Re: Acrimony in pop music.
America has no troubadour, and never has had one. The country is too wide and too variegated to ever make a national poet, or bard (and do remember the difference between the early bard, and his accompanyment). The Irish bards (and the Greek ones) sang of the lives and deeds of heros and maidens, in a culture that lasted for centuries. As did the troubadours of Medieval Europe. Cultures that for all the wars and changes were yet in stasis for long periods of time. Perhaps, if you define America (US) as being a culture that began in the 1960's (something that many might), then you could call BD (BZ) our songster - or Tom Wait, but I confess I have never heard of him. But if you want to find our troubadour you might look to the anonymous songs in the Alan Lomax collections (and his father) in the Library of Congress. Which is more American? Sweet Betsey From Pike or Lay Lady Lay? Read the words of Yankee Doodle Dandy, and understand them - a song written to put down the colonists as unsophisticated and then taken up by them as a paean to their pride. The closest to a bard who chronicals the American experience is probably Woodie Guthrie, whose melodies were all borrowed. Pete Seegar, his friend, has changed the context of some with a few words. But Guthrie sang of the Reuben James, and of the trials and tribulations of migrant workers. He sang the praises of the Grand Coulee Dam, and the depradations of modernization. Listen to all of his songs, in the original versions, and you may find a bit of Sweet Betsey and a bit of Jacob Riis. An understanding of the teeming cities and the immigrants, and an understanding of the manifest destiny. Were we to choose the culture of the immediate and popular then Brittany Spears would be our troubadour, and ten minutes ago it would have been someone else. Best, Jon
Re: passionate gut
I ask a question of you all, in the light of this thread. It has been mentioned that the quality of gut and its processing has improved. But yet many on the list have a thing about being original. Not to denigrate that, I'm in the process of doing the same with a Celtic harp from ancient drawings. But to be consistant, the modern purchased gut must be different than the selected gut of several centuries ago, when the musician was instructed how to look at it (was that on this list, or in the string history of one of the member's web sites). So it would seem that just because it is called gut, and made from animal tissue, it may not be exactly the gut that was used by the old musicians. I have a model of 1842 (made in 1849 at Springfield armory) musket. I shoot it, with black power (a modern powder would burst it). But despite that, I'm not shooting the same weapon that the lads did in the Civil War. The musket is the same (and probably was used in that war), but the black powder I buy is far more consistent than that which they used. Imagine having to string your lute with cattle gut by making the strings from various strips of innards. Can one really say that the purchased gut of today matches the gut of yesteryear. I would have to assume that two lutenist, with similar instruments, would have a different sound depending on how (or who) the strings were made. Nothing is perfect, and to often we seek a perfection when there is no perfection to match. The choice of nylon, nylgut or gut is yours - and that of your lute (what works best for the instrument). But that choice isn't indicative of historical accuracy, as I doubt that there is such since it would have varied. Best, Jon
Re: passionate gut
hear! bloody! hear! historically informed performance has more to do with history in the abstract and scholarship than it does with music. to believe that what is played today is the same as what was played hundreds of years ago is pure conceit. to dismiss a performance as somehow in-genuine because of some stultifying historical criteria is pure arrogance. spring is here, the grass is ris' wonder where the sunshine is? - bill On Lunedì, apr 12, 2004, at 12:29 Europe/Rome, Jon Murphy wrote: The choice of nylon, nylgut or gut is yours - and that of your lute (what works best for the instrument). But that choice isn't indicative of historical accuracy, as I doubt that there is such since it would have varied.
Re: passionate gut
Dear Bill in your transition from synthetic to gut, did you stop at nylgut along the way? I used nylgut for a while on a 19th guitar. It is a dead string. It combines the worst characteristics of nylon with those of gut. Hence the name. No beauty in the sound, not good articulation, false (it streches more in the middle than at the ends I think) and not stable in pitch. I have lute pupils and collegeas who play on nylgut: awful. The only good thing it did for me was point me in the direction of something other than carbon. I have a few 0.40 and 0.42 nylgut strings in my lute case in case of an emergency (a 415 instrument that has to be tuned up to 440 or worse, 466), luckily, I have never had to use it yet. The thin gut strings have hold out so far. expense to consider plus the use of plectrum (although a very soft one) which may cause the strings to fall out of tune. I have gut on my baroque guitar. After an evening of rough strumming in an orchestra the first string (single, 0.47mm) tends to be frayed beyond recognition, but not broken or out of tune. I use cheap Sofracob here, so no harm done financially either. Yours David
Re: passionate gut
Dear Stephan builder next door... How much is the difference in diameter of gut and overspun bass strings in your experience? Did your lutes need reworking? I had to drill tuning pegs and bridge holes. I used a small 'finger' drill. Shape of a pencil, replacable drill bits, for sale in the US. In Japan I found them in fixed sizes, less than 1 euro a piece (in the famous 100YEN shops).On the nut I had to widen some of the grooves, and place the grooves for the octave strings more away from the fundamentals to avoid buzzing. Scary jobs with the first lute, but no problem at all with the rest. The really thick basses (2.20mm) are up to 1mm thicker than Kuerschner VN overspun basses. But it depends on the actual string type you're choosing, of course. Yours David Best regards, Stephan Am 11 Apr 2004 um 13:38 hat LGS-Europe geschrieben: Again, some gutsy stories for those who are still doubting wether they should change to gut or not. In Holland we have a passion season: many performances of the St. Matthew and St. John Passions by Bach just before Easter. Before I changed my archlute to gut I was affraid of the passion season. So many concerts in a row, one day 440, the next 415. Lots of different venues, lots of travelling. This year's adventures: St. John at 415 in small, very hot and full church (Waalse Kerk) in Amsterdam. No rehearsal. Tuning was ok till about half way. I could not keep courses 5, 6 and 7 in tune with the cello, so in the last two aria's I played continuo on only the top 4 courses. Which was beautiful, by the way. St. Matthew at 415 without break (!) in large church (Domkerk) in Utrecht. Archlute and baroque guitar. Tuning was no problem at all. But the first string on the archlute (new just before the general rehearsal) broke in the final chorus during the perfromance, it had lasted only 6 hours of playing. But, again, resulting in interesting continuo. ;-) Three times St. John at 415 in different locations, travelling a lot in between. No problems at all with tuning. Twice St. Matthew, only the 'Komm, suesses Kreuz' aria at 440 (same strings, even the 0.40mm first string!) with a modern orhcestra in a huge church (St. Laurens Kerk Alkmaar) and the Concertgebouw Amsterdam. In the church no tuning problems at all, basses were more stable than Kuerschner wound basses have ever been for me. In the Concertgebouw (no tuning break!) I could keep courses 6 and 7 in tune with 'silent' tuning during the concert, but course 5 was too low. During my solo I could adjust the fretted notes on course 5, but not open course 5. More interesting than the tuning was the sound. I have been playing passions on this archlute (64cm Hasenfuss) for many years with nails on carbon and Kuerschner overspun basses. Which worked fine enough, though the sound was rather sharp and aggressive. This year for the first time fingertips and all gut. The lute was much better to hear in every location, much warmer in sound and better blending with the other instruments. Also in the middle register in the solo in St. John (Betrachte, meine Seele), which always was a problem before. Many people in the different orchestras came to me to ask me what I had done to get this 'new' and better sound, they noticed even without me telling them beforehand about my new strings! People in the audience came to tell me the sound was so nice. 'Knowledgable' friends in the audience were impressed with the guts; they told me the sound was so much more personal and the articulation was so much more clear. They noticed. All in all, a positive experience. David * David van Ooijen Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Http://home.planet.nl/~d.v.ooijen/ * Read about my latest Japanese CD and hear a sample at http://home.planet.nl/~d.v.ooijen/david/ensembles/chiyomi.html Deze e-mail is door E-mail VirusScanner van Planet Internet gecontroleerd op virussen. Op http://www.planet.nl/evs staat een verwijzing naar de actuele lijst waar op wordt gecontroleerd.
plectrum and lute
dear all - mostly because it's a holiday and it's raining and i'm running out of excuses to not do my scales... i'm curious to know if any of you play lute with a plectrum. if so: - how many courses does your instrument have? - what kind of strings to you use? - what is your plectrum made of? .. - from what period is the music you play? .. - if you prefer using plectrum, why? just idle curiosity. regards - bill
RE: Acrimony in pop music.
Jon is right: there is no single national troubadour. Maybe any country, despite our lingering notions of organicism, is too variegated for truly national bards. Maybe it's something we impose on those largely silent people from the past whom we conveniently collectivize as das Volk. Just as Woody Guthrie sang of Reuben James, so Bob Dylan sang of Hurricane Reuben Carter, not to mention John Wesley Harding, Tom Paine, and the sacrifice of Isaac on Highway 61. But national bard? Who would that be? I stumble at the imagined hootenanny where Wallace Stevens, harmonica frame around his neck and guitar over his shoulder, yawps about the palm at the end of the mind. Yet in his own way he captures an American spirit flowing from Walt Whitman forward. And no less than Dylan, Waits or Guthrie are Son House and Louis Armstrong. The Lomax Collection (and the several related series issued by Rounder records) is worth a thousand Mt. Rushmores. Stephen W. Gibson -Original Message- From: Jon Murphy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, April 12, 2004 4:17 AM To: LUTE-LIST; Roman Turovsky Subject: Re: Acrimony in pop music. America has no troubadour, and never has had one. The country is too wide and too variegated to ever make a national poet, or bard (and do remember the difference between the early bard, and his accompanyment). The Irish bards (and the Greek ones) sang of the lives and deeds of heros and maidens, in a culture that lasted for centuries. As did the troubadours of Medieval Europe. Cultures that for all the wars and changes were yet in stasis for long periods of time. Perhaps, if you define America (US) as being a culture that began in the 1960's (something that many might), then you could call BD (BZ) our songster - or Tom Wait, but I confess I have never heard of him. But if you want to find our troubadour you might look to the anonymous songs in the Alan Lomax collections (and his father) in the Library of Congress. Which is more American? Sweet Betsey From Pike or Lay Lady Lay? Read the words of Yankee Doodle Dandy, and understand them - a song written to put down the colonists as unsophisticated and then taken up by them as a paean to their pride. The closest to a bard who chronicals the American experience is probably Woodie Guthrie, whose melodies were all borrowed. Pete Seegar, his friend, has changed the context of some with a few words. But Guthrie sang of the Reuben James, and of the trials and tribulations of migrant workers. He sang the praises of the Grand Coulee Dam, and the depradations of modernization. Listen to all of his songs, in the original versions, and you may find a bit of Sweet Betsey and a bit of Jacob Riis. An understanding of the teeming cities and the immigrants, and an understanding of the manifest destiny. Were we to choose the culture of the immediate and popular then Brittany Spears would be our troubadour, and ten minutes ago it would have been someone else. Best, Jon
Re: passionate gut
At 12:00 PM 04/12/2004 +0200, LGS-Europe wrote: I used nylgut for a while on a 19th guitar. It is a dead string. It combines the worst characteristics of nylon with those of gut. Hence the name. No beauty in the sound, not good articulation, false (it streches more in the middle than at the ends I think) and not stable in pitch. I have lute pupils and collegeas who play on nylgut: awful. The only good thing it did for me was point me in the direction of something other than carbon. I have a few 0.40 and 0.42 nylgut strings in my lute case in case of an emergency (a 415 instrument that has to be tuned up to 440 or worse, 466), luckily, I have never had to use it yet. The thin gut strings have hold out so far. I definitely favor the sound of gut over synthetics on instruments intended for gut. To play devil's advocate for just a moment, however, there are some notables who sing Nylgut's praises. Paul O'Dette favors gut in the studio or when performing in stable climes, but tours with Nylgut and loudly celebrates the virtue of its pitch not responding to humidity. I tend to favor Nylgut over stock nylon, but again, I favor the sound of gut over either.
Re: passionate gut
In a message dated 4/12/2004 8:01:31 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I definitely favor the sound of gut over synthetics on instruments intended for gut. To play devil's advocate for just a moment, however, there are some notables who sing Nylgut's praises. Paul O'Dette favors gut in the studio or when performing in stable climes, but tours with Nylgut and loudly celebrates the virtue of its pitch not responding to humidity. I tend to favor Nylgut over stock nylon, but again, I favor the sound of gut over either. I agree, gut is the best sound overall; but depending on who made the instrument and who is playing it, nylgut can sound quite good. I think the better the quality of the instrument, the better it can sound with nylon, nylgut, carbon, etc. Sincerely, James --
Re: passionate gut
I agree, gut is the best sound overall; but depending on who made the instrument and who is playing it, nylgut can sound quite good. I think the better the quality of the instrument, the better it can sound with nylon, nylgut, carbon, etc. Not to mention one's hand. Gut (so much thicker in gage) would necessitate such a saddle-width increase that I (small handed) wouldn't be able play at all. RT
Re: passionate gut
In a message dated 4/12/2004 11:34:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time, JEdwardsMusic writes: I agree, gut is the best sound overall; but depending on who made the instrument and who is playing it, nylgut can sound quite good. This is so true. Paul O'Dette can string a lute with a ball of yarn, as far as I'm concerned, and he'd still sound godly. Ronn McFarlane almost invariably plays lutes with all synthetic strings. I've heard lots of amateur players with great lutes and the best gut strings who still have far to go in terms of sound productions. By the way, an upcoming LSA Quarterly will feature an article by Ronn McFarlane on tone production in his new column series on the Art and Science of Playing the Lute. Kenneth
Re: plectrum and lute
Dear Bill, Kenneth and All: I also have a Larry Brown five-course lute, which I play fairly often (including earlier today). I play solos and duets, and also consort music with my medieval group, Armonia Nova. At first I favored a long skinny oud plectrum, and experimented with ostrich feathers and turkey quills. Once I heard myself recorded, however, I decided the sound was too thin and slappy -- too much plectrum noise. I switched to a very heavy (1.5 mm) Plec (name of maker) plectrum with a blunt tip, which enables me to produce a rounder, fuller tone with less chiff on the front end. I find the recorded sound much more satisfying. Recorded? Why recorded? Because I've found that my ears can deceive me while I'm playing. Listening to a recorded version, I think, is a more accurate guage of tone quality. Try it. It's like hearing your own voice recorded for the first time. Perhaps not for the faint of heart! Yours, Jim bill [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: lute society [EMAIL PROTECTED] irgilio.it cc: Subject: plectrum and lute 04/12/2004 09:15 AM dear all - mostly because it's a holiday and it's raining and i'm running out of excuses to not do my scales... i'm curious to know if any of you play lute with a plectrum. if so: - how many courses does your instrument have? - what kind of strings to you use? - what is your plectrum made of? . - from what period is the music you play? . - if you prefer using plectrum, why? just idle curiosity. regards - bill
RE: plectrum and lute
Does anyone out there play an oud? If so, where did you get it? Stephen W. Gibson -Original Message- From: James A Stimson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, April 12, 2004 2:14 PM To: bill Cc: lute society Subject: Re: plectrum and lute Dear Bill, Kenneth and All: I also have a Larry Brown five-course lute, which I play fairly often (including earlier today). I play solos and duets, and also consort music with my medieval group, Armonia Nova. At first I favored a long skinny oud plectrum, and experimented with ostrich feathers and turkey quills. Once I heard myself recorded, however, I decided the sound was too thin and slappy -- too much plectrum noise. I switched to a very heavy (1.5 mm) Plec (name of maker) plectrum with a blunt tip, which enables me to produce a rounder, fuller tone with less chiff on the front end. I find the recorded sound much more satisfying. Recorded? Why recorded? Because I've found that my ears can deceive me while I'm playing. Listening to a recorded version, I think, is a more accurate guage of tone quality. Try it. It's like hearing your own voice recorded for the first time. Perhaps not for the faint of heart! Yours, Jim bill [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: lute society [EMAIL PROTECTED] irgilio.it cc: Subject: plectrum and lute 04/12/2004 09:15 AM dear all - mostly because it's a holiday and it's raining and i'm running out of excuses to not do my scales... i'm curious to know if any of you play lute with a plectrum. if so: - how many courses does your instrument have? - what kind of strings to you use? - what is your plectrum made of? . - from what period is the music you play? . - if you prefer using plectrum, why? just idle curiosity. regards - bill
Re: plectrum and lute
- Original Message - From: Stephen W. Gibson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'James A Stimson' [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'bill' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: 'lute society' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, April 12, 2004 9:26 PM Subject: RE: plectrum and lute Does anyone out there play an oud? Yes I do. If so, where did you get it? Iraq. Ronny Stephen W. Gibson -Original Message- From: James A Stimson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, April 12, 2004 2:14 PM To: bill Cc: lute society Subject: Re: plectrum and lute Dear Bill, Kenneth and All: I also have a Larry Brown five-course lute, which I play fairly often (including earlier today). I play solos and duets, and also consort music with my medieval group, Armonia Nova. At first I favored a long skinny oud plectrum, and experimented with ostrich feathers and turkey quills. Once I heard myself recorded, however, I decided the sound was too thin and slappy -- too much plectrum noise. I switched to a very heavy (1.5 mm) Plec (name of maker) plectrum with a blunt tip, which enables me to produce a rounder, fuller tone with less chiff on the front end. I find the recorded sound much more satisfying. Recorded? Why recorded? Because I've found that my ears can deceive me while I'm playing. Listening to a recorded version, I think, is a more accurate guage of tone quality. Try it. It's like hearing your own voice recorded for the first time. Perhaps not for the faint of heart! Yours, Jim bill [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: lute society [EMAIL PROTECTED] irgilio.it cc: Subject: plectrum and lute 04/12/2004 09:15 AM dear all - mostly because it's a holiday and it's raining and i'm running out of excuses to not do my scales... i'm curious to know if any of you play lute with a plectrum. if so: - how many courses does your instrument have? - what kind of strings to you use? - what is your plectrum made of? . - from what period is the music you play? . - if you prefer using plectrum, why? just idle curiosity. regards - bill
Vihuela acanalada with cocobolo ribs
For those who're interested in fluted-back vihuelas! I've just uploaded more pictures of the recently finished vihuela in G with ribs in cocobolo. Gorgeous wood! Have a look at: http://www.lewesguitarmakers.co.uk/pages/alexander/vihuela2003.html
Re: plectrum and lute
james - don't mind ronnie... i'm told you can get a beautiful oud from the following luther for $119.00 (for a beginner model). of course, you can pay thousands - the choice is up to you: www.eraydinsazevi.com.tr for information and general chit-chat have a look at this site: www.mikeouds.com you will not regret buying an oud. it's a vivacious, dynamic, versatile instrument - offers so much more than a lute. sincerely - bill On Lunedì, apr 12, 2004, at 21:26 Europe/Rome, Stephen W. Gibson wrote: Does anyone out there play an oud? If so, where did you get it? Stephen W. Gibson -Original Message- From: James A Stimson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, April 12, 2004 2:14 PM To: bill Cc: lute society Subject: Re: plectrum and lute Dear Bill, Kenneth and All: I also have a Larry Brown five-course lute, which I play fairly often (including earlier today). I play solos and duets, and also consort music with my medieval group, Armonia Nova. At first I favored a long skinny oud plectrum, and experimented with ostrich feathers and turkey quills. Once I heard myself recorded, however, I decided the sound was too thin and slappy -- too much plectrum noise. I switched to a very heavy (1.5 mm) Plec (name of maker) plectrum with a blunt tip, which enables me to produce a rounder, fuller tone with less chiff on the front end. I find the recorded sound much more satisfying. Recorded? Why recorded? Because I've found that my ears can deceive me while I'm playing. Listening to a recorded version, I think, is a more accurate guage of tone quality. Try it. It's like hearing your own voice recorded for the first time. Perhaps not for the faint of heart! Yours, Jim bill [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: lute society [EMAIL PROTECTED] irgilio.it cc: Subject: plectrum and lute 04/12/2004 09:15 AM dear all - mostly because it's a holiday and it's raining and i'm running out of excuses to not do my scales... i'm curious to know if any of you play lute with a plectrum. if so: - how many courses does your instrument have? - what kind of strings to you use? - what is your plectrum made of? . - from what period is the music you play? . - if you prefer using plectrum, why? just idle curiosity. regards - bill
Re: plectrum and lute
Dear Bill: I haven't heard from Ronnie, but perhaps I will! I already have a lute, a bit better than student quality, from the fine Najarian workshop. Check out their Web site, including their far-out electric oud! Yours, Jim
Duet rather than Duel [was: Music's Duel]
Dear Pluckies, I would fain not die from singing with a good lutenist, but I would certainly like to find someone who will be at the LSA meeting in Cleveland this summer who would play with my singing. I'm on this list in my guise as a baby Baroque guitarist but in my real life I am a professional singer. I plan to sing for the masterclasses by Ellen Hargis and Jacob Herringman. If anyone would like to join me, please let me know off list. All languages and periods of lute/voice music are a possibility, not just Dowland. How about French Airs de Cour? My specialty is Italian 17th C, big project is Barbara Strozzi. I have one piece that is really a theorbo song. Make me a suggestion! Thanks, Candace Dr. Candace A. Magner University of New Mexico - Los Alamos Dept of Fine Arts/Music [EMAIL PROTECTED] homepage http://clik.to/candace
consulting old topics
Dear lutelisters, I would like to consult some old topics that appeared months ago in this list. How can I access to the general archive? Thank you! Manolo Laguillo Barcelona --
Re: consulting old topics
dear manolo - i believe it is as easy as clicking the archives located in the right-hand column, second item on the home page. - bill On Martedì, apr 13, 2004, at 00:47 Europe/Rome, Manolo Laguillo wrote: Dear lutelisters, I would like to consult some old topics that appeared months ago in this list. How can I access to the general archive? Thank you! Manolo Laguillo Barcelona --
Re: Mystery piece
I stumbled across the midi file - it's Maria Zart, by Arnolt Schlick, a german organist who in 1511 published a treatise on organ building and playing. Below are links to the midi, text, and an mp3. -- David http://members.ozemail.com.au/~davcooke/icerinx/schlick1.mid http://www.andreasschollsociety.scholl.com/biography.htm#MZ http://www.andreasschollsociety.scholl.com/MariaZart.mp3 David Cassetti wrote: Hi, All, In '83 I recorded excerpts from a library LP with miscellaneous composers (organ), at a time when I was unfamiliar with pre-Bach composers, and I didn't write down anything about the album. It had Frescobaldi, Pachelbel, Buxtehude, and others. I've been wondering who was the composer of the first piece on the album for all these years. It's in 3 parts and I think it's in the Phrygian mode. Not only do I think it's cool, the lower two parts fit very nicely on a 7 course lute and seem very idiomatic. - the lowest note is F. I transcribed it by ear to a midi file and have posted it: http://www.users.qwest.net/~leocassetti/MYSTORG.MID I figure the collective knowledge of the lute-net might help me solve the mystery, and some of you might find this interesting as a possible arrangement with lute accompaniment. I've been playing along in a music minus 1 mode. Thanks, David
