Re: FW: Lute related podcasting
Sure, everyone knows about the magnificence of magnatune, but you can't save those files, only listen to them in real time. What you pay is what you get, I mean, you can _buy_ them, like a normal cd, as if _real_ people made those recordings, people who deserve to get paid for their work. I like it when people buy my cds, not just borrow, and I'm sure you like to get paid for your work. David To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Antwort: Re: more about the old theorbo
Dear All, I looked at the picture last week, but I remembered counting 12 pegs in the lower pegbox and 8 in the upper - 6 double courses on the fingerboard and 8 single basses, no? Best wishes, Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The fact that there are no frets on the neck suggests strongly that the strings are not original. They also seem to have been put onto the instrument by someone clueless about how to tie them to the bridge and who did not know which string to run to which peg. Finally, it looks like the layout should probably be with the first two courses single, since there are only 12 pegs on the pegbox for the fingerboard strings (or was there a treble rider that is now missing?). Daniel Heiman -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anyhow - max 11-courses. I'll ask around to check if somebody knows more about the instrument. Thomas Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] am 14.04.2005 01:13:57 An:LUTE-LIST lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Kopie: Thema: Re: more about the old theorbo Wayne, This looks old indeed - but why call it a theorbo when the courses are doubled? It looks like a 10-course archlute, perhaps the famed liuto francese used in Italy? Just guesses Alain Look closer. It looks like it is missing the chanterelle. RT Wayne Cripps wrote: I have pictures of the old instrument at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute/Raillich/ Jiri Cepelak has looked at it, apparently. Wayne To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html CONFIDENTIALITY : This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and may be privileged. If you are not a named recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to another person, use it for any purpose or store or copy the information in any medium.
Re: FW: Lute related podcasting
No, no, you're getting it all wrong. I never said you should not pay for downloading magnatune music. What I'm saying, or rather asking, is: Is there any podcasting out there on lute related matters? If not, I believe there should be. The whole idea about podcasting is to upload home-made stuff onto the net, which others can then partake of, comment, learn from etc. This does not have to become a discussion of what should be paid to someone or other, bur rather that the lute field could embrace podcasting as a medium to propagate lute matters. G. On 4/17/05, LGS-Europe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sure, everyone knows about the magnificence of magnatune, but you can't save those files, only listen to them in real time. What you pay is what you get, I mean, you can _buy_ them, like a normal cd, as if _real_ people made those recordings, people who deserve to get paid for their work. I like it when people buy my cds, not just borrow, and I'm sure you like to get paid for your work. David To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: FW: Lute related podcasting
On 4/17/05, G.R. Crona [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No, no, you're getting it all wrong. I never said you should not pay for downloading magnatune music. What I'm saying, or rather asking, is: Is there any podcasting out there on lute related matters? If not, I believe there should be. The whole idea about podcasting is to upload home-made stuff onto the net, which others can then partake of, comment, learn from etc. This does not have to become a discussion of what should be paid to someone or other, bur rather that the lute field could embrace podcasting as a medium to propagate lute matters. G. On 4/17/05, LGS-Europe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sure, everyone knows about the magnificence of magnatune, but you can't save those files, only listen to them in real time. What you pay is what you get, I mean, you can _buy_ them, like a normal cd, as if _real_ people made those recordings, people who deserve to get paid for their work. I like it when people buy my cds, not just borrow, and I'm sure you like to get paid for your work. David To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Antwort: Re: more about the old theorbo
Dear Martin, The neck and the shape of the body would suggest IMHO it's not a theorbo but a german baroque lute. This would also suggest double courses for the basses. To be sure we would need the measures of the body. I would opt for 2 single courses on the top, 5 doublecourses on the fingerboard and 4 doublecourses for the basses. best wishes Thomas Am Sonntag, 17. April 2005 10:50 schrieb Martin Shepherd: Dear All, I looked at the picture last week, but I remembered counting 12 pegs in the lower pegbox and 8 in the upper - 6 double courses on the fingerboard and 8 single basses, no? Best wishes, Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The fact that there are no frets on the neck suggests strongly that the strings are not original. They also seem to have been put onto the instrument by someone clueless about how to tie them to the bridge and who did not know which string to run to which peg. Finally, it looks like the layout should probably be with the first two courses single, since there are only 12 pegs on the pegbox for the fingerboard strings (or was there a treble rider that is now missing?). Daniel Heiman -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anyhow - max 11-courses. I'll ask around to check if somebody knows more about the instrument. Thomas Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] am 14.04.2005 01:13:57 An:LUTE-LIST lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Kopie: Thema: Re: more about the old theorbo Wayne, This looks old indeed - but why call it a theorbo when the courses are doubled? It looks like a 10-course archlute, perhaps the famed liuto francese used in Italy? Just guesses Alain Look closer. It looks like it is missing the chanterelle. RT Wayne Cripps wrote: I have pictures of the old instrument at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute/Raillich/ Jiri Cepelak has looked at it, apparently. Wayne To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html CONFIDENTIALITY : This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and may be privileged. If you are not a named recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to another person, use it for any purpose or store or copy the information in any medium. -- Thomas Schall Niederhofheimer Weg 3 D-65843 Sulzbach 06196/74519 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FW: Lute related podcasting
in a way, having easy access to non-paid, pirated music could be a real boon for solo performers or small ensembles willing to play without the digital crutch. a friend of mine is searching for a musician to entertain guests at her 140th birthday party (she and her husband celebrate their birthdays together) and you wouldn't believe how difficult it is to arrange. i live in the sticks here in italy and what you usually get is someone with a fisarmonica or electronic keyboard and an enormously loud, unbelievably obnoxious, karaoke sound system - they're everywhere! trying to find someone who simply plays without all the electronic crap is impossible. it's got to come full circle. the more musicians surrender to the dubious charms of digitalia, the more disposable - ultimately - they become. one musician or a small group performing live, unplugged ... ahhh! .. will become - if it hasn't already - precious and well worth - one hopes - the heavy maintenance. - bill --- G.R. Crona [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No, no, you're getting it all wrong. I never said you should not pay for downloading magnatune music. What I'm saying, or rather asking, is: Is there any podcasting out there on lute related matters? If not, I believe there should be. The whole idea about podcasting is to upload home-made stuff onto the net, which others can then partake of, comment, learn from etc. This does not have to become a discussion of what should be paid to someone or other, bur rather that the lute field could embrace podcasting as a medium to propagate lute matters. G. On 4/17/05, LGS-Europe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sure, everyone knows about the magnificence of magnatune, but you can't save those files, only listen to them in real time. What you pay is what you get, I mean, you can _buy_ them, like a normal cd, as if _real_ people made those recordings, people who deserve to get paid for their work. I like it when people buy my cds, not just borrow, and I'm sure you like to get paid for your work. David To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
Re: FW: Lute related podcasting
That's something quite new to me.. there are many musicians and students of Conservatori in Italy, willing to play, and some even accept playing while people are chatting at a party, or eating. And there are many people who would like to have music without paying musicians, because , as a friend once told me ( he had refused to play) you know, waiters are to be paid (--and there is no money left for musicians--) Back to the original message: there are some pieces of mine (playing Weiss etc) in mp3, both on my sites and on Roman's.They're copyrighted but I offered them on the net -free- Donatella http://web.tiscali.it/awebd - Original Message - From: bill kilpatrick [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: G.R. Crona [EMAIL PROTECTED]; LGS-Europe [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 12:35 PM Subject: Re: FW: Lute related podcasting in a way, having easy access to non-paid, pirated music could be a real boon for solo performers or small ensembles willing to play without the digital crutch. a friend of mine is searching for a musician to entertain guests at her 140th birthday party (she and her husband celebrate their birthdays together) and you wouldn't believe how difficult it is to arrange. i live in the sticks here in italy and what you usually get is someone with a fisarmonica or electronic keyboard and an enormously loud, unbelievably obnoxious, karaoke sound system - they're everywhere! trying to find someone who simply plays without all the electronic crap is impossible. it's got to come full circle. the more musicians surrender to the dubious charms of digitalia, the more disposable - ultimately - they become. one musician or a small group performing live, unplugged ... ahhh! .. will become - if it hasn't already - precious and well worth - one hopes - the heavy maintenance. - bill --- G.R. Crona [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No, no, you're getting it all wrong. I never said you should not pay for downloading magnatune music. What I'm saying, or rather asking, is: Is there any podcasting out there on lute related matters? If not, I believe there should be. The whole idea about podcasting is to upload home-made stuff onto the net, which others can then partake of, comment, learn from etc. This does not have to become a discussion of what should be paid to someone or other, bur rather that the lute field could embrace podcasting as a medium to propagate lute matters. G. On 4/17/05, LGS-Europe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sure, everyone knows about the magnificence of magnatune, but you can't save those files, only listen to them in real time. What you pay is what you get, I mean, you can _buy_ them, like a normal cd, as if _real_ people made those recordings, people who deserve to get paid for their work. I like it when people buy my cds, not just borrow, and I'm sure you like to get paid for your work. David To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
Re: FW: Lute related podcasting
I agree, as I _am_ one of those Magnatune musicians, and yes, I am hopefully a real person. ed At 08:46 AM 4/17/2005 +0200, LGS-Europe wrote: Sure, everyone knows about the magnificence of magnatune, but you can't save those files, only listen to them in real time. What you pay is what you get, I mean, you can _buy_ them, like a normal cd, as if _real_ people made those recordings, people who deserve to get paid for their work. I like it when people buy my cds, not just borrow, and I'm sure you like to get paid for your work. David To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202
lecture recital
Fellow Pluckers I will be doing a lecture-mini-recital on Thursday, April 21st - 6:30 pm at: New Jersey Guitar Mandolin Society Bergen County Academies 200 Hackensack Ave. Hackensack, NJ I'm going to play works by Gaspar Sanz on the Baroque Guitar and pieces by Kapsberger and Dowlan on the lute. Hope to see you there Sal Salvaggio www.Salvaggio.50megs.com __ Do you Yahoo!? Plan great trips with Yahoo! Travel: Now over 17,000 guides! http://travel.yahoo.com/p-travelguide To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Fw: Re: Antwort: Re: more about the old theorbo
Thomas, Martin, et al. For the current state of the instrument, my interpretation was the same as Thomas'. However, the photographs are somewhat ambiguous. If you look at the bridge, the spacing seems to favor all the courses being double, but if you look at the nut for the fingerboard strings, you see what appears to be a groove for a single first course that is unoccupied (and could not be used unless the top two strings are reversed on the pegs). An accurate assessment would require additional photographs (close-ups of the bridge and the nuts) or a look at the instrument in person, but it does seem like it could be played as an 11-course in transitional or d-minor tuning (top two courses single) with at most a redrilling of a few holes in the bridge (they may be already present) and maybe one additional groove in the fingerboard nut to space a single second course to your liking. The rake of the pegbox looks too shallow to allow for a treble rider to be glued on to add a single first string in addition to those already present. Regards, Daniel Heiman - Forwarded message -- From: Thomas Schall [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 12:04:12 +0200 Subject: Re: Antwort: Re: more about the old theorbo Dear Martin, The neck and the shape of the body would suggest IMHO it's not a theorbo but a german baroque lute. This would also suggest double courses for the basses. To be sure we would need the measures of the body. I would opt for 2 single courses on the top, 5 doublecourses on the fingerboard and 4 doublecourses for the basses. best wishes Thomas Am Sonntag, 17. April 2005 10:50 schrieb Martin Shepherd: Dear All, I looked at the picture last week, but I remembered counting 12 pegs in the lower pegbox and 8 in the upper - 6 double courses on the fingerboard and 8 single basses, no? Best wishes, Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The fact that there are no frets on the neck suggests strongly that the strings are not original. They also seem to have been put onto the instrument by someone clueless about how to tie them to the bridge and who did not know which string to run to which peg. Finally, it looks like the layout should probably be with the first two courses single, since there are only 12 pegs on the pegbox for the fingerboard strings (or was there a treble rider that is now missing?). Daniel Heiman -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anyhow - max 11-courses. I'll ask around to check if somebody knows more about the instrument. Thomas Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] am 14.04.2005 01:13:57 An:LUTE-LIST lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Kopie: Thema: Re: more about the old theorbo Wayne, This looks old indeed - but why call it a theorbo when the courses are doubled? It looks like a 10-course archlute, perhaps the famed liuto francese used in Italy? Just guesses Alain Look closer. It looks like it is missing the chanterelle. RT Wayne Cripps wrote: I have pictures of the old instrument at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute/Raillich/ Jiri Cepelak has looked at it, apparently. Wayne To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html CONFIDENTIALITY : This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and may be privileged. If you are not a named recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to another person, use it for any purpose or store or copy the information in any medium. -- Thomas Schall Niederhofheimer Weg 3 D-65843 Sulzbach 06196/74519 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Antwort: Re: more about the old theorbo
g. The rake of the pegbox looks too shallow to allow for a treble rider to be glued on to add a single first string in addition to those already present. Swan-neck lutes never have treble riders. RT -- http://polyhymnion.org/torban To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Antwort: Re: more about the old theorbo
Pure speculation of course but, if only 6/7 fingered and 4 (doubled) bass courses, don't overlook that it cld conceivably be an arch-colachon: 18thC mandoras and colachons gathered additional bass courses, altho a 1720 conversion date is probably too early fr a 10 course instrument. Whether such instruments actually existed must be open to question but 30 yrs ago we were ignorant of the 18thC m and c. Martin Shepherd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear All, I looked at the picture last week, but I remembered counting 12 pegs in the lower pegbox and 8 in the upper - 6 double courses on the fingerboard and 8 single basses, no? Best wishes, Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The fact that there are no frets on the neck suggests strongly that the strings are not original. They also seem to have been put onto the instrument by someone clueless about how to tie them to the bridge and who did not know which string to run to which peg. Finally, it looks like the layout should probably be with the first two courses single, since there are only 12 pegs on the pegbox for the fingerboard strings (or was there a treble rider that is now missing?). Daniel Heiman -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anyhow - max 11-courses. I'll ask around to check if somebody knows more about the instrument. Thomas Roman Turovsky am 14.04.2005 01:13:57 An: LUTE-LIST Kopie: Thema: Re: more about the old theorbo Wayne, This looks old indeed - but why call it a theorbo when the courses are doubled? It looks like a 10-course archlute, perhaps the famed liuto francese used in Italy? Just guesses Alain Look closer. It looks like it is missing the chanterelle. RT Wayne Cripps wrote: I have pictures of the old instrument at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute/Raillich/ Jiri Cepelak has looked at it, apparently. Wayne To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html CONFIDENTIALITY : This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and may be privileged. If you are not a named recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to another person, use it for any purpose or store or copy the information in any medium. Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com --
Two Accompaniment Questions
Cross-posted; please excuse duplication. 1. Can anyone recommend 17th-century songs for soprano or mezzo-sop. and 11-course Baroque lute (d minor tuning) with the accompaniment in tablature? I'm not quite far enough along in this tuning to realize a bass just yet. 2. Is there a source for Caccini's Amarilli mia bella with the bass line realized for theorbo, in tablature? I have played the realization by Dowland for lute, and can realize Caccini's original bass line on the theorbo, but the results of my attempt at the latter are thinnner sounding than I'd like. My thanks in advance to all, Eric Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: FW: Lute related podcasting
On Saturday 16 April 2005 17:24, G.R. Crona wrote: Hi guys, Sure, everyone knows about the magnificence of magnatune, but you can't save those files, only listen to them in real time. Well, they don't want you to, but with my linux PC I'm quite able to burn a music CD from it after some conversions (stream re-direction and mp3 conversion). I didn't because I buy a CD if I like it, and I always want to have a booklet. I like especially the Michelangelo Galilei by Paul Beier, which is music I often play. Taco To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Two Accompaniment Questions
1. Can anyone recommend 17th-century songs for soprano or mezzo-sop. and 11-course Baroque lute (d minor tuning) with the accompaniment in tablature? I'm not quite far enough along in this tuning to realize a bass just yet. http://polyhymnion.org/lieder Hundreds of them. RT ___ $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. Signup at www.doteasy.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Two Accompaniment Questions
Eric Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: 1. Can anyone recommend 17th-century songs for soprano or mezzo-sop. and 11-course Baroque lute (d minor tuning) with the accompaniment in tablature? There is Jakob Kremberg's Musicalische Gemueths-Ergoetzung oder Arien, Dresden 1689, with tablatures for the guitar, 11c lute and several other string instruments, available from e. g. the LSA microfilm archive. Best, Mathias -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Two Accompaniment Questions
1. Can anyone recommend 17th-century songs for soprano or mezzo-sop. and 11-course Baroque lute (d minor tuning) with the accompaniment in tablature? I'm not quite far enough along in this tuning to realize a bass just yet. http://polyhymnion.org/lieder Hundreds of them. RT ___ $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. Signup at www.doteasy.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Fw: Re: Antwort: Re: more about the old theorbo
I will be playing in the czech republic later that year. If there are closer details about the whereabouts I would be willing to take a closer look at the instrument (take additional photos and make some measurements). But I would need a contact. Hello Wayne - would you have such a contact? Best Thomas Am Sonntag, 17. April 2005 16:18 schrieben Sie: require additional photographs (close-ups of the bridge and the nuts) or a look at the instrument in person, but it does seem like it could be played as an 11-course in transitional or d-minor tuning (top two courses single) with at most a redrilling of a few holes in the bridge (they may be already present) and maybe one additional groove in the fingerboard nut to space a single second course to your liking. The rake of the pegbox looks too shallow to allow for a treble rider to be glued on to add a single first string in addition to those already present. -- Thomas Schall Niederhofheimer Weg 3 D-65843 Sulzbach 06196/74519 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Concertizing in dry environments.
At the risk of running off-topic, why is humidity control important in an organ shop? It seems the wood in an organ would be mostly cabinetry, not subjected to the high stress and rigorous requirements of a lute soundboard. Because some pipes are made of wood. RT Roman, I believe Herbert was speaking of an actual historical organ, not to confuse this with the contents of your own organ. Michael Thames I've dug this out of the kill-file to thank you for Your flattering acknowledgement of my manliness. I wish you to experience some such ligneousness someday. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv ... the shop of a local organ builder/restorer ... ... humidifiers running all over his shop ... At the risk of running off-topic, why is humidity control important in an organ shop? It seems the wood in an organ would be mostly cabinetry, not subjected to the high stress and rigorous requirements of a lute soundboard. Because some pipes are made of wood. RT -- http://polyhymnion.org/torban To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
lute-harpsichord
Dear all, A couple of years ago some members of the list helped me when I was inquiring about certain strings concerning a lute-harpsichord (lautenwerk) my luthier friend Tihamer Romanek started to build then. The instrument is ready and I believe it is just fantastic, you can listen to the sound at: www.romanektihamer.hu Actually the homepage is pretty clumsy (language mistakes, double version downloads at same points instead of the planned pieces, the name of the lute player (Istvan Szabo) missing, and so on, and so on), but I decided not to postpone writing this letter any longer, since the webmaster seems to have disappeared, or unwilling to correct his poor work. You can also see and listen to a theorbo and an archlute Tihamer has built recently and is ready to sell since the person who ordered them got into financial problem. Both are very good instruments I am convinced after trying them. Thanks and best regards, Gabor Domjan -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: FW: Lute related podcasting
No, no, you're getting it all wrong. I never said you should not pay for downloading magnatune music. What I'm saying, or rather asking, is: Is there any podcasting out there on lute related matters? If not, I believe there should be. Point taken. My friend Michiel Niessen has some of his, and mine if I remeber correctly, recordings on his web site. Of which I have have lost the URL, and a Google search didn't help either. Sorry. On my web site you'll find only a snippet of a Japanese lullaby with Panormo accompaniment. Perhaps I should put up an MP3 of one track of each cd I made. One day ... David * David van Ooijen Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Http://home.planet.nl/~d.v.ooijen/ * To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: FW: Lute related podcasting
have a booklet. I like especially the Michelangelo Galilei by Paul Beier, which is music I often play. Hoi Taco Herringman has wonderful cds too: Josquin and the Sienna book! And everybody: do listen to Matthew Wadsworth's cd of Johnson (solo and song): great music, great (all-gut!) playing, wonderful voice. Comes highly reccomended. David * David van Ooijen Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Http://home.planet.nl/~d.v.ooijen/ * To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
