Re: Byrd
I'm a novice at all this, but I can see the point that Arthur Ness is making. Earlier on (if I understand correctly) he gave the example of Byrd pieces that have been transcribed unchanged from lute originals (rather than arranged) to the keyboard. Even in my limited experience I have come across examples of this - for example there is a Fancy by Newman in the Mulliner Book and a Sarabande and Allemande in the Elizabeth Rogers Virginal Book all of which look very much (from the distribution of the parts) as if they are lute pieces that have been written down in grand staff (for virginal players to play?) with hardly any (if any) rearrangement. These transcriptions (yes, I think this to be the correct term) are clearly different from the example of reworking given by Salvatore Salvaggio. However this reworking is different again from the many examples of different pieces based on the same theme - eg Edward Collard's Ground (for lute) based on the same theme as Byrd's Hugh Ashton's Ground, and the several versions of Conde Claros for vihuela and lute. Eric Crouch On 24 Jul 2005, at 06:00, Sal Salvaggio wrote: Luters, I am presently working on a Pavan by Byrd set by Francis Cutting for a program of Elizabethan Ballads and Dances.I put the piece in with a group of Cutting pieces. The Cutting style is evident in his reworking or recomposition of this work. I consider it as original in the way Mr. Cutting has used the lute to express his rendition of the Byrd piece. Would I call this a Cutting composition? NO. I think of it as an original Cutting impression of a keyboard piece by Byrd - in effect an original piece for the lute by Cutting, much as I consider Andres Segovia's Bach Chaconne or his recomposition of DeVisee or Llobet's thinning out + guitaristic coloring of Granados as original works for the guitar...Let the semantic fur fly Salvatore Salvaggio http://www.Salvaggio.50megs.com On 24 July at 04:49 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi to all, It seems that Ness is saying that a keyboard composition, reworked (arranged) for lute, can qualify as an original lute piece. Thames is saying, not so. Do I have this right? I'm a little confused about this thread... I've published several books with Mel Bay Publications of my arrangements for guitar: works by Debussy, Handel, Strauss, Bach, Schubert, Mozart, etc. Even though a lot of creative work goes into these arrangements; in no way would I consider them to now qualify as original guitar compositions. I've had a very busy and tiring week, so forgive me if I'm missing the obvious; but it seems to me that Michael has a valid point about all this. Being a nice person and valued musicologist is not the issue here, is it? James __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Re: Byrd
Would someone please tell me what the hell is going on here? Something must have gone down between Mr, Thames and Mr.Ness that I missed. The Matanya/Roman battle was more entertaining because I understood what it was about. The Best to All, Gary Digman - Original Message - From: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 11:43 PM Subject: Byrd I've never met Arthur Ness, as I'm not really a member of the good old boys club. I'm relatively new to the lute, 4 years or so. I did play it a bit in the mid 70's. I've seen his name next to Da Milano's pieces, and that's about all I know, other than he is. I've been assuming, some kind of musicologist. I'm sure he's a nice guy, however, like most humans, if you get on their bad side, they can be not so nice! Myself included. So, niceties aside. What I'm seeing, is basically, all the people who know, and like Arthur, are turning a blind ear, to what he's saying. Not having been in the loop, maybe I'm supposed to just humor him? Nancy, etc. do you really believe that Tablature, is for the novice lute player? when both the London and Dresden MS and all of Weiss's music is written in Tablature? No attempt was ever made by Weiss to put it into pitch notation, and Bach's music transcribed into tab from grand staff ? by his lute students. If I follow your rational. if Arthur says it, it must be true. However, you don't have to be a musicologist, to see through this ridiculous claim. Can anyone find in one of my emails, any comment where I said lutenists were Musically illiterate ? and lutenists can't read pitch notation. I really don't mind an interesting debate, and I've admitted I've been wrong at times, I have no problem with that. I do have a problem with people putting words in my mouth, and bending the truth, so they can try and make me into a village Idiot. and make them look good. and man! Arthur is doing one hell of a song and dance! Arthur is able to twist me saying.. Transcriptions of original keyboard compositions to the lute, are NOT original lute pieces, and transcriptions of original lute pieces to the keyboard, are not keyboard pieces, they are what we village idiots refer to as ARRANGEMENTS, or transcriptions, or neither, just popular tunes of the time, played on what ever instrument was hanging around. Into lecturing me on the difference between transcriptions, and arrangements.. If you notice I didn't use the term equate.. I used the word or, big difference, but not to Ness I guess. He sees what he wants to see, problem is, it hasn't allot to do with reality. I guess dialogue, and reason, have no place when one is dealing with the one and only authority, in the upper realms of the lute cosmology. It's really a pretty small fraction in the musical universe. Nancy, you called me to ask what the lute society could do to promote itself when Barto plays this year at the GFA. Well maybe you could start by not supporting Nessy's derogatory comments about guitarists, and start putting lute music along side guitar music, in treble clef, for starters. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.9.2/53 - Release Date: 7/20/2005
Re: Re: Byrd
At 02:56 24-07-2005 -0700, gary digman wrote: Would someone please tell me what the hell is going on here? Something must have gone down between Mr, Thames and Mr.Ness that I missed. The Matanya/Roman battle was more entertaining because I understood what it was about. Funny you should mention Roman. For a while, I thought that Thames was one of Roman's inventions to entertain us all. But he seems to be real enough. Amused, Arne. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Byrd
A bit on Treble clef vs. tab and other ramblings- When I started to play the renaissance lute back in the winter of'75, I worked from keyboard transcriptions. I didn't read tab at the time. I saw the lines in this richly contrapuntal music and used my skills at fingering to come up with workable solutions. After learning to read tablature, I discovered that many of the composers for the lute dropped voices where I didn't in my own arrangements, Chords were voiced in different ways, etc. Each lute composer had their own unique way of doing this. Their individual approach to the music was part of their own unique style. At one time, early on, I did use guitar treble clef - but the pitch was off by a third -(or more with all the different tunings ex: lutes in A, D, etc) I figured I might as well hear the pitches that I was seeing so I turned to keyboard transcriptions - this also helped alot with my continuo playing later on. I guess you could write out lute music for guitar with the 3rd strting tuned down a half step and lots of fingerings - I got a copy of Strizich's book of deVisee to play on the baroque guitar as well as the Weiss London ms. in treble clef to play on the 13 c. lute- I have to admit that - with all the fingerings clogging up the page and the octave displacements- the experience was a bit on the frustrating side. IMHO guitarists should learn to read tablature! That would certainly open up a wealth of works for exploration. I think people like Arthur (da Milano) have helped to bring forgotten(due to the lost art of reading lute tab) lute composers to the music world. I also believe that lutenists who present works from original(or facsimile)editions have given us a closer picture of what the composer intended and heard in his head. Take Beethovan - his 9th played on the piano is like black and white compared to the orchestral rendition. He conceived it for the orchestra - battling sectional forces, antiphonal passeges etc.. Ever play Recuerdos on the piano - or imagine what it might sound like - humand all lutenist should learm to read modern notation as well - couldn't hurt Salvatore Salvaggio http://www.Salvaggio.50megs.com __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Byrd
Michael Thames wrote: Nancy, etc. do you really believe that Tablature, is for the novice lute player? when both the London and Dresden MS and all of Weiss's music is written in Tablature? I'm sure she doesn't, and nobody has said anything like it. Since you just said, I do have a problem with people putting words in my mouth, and bending the truth, you need to go back and read what set you off on this particular rant. Read all the words. Read them in order. Use a dictionary to look up the ones you don't understand. Arthur wrote: Judging from the inclusion of elementary instructions in many early lute tablature books, tablature was originally intended for novice players. But it was easy to print, and survived because of the many scordatura lute tunings in the 17th century. Somone counted 28 of them. Pitch notation would make that jumble of tunings a real mess for even the most skilled player. Tablature was a practical solution. A dictionary might not help you with early lute tablature books. You either know that early lute tablature books date from the 1500s, and that Weiss came along two centuries later, or you don't. Apparently you don't, or are just uninterested in facts or logical connections. But don't expect anyone to take you seriously when you claim to be a voice of reason whose wisdom is ignored because you aren't part of the old boy network. Indeed, as a general rule, if you need to keep protesting that you're a voice of reason, you're not one. HP To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Byrd
Posner, In the context of what Ness is saying, and all his previous emails trying to establish pitch notation as superior to tablature, for lutenistsI most certainly stand by what I said. He's saying that historically, novices read tab until they go on to higher forms of notation, (pitch) I suggest you go back and re read what Ness said, it's right there on paper, and Posner, you can put the dictionary aside, there are words in that sentence, even you can understand. The challenge for you, the village bore is to get beyond your contempt for me, and everything I say. From your screwy Geometry, to site reading, you attack whatever I say That would be fine and welcome, but usually you really have nothing much to say, other than to correct my spelling etc. How juvenile! Do you really believe Courperin wrote lute music? Do you really believe Byrd wrote lute music? I'll help you out here Posner, and give you a little heads uporiginal lute music is played ON the lute, and historically lutenists spoke in tab as has been the case with anybody of any significance. From Spinacino to Weiss. Ness, is rewriting lute history as we speak. He's even suggested that DAS come out with a revised edition of History of the lute! Do you agree with this? All to prove his stupid point! If we start using Ness's system of classification all music sinks into the murky water ofneither fish nor fowl. You don't need to be a musicologist to understand this mistake. As Sal pointed out Beethoven's 9th sounds very different on piano, than the original orchestral conception. In the same way Byrd's Keyboard music, sounds way different on the lute. If you listen to Byrd's keyboard music on the keyboard, the texture is much thicker, and almost impossible to play on the lute. However, lute music is very easy on the keyboard. I doubt that any keyboard player would play the exact lute version, it would sound pretty sparse, They would do an arrangement, notice I used the word arrangement, rather than transcription, in this case. Paul Odette told me that when Bach Arranged the so called e minor lute suite for keyboard, he added more chords changed the harmony, and thickened the texture to sound better on keyboard. In Nessisum, he proclaims a nihilistic doctrine , and BTW Posner, the definition of nihilism.1, a doctrine that all values are baseless, that nothing is knowable, and itself meaningless. This pretty much describes Mr. Ness's recipe for historical musical soup, yuck! Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Byrd
Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Posner, In the context of what Ness is saying, and all his previous emails trying to establish pitch notation as superior to tablature, for lutenists ?!? I havent read that in Arthurs posts. Tablature and staff notations record the music using different abstractions, each has its advantages, each its disadvantages; to y mind there is no objective criteria to decide which is superior to the other in any general sense; one can however make a reasoned choice in particular situations. A player should be conversant with both, however, tablature is proven far easier to teach to the musically naive, and even for the musically literate it can be easier to learn to read for a plucked instrument from tablature than staff. One is then only challenged to have a supply of music in tablature to work with. The facts suporting all sides of this issue are well known to all of us, perhaps remaining rehash of them could be left as [silent] excercise? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Byrd
And as a very practical matter, if you're concerned about being taken seriously as a musician, you are going to get handed music in modern notation, especially when working with singers and ensembles. You have to be able to read modern notation and tablature if you want to play professionally or even semi-professionally. So, it depends on what you are aiming to do with the lute IMHO. --- Sal Salvaggio [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A bit on Treble clef vs. tab and other ramblings- When I started to play the renaissance lute back in the winter of'75, I worked from keyboard transcriptions. I didn't read tab at the time. I saw the lines in this richly contrapuntal music and used my skills at fingering to come up with workable solutions. After learning to read tablature, I discovered that many of the composers for the lute dropped voices where I didn't in my own arrangements, Chords were voiced in different ways, etc. Each lute composer had their own unique way of doing this. Their individual approach to the music was part of their own unique style. At one time, early on, I did use guitar treble clef - but the pitch was off by a third -(or more with all the different tunings ex: lutes in A, D, etc) I figured I might as well hear the pitches that I was seeing so I turned to keyboard transcriptions - this also helped alot with my continuo playing later on. I guess you could write out lute music for guitar with the 3rd strting tuned down a half step and lots of fingerings - I got a copy of Strizich's book of deVisee to play on the baroque guitar as well as the Weiss London ms. in treble clef to play on the 13 c. lute- I have to admit that - with all the fingerings clogging up the page and the octave displacements- the experience was a bit on the frustrating side. IMHO guitarists should learn to read tablature! That would certainly open up a wealth of works for exploration. I think people like Arthur (da Milano) have helped to bring forgotten(due to the lost art of reading lute tab) lute composers to the music world. I also believe that lutenists who present works from original(or facsimile)editions have given us a closer picture of what the composer intended and heard in his head. Take Beethovan - his 9th played on the piano is like black and white compared to the orchestral rendition. He conceived it for the orchestra - battling sectional forces, antiphonal passeges etc.. Ever play Recuerdos on the piano - or imagine what it might sound like - humand all lutenist should learm to read modern notation as well - couldn't hurt Salvatore Salvaggio http://www.Salvaggio.50megs.com __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Byrd
Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Nancy, etc. do you really believe that Tablature, is for the novice lute player? when both the London and Dresden MS and all of Weiss's music is written in Tablature? Do you really think the one fact disputes the other? Tablature is intuitive, and has few mysteries to be explained to one who would master it. Music notation ca 1500 was in transition, several conventions were in use that are since discarded. The theory of music was published in Latin, with snatches of greek and hebrew. Mastery of the staff notation of 1500 was a great deal harder than modern staff notation, and in both cases more difficult than tablature; one studied it with the help of a teacher, one who (hopefully) had mastery of the mysteries. The cost of publishing was high in 1500. Once printed, the works had to be stored until sold, perhaps transported to remote market places; slow sales could bring on bankruptcy. Lots of risk, and smart printers did what they could to ensure the investment was safeguarded. Printers who had influence arranged for monopolys, which sometimes were notation- specific. Tablature was the choice of notation for editions marketed for players of plucked strings during the renaissance, often the music in those editions could be found in other editions in staff notation as well, intended for singers or windband players. It was reasonable for the 16c publisher of music to presume a plucked string player would be or could quickly become proficient in reading tablature, no sales would be lost to those fewer players who also read staff. Yes, tablature was an easier notation to teach and to learn. No, that did not prejudice the quality of the music published in tablature notation. -- dana emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: tablature
I really like what Eric Crouch, Dana Emery and Sal Salvaggio have said in this morning's emails. In the context of music that is just for lute, we need to remember that the notation is just a communication form - to help one player play another's music or for someone to learn another's piece. It's not like 19th Century classical music where the composer expects his notes to be exactly reproduced. Musicians come with different wiring in their heads (probably enhanced by practice). Some traditional and jazz musicians learn very complex music without ever writing much down. My guess is that if you heard Dowland play live he would have been showing off his latest creations and they would have been very much a part of him, so that he didn't need the written versions. I also suspect he was a pretty incredible improviser. I think that we are only now beginning to understand the importance of improvisation as a skill that good lute players should have. Take a listen to Paul O'Dette's Robin Hood CD and compare the written music to the CD. There are some really nice, tasteful divisions on the repeats. The manuscripts we work with now (see the Julia Craig-Feeley dissertation linked to the LSA web site or the concordances at the back of Diana Poulton's edition and compare one version to another) show many slight or very big differences in the same pieces of music. Michael asked what I though about tablature. Personally I think tab is a superior form of notation for lutes and guitars. But then I can see pitches in lute tab as easily as I can in treble and bass clef. My head is wired such that I can even see the pitches when I look at cittern tab. Back in the 70's I did quite a few transcriptions, both into guitar notation and grand staff. The guitar notation always had problems to cramming so much into one line of music. The plus of the grand staff is that the non-lute world can (we hope) learn how wonderful this music is. But the real problem remains that in playing lute and guitar the performer in primarily concerned with the start of the notes and not the exact place where each of them end. And tablature works the same way, mostly notating the start of the notes. When you make transcriptions into staff notes, you are faced with what to do with the voices that come in and out, the places where there are imitative sections that should have held notes, but they can't really be held because of the fingering etc. In tablature these things don't matter - it just gets on with direct communication to the player, and in many cases leaves a bit more to player to add to the end product than a transcribed edition would. Don't expect notation to make up for the player's lack of knowledge about the style of the music. Another aspect of this is ensemble playing - lutes were as common as electric guitars are today, so they played a lot with other instruments and singers. Now so many players or both lute and guitar play solo music. I think in the renaissance a lot of ensemble music would be the norm and it would not be unreasonable for the lute player to be familiar with the pitches for G and D lutes - many viols were tuned to those same pitches. Plus they did not have the concept of violin music for the violin that we have today. Remember that the Morley consort was supposedly the first instance of music written for a particular instrumentation, rather than to be played on what was at hard and worked. I should also say that my comments might be a bit slanted towards renaissance music from England. These days I only have time for my orpharion and I have not played baroque lute since the 80s, and no longer own one. Nancy Nancy Carlin Associates P.O. Box 6499 Concord, CA 94524 USA phone 925/686-5800 fax 925/680-2582 web site - www.nancycarlinassociates.com Administrator THE LUTE SOCIETY OF AMERICA web site - http://LuteSocietyofAmerica.org -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Byrd, Tabluature etc.
Hello all, The problem with lists like this is generally you have a bunch of fairly well educated and well meaning people get together and discuss something of real importance to them. This occasionally evokes strong emotional debates and reactions from the participants. And more often than not , because of the de-personalized format of e-mail the authors of posts attack others in ways they would not in more public personal forum. I have see this on more than one list. What we are here for if not to discuss and debate the issues we care about? But do we have to do it in an adversarial, combative and demeaning fashion??? Despite many assurances to the contrary, I do think the tenor of many posts on this last topic ( tablature) is getting far out of hand. Most listers are not conflict mongers. Pointless argument wastes our time. We are here to learn from each other, not attack each other. If someone talked down to me in this pompous fashion, I doubt I'd be nearly as civil as Michael Thames has managed to be. Put yourself in his shoes. How would you react? I don't think anyone should be censured on this list by anything but common sense and actual tact. Both are becoming rarities in the world and I'd hate to think that people who ought know better would act like this too. This sort of garbage is what turns of people from lists like this. Can we behave like adults now? Chad McAnally -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
A pint's a pound....
Imagine that you have some water and want to quantify it. It fills a one-pint container It weighs one pound (or 454 gm, or thereabouts) Which is more valid, or superior - volume or weight? Always? Peace. Al - Original Message - From: Chad McAnally [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2005 6:30 PM Subject: Byrd, Tabluature etc. Hello all, The problem with lists like this is generally you have a bunch of fairly well educated and well meaning people get together and discuss something of real importance to them. This occasionally evokes strong emotional debates and reactions from the participants. And more often than not , because of the de-personalized format of e-mail the authors of posts attack others in ways they would not in more public personal forum. I have see this on more than one list. What we are here for if not to discuss and debate the issues we care about? But do we have to do it in an adversarial, combative and demeaning fashion??? Despite many assurances to the contrary, I do think the tenor of many posts on this last topic ( tablature) is getting far out of hand. Most listers are not conflict mongers. Pointless argument wastes our time. We are here to learn from each other, not attack each other. If someone talked down to me in this pompous fashion, I doubt I'd be nearly as civil as Michael Thames has managed to be. Put yourself in his shoes. How would you react? I don't think anyone should be censured on this list by anything but common sense and actual tact. Both are becoming rarities in the world and I'd hate to think that people who ought know better would act like this too. This sort of garbage is what turns of people from lists like this. Can we behave like adults now? Chad McAnally -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
RE: A pint's a pound....
Dear Al, If it's only water then it doesn't matter now if you were talking about Legend ale, we could have an interesting discussion. Of course, whoever's paying for the round would have the superior opinion :) Peace-would-be-nice-if-we-can-ever-get-it! GB -Original Message- From: A.J. Padilla, M.D. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2005 6:56 PM To: Chad McAnally; lute Subject: A pint's a pound Imagine that you have some water and want to quantify it. It fills a one-pint container It weighs one pound (or 454 gm, or thereabouts) Which is more valid, or superior - volume or weight? Always? Peace. Al To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Byrd
When I studied Lute at Oakland University in the late 70's Dr. Nordstrom required us (meaning his Lute students) to be able to read and play from the Grand Staff. People that don't do this are robbing themselves of a degree of freedom in being able to explore music they may have only one source for. Not to mention the enlarged possibilities from intabulating your own versions, transcriptions, arrangements, or what ever you want to call them, from sources like the Fitzwilliam Virginal Book. I cannot understand why anyone in the Lute community would look down their nose at guitarists understanding that very many of us came to the Lute by way of the Guitar. That's like cursing your own father. As for me I can read and play from the Grand Staff, albeit slowly at first, I can sight read both French and Italian Tablature but to be honest I don't have a clue about German Tablature and its obscure forms. Which brings us back to the main problem of reading Grand Staff. A lot of the German Tab is available in Staff notation, which means that I can usually find what I want somewhere even if it is in Grand Staff. The real problem with staff notation, be it Grand Staff or treble is in the instrument itself and its reoccurring octaves. Simply put often there are conflicts or decisions about neck position where there may be more than one choice in a particular passage as where to play it. Vance Wood. - Original Message - From: Sal Salvaggio [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2005 10:23 AM Subject: Re: Byrd A bit on Treble clef vs. tab and other ramblings- When I started to play the renaissance lute back in the winter of'75, I worked from keyboard transcriptions. I didn't read tab at the time. I saw the lines in this richly contrapuntal music and used my skills at fingering to come up with workable solutions. After learning to read tablature, I discovered that many of the composers for the lute dropped voices where I didn't in my own arrangements, Chords were voiced in different ways, etc. Each lute composer had their own unique way of doing this. Their individual approach to the music was part of their own unique style. At one time, early on, I did use guitar treble clef - but the pitch was off by a third -(or more with all the different tunings ex: lutes in A, D, etc) I figured I might as well hear the pitches that I was seeing so I turned to keyboard transcriptions - this also helped alot with my continuo playing later on. I guess you could write out lute music for guitar with the 3rd strting tuned down a half step and lots of fingerings - I got a copy of Strizich's book of deVisee to play on the baroque guitar as well as the Weiss London ms. in treble clef to play on the 13 c. lute- I have to admit that - with all the fingerings clogging up the page and the octave displacements- the experience was a bit on the frustrating side. IMHO guitarists should learn to read tablature! That would certainly open up a wealth of works for exploration. I think people like Arthur (da Milano) have helped to bring forgotten(due to the lost art of reading lute tab) lute composers to the music world. I also believe that lutenists who present works from original(or facsimile)editions have given us a closer picture of what the composer intended and heard in his head. Take Beethovan - his 9th played on the piano is like black and white compared to the orchestral rendition. He conceived it for the orchestra - battling sectional forces, antiphonal passeges etc.. Ever play Recuerdos on the piano - or imagine what it might sound like - humand all lutenist should learm to read modern notation as well - couldn't hurt Salvatore Salvaggio http://www.Salvaggio.50megs.com __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
original tuning
on the oud list recently i learned of a tuning for a 5c. oud that was taken from the 13th cent. treatise called kitab al-adwar (book of cycles) by safi al-din al-urmawi (1216-1294). each course is named and a tuning in straight 4ths is indicated but no pitch is given. in trying to understand how medieval musicians tuned up before standardized notation, i imagine that the lead musician - or singer, if the instruments were meant for accompaniment - simply went h and the others twisted their pegs accordingly. assuming that vocal chords are more or less the same for everyone and assuming that instruments - stringed instruments in particular - are an extension of this sound, is it possible that anyone asked to sing h or ah would do so naturally at more or less the same pitch? i tried this with an automatic chromatic tuner but couldn't get a consistent reading, even though it sounded the same to me each time. leonard bernstein noted that nyah-nyah, nyah, nyah-nyah was recited globally in more or less the same key - g or a, i believe. this might have been learned from english language or american style media but could it just as easily be an example of everyone singing in perfect harmony without the aid of coca-cola? i gather that tuning in 4ths was probably the original tuning for our family of instruments but is there anything to indicate in which key? and thus i made...a small vihuela from the shell of a creepy crawly... - Don Gonzalo de Guerrero (1512), Historias de la Conquista del Mayab by Fra Joseph of San Buenaventura. go to: http://www.charango.cl/paginas/quieninvento.htm ___ Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Byrd
It's probably just the leaves rustling, but I keep imagining I hear Bob Clair giggling under his breath and saying never try to teach a pig to sing. Michael Thames wrote: In the context of what Ness is saying, and all his previous emails trying to establish pitch notation as superior to tablature, for lutenistsI most certainly stand by what I said. He's saying that historically, novices read tab until they go on to higher forms of notation, He didn't say either of those things. I suggest you go back and re read what Ness said, I did, and I reproduced it for you, and told you to read it carefully. You still didn't understand. I suppose I can't solve your reading comprehension problems for you. The only reason I keep responding to this particular error on your part is that you're broadcasting a misrepresentation of Arthur's views, and I really don't want to read somewhere else that a noted musicologist said tablature was for novices and real lute music is written in staff notation. HP To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Byrd + when the fishin's bad
Chris wrote: And as a very practical matter, if you're concerned about being taken seriously as a musician, you are going to get handed music in modern notation And oh - how true this is - in my career as a professional player the ability to read all the clefs has helped get the gigs. The most interesting being Cole Porter's lute part in Kiss Me Kate! Made a bundle on that show off to an idea. I do wish that this bickering can stop. I guess the fishin's bad or something. Hey, I got an idea - how 'bout we work as a collective and compile lists of useful things lute players and musicologists need - maybe draw on our experiences - what do we do for sight reading notation, some continuo or proto continuo ARS editions we can use to improve our musicianship skills, books or music we might have used to learn to notation on the lute or compile a list of progressive pieces in tablature that guitar players can use to read tablature or help musicologists with practical fingerings in their keyboard renditions which in turn might show in notational form the composers actual intent in terms of line realizations etc. ..I've got a lot to share - how about you guys? Salvatore Salvaggio http://www.Salvaggio.50megs.com __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: tablature
Nancy Carlin wrote: and I have not played baroque lute since the 80s, and no longer own one. But why!? It is not too late to make ammends and become one of us. Come to the Dark Side. ;-) Greg-- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Byrd
Dear Gary, The thread was originally about Byrd. I would very much like to know more about Byrd, and about the tablature sources of his music. For example, I have the impression that the lute solo settings make some concessions to the lute, i.e. the music is arranged to be idiomatic for the instrument, whereas the Paston settings are virtually literal intabulations minus the cantus. Paston's intabulations are often so exact that they are unnecessarily awkward to play. He even shows unisons, so, for example, where two viols play f, he intabulates it as: ___ ___ ___ _a_ _f_ ___ Transferring music from four viols to one lute tends to iron out the polyphonic nature of Byrd's music. Instead of hearing four interweaving melodic strands as on viols, one tends to hear a succession of chords on the lute, with more a suggestion of polyphony than a clear realisation of it. Some years ago I intabulated eight consort songs by Byrd for Fretwork Editions. If Paston intabulations existed, for various reasons I chose not to use them, and instead made my own arrangements. Literal intabulations can be self-defeating. For example, if you have one viol playing this: __ _a__c__d__ __ __ __ __ and another viol playing this: __ _d__c__a__ __ __ __ __ you'll have a literal intabulation looking like this: __ _d__c__d__ _f_f__ __ __ __ The two melodies fuse to become a succession of chords. I believe that it is often better to simplify such passages, and omit the notes of one viol for the sake of having at least one melodic line from the other viol clearly heard. Arthur (13th July) and Rainer (10th July) have provided us with sources and lists of music by Byrd arranged for the lute. Can anyone add to those lists? Do we have a list of all the lute pieces arranged by Byrd for keyboard? Notation may have its fascination, but I really would like to return to Byrd. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. - Original Message - From: gary digman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2005 10:56 AM Subject: Re: Re: Byrd Would someone please tell me what the hell is going on here? Something must have gone down between Mr, Thames and Mr.Ness that I missed. The Matanya/Roman battle was more entertaining because I understood what it was about. The Best to All, Gary Digman - Original Message - From: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 11:43 PM Subject: Byrd I've never met Arthur Ness, as I'm not really a member of the good old boys club. I'm relatively new to the lute, 4 years or so. I did play it a bit in the mid 70's. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: A pint's a pound....
While the weight or mass will always be the same, the volume will change depending on temperature. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
RE: A pint's a pound....
Seems that weight would be more precise. Volume would vary with temperature, atmospheric pressure, properties of the container, etc. -Original Message- From: A.J. Padilla, M.D. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2005 5:56 PM To: Chad McAnally; lute Subject: A pint's a pound Imagine that you have some water and want to quantify it. It fills a one-pint container It weighs one pound (or 454 gm, or thereabouts) Which is more valid, or superior - volume or weight? Always? Peace. Al - Original Message - From: Chad McAnally [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2005 6:30 PM Subject: Byrd, Tabluature etc. Hello all, The problem with lists like this is generally you have a bunch of fairly well educated and well meaning people get together and discuss something of real importance to them. This occasionally evokes strong emotional debates and reactions from the participants. And more often than not , because of the de-personalized format of e-mail the authors of posts attack others in ways they would not in more public personal forum. I have see this on more than one list. What we are here for if not to discuss and debate the issues we care about? But do we have to do it in an adversarial, combative and demeaning fashion??? Despite many assurances to the contrary, I do think the tenor of many posts on this last topic ( tablature) is getting far out of hand. Most listers are not conflict mongers. Pointless argument wastes our time. We are here to learn from each other, not attack each other. If someone talked down to me in this pompous fashion, I doubt I'd be nearly as civil as Michael Thames has managed to be. Put yourself in his shoes. How would you react? I don't think anyone should be censured on this list by anything but common sense and actual tact. Both are becoming rarities in the world and I'd hate to think that people who ought know better would act like this too. This sort of garbage is what turns of people from lists like this. Can we behave like adults now? Chad McAnally -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
RE: Byrd, Tabluature etc.
I hereby invoke Godwin's Law. -Original Message- From: Chad McAnally [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2005 5:30 PM To: lute Subject: Byrd, Tabluature etc. Hello all, The problem with lists like this is generally you have a bunch of fairly well educated and well meaning people get together and discuss something of real importance to them. This occasionally evokes strong emotional debates and reactions from the participants. And more often than not , because of the de-personalized format of e-mail the authors of posts attack others in ways they would not in more public personal forum. I have see this on more than one list. What we are here for if not to discuss and debate the issues we care about? But do we have to do it in an adversarial, combative and demeaning fashion??? Despite many assurances to the contrary, I do think the tenor of many posts on this last topic ( tablature) is getting far out of hand. Most listers are not conflict mongers. Pointless argument wastes our time. We are here to learn from each other, not attack each other. If someone talked down to me in this pompous fashion, I doubt I'd be nearly as civil as Michael Thames has managed to be. Put yourself in his shoes. How would you react? I don't think anyone should be censured on this list by anything but common sense and actual tact. Both are becoming rarities in the world and I'd hate to think that people who ought know better would act like this too. This sort of garbage is what turns of people from lists like this. Can we behave like adults now? Chad McAnally -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: original tuning
On Jul 25, 2005, at 8:56 AM, bill kilpatrick wrote: leonard bernstein noted that nyah-nyah, nyah, nyah-nyah was recited globally in more or less the same key - g or a, i believe. this might have been learned from english language or american style media but could it just as easily be an example of everyone singing in perfect harmony without the aid of coca-cola? Apropos of nothing, but you reminded me of it: I'm reading a book called Roots of the Classical by Van Der Merwe in which he identifies these three notes as the children's chant, nominally ega. Interestingly, add a transposed version acd to that and you get the pentatonic scale. The really interesting point is that there have been studies on infants to show the evolution of melody and those three notes are the third stage, after one note and the whole tone stage. The core of the children's chant of course is the descending minor third. cheers, -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
