Re: Renaissance america - a little more lute related, maybe
Dear all, Once again . --- bill kilpatrick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > surely this is a case of putting the cart before the > horse. If the fact that the violeros knew what name to call the instruments they made, and designated them with such names in their own documents, implies putting a cart before a horse so be it; I fail to see the connection. > - precisely what changes were made to the vihuela de > mano that required it having a new name? I do not share the hypothesis that the charango derives from the vihuela, therefore, I don't believe I should have to provide an explanation for a theory I personally find mistaken. > - at what point do derivations - alternative > tunings, > decorative embellishments, different building > materials - necessitate this change? Same as above. > - do you suggest that at some point, luthiers in the > new world stopped making vihuela de manos; threw > away > their molds and drawing plans and started to make > charangos? when did this happen? I would never dare to suggest such a thing, in my view it is simply wrong because, as I said above, it would mean a direct connection between the vihuela and the charango, a connection I don't believe obtains. > based on what was said during the last go-around on > the subject, i suspect that the answer is "don't > know." if that's the case, i suggest that "don't > know" makes it equally plausible that a charango is > a > bona-fide vihuela de mano. in fact, its shape and > the > quote below make it more than plausible. > > - bill > Tbe shapes of the vihuela and the charango suggest precisely otherwise. The quote below needs to be verified. I've know of it for a long time: it appears in almost every other site that deals with the charango. However, I have not been able to find either the original edition of the said book, or a modern one, something that sounds suspicious bearing the fact that I live in Mexico, where the said book is purported to have been written. The date is also wrong: according to the facts provided in the said quote, the conquest of Yucatan would have been accomplished by 1512 (the alleged date), and would thus predate the conquest of Mexico. Hardly probable. I am tempted to consider this source as spurious until some proof of its veracity is produced. Another fact that needs to be taken into account when dealing with literary sources is that the nomenclature does not necessarily reflect a specific instrument. As an example, numerous sources from the seventeenth century mention a vihuela when the context makes it plain that they mean a guitar. There is a welll-known source from the fifteenth century, _Vision delectable de la filosofia_ that also mentions a vihuela while the woodcut beside the quote illustrates a harp. I could go on with this subject, save for the fact that I do not believe it is germane to the topic under consideration, especially since the "Historias de la conquista del Mayab" seems to be a fabrication. As a student my supervisor passed on to me an advice from Thurston Dart which all of us would do well to heed: "verify your references". I´m sorry, but the authority of a website without any other supporting evidence is not good enough for me. With best regards, Antonio > > - --- Antonio Corona <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > No charangos (or cuatros or any other derivation > > whatsoever). And these deluded buggers surely knew > > how > > to name the instruments they made. > > > > Antonio > > > > > > > > --- bill kilpatrick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > wrote: > > > --- Antonio Corona <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > Incidentally, the Spanish "Ordenanzas de > > > violeros", > > > > that is, the regulations of the guild of > > > > vihuela-makers (who also made lutes), first > > > > published > > > > in Seville in 1502, were reprinted verbatim > for > > > the > > > > guild of Mexican "violeros" in 1568. This must > > > > surely > > > > mean that instrument-making -and buying- was > > > > certainly > > > > flourishing at the time. > > > > > > > > > any mention of the word "charango" or were the > > poor > > > deluded buggers still constructing their vihuela > > de > > > manos under the wrong name? > > > > > > what news of the vihuela society? > > > > > > - bill > > > > > > = > > > "and thus i made...a small vihuela from the > shell > > of > > > a creepy crawly..." - Don Gonzalo de Guerrero > > > (1512), "Historias de la Conquista del Mayab" by > > Fra > > > Joseph of San Buenaventura. go to: > > > http://www.charango.cl/paginas/quieninvento.htm > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ___ > > > > > > ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - > even > > > more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > > > > ___ > > > > Win a castle for NYE with your mates and Yahoo! > >
Re: Oldest known viola bodied vihuela guitar, 1300's, Spain
Dear Roger, An update to your update. I am sorry to disappoint you but, even though the frescos in the Capilla del Aceite indeed date from the 14th century, the painting in question is a 20th-century restoration, and a botched job at that. I have know this picture for a long time, I´ve been to Salamanca and seen it personally. Unfortunately I do not have at hand the documentation I obtained at the Cathedral, where it is stated that the frescoes of the Capilla had undergone the aforesaid restoration, but I would advice you to evaluate this picture with extreme caution, bearing in mind that we do not know the extent of the "repairs". I too found it a facinating instrument. With best wishes, Antonio --- "Roger E. Blumberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi all; > > Just an update. To the greater viola-vihuela-guitar > story (to viola da gamba > ulitmately), I've just add this instrument: > > http://www.thecipher.com/Viola_sine_arculo_OLDEST-01.jpg > Plucked vihuela/viola (Vihuela de penola or Viola > sine arculo), 1300s. > Salamanca, Spain, Old Cathedral, Capilla del Aceite. > Fresco de la Capilla del Aceite > Catedral Vieja da Salamanca > > Also notice the peg box head of this four (or 3?) > string > Salamonca-viola-vihuela. It's very distinct, very > old, and will probably > link back to still older instruments, e.g. perhaps > even the 9th cent > Carolingian Psalter, the long rectangular shoulder > mounted (or forearm > bicept supported) bass instruments, and then perhaps > then even the > Commentarious Super Apocalypsum (lamb of God) plates > c.926 AD. The > instruments in the later are more lute-like bodied. > Another intermediate > instrument, to help solidify those earlier > connections would be nice. If any > of you stumble upon one please let me know. > > It would be intereresting if the waist cut-outs > originally evolved as a > bicept (arm) or shoulder-mounted stablizing device > (hook it up over your > right bicept or shoulder). Some of the Carolingain > manuscript instruments > also have a pole stabalizer proping up the front end > of the instrument (i.e. > stabalization and support were an issue on the > larger instruments.) > > Thanks > > Roger > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > ___ ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
AustrianArnold,etc :)))
Dear Howard, it's like you are saying, "hey, it's mathematically incorrect", the dates, etc. Or "the equasion doesn't work". :) I try to explain what i mean, just below your quoted post. While I find these remarks insightful -- except for the part about the > dominance of the religious and military, the part about Shakespeare and > Dowland (who were both dead before there were more than a handful of > European settlers in North America), and the parts about the praying seven > hours a day, the only education being religious, the burnings at the stake > (burning at the stake happened in enlightened Europe, not in colonial North > America), the Amish (who didn't come to America until the mid-18th century), > the cost of higher education in America (two years ago, it cost about $1,800 > for a California resident to attend a California State University, but > that's gone up since we got an Austrian immigrant governor who sees higher > education as a way to cut the budget deficit), and Noam Chomsky (not an > "extremely popular author" but a linguistics professor , who I've seen on > television more than once); the confusion of two centuries, nearly all > post-Renaissance, into one nondescript sort of Time That Never Was, and your > confusion of several different colonial cultures with a one-dimensional > caricature of the Massachusetts Bay Colony -- you should consider that in a > group of lute players, there will be readers who have actually studied > history, as you evidently have not, so you might want to check your facts > occasionally. > > Carry on... Not being set on the intent to fuel graticious inflamatory statements, but to communicate a view (and even a joke) i'll restate my line: renaissance never passed through the States and this is a fact. Then (half in humour of course) i speculated about what would have been America nowadays if it started off under the sign of the aspirations of the Italy of the renaissance (rather the Medicis than Savanarola-lol). As you may know america developed under the sign of the puritains, which were losing political control in England and had all the control they wanted in the New world. I don't need to lecture you on what the aspirations of the puritains and what the rulling mental trends in america were but i feel they are on the rather dark opressive religious/moral rules side than on the freedom of imagination, poetry, humanism and arts praise side. You should be very careful to understand that we are talking "mentality" here! Mental climat, mental encoding, religion are EXTREMELY powerful means to mold the perception of and individual of the world, of her (him) self and of her(his) acts. Mental encoding and rigid moral system can be so powerful and manipulating that they can be used to render the view of things in most farfetched or distorted ways through mental ASSOCIATION and through joining it inextricably with a particular CONTEXT. That ain't no Phenomenology(LOL), just the contrarry. It is only my personal taste probably, but i'm not fascinated about what contexts and mental associations these "healthy people" imposed on their populations in the New World. Take for example (that's only one example among countless) a depiction of a female body, the way it was depicted durring the renaissance in paintings. You don't need to have a wild imagination to forsee what kind of mental CONTEXT and ASSOCIATION these ruling puritains would attch to it: one of religious ideology, of opression and imposed guilt. The problem is that these mental trends in america are far from dead. At the time of the renaissance we could have, for example in Italy, a nude female body depicted in such a way that it amplified its true context: sheer beauty. In poetic, contexts the beauty of the female body is not severed, it is not categorised, demonised, condemned, attached to any mental religious dogma. Even clerics and the pope ordered such art. America is not full of dumbos--the rulling and predominating mental climat is dumb (neocons), it is outrageously dumb (and hipocritical): like Rumsfeld ordering to cover the breasts of a statue in some justice institution with the american flag. Rum-sucker to take such things seriously is completely imbecilic and who cares, but my intent is to give one among countless examples of why i think that America has not evolved on the ruling level(as response to the post suggesting: "be grateful that America has evolved). Talking about context and association: they train kids in the states to react on the visual input of the flag--it is like the Pavlov's dog: you see the flag and your eyes tear, drooling. Too many flags there, i don't like the "feel" of it..i don't know, may-be i'm wrong but is reminiscent to me of a darker chapter of human's past history. In Occitania the trobadors were composing and singing songs of affection to their beloved ones already in the thirteen century. Even then, th
Instrument Sounding
Dear ppl, recently i adapted this guitar to a six course instrument (not very refined visually:) http://perso.wanadoo.fr/raydimitry/imagini/coursesix.jpg To whoever may want to make something similar or who is curious how such a "thing" would sound, i recorded a short piece-soundfile here: http://perso.wanadoo.fr/raydimitry/soni/AdieuMezAmourz.mp3 i play (..somehow-lol), part of this very charming piece-Adieu Mez Amourz as reinterpreted by Newsiedler. I learned it from Jacob Heringman's CD of Josquin Dez Prez pieces reinterpreted by other composers. Probably most of you are famigliar with his (Jacob's) creations but to those who are not i highly recommend listening to him. It is a pure inspiration as he has this exquisit feeling coming through his playing of rare blend of fluidity, delicate personal touch of artistically applied dynamics to the pieces, humbleness and serenity. -- Faites un voeu et puis Voila ! www.voila.fr -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Renaissance america
Thanks to both Wayne and Arto. I'll dig into it. Tim On Saturday, December 11, 2004, at 04:11 AM, Arto Wikla wrote: > > Lutenists > > On Fri, 10 Dec 2004, Wayne Cripps wrote: > >> If you want neusidler, I have neusidler - a major chunk of one of >> his instruction books. Starts out real easy! >> >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/tab-serv/tab- >> serv.cgi?neusidler.EinNew > > This is just the page I was trying to find for Tim! > Very good - and original! - material for a lute student! > And very good warm-up material for every lutenist. > > Thanks Wayne! > > Arto > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
Question about lute courses/strings
Dear Jon, I am amazed that you "wonder whether the actual text is that important." The text is essential. Without it, you have nothing. We know a lot about lute music, because so much was carefully written down, often with detailed instructions on how to play it. It is quite wrong to suggest that "the various notations are reasonably recent, when compared with the age of music." We learn the same notation people used in the past, and their books of music survive for us to study. It is also pie in the sky to imagine that we can "know the feel of the music of the age", by ignoring the very sources which provide us with that knowledge. I think it is important to know what your aims are. You may want to look at music from a historical perspective, in which case you will want to learn as much as possible about the music, and to be able to play it exactly how it is notated in the source. On the other hand, you may want to adapt the music for your own needs, and historical accuracy may not be important at all. Both approaches have their merits. Yet even if historical accuracy is not important to you, I still think it is wise to learn as much as you can first, before trying to do your own thing. For example, when I tried learning the banjo by listening to records, I would play the notes g', e', d' like this: 2 ---3- - - -0--- T M I Fortunately a friend noticed me struggling to play the notes with a reverse roll (T M I), and advised playing the same three notes like this instead: ---0- 5 - - -0--- T I M I would never have thought of playing them that way, but using a forward roll (T I M) was so much easier. In other words, relying on what I could pick up on my own by listening to a record, would have caused me no end of problems. I was turning a simple piece of music into a difficult one. After studying the instrument for some time, I was eventually able to improvise, to do my own thing, to choose how to play notes in a way which suited me best, but all that had to come later on. It doesn't matter if the music you want to play is by John Dowland or Earl Scruggs. You first need to learn what the experts did, before you try doing it yourself. Much may be learned, of course, by listening to recordings, but if music is readily available in written form, it would be foolhardy to ignore it. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. - Original Message - From: "Jon Murphy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Stewart McCoy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "bill kilpatrick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2004 11:10 AM Subject: Re: Question about lute courses/strings > Bill, > A comment on your message, without seeing the start. Stewart has pointed out > the difference between learning from slowed down sound and the written music > he didn't have. But I wonder whether the actual text is that important. We > all know that the various notations are reasonably recent, when compared > with the age of music. So isn't it important to know the feel of the music > of the age rather than the specific notes and style of another perfomer (who > may be playing just note rather than music). I'm yet incompetant on the > lute, but many of the pieces I've down loaded as text I feel I play > properly, if a bit slowly and with mistakes. Given the form of the notation > I doubt that the rythmes were strictly kept, the dance and the song probably > dictated the sound. > > One can take a single melody line and make the sound of an age by playing it > well, or one can play every not of a transciption and make a series of > notes. Of course it is best if one has the skills to make the polyphony > work, but better a well played melody than a mish-mosh of notes. > Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
RE: Renaissance america
Hey Roman, didn't you already award that title to Milton Babbitt or someone? -Original Message- From: gary digman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2004 12:40 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Renaissance america Dear Roman; "Noam Chomsky is the biggest senile idiot that ever lived..."? On what have you based this diagnosis? Or is this just your way of saying you disagree with his analysis? Such drama. All the Best, Gary Digman - Original Message - From: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, December 10, 2004 6:46 PM Subject: Re: Renaissance america >> had to have the luck to have moms that make good money so they can pay >> the 10 >> 000 dollars per year to get higher education. Then also "normal" citizen >> society never took over the medias there: here you see almost every night >> on >> TV philosophers, all government figures, artists, writers, free >> journalists, >> anthropologists, etc, engaging in free uncensured discussion while in the >> US >> extremely popular writers like Naom Chomsky, for example, has gotten 0 >> (zero) >> minutes TV time durring his entire life and twice 5 minutes radio time > NC is the biggest senile idiot that ever lived, and thank the Allah that > he > doesn't get any more airtime. > RT > -- > http://polyhymnion.org/torban > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >
Re: Renaissance america
No. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv > Hey Roman, didn't you already award that title to Milton Babbitt or someone? > > -Original Message- > From: gary digman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2004 12:40 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: Renaissance america > > > Dear Roman; > "Noam Chomsky is the biggest senile idiot that ever lived..."? On > what have you based this diagnosis? Or is this just your way of saying you > disagree with his analysis? Such drama. > All the Best, > Gary Digman > > - Original Message - > From: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Friday, December 10, 2004 6:46 PM > Subject: Re: Renaissance america > > >>> had to have the luck to have moms that make good money so they can pay >>> the 10 >>> 000 dollars per year to get higher education. Then also "normal" citizen >>> society never took over the medias there: here you see almost every night >>> on >>> TV philosophers, all government figures, artists, writers, free >>> journalists, >>> anthropologists, etc, engaging in free uncensured discussion while in the >>> US >>> extremely popular writers like Naom Chomsky, for example, has gotten 0 >>> (zero) >>> minutes TV time durring his entire life and twice 5 minutes radio time >> NC is the biggest senile idiot that ever lived, and thank the Allah that >> he >> doesn't get any more airtime. >> RT >> -- >> http://polyhymnion.org/torban >> >> >> >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> >> > >
Re: Oldest known viola bodied vihuela guitar, 1300's, Spain
- Original Message - From: "Roger E. Blumberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "LUTE-LIST" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2004 4:14 AM Subject: Oldest known viola bodied vihuela guitar, 1300's, Spain > Hi all; > > Just an update. To the greater viola-vihuela-guitar story (to viola da gamba > ulitmately), I've just add this instrument: > > http://www.thecipher.com/Viola_sine_arculo_OLDEST-01.jpg > Plucked vihuela/viola (Vihuela de penola or Viola sine arculo), 1300s. > Salamanca, Spain, Old Cathedral, Capilla del Aceite. > Fresco de la Capilla del Aceite > Catedral Vieja da Salamanca > > Also notice the peg box head of this four (or 3?) string > Salamonca-viola-vihuela. It's very distinct, very old, and will probably > link back to still older instruments, e.g. perhaps even the 9th cent > Carolingian Psalter, the long rectangular shoulder mounted (or forearm > bicept supported) bass instruments, and then perhaps then even the > Commentarious Super Apocalypsum (lamb of God) plates c.926 AD. The > instruments in the later are more lute-like bodied. Another intermediate > instrument, to help solidify those earlier connections would be nice. If any > of you stumble upon one please let me know. > > It would be intereresting if the waist cut-outs originally evolved as a > bicept (arm) or shoulder-mounted stablizing device (hook it up over your > right bicept or shoulder). Some of the Carolingain manuscript instruments > also have a pole stabalizer proping up the front end of the instrument (i.e. > stabalization and support were an issue on the larger instruments.) > > Thanks > > Roger > If you root around in here you'll see what I'm talking about -- very early lutes/guitars/cytharas (whatever you want to call them), plucked, plectrumed, bowed, 9th century). http://www.thecipher.com/seek/ These are from what are the oldest surviving illuminated manuscripts on the planet. Roger To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: flamenco
http://www.worldwideschool.org/library/books/hst/european/TheZincali-AnAccou ntoftheGypsiesofSpain/toc.html RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv >> http://www.andalucia.org/flamenco/index.php?idioma=eng >> >> another site had a "flamenco - flemish" connection but >> i think the information on the above site is accurate. >> >> just curious - bill >> >> --- Roman Turovsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>> It was first mentioned in the early 1800's. >>> RT >>> __ >>> Roman M. Turovsky >>> http://polyhymnion.org/swv >>> is flamenco baroque? = "and thus i made...a small vihuela from the shell >>> of a creepy crawly..." - Don Gonzalo de Guerrero (1512), "Historias de la >>> Conquista del Mayab" by Fra Joseph of San Buenaventura. go to: http://www.charango.cl/paginas/quieninvento.htm >>> >> ___ Win a castle for NYE with your mates and Yahoo! >>> Messenger http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at >>> >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>> >>> >>> >> >> = >> "and thus i made...a small vihuela from the shell of a creepy crawly..." - >> Don >> Gonzalo de Guerrero (1512), "Historias de la Conquista del Mayab" by Fra >> Joseph of San Buenaventura. go to: >> http://www.charango.cl/paginas/quieninvento.htm >> >> >> >> ___ >> Win a castle for NYE with your mates and Yahoo! Messenger >> http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > >
Re:thanks to all who replied
>Windows media Player 10.0 has a function of slowing the piece >without altering the original pitch: even very fast passages become >clear There is a wonderful little program called Transcribe that indicates what tones are sounding in real time above a diagram of a keyboard. You can slow things down to almost any degree without changing pitch. It is up to you to decide if certain tones are harmonics or not, but it is very useful. It also works with polyphonic music unlike programs such as Melodyne or AutoTune. cheers, -- Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: flamenco
Google up "origins of flamenco". There are some sober assessments out there. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv > From: bill kilpatrick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 15:52:03 + (GMT) > To: Roman Turovsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, lute list <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: flamenco > > nah ... > > i fancy this one: > > http://www.andalucia.org/flamenco/index.php?idioma=eng > > another site had a "flamenco - flemish" connection but > i think the information on the above site is accurate. > > just curious - bill > > --- Roman Turovsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> It was first mentioned in the early 1800's. >> RT >> __ >> Roman M. Turovsky >> http://polyhymnion.org/swv >> >>> >>> is flamenco baroque? >>> >>> = >>> "and thus i made...a small vihuela from the shell >> of a creepy crawly..." - Don >>> Gonzalo de Guerrero (1512), "Historias de la >> Conquista del Mayab" by Fra >>> Joseph of San Buenaventura. go to: >>> http://www.charango.cl/paginas/quieninvento.htm >>> >>> >>> >>> >> > ___ >>> Win a castle for NYE with your mates and Yahoo! >> Messenger >>> http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com >>> >>> >>> >>> To get on or off this list see list information at >>> >> > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> >> >> > > = > "and thus i made...a small vihuela from the shell of a creepy crawly..." - Don > Gonzalo de Guerrero (1512), "Historias de la Conquista del Mayab" by Fra > Joseph of San Buenaventura. go to: > http://www.charango.cl/paginas/quieninvento.htm > > > > ___ > Win a castle for NYE with your mates and Yahoo! Messenger > http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
Re: flamenco
It is customary among sober-minded people to place Flamenco firmly in the post-Napoleonic era. It took it awhile to get noticed too RT > nah ... > > i fancy this one: > > http://www.andalucia.org/flamenco/index.php?idioma=eng > > another site had a "flamenco - flemish" connection but > i think the information on the above site is accurate. > > just curious - bill > > --- Roman Turovsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> It was first mentioned in the early 1800's. >> RT >> __ >> Roman M. Turovsky >> http://polyhymnion.org/swv >> >>> >>> is flamenco baroque? >>> >>> = >>> "and thus i made...a small vihuela from the shell >> of a creepy crawly..." - Don >>> Gonzalo de Guerrero (1512), "Historias de la >> Conquista del Mayab" by Fra >>> Joseph of San Buenaventura. go to: >>> http://www.charango.cl/paginas/quieninvento.htm >>> >>> >>> >>> >> > ___ >>> Win a castle for NYE with your mates and Yahoo! >> Messenger >>> http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com >>> >>> >>> >>> To get on or off this list see list information at >>> >> > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> >> >> > > = > "and thus i made...a small vihuela from the shell of a creepy crawly..." - Don > Gonzalo de Guerrero (1512), "Historias de la Conquista del Mayab" by Fra > Joseph of San Buenaventura. go to: > http://www.charango.cl/paginas/quieninvento.htm > > > > ___ > Win a castle for NYE with your mates and Yahoo! Messenger > http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
Re: flamenco
nah ... i fancy this one: http://www.andalucia.org/flamenco/index.php?idioma=eng another site had a "flamenco - flemish" connection but i think the information on the above site is accurate. just curious - bill --- Roman Turovsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > It was first mentioned in the early 1800's. > RT > __ > Roman M. Turovsky > http://polyhymnion.org/swv > > > > > is flamenco baroque? > > > > = > > "and thus i made...a small vihuela from the shell > of a creepy crawly..." - Don > > Gonzalo de Guerrero (1512), "Historias de la > Conquista del Mayab" by Fra > > Joseph of San Buenaventura. go to: > > http://www.charango.cl/paginas/quieninvento.htm > > > > > > > > > ___ > > Win a castle for NYE with your mates and Yahoo! > Messenger > > http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > = "and thus i made...a small vihuela from the shell of a creepy crawly..." - Don Gonzalo de Guerrero (1512), "Historias de la Conquista del Mayab" by Fra Joseph of San Buenaventura. go to: http://www.charango.cl/paginas/quieninvento.htm ___ Win a castle for NYE with your mates and Yahoo! Messenger http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
Re: flamenco
It was first mentioned in the early 1800's. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv > > is flamenco baroque? > > = > "and thus i made...a small vihuela from the shell of a creepy crawly..." - Don > Gonzalo de Guerrero (1512), "Historias de la Conquista del Mayab" by Fra > Joseph of San Buenaventura. go to: > http://www.charango.cl/paginas/quieninvento.htm > > > > ___ > Win a castle for NYE with your mates and Yahoo! Messenger > http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
flamenco
is flamenco baroque? = "and thus i made...a small vihuela from the shell of a creepy crawly..." - Don Gonzalo de Guerrero (1512), "Historias de la Conquista del Mayab" by Fra Joseph of San Buenaventura. go to: http://www.charango.cl/paginas/quieninvento.htm ___ Win a castle for NYE with your mates and Yahoo! Messenger http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: flamenco
No. RT > is flamenco baroque? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Renaissance america
It is too big and too sore a subject. It requires its own mailing list, and has no lutenistic value. I wouldn't waste my wrists on it, but if you are interested: give me a ring next time you are in my neck of the woods, and we'll talk about it. RT > > Dear Roman; > "Noam Chomsky is the biggest senile idiot that ever lived..."? On > what have you based this diagnosis? Or is this just your way of saying you > disagree with his analysis? Such drama. > All the Best, > Gary Digman > > - Original Message - > From: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Friday, December 10, 2004 6:46 PM > Subject: Re: Renaissance america > > >>> had to have the luck to have moms that make good money so they can pay >>> the 10 >>> 000 dollars per year to get higher education. Then also "normal" citizen >>> society never took over the medias there: here you see almost every night >>> on >>> TV philosophers, all government figures, artists, writers, free >>> journalists, >>> anthropologists, etc, engaging in free uncensured discussion while in the >>> US >>> extremely popular writers like Naom Chomsky, for example, has gotten 0 >>> (zero) >>> minutes TV time durring his entire life and twice 5 minutes radio time >> NC is the biggest senile idiot that ever lived, and thank the Allah that >> he >> doesn't get any more airtime. >> RT >> -- >> http://polyhymnion.org/torban >> >> >> >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> >> > > >
Re: Oldest known viola bodied vihuela guitar, 1300's, Spain
- Original Message - From: "bill kilpatrick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Roger E. Blumberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "LUTE-LIST" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2004 4:40 AM Subject: Re: Oldest known viola bodied vihuela guitar, 1300's, Spain > is the figure holding a plectrum? yes (looks like) > difficult to distinguish the peg box. yes, but I've seen it before (somewhere). It's even earlier than the cordate or heart-shaped "leaf-shaped" peg box (I believe). > very fresh, contemporary > looking drawing, i'd say - not bad for 700 years old. true, but I've seen similar, including that heavy bold solid outlining technique > thanks for posting that. you're welcome > - bill > thanks Roger To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Oldest known viola bodied vihuela guitar, 1300's, Spain
is the figure holding a plectrum? difficult to distinguish the peg box. very fresh, contemporary looking drawing, i'd say - not bad for 700 years old. thanks for posting that. - bill --- "Roger E. Blumberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi all; > > Just an update. To the greater viola-vihuela-guitar > story (to viola da gamba > ulitmately), I've just add this instrument: > > http://www.thecipher.com/Viola_sine_arculo_OLDEST-01.jpg > Plucked vihuela/viola (Vihuela de penola or Viola > sine arculo), 1300s. > Salamanca, Spain, Old Cathedral, Capilla del Aceite. > Fresco de la Capilla del Aceite > Catedral Vieja da Salamanca > > Also notice the peg box head of this four (or 3?) > string > Salamonca-viola-vihuela. It's very distinct, very > old, and will probably > link back to still older instruments, e.g. perhaps > even the 9th cent > Carolingian Psalter, the long rectangular shoulder > mounted (or forearm > bicept supported) bass instruments, and then perhaps > then even the > Commentarious Super Apocalypsum (lamb of God) plates > c.926 AD. The > instruments in the later are more lute-like bodied. > Another intermediate > instrument, to help solidify those earlier > connections would be nice. If any > of you stumble upon one please let me know. > > It would be intereresting if the waist cut-outs > originally evolved as a > bicept (arm) or shoulder-mounted stablizing device > (hook it up over your > right bicept or shoulder). Some of the Carolingain > manuscript instruments > also have a pole stabalizer proping up the front end > of the instrument (i.e. > stabalization and support were an issue on the > larger instruments.) > > Thanks > > Roger > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > = "and thus i made...a small vihuela from the shell of a creepy crawly..." - Don Gonzalo de Guerrero (1512), "Historias de la Conquista del Mayab" by Fra Joseph of San Buenaventura. go to: http://www.charango.cl/paginas/quieninvento.htm ___ Win a castle for NYE with your mates and Yahoo! Messenger http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
Oldest known viola bodied vihuela guitar, 1300's, Spain
Hi all; Just an update. To the greater viola-vihuela-guitar story (to viola da gamba ulitmately), I've just add this instrument: http://www.thecipher.com/Viola_sine_arculo_OLDEST-01.jpg Plucked vihuela/viola (Vihuela de penola or Viola sine arculo), 1300s. Salamanca, Spain, Old Cathedral, Capilla del Aceite. Fresco de la Capilla del Aceite Catedral Vieja da Salamanca Also notice the peg box head of this four (or 3?) string Salamonca-viola-vihuela. It's very distinct, very old, and will probably link back to still older instruments, e.g. perhaps even the 9th cent Carolingian Psalter, the long rectangular shoulder mounted (or forearm bicept supported) bass instruments, and then perhaps then even the Commentarious Super Apocalypsum (lamb of God) plates c.926 AD. The instruments in the later are more lute-like bodied. Another intermediate instrument, to help solidify those earlier connections would be nice. If any of you stumble upon one please let me know. It would be intereresting if the waist cut-outs originally evolved as a bicept (arm) or shoulder-mounted stablizing device (hook it up over your right bicept or shoulder). Some of the Carolingain manuscript instruments also have a pole stabalizer proping up the front end of the instrument (i.e. stabalization and support were an issue on the larger instruments.) Thanks Roger To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Renaissance America - a little more lute related, maybe
You also might try Thomas Walker's (1968) 'Ciaccona and Passacaglia: Remarks on their Origin and Early History', JAMS 21/3 L. Fossum, Arthur wrote: >I will try to track down Richard Hudson's studies( thanks Antonio) > >-Arthur > > > > > -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
RE: Renaissance America - a little more lute related, maybe
I erroneously stated " In 1626 it was not between strophes in a song , but had lyrics of its own." I am wrong, you are right. I played through the Briceno and the Passacalles are meant to be between verses. Picture solo guitar + singer/dancer with castanets... I agree the web site was poorly written (Antonio points out even more errors). But if the point of these dances originating from America(the Americas) is correct, It would show that Music and Life in the Americas was not quite as puritanical and stagnant as some are suggesting. And actually had an influence on the development of music in Europe ( not just Europe to Americas) I will try to track down Richard Hudson's studies( thanks Antonio) -Arthur -Original Message- From: Fossum, Arthur Sent: Friday, December 10, 2004 8:20 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Renaissance America - a little more lute related, maybe -Original Message- From: Caroline Usher [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 10, 2004 2:42 PM In Briceno's method for Spanish guitar there are numerous passacalles with lyrics !!? published 1626. I am not sure if this is important (my Spanish is terrible, and my favorite translator is not available) After listing 12 passacalles(different progressions) he writes "Estos son las Pasacalles contenidos en la Guitarra con ellos se cantaran toda suerte de tonos Espanoles y Franceses graves y agudos" So passacalles in France and Spain in early 17th century. Was it dance first like the Allemande then stylized movement I am pretty sure I have another source... which I am currently looking for... from around the same time that lists passacalles as a 'Baile'... but I have been wrong in the past :) -Arthur To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Renaissance America - a little more lute related, maybe >>=20 >> How come "pas de passacalle" is in Feuillet's Choregraphie from 1713? Evidently by that time the French had created a dance for it, possibly an= outgrowth of its use in stage and/or chamber music: "In France the Hispanic-Italian passacaglia, like the chaconne, was= transformed during the mid-17th century into a distinctive native genre,= although before that the genre had already had some impact as an exotic= Spanish import. A passacalle(in the earlier sense of ritornello) occurs in= an air to a Spanish text by De Bailly (1614), and in 1623 the Spanish= expatriate Luis de Bri=E7e=F1o published in Paris a guitar method that= included in chord tablature brief chaconnes and passacaglias similar to the= early Italian examples -SNIP - To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Italian Christmas Songs
In the spirit of the original question I suggest to you all a little book I just got on a recommendation from a friend on the double strung harp list. The title is Twenty Medieval Christmas Carols, from Utrecht. The frontispiece is a facsimile of Puer Natus in Bethleem in original notation (no date, but it appears to be about 15th c.). The pieces are all in modern staff notation and in the key of C major, with accidentals that make the modalities. Most of them are in two voices, but some in three. I have sung, years ago, the pieces of that time. But the only one I'm familiar with so far (haven't played all the songs yet) by title is In Dulci Iubilo, I sang it a thousand timesss (more like a hundred). I suggest that this booklet might be a good source for lutenists who want to play the polyphony of the time and experiment with making their own lute arrangements. I'm using it for harp, but hope to find the skills on the lute to make the voices work. The medieval voices were the ancestors of the Renaissance music, and as such you may find some interest here. I'll offer a source if asked, but the book is very expensive , it cost me $9.95 US with shipping. Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Renaissance america
> NC is the biggest senile idiot that ever lived, and thank the Allah that he > doesn't get any more airtime. > RT It is seldom that I can agree with you, but Noam Chomsky isn't a senile idiot - he was an idiot 40 years ago. His initial works on linguistics back then were rather foolish. He took a similarity in the familial words in various languages and assumed an ingrained genetic language (although genetic wouldn't be his word at the time). He neglected the physical development of the baby. Those of us who have brought up children know that the first articulated sounds they make (after the annoying yowls) involve the closing of the lips to make an "mm" sound, and most languages have that sound for mother. The second linguistic experiment is the "explosive" of the same sound, the "P". So Noam finds a coded and ingrained language while I merely find that babys first articulation has been formed into a word for their closest companion, the mother - and the next one is the second closest, the father. OK, you all can find languages where this doesn't apply but exceptions don't exclude a rule. Chomsky saw similarities and found a rule of "natural language". I see the similarities and see merely a natural and human thing. The mother sees and hears the child making the "mama" sound and attatches it to herself. Quite natural, but not an innate language. Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Re: Renaissance america
Lutenists On Fri, 10 Dec 2004, Wayne Cripps wrote: > If you want neusidler, I have neusidler - a major chunk of one of > his instruction books. Starts out real easy! > > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/tab-serv/tab-serv.cgi?neusidler.EinNew This is just the page I was trying to find for Tim! Very good - and original! - material for a lute student! And very good warm-up material for every lutenist. Thanks Wayne! Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
RE: Renaissance america - a little more lute related, maybe
Dear Arthur, Thank you so much for the link, but I'm afraid that all the informatiuon they provide there is utterly wrong, beginning with the fact that Guatemala is not in Mexico (even at the time it was a separate Capitanía general), that the Spanish chacona has little to do with later chaconnes, as it also happens with the pasacalles and passacaglia, nor was king Philip III married in Tampico. There are certainly grounds to suppose that the chacona originated in New Spain, but no definite proof about this has surfaced yet. Richard Hudson has made some excelent studies; I'm afraid I haven´t got the references handy, but it would be worthwhile, if you are interested, to find them. Besides, he links the evolution of several dance forms with the Baroque guitar (or "guitarra española" as it was called at the time) and its influence. Best regards, Antonio --- "Fossum, Arthur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Some interesting stuff regarding the origin of > Chaconne and Passacaglia > and the new world. > > http://www.streetswing.com/histmain/z3chacna.htm > > > > -Original Message- > From: Antonio Corona [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Friday, December 10, 2004 2:36 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: Renaissance america - a little more > lute related, maybe > > Dear all, > > > --- Carl Donsbach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > Early colonial life was hard! The early English > and > > Spanish colonies in > > North America were not characterized by much > musical > > cultural growth, and > > there is little evidence of lute playing or making > > in those times. Musical > > instruments (lutes included) tended to get left at > > home by emigrating > > colonists. By the time much of any kind of > musical > > life was enjoyed by the > > residents of the colonies, we were pretty well > into > > the Baroque. > > > > The situation regarding Mexico is quite the > opposite: > musical activities, both liturgical and secular, > began > even as the conquest was taking place, and continued > to flourish during the whole of the Colonial period. > This process is well documented in numerous sources > and chronicles and is consistent with the fact that > the first printing press and the first university in > the American continent were founded in Mexico City. > Spaniards, despite their barbarous behaviour during > the conquest and the inhuman conduct of certain > nobles > and authorities towards natives, brought with them > their whole culture, including, of course, music > which > was shared freely with the Indian population - as an > aid to colonization, granted - but nevertheless > making > it part of the common culture being forged at the > time. The Indians appreciated the new music and > learned with amazing speed both how to play and how > to > make the instruments - which were also imported from > Spain; this process that went on, as I mentioned > above, throughout the whole of the Colonial period. > > The music in the archives from the cathedrals and > churches of Mexico City, Puebla, Oaxaca, Tlaxcala, > Durango, and many other places, furnishes ample > proof > that there was indeed a musical cultural growth. > Here > we can find music imported from Europe in great > quantities, but also a wealth of works composed > locally by the chapelmasters, of outstanding > quality, > not inferior to what was being composed in Spain at > the time. Nowadays there is a great number of > recordings of Mexican Colonial music, for those > interested in folowing up this topic. > > Incidentally, the Spanish "Ordenanzas de violeros", > that is, the regulations of the guild of > vihuela-makers (who also made lutes), first > published > in Seville in 1502, were reprinted verbatim for the > guild of Mexican "violeros" in 1568. This must > surely > mean that instrument-making -and buying- was > certainly > flourishing at the time. > > With best regards, > Antonio > > > > > > > > ___ > > ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even > more fun! > http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > ___ ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
Re: Renaissance america - a little more lute related, maybe
surely this is a case of putting the cart before the horse. - precisely what changes were made to the vihuela de mano that required it having a new name? - at what point do derivations - alternative tunings, decorative embellishments, different building materials - necessitate this change? - do you suggest that at some point, luthiers in the new world stopped making vihuela de manos; threw away their molds and drawing plans and started to make charangos? when did this happen? based on what was said during the last go-around on the subject, i suspect that the answer is "don't know." if that's the case, i suggest that "don't know" makes it equally plausible that a charango is a bona-fide vihuela de mano. in fact, its shape and the quote below make it more than plausible. - bill - --- Antonio Corona <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > No charangos (or cuatros or any other derivation > whatsoever). And these deluded buggers surely knew > how > to name the instruments they made. > > Antonio > > > > --- bill kilpatrick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > --- Antonio Corona <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Incidentally, the Spanish "Ordenanzas de > > violeros", > > > that is, the regulations of the guild of > > > vihuela-makers (who also made lutes), first > > > published > > > in Seville in 1502, were reprinted verbatim for > > the > > > guild of Mexican "violeros" in 1568. This must > > > surely > > > mean that instrument-making -and buying- was > > > certainly > > > flourishing at the time. > > > > > > any mention of the word "charango" or were the > poor > > deluded buggers still constructing their vihuela > de > > manos under the wrong name? > > > > what news of the vihuela society? > > > > - bill > > > > = > > "and thus i made...a small vihuela from the shell > of > > a creepy crawly..." - Don Gonzalo de Guerrero > > (1512), "Historias de la Conquista del Mayab" by > Fra > > Joseph of San Buenaventura. go to: > > http://www.charango.cl/paginas/quieninvento.htm > > > > > > > > > > > > > ___ > > > > ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even > > more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > > > > > > ___ > > Win a castle for NYE with your mates and Yahoo! > Messenger > http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > = "and thus i made...a small vihuela from the shell of a creepy crawly..." - Don Gonzalo de Guerrero (1512), "Historias de la Conquista del Mayab" by Fra Joseph of San Buenaventura. go to: http://www.charango.cl/paginas/quieninvento.htm ___ ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
