, if you had a deja vu feeling about this, it was well founded, and I promise that when Vance complains about the hostility of the lute world next year at this time, I'll let it pass. Howard, I second that emotion, it seems that well after the flame wars have died down, Vance and a few others are trying to blow on the embers to keep it going. Vance, I've noticed you seem to throw out some contiversial topic to the list, then sit back and criticize everyone's response, like playing devils advocate. Personally, I don't mind hearing someone's passionate view on anything, I quite enjoy it, to me that's the spice of life. I said it once, and I'll say it again, nothing is worst than being a M-Y that hears, see's, and speaks no evil. One more thing, If Roman Trovosky was not on this list to entertain us, with his wit, and knowledge, I would be another one of those precious few that Vance is so terrified of loosing, disappearing forever into that horrible abyss, were nothing controversial, offensive, is ever heard, nor spoken, the land of the politically correct. Now that would be a crime. Michael Thames Luthier www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com Site design by Natalina Calia-Thames - Original Message - From: Howard Posner [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute list [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2003 1:40 PM Subject: Size of the lute world, deja vu all over again After posting my response last night to Vance Wood's junk yard dogs/band of brigands message, I checked the archive this morning and realized that he and I had pretty much the same exchange exactly one year ago (does something about Pearl Harbor Day trigger it, I wonder?) He told me then that my disagreeing with him proved his point (a useful rhetorical device which allows the user to declare victory in any situation), and I'll note the same response now and save him the trouble. Anyway, if you had a deja vu feeling about this, it was well founded, and I promise that when Vance complains about the hostility of the lute world next year at this time, I'll let it pass. Howard
Updates: Silvius Leopold Weiss
Dear Luteneers, Many thanks for your positive comments. I have made some amendments and will continue to update the site here. http://weissplucked.com/ Regards, Michael Stitt
Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world)
At 03:33 PM 12/7/2003 -0500, Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The truce more or less lasted until Doug Smith's campaign against Sautscheck. Thank you for confirming the reason and the rationale for your anti-MO abusive demagoguery. Matanya Ophee Editions Orphe'e, Inc., 1240 Clubview Blvd. N. Columbus, OH 43235-1226 Phone: 614-846-9517 Fax: 614-846-9794 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.orphee.com
Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world)
At 03:33 PM 12/7/2003 -0500, Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Then MO proceeded to insult Sephardim, and I took an exception to that Interesting perception. Me insulting Sephardim. My brother in law is a Sephardi, my son in law is a Sephardi and my four grand children are Sephardi. So what it was I said about Sephardim that was insulting? do refresh my memory. Matanya Ophee Editions Orphe'e, Inc., 1240 Clubview Blvd. N. Columbus, OH 43235-1226 Phone: 614-846-9517 Fax: 614-846-9794 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.orphee.com
Re: Size of the lute world
At 02:45 PM 12/7/2003 -0500, Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Look,--- if some things like this do not get commercialized to some degree no one would be able to get strings because no one would make them for free, and music would only be available to those near enough to a library that had manuscripts available for us to look at and copy out of. That is not untrue, but Lute is not yet like Piano that takes care of itself economically. The lute has never been like any of the other instrument. It was always on the outside looking in, and as the Sieur Perrine noted in 1697, it will always continue to be there, as long as lutenists insist on a notational system that is not shared by other musicians. There is no reason to believe that the lute in our time will be more successful in reaching the status of the piano, or even that of the guitar, different than it was at any other time in history. It is a quasi-religious thing and it relies on proselytism to perpetuate itself. This is a statement I can easily agree with. The problem is that this proselytizing can never achieve any results when the emphasis is not on the music but on the instrument and its notational peculiarities. Most of the people in this group and in other lute groups have come on to the instrument through the music, not the other way around. Hence the best possible avenue for proselytizing is making the _music_ available to people who can read it and play. Eventually, people become curious and seek out the instrument itself. It happened before. No one becomes a lutenist by having free access to on line facsimiles of lute tablature. The equipment producers must be paid to keep them in existence, but at least some socialist distribution is essential to foment interest and awareness. That is a political point of view which is simply unrealistic. It lies in the basic contradiction between hardware and software. The only reason socialist distribution is applied here to the music, is because it can be done with impunity. Only a few days ago we were told by one enthusiast that the only reason he does not copy Michel Cardin's CDs is because he does not know how to do it. IOW, he has no compunction about producing illegal copies of 9 CDs thus depriving the performer of royalty income to which he is entitled. No one talks about a socialist distribution of instruments and hardware accessories. RT's Add-a-Lutenist pitch is not socialist distribution. It is charity. And as for socialism in general: do tell me how many lutenists there are in Cuba, Vietnam or North Korea? Keeping the equipment producers in existence, and at the same time preaching for socialist distribution, is thus a self cancelling paradigm. You can't have it both ways. Matanya Ophee Editions Orphe'e, Inc., 1240 Clubview Blvd. N. Columbus, OH 43235-1226 Phone: 614-846-9517 Fax: 614-846-9794 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.orphee.com
Re: Size of the lute world
Well, well, well.. This means that the life on the lute list will finally attain the liveliness it deserves, it will be a true microcosm. Boulez bashing is one of my favorite things to do. We also have a Morton Feldman acolyte on the list, but he hasn't been heard from in months. RT (who is diligently working to fill 13-lute with Shostakovich's spirit) Vodka? :-) Stewart McCoy. Unlike Boulez and Feldman he was a man of sobiety. I, on the other hand, am about to pour myself a shot of 16 year old Lagavullin. RT
Re: Size of the lute world
Za mir y druzhbu. :-) Stewart McCoy. RT (who is diligently working to fill 13-lute with Shostakovich's spirit) Vodka? :-) Stewart McCoy. Unlike Boulez and Feldman he was a man of sobiety. I, on the other hand, am about to pour myself a shot of 16 year old Lagavullin. RT
Re: Size of the lute world
Tim, Your observations about the lunar cyclical nature of our lunatic side, when it comes to the flame wars, are truly inspired. Another successful method of handling differences is to grant righteousness to a protagonist on the basis of the day of the month i.e. whether it is odd or even. For couples, for example, one is classified as an even person and the other odd. So, if there is a spat on Dec. 7th, the odd person is right whatever the arguments. But if the fight is on the next day (Dec. 8th) the other person is right no matter what. Remarkable how it effectively defuses things. Maybe something like this could be applied to this list. These periodic flame episodes, as we all observe, have nothing to do with the lute. They have to do with our tiresome attribute of self importance. In this respect our behaviour is more like that of leeches than simians, rhinos, junk yard dogs etc. Those of us who are pathologically needy of self importance will jump on to any exposed vein of somebody else's self importance and suck it out mercilessly in an attempt to boost our own. Moral: When your self importance is affronted, just let it go. Otherwise you may get sucked in (and sucked out too)! When a flame war starts, laughter is the best medicine. A bit of speed reading, and a quick finger on the delete button deals with it quite rapidly. Eventually the war subsides (for a time at least, hopefully!) Miles Dempster Vance, I've been on the lute list serve for only a few months, and have been surprised by the vituperative nature of some of the messages that have been posted. I've been on the verge of taking myself off the list several times, because I find much of the heated discussion pointless and a waste of bandwidth. I have noticed that there is an ebb and flow to the flame wars that coincides with the full moon. We are just reaching a full moon right now and are also cresting on another flame war. If you watch the postings over the next month, I think you will find that in 21-28 days we are in the middle of another spate of heated emails. About a year ago the local newspaper did a study of crime statistics and interviewed police, and came to the conclusion that although the actual number of crimes rose only slightly during the full moon, the nature of the crimes changed, with the crimes being of a much more aggravated nature. The worst period was in the week before the actual full moon. During that week people tend to react more strongly to perceived offenses than they might otherwise. Perhaps some of those writing heated emails should check the moon phase, think twice, take a deep breath, let it out slowly, and delete their message. There are some truly awful things going on in the world today that merit heated discussions. The lute is not one of them. Tim Motz On Saturday, December 6, 2003, at 11:27 PM, Vance Wood wrote: Trouble is-a lot of them drop out or go underground because the group that should be supporting them and encouraging them is by far and away as friendly as a pack of junk yard dogs. As a whole I have never been exposed to a group, boasting interest passionately in a particular endeavor, that is more driven by ego, pride, condescension, duplicity and judgementalism. Before you get mad at me read through the posts that have flooded email servers world wide over the last week or so and ask yourself: If you were new to the Lute would you feel safe and confident in posting a question to this bunch of brigands? There are some fine people in this group that posses a wealth of knowledge but in asking a question you have to first consider what side of the fence you might fall on to and who is going to consider you one of theirs and one of his and one of yours. This is absurd and self destructive. I just wish every one would temper their opinions with a little good sense realizing that you or I don't like everyone and everyone does not like you or I. That's the truth of it BUT!!! we all love the Lute. Vance Wood. - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Daniel Shoskes [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2003 5:02 PM Subject: Re: Size of the lute world As I was deleting another repetitive pain in the ass flame post in the ongoing battle between the greedy billionaire lute publishers and the brave Trotskyist proletariat struggling to free the world's tablature I think I noticed an estimate of about 4000 lute players worldwide. Is this a reasonable estimate? No. I estimated a maximum of 3000. Would these range from serious players to people with a lute in the attic they haven't touched in 15 years? Include guitarists who tune their g string down a half step? Include the pipa and oud? Those people with a Lute Olsen signed basketball? No. It is based on membership lists of lute societies and Google sightings
Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world)
Matanya, Please address this issue privately with RT. Thanks On Sunday, December 7, 2003, at 03:57 PM, Matanya Ophee wrote: At 03:33 PM 12/7/2003 -0500, Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Then MO proceeded to insult Sephardim, and I took an exception to that Interesting perception. Me insulting Sephardim. My brother in law is a Sephardi, my son in law is a Sephardi and my four grand children are Sephardi. So what it was I said about Sephardim that was insulting? do refresh my memory. Matanya Ophee Editions Orphe'e, Inc., 1240 Clubview Blvd. N. Columbus, OH 43235-1226 Phone: 614-846-9517 Fax: 614-846-9794 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.orphee.com
Re: Size of the lute world
Matanya wrote, . Only a few days ago we were told by one enthusiast that the only reason he does not copy Michel Cardin's CDs is because he does not know how to do it. IOW, he has no compunction about producing illegal copies of 9 CDs thus depriving the performer of royalty income to which he is entitled. Oh Mantanya Of course I know how to do it, the point is I didn't. Michael Thames Luthier www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com Site design by Natalina Calia-Thames - Original Message - From: Matanya Ophee [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2003 3:21 PM Subject: Re: Size of the lute world At 02:45 PM 12/7/2003 -0500, Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Look,--- if some things like this do not get commercialized to some degree no one would be able to get strings because no one would make them for free, and music would only be available to those near enough to a library that had manuscripts available for us to look at and copy out of. That is not untrue, but Lute is not yet like Piano that takes care of itself economically. The lute has never been like any of the other instrument. It was always on the outside looking in, and as the Sieur Perrine noted in 1697, it will always continue to be there, as long as lutenists insist on a notational system that is not shared by other musicians. There is no reason to believe that the lute in our time will be more successful in reaching the status of the piano, or even that of the guitar, different than it was at any other time in history. It is a quasi-religious thing and it relies on proselytism to perpetuate itself. This is a statement I can easily agree with. The problem is that this proselytizing can never achieve any results when the emphasis is not on the music but on the instrument and its notational peculiarities. Most of the people in this group and in other lute groups have come on to the instrument through the music, not the other way around. Hence the best possible avenue for proselytizing is making the _music_ available to people who can read it and play. Eventually, people become curious and seek out the instrument itself. It happened before. No one becomes a lutenist by having free access to on line facsimiles of lute tablature. The equipment producers must be paid to keep them in existence, but at least some socialist distribution is essential to foment interest and awareness. That is a political point of view which is simply unrealistic. It lies in the basic contradiction between hardware and software. The only reason socialist distribution is applied here to the music, is because it can be done with impunity. Only a few days ago we were told by one enthusiast that the only reason he does not copy Michel Cardin's CDs is because he does not know how to do it. IOW, he has no compunction about producing illegal copies of 9 CDs thus depriving the performer of royalty income to which he is entitled. No one talks about a socialist distribution of instruments and hardware accessories. RT's Add-a-Lutenist pitch is not socialist distribution. It is charity. And as for socialism in general: do tell me how many lutenists there are in Cuba, Vietnam or North Korea? Keeping the equipment producers in existence, and at the same time preaching for socialist distribution, is thus a self cancelling paradigm. You can't have it both ways. Matanya Ophee Editions Orphe'e, Inc., 1240 Clubview Blvd. N. Columbus, OH 43235-1226 Phone: 614-846-9517 Fax: 614-846-9794 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.orphee.com
Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world)
At 05:28 PM 12/7/2003 -0500, you wrote: Matanya, Please address this issue privately with RT. I am sorry, but the issue of publishers being ripped off by socialist do gooders is not a personal matter. It is a public issue, and as a publisher yourself it should concern you too. If you do not feel concerned, that's your choice to make. Besides, I resent the insinuation that the I have to do anything with this flame war. It was started by Michael Thames addressing me as Montana and by Romany Turovsky referring to me as a mixture of yeast and fecal matter. If the flame bothers you so much, please address the initial culprits. Matanya Ophee Editions Orphe'e, Inc., 1240 Clubview Blvd. N. Columbus, OH 43235-1226 Phone: 614-846-9517 Fax: 614-846-9794 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.orphee.com
Bulk?
Any one know why my lutelist stuff is winding up in my bulk mail folder on Yahoo? Sal __ Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing. http://photos.yahoo.com/
Re: Size of the lute world
Try bike racing (not that I was ever any great shakes as a racer, but I did stick it out for three years). Beginners are generally expected to prove themselves worthy before anyone will give you the time of day. I've found the lute world far more accepting and supportive. I showed up at my first LSA in '95 with very modest ability and an old tank of a German heavy lute. By the end of the week I been gently told how the design of the instrument was limiting what I could do, but otherwise was treated as one of the gang and learned a great deal. I won't claim to have acquired any great skill since, but it certainly wasn't because of a lack of encouragement from fellow lutenists on this list or elsewhere. Guy - Original Message - From: Vance Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute list [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2003 8:27 PM Subject: Re: Size of the lute world Trouble is-a lot of them drop out or go underground because the group that should be supporting them and encouraging them is by far and away as friendly as a pack of junk yard dogs. As a whole I have never been exposed to a group, boasting interest passionately in a particular endeavor, that is more driven by ego, pride, condescension, duplicity and judgementalism. Before you get mad at me read through the posts that have flooded email servers world wide over the last week or so and ask yourself: If you were new to the Lute would you feel safe and confident in posting a question to this bunch of brigands? There are some fine people in this group that posses a wealth of knowledge but in asking a question you have to first consider what side of the fence you might fall on to and who is going to consider you one of theirs and one of his and one of yours. This is absurd and self destructive. I just wish every one would temper their opinions with a little good sense realizing that you or I don't like everyone and everyone does not like you or I. That's the truth of it BUT!!! we all love the Lute. Vance Wood. - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Daniel Shoskes [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2003 5:02 PM Subject: Re: Size of the lute world As I was deleting another repetitive pain in the ass flame post in the ongoing battle between the greedy billionaire lute publishers and the brave Trotskyist proletariat struggling to free the world's tablature I think I noticed an estimate of about 4000 lute players worldwide. Is this a reasonable estimate? No. I estimated a maximum of 3000. Would these range from serious players to people with a lute in the attic they haven't touched in 15 years? Include guitarists who tune their g string down a half step? Include the pipa and oud? Those people with a Lute Olsen signed basketball? No. It is based on membership lists of lute societies and Google sightings of unaffiliated players, with an added roach assumption that there is 1 more invisible lutenist to 2 already visibles. Also numbers of lute teachers and luthiers are taken into account. The number is expected to grow because several schools put out lutenists at a steady rate. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://turovsky.org http://polyhymnion.org
Re: The Final Solution
Roman wrote: I am now going to do my small part in preventing more flame wars: I'm going to get off this list, turn off my computer, and pick up my lute. 'Bye That's what I did this morning, and it felt GOOD. You can't have done what David did. I believe he was talking about un-sub-ing from this list altogether. You're still here. Craig
Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world)
Matanya wrote, It was started by Michael Thames addressing me as Montana and by Romany Turovsky referring to me as a mixture of yeast and fecal matter. If the flame bothers you so much, please address the initial culprits From MT, It started between Albert and myself , after asking the now famous question about copyrights on facsimile, after pondering the input I was receiving, I decided the best thing was to ask Albert, I sent him an email, very politely asking his permission to post facsimile on my site in exchange for advertising. Thinking he received my letter, and getting his rather over the top response, I wrote him back a nasty letter. After realizing the mix up between the letters, I promptly apologized to Albert and the entire lute list, for my over the top response. End of story!!! After that is when you first appeared, butting in and insulting my intelligence. The rest as they say is history. By the way, you think we have it bad on the lute list. We should be thankful were not guitarists. They have to listen to this neo nazi bastard all the time, as many of them tell me he completely dominates their list, with nothing but negative crap! Michael Thames Luthier www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com Site design by Natalina Calia-Thames - Original Message - From: Matanya Ophee [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2003 6:19 PM Subject: Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world) At 05:28 PM 12/7/2003 -0500, you wrote: Matanya, Please address this issue privately with RT. I am sorry, but the issue of publishers being ripped off by socialist do gooders is not a personal matter. It is a public issue, and as a publisher yourself it should concern you too. If you do not feel concerned, that's your choice to make. Besides, I resent the insinuation that the I have to do anything with this flame war. It was started by Michael Thames addressing me as Montana and by Romany Turovsky referring to me as a mixture of yeast and fecal matter. If the flame bothers you so much, please address the initial culprits. Matanya Ophee Editions Orphe'e, Inc., 1240 Clubview Blvd. N. Columbus, OH 43235-1226 Phone: 614-846-9517 Fax: 614-846-9794 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.orphee.com
Re: Bulk?
Hi, Don't know for sure, but shortly after I started deleting whole groups of Lute List messages without reading them (I'm also on the list in a different mail system) Yahoo started to send first, only a few, then all the Lute List mail to my bulk. I tried transfering lots of the messages to my in box without reading them first a few days ago, but that did not seem to change anything. The only thing I know to suggest is you move them in bulk (no pun intended) to your in box. They pretty much read and transfer as well in Bulk as in the in box, though. Regards, Steve --- Sal Salvaggio [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Any one know why my lutelist stuff is winding up in my bulk mail folder on Yahoo? Sal __ Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing. http://photos.yahoo.com/ __ Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing. http://photos.yahoo.com/
