[LUTE] Re: alternate and economy picking
--- bill kilpatrick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > in a previous post from arne keller - no subject was > given but he was asking for notation advise - he > says > that according to tinctoris, there was a change from > playing the lute with plectrum to plucking it with > the > fingertips during the second half of the l5th > century > and that the two methods continued side by side for > some time - even, it is suggested, with 6c. and 7c. > lutes. > > - does anyone know when finger plucking replaced > plectrum as the predominate style of play? > > - did it remain popular in some areas of europe for > a > longer period of time and diminish more rapidly in > others? > > on mikesoud site recently i found an interesting > explanation of precisely how the plectrum should be > properly used: > > "... For both speed and tone reasons, I suggest > approaching the instrument planning to use either > alternate picking or "economy picking". Alternate > picking means that on each stroke you switch between > downstrokes and upstrokes. Economy picking is > similar > to alternate picking, except that when you change > strings your next stroke is in the same direction > your > hand just moved." > > - are there references to "alternate" and "economy" > picking in lute literature - possibly identified > with > other names? > > - are there additional up/down picking patterns > recognized for the lute similar to the variety of > rasqueo available for the vihuela and baroque > guitar? > > grazie - bill > > > early music charango ... > http://groups.google.com/group/charango > > > > ___ > > Win a BlackBerry device from O2 with Yahoo!. Enter > now. http://www.yahoo.co.uk/blackberry > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > ___ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com
[LUTE] Re: alternate and economy picking
That's right, Leonard, the emphasis goes inside-out on every other triplet beat in runs of 6/8, 9/8, etc. This happens in Tinctoris, too, btw. He switches suddenly to a subdivision of 6, then 9 --and then, horrors!, 7-- in his gloss on Le Souvenir in the Segovia. I took the easy way out and have taught my right index finger (or up-pick) to accent in those bits. "Each to his own", said the farmer as he kissed the cow. Sean On Mar 12, 2006, at 3:53 PM, Leonard Williams wrote: > Regarding Economy Picking-- > I find that in six-eight time economy picking works nicely on > adjacent strings. That's a case where up-down-up-etc can get a little > funny > with beat emphasis. It can be tricky, but it can also make things a > little > easier. Good to mark the music to learn it. > > Leonard Williams > > On 3/12/06 3:33 PM, "Sean Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> >> On Mar 12, 2006, at 10:50 AM, bill kilpatrick wrote: >> >>> in a previous post from arne keller - no subject was >>> given but he was asking for notation advise - he says >>> that according to tinctoris, there was a change from >>> playing the lute with plectrum to plucking it with the >>> fingertips during the second half of the l5th century >>> and that the two methods continued side by side for >>> some time - even, it is suggested, with 6c. and 7c. >>> lutes. >>> >>> - does anyone know when finger plucking replaced >>> plectrum as the predominate style of play? >>> >>> - did it remain popular in some areas of europe for a >>> longer period of time and diminish more rapidly in >>> others? >> >> >> Dear Bill, >> From the manuscript evidence, I'd say the plectrum style started to >> lose momentum from the 1490's. There is evidence it still existed but >> the references to it diminish in favor of the fingered possibilities. >> There is the duo for two lutes on the Passemezzo antico in the >> "Intabulatura di Lauto del Divino Francesco damilano et delleccelente >> pietro paulo Borrono da Milano... Libro second, Venetiis MDXLVI" which >> is entirely playable on the lute w/ plectrum. We know that one (or >> both) of them could use a pick if necessary. Since they were >> infinitely >> more reknown for their counterpoint and chanson intabulations, I'd >> further guess that this was more a novelty than the rule. >> >> We have to be careful surmising when an instrument or style died out. >> There is the country wedding in the 2nd book of Don Quixote where >> rebecs and pipes and tabors are mentioned. Of course this could be my >> translator's license (T. Smollet, 1754) >> >> So when did finger-picked polyphony begin? There is the note in the >> Buxheimer that a certain piece could be played on the lute or organ. >> Even this could mean that one part might be played on a "cythera" >> (--lute? guittern? citole?) and the rest played on the organ. Aside >> from that the evidence delightfully scant. Surely some clever soul put >> 2 and 2 together but the chances of him a) writing down his "Eureka, >> this is how to play it w/ fingers" and b) it surviving are very slim. >> Note the extraordinary circumstances of each surviving text as it is. >> >> >>> >>> on mikesoud site recently i found an interesting >>> explanation of precisely how the plectrum should be >>> properly used: >>> >>> "... For both speed and tone reasons, I suggest >>> approaching the instrument planning to use either >>> alternate picking or "economy picking". Alternate >>> picking means that on each stroke you switch between >>> downstrokes and upstrokes. Economy picking is similar >>> to alternate picking, except that when you change >>> strings your next stroke is in the same direction your >>> hand just moved." >>> >>> - are there references to "alternate" and "economy" >>> picking in lute literature - possibly identified with >>> other names? >> >> since the early finger picked styles are closely built on the plectrum >> styles I'd say the 'economy' variety was a no-no. Strong beats fit >> nicely on a down-stroke and sound nicer on an octaved course. (Did >> they >> use octave courses on in the 15th century? Unknown. ) >> >> There. I've loaded you up w/ more questions than answers. Hope this >> helps! ;^) >> >> Sean >> >> >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >
[LUTE] Re: alternate and economy picking
Regarding Economy Picking-- I find that in six-eight time economy picking works nicely on adjacent strings. That's a case where up-down-up-etc can get a little funny with beat emphasis. It can be tricky, but it can also make things a little easier. Good to mark the music to learn it. Leonard Williams On 3/12/06 3:33 PM, "Sean Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On Mar 12, 2006, at 10:50 AM, bill kilpatrick wrote: > >> in a previous post from arne keller - no subject was >> given but he was asking for notation advise - he says >> that according to tinctoris, there was a change from >> playing the lute with plectrum to plucking it with the >> fingertips during the second half of the l5th century >> and that the two methods continued side by side for >> some time - even, it is suggested, with 6c. and 7c. >> lutes. >> >> - does anyone know when finger plucking replaced >> plectrum as the predominate style of play? >> >> - did it remain popular in some areas of europe for a >> longer period of time and diminish more rapidly in >> others? > > > Dear Bill, > From the manuscript evidence, I'd say the plectrum style started to > lose momentum from the 1490's. There is evidence it still existed but > the references to it diminish in favor of the fingered possibilities. > There is the duo for two lutes on the Passemezzo antico in the > "Intabulatura di Lauto del Divino Francesco damilano et delleccelente > pietro paulo Borrono da Milano... Libro second, Venetiis MDXLVI" which > is entirely playable on the lute w/ plectrum. We know that one (or > both) of them could use a pick if necessary. Since they were infinitely > more reknown for their counterpoint and chanson intabulations, I'd > further guess that this was more a novelty than the rule. > > We have to be careful surmising when an instrument or style died out. > There is the country wedding in the 2nd book of Don Quixote where > rebecs and pipes and tabors are mentioned. Of course this could be my > translator's license (T. Smollet, 1754) > > So when did finger-picked polyphony begin? There is the note in the > Buxheimer that a certain piece could be played on the lute or organ. > Even this could mean that one part might be played on a "cythera" > (--lute? guittern? citole?) and the rest played on the organ. Aside > from that the evidence delightfully scant. Surely some clever soul put > 2 and 2 together but the chances of him a) writing down his "Eureka, > this is how to play it w/ fingers" and b) it surviving are very slim. > Note the extraordinary circumstances of each surviving text as it is. > > >> >> on mikesoud site recently i found an interesting >> explanation of precisely how the plectrum should be >> properly used: >> >> "... For both speed and tone reasons, I suggest >> approaching the instrument planning to use either >> alternate picking or "economy picking". Alternate >> picking means that on each stroke you switch between >> downstrokes and upstrokes. Economy picking is similar >> to alternate picking, except that when you change >> strings your next stroke is in the same direction your >> hand just moved." >> >> - are there references to "alternate" and "economy" >> picking in lute literature - possibly identified with >> other names? > > since the early finger picked styles are closely built on the plectrum > styles I'd say the 'economy' variety was a no-no. Strong beats fit > nicely on a down-stroke and sound nicer on an octaved course. (Did they > use octave courses on in the 15th century? Unknown. ) > > There. I've loaded you up w/ more questions than answers. Hope this > helps! ;^) > > Sean > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tinctoris
Dear Stuart, Long necks make a lot of sense. Fingering chords and polyphony w/ the left hand can get difficult up the neck --don't you just hate 'i's on the 6th course? Single lines are much easier and you still have that low range if you need it. Also, w/ a longer string length you get a larger space between the 12th and 11th fret, for example, than those little short necked turtles. I've often heard that those glued-on high frets are a modern invention. Is that still the prevailing theory? I wonder if early lutes offered more than 9 or 10 frets on the neck? I've often seen vihuelas w/ 10 tied frets and my ren guitar has 11. Maybe that was the waisted instruments' lure Sean On Mar 12, 2006, at 2:03 PM, Stuart Walsh wrote: > Sean Smith wrote: > >> I think some pieces in Spinacino are modified 5c reductions since they >> are high on the neck >> > > I've just got hold of Woodfield's book, 'The Early History of the > Viol' (1984). Woodfield says that, by the mid-1480s the vihuela...'with > its long neck' ...was firmly established. He gives several > illustrations > of long-necked instruments. I've mislaid my copy of 'Lute News' where > Jon Banks outlines his case that some music in the Segovia MS and > elsewhere, is for lute trio but I'm sure he suggested that the music > was > for lute - OR - for similar plucked instruments. > > A plucked instrument with a long neck offers the possibility (musical > and/or purely theatrical) of playing in different ranges of it. Maybe > Spinacino was emulating the practice of viola/vihuela players? > >> and only sneak in the 6th course rarely for a Bb >> on the 6th course (eg, Vostre a maistres, O venus bant, Amours amours >> and others). Never in those pieces is it an open 6th course which >> could >> have moved the tessitura of the song down a 4th making them SO much >> easier. These are very decorated versions of 3-voice chansons so >> perhaps w/ less decoration 4-voice songs were also possible. >> >> I suspect that what we don't know about this era and the lute would >> fill a very educational book. >> >> all the best, >> Sean Smith >> >> >> >> >> > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tinctoris
Sean Smith wrote: >I think some pieces in Spinacino are modified 5c reductions since they >are high on the neck > I've just got hold of Woodfield's book, 'The Early History of the Viol' (1984). Woodfield says that, by the mid-1480s the vihuela...'with its long neck' ...was firmly established. He gives several illustrations of long-necked instruments. I've mislaid my copy of 'Lute News' where Jon Banks outlines his case that some music in the Segovia MS and elsewhere, is for lute trio but I'm sure he suggested that the music was for lute - OR - for similar plucked instruments. A plucked instrument with a long neck offers the possibility (musical and/or purely theatrical) of playing in different ranges of it. Maybe Spinacino was emulating the practice of viola/vihuela players? >and only sneak in the 6th course rarely for a Bb >on the 6th course (eg, Vostre a maistres, O venus bant, Amours amours >and others). Never in those pieces is it an open 6th course which could >have moved the tessitura of the song down a 4th making them SO much >easier. These are very decorated versions of 3-voice chansons so >perhaps w/ less decoration 4-voice songs were also possible. > >I suspect that what we don't know about this era and the lute would >fill a very educational book. > >all the best, >Sean Smith > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tinctoris
> However, I can't imagine > the intonation being better when you play 6th course-5th fret, > compared to > 5th course-open. On the other hand, maybe you tune it to be correct at those frets where it's stopped because: a) it sounds horrible as open b) if your thumb 'lives' somewhere on the bottom course, that becomes the "open" string. c) ?? The rates are lovely at the Hotel Speculation this time of year, aren't they? Sean > > Does anyone have any ideas about this? > Nancy Carlin > >>> Sean-- >>> >>> You wrote: I think some pieces in Spinacino are modified 5c reductions since they are high on the neck and only sneak in the 6th course rarely for a Bb on the 6th course (eg, Vostre a maistres, O venus bant, Amours amours and others). Never in those pieces is it an open 6th course which could have moved the tessitura of the song down a 4th making them SO much easier. These are very decorated versions of 3-voice chansons so perhaps w/ less decoration 4-voice songs were also possible. >>> >>> I'm not familiar with the pieces, but I'm wondering if >>> lowering the >>> fifth course one tone for an open Bb makes things easier, as with >>> some >>> 6-course pieces with G lowered to F? >> >> I have no doubt that they would have lowered the lowest course as >> necessary (or courseS, cf. Dalza). The smaller neck also makes it easy >> to get that left thumb on the 5th course. Ganassi (c1530) give lots >> of >> different different tunings for viols w/ different missing strings and >> we know that he was a lutenist, too. Then there is the ongoing >> question >> of how early fiddles were tuned. Judging from the relatedness of the >> vihuela de mano and v. de arco I'm sure there was a mishmash of >> personal preferences of 4ths or 5ths (and 3rds) and where to put them. >> And judging again from the current varieties personal tastes of >> tunings, it would be absurd to say "This is how X tuned Y in the year >> Z >> in the year N" >> >> A Spinacino tangent: I'm surprised at one aspect of pieces that could >> be played predominantly on the first 5 courses that only ocassionally >> use the 6th: The odd thing is that the lowest course is never an open >> course: 1st fret, 2nd, 3rd --but _never_ open. Both solos and duos >> (ok, >> the only duo superious that uses the 6th open is De tous biens playne, >> hmmm). Any ideas for this folks? >> >> In the new book of Consort music recently published by the Lute >> Society, Jon Banks (rightly) offers it in mensural notation --as it >> was >> in contemporary sources. You tune your lute as you see fit. >> >> all the best, >> Sean >> >> >>> >>> On 3/11/06 1:03 PM, "Sean Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>> Dear Arne, I was just looking at Tinctors' single line 'solos' over popular tenors taken from the Segovia. (from his collected works. No, I didn't get the editor information but will next time if you'd like it). To my eye it's obviously for lute --or bowed instrument if you're very handy. As Jon Banks points out in his article in Early Music (May 1999 --thanks Stewart!) these decorated lines are in the gathering that he thinks are for lute duos and they certainly feel like it. He must have been quite a player judging from their intricacy so I'll assume he knew what he was talking about. On the other hand, each of the decorations fit perfectly on a descant (plucked) instrument of 5 courses but these, as I said, are decorations over the tenor. If Paumann had been playing solos on his lute 30 years previous, and had this rumored 7th course, then there is plenty of time to develop techniques to play complete chansons on a single instrument and reach the level of sophistication that Spinacino prints. Judging from the various styles, I suspect he was drawing from a variety of lutenists. I think some pieces in Spinacino are modified 5c reductions since they are high on the neck and only sneak in the 6th course rarely for a Bb on the 6th course (eg, Vostre a maistres, O venus bant, Amours amours and others). Never in those pieces is it an open 6th course which could have moved the tessitura of the song down a 4th making them SO much easier. These are very decorated versions of 3-voice chansons so perhaps w/ less decoration 4-voice songs were also possible. I suspect that what we don't know about this era and the lute would fill a very educational book. all the best, Sean Smith ps, sorry if this is a duplicate; I didn't see it show up on the list yet. On Mar 11, 2006, at 7:27 AM, Arne Keller wrote: > > Dear All, > > in the first part of David van Edward's fascinating lute history it > is > mentioned that: >>>
[LUTE] Re: Tinctoris
About those bass courses - I have just come across another place where there are some curious uses of stopped bass notes, when an open string would have been a lot easier. It's John Johnson's "Carmen's Whistle". In addition to the bass notes there are some places where the fingering of the chord Johnson has chosen is more difficult than another option. Possible reasons for this are that it was written out as part of someone lute lesson on how to play these chords, or that there was something about the intonation being better in these configurations. However, I can't imagine the intonation being better when you play 6th course-5th fret, compared to 5th course-open. Does anyone have any ideas about this? Nancy Carlin > > Sean-- > > > > You wrote: > >>I think some pieces in Spinacino are modified 5c reductions > >> since they > >> are high on the neck and only sneak in the 6th course rarely for a Bb > >> on the 6th course (eg, Vostre a maistres, O venus bant, Amours amours > >> and others). Never in those pieces is it an open 6th course which > >> could > >> have moved the tessitura of the song down a 4th making them SO much > >> easier. These are very decorated versions of 3-voice chansons so > >> perhaps w/ less decoration 4-voice songs were also possible. > > > > I'm not familiar with the pieces, but I'm wondering if > > lowering the > > fifth course one tone for an open Bb makes things easier, as with some > > 6-course pieces with G lowered to F? > >I have no doubt that they would have lowered the lowest course as >necessary (or courseS, cf. Dalza). The smaller neck also makes it easy >to get that left thumb on the 5th course. Ganassi (c1530) give lots of >different different tunings for viols w/ different missing strings and >we know that he was a lutenist, too. Then there is the ongoing question >of how early fiddles were tuned. Judging from the relatedness of the >vihuela de mano and v. de arco I'm sure there was a mishmash of >personal preferences of 4ths or 5ths (and 3rds) and where to put them. >And judging again from the current varieties personal tastes of >tunings, it would be absurd to say "This is how X tuned Y in the year Z >in the year N" > >A Spinacino tangent: I'm surprised at one aspect of pieces that could >be played predominantly on the first 5 courses that only ocassionally >use the 6th: The odd thing is that the lowest course is never an open >course: 1st fret, 2nd, 3rd --but _never_ open. Both solos and duos (ok, >the only duo superious that uses the 6th open is De tous biens playne, >hmmm). Any ideas for this folks? > >In the new book of Consort music recently published by the Lute >Society, Jon Banks (rightly) offers it in mensural notation --as it was >in contemporary sources. You tune your lute as you see fit. > >all the best, >Sean > > > > > > On 3/11/06 1:03 PM, "Sean Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > >> > >> Dear Arne, > >> > >> I was just looking at Tinctors' single line 'solos' over popular > >> tenors > >> taken from the Segovia. (from his collected works. No, I didn't get > >> the > >> editor information but will next time if you'd like it). To my eye > >> it's > >> obviously for lute --or bowed instrument if you're very handy. As Jon > >> Banks points out in his article in Early Music (May 1999 --thanks > >> Stewart!) these decorated lines are in the gathering that he thinks > >> are > >> for lute duos and they certainly feel like it. > >> > >> He must have been quite a player judging from their intricacy so I'll > >> assume he knew what he was talking about. On the other hand, each of > >> the decorations fit perfectly on a descant (plucked) instrument of 5 > >> courses but these, as I said, are decorations over the tenor. > >> > >> If Paumann had been playing solos on his lute 30 years previous, and > >> had this rumored 7th course, then there is plenty of time to develop > >> techniques to play complete chansons on a single instrument and reach > >> the level of sophistication that Spinacino prints. Judging from the > >> various styles, I suspect he was drawing from a variety of lutenists. > >> > >> I think some pieces in Spinacino are modified 5c reductions since they > >> are high on the neck and only sneak in the 6th course rarely for a Bb > >> on the 6th course (eg, Vostre a maistres, O venus bant, Amours amours > >> and others). Never in those pieces is it an open 6th course which > >> could > >> have moved the tessitura of the song down a 4th making them SO much > >> easier. These are very decorated versions of 3-voice chansons so > >> perhaps w/ less decoration 4-voice songs were also possible. > >> > >> I suspect that what we don't know about this era and the lute would > >> fill a very educational book. > >> > >> all the best, > >> Sean Smith > >> > >> ps, sorry if this is a duplicate; I didn't see it show up on the list > >> yet. > >> > >> On Mar 11, 2006, at 7:27 AM, Arne Keller wrote: > >> > >>> > >>> Dear All, > >>> > >>>
[LUTE] Re: Tinctoris
On Mar 12, 2006, at 11:02 AM, Leonard Williams wrote: > Sean-- > > You wrote: >>I think some pieces in Spinacino are modified 5c reductions >> since they >> are high on the neck and only sneak in the 6th course rarely for a Bb >> on the 6th course (eg, Vostre a maistres, O venus bant, Amours amours >> and others). Never in those pieces is it an open 6th course which >> could >> have moved the tessitura of the song down a 4th making them SO much >> easier. These are very decorated versions of 3-voice chansons so >> perhaps w/ less decoration 4-voice songs were also possible. > > I'm not familiar with the pieces, but I'm wondering if > lowering the > fifth course one tone for an open Bb makes things easier, as with some > 6-course pieces with G lowered to F? I have no doubt that they would have lowered the lowest course as necessary (or courseS, cf. Dalza). The smaller neck also makes it easy to get that left thumb on the 5th course. Ganassi (c1530) give lots of different different tunings for viols w/ different missing strings and we know that he was a lutenist, too. Then there is the ongoing question of how early fiddles were tuned. Judging from the relatedness of the vihuela de mano and v. de arco I'm sure there was a mishmash of personal preferences of 4ths or 5ths (and 3rds) and where to put them. And judging again from the current varieties personal tastes of tunings, it would be absurd to say "This is how X tuned Y in the year Z in the year N" A Spinacino tangent: I'm surprised at one aspect of pieces that could be played predominantly on the first 5 courses that only ocassionally use the 6th: The odd thing is that the lowest course is never an open course: 1st fret, 2nd, 3rd --but _never_ open. Both solos and duos (ok, the only duo superious that uses the 6th open is De tous biens playne, hmmm). Any ideas for this folks? In the new book of Consort music recently published by the Lute Society, Jon Banks (rightly) offers it in mensural notation --as it was in contemporary sources. You tune your lute as you see fit. all the best, Sean > > On 3/11/06 1:03 PM, "Sean Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> >> Dear Arne, >> >> I was just looking at Tinctors' single line 'solos' over popular >> tenors >> taken from the Segovia. (from his collected works. No, I didn't get >> the >> editor information but will next time if you'd like it). To my eye >> it's >> obviously for lute --or bowed instrument if you're very handy. As Jon >> Banks points out in his article in Early Music (May 1999 --thanks >> Stewart!) these decorated lines are in the gathering that he thinks >> are >> for lute duos and they certainly feel like it. >> >> He must have been quite a player judging from their intricacy so I'll >> assume he knew what he was talking about. On the other hand, each of >> the decorations fit perfectly on a descant (plucked) instrument of 5 >> courses but these, as I said, are decorations over the tenor. >> >> If Paumann had been playing solos on his lute 30 years previous, and >> had this rumored 7th course, then there is plenty of time to develop >> techniques to play complete chansons on a single instrument and reach >> the level of sophistication that Spinacino prints. Judging from the >> various styles, I suspect he was drawing from a variety of lutenists. >> >> I think some pieces in Spinacino are modified 5c reductions since they >> are high on the neck and only sneak in the 6th course rarely for a Bb >> on the 6th course (eg, Vostre a maistres, O venus bant, Amours amours >> and others). Never in those pieces is it an open 6th course which >> could >> have moved the tessitura of the song down a 4th making them SO much >> easier. These are very decorated versions of 3-voice chansons so >> perhaps w/ less decoration 4-voice songs were also possible. >> >> I suspect that what we don't know about this era and the lute would >> fill a very educational book. >> >> all the best, >> Sean Smith >> >> ps, sorry if this is a duplicate; I didn't see it show up on the list >> yet. >> >> On Mar 11, 2006, at 7:27 AM, Arne Keller wrote: >> >>> >>> Dear All, >>> >>> in the first part of David van Edward's fascinating lute history it >>> is >>> mentioned that: >>> >>> "Later, c.1481-3, Tinctoris mentions a sixth course and there are >>> even >>> tablatures from this period calling for a seven course lute, though >>> no >>> pictures from so early show one." >>> >>> Which tablatures are these? Any pics/transcriptions/descriptions >>> online? >>> >>> "During the second half of the l5th century, there was a change to >>> playing >>> with the fingertips, though, as Page (1981) pointed out, the two >>> methods >>> continued for some time side by side. Tinctoris (c.1481-3) wrote of >>> holding >>> the lute 'while the strings are struck by the right hand either with >>> the >>> fingers or with a plectrum', but did not imply that the use of the >>> fingers >>> was a novelty. Howeve
[LUTE] Re: alternate and economy picking
On Mar 12, 2006, at 10:50 AM, bill kilpatrick wrote: > in a previous post from arne keller - no subject was > given but he was asking for notation advise - he says > that according to tinctoris, there was a change from > playing the lute with plectrum to plucking it with the > fingertips during the second half of the l5th century > and that the two methods continued side by side for > some time - even, it is suggested, with 6c. and 7c. > lutes. > > - does anyone know when finger plucking replaced > plectrum as the predominate style of play? > > - did it remain popular in some areas of europe for a > longer period of time and diminish more rapidly in > others? Dear Bill, From the manuscript evidence, I'd say the plectrum style started to lose momentum from the 1490's. There is evidence it still existed but the references to it diminish in favor of the fingered possibilities. There is the duo for two lutes on the Passemezzo antico in the "Intabulatura di Lauto del Divino Francesco damilano et delleccelente pietro paulo Borrono da Milano... Libro second, Venetiis MDXLVI" which is entirely playable on the lute w/ plectrum. We know that one (or both) of them could use a pick if necessary. Since they were infinitely more reknown for their counterpoint and chanson intabulations, I'd further guess that this was more a novelty than the rule. We have to be careful surmising when an instrument or style died out. There is the country wedding in the 2nd book of Don Quixote where rebecs and pipes and tabors are mentioned. Of course this could be my translator's license (T. Smollet, 1754) So when did finger-picked polyphony begin? There is the note in the Buxheimer that a certain piece could be played on the lute or organ. Even this could mean that one part might be played on a "cythera" (--lute? guittern? citole?) and the rest played on the organ. Aside from that the evidence delightfully scant. Surely some clever soul put 2 and 2 together but the chances of him a) writing down his "Eureka, this is how to play it w/ fingers" and b) it surviving are very slim. Note the extraordinary circumstances of each surviving text as it is. > > on mikesoud site recently i found an interesting > explanation of precisely how the plectrum should be > properly used: > > "... For both speed and tone reasons, I suggest > approaching the instrument planning to use either > alternate picking or "economy picking". Alternate > picking means that on each stroke you switch between > downstrokes and upstrokes. Economy picking is similar > to alternate picking, except that when you change > strings your next stroke is in the same direction your > hand just moved." > > - are there references to "alternate" and "economy" > picking in lute literature - possibly identified with > other names? since the early finger picked styles are closely built on the plectrum styles I'd say the 'economy' variety was a no-no. Strong beats fit nicely on a down-stroke and sound nicer on an octaved course. (Did they use octave courses on in the 15th century? Unknown. ) There. I've loaded you up w/ more questions than answers. Hope this helps! ;^) Sean To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tinctoris
Sean-- You wrote: >I think some pieces in Spinacino are modified 5c reductions since they > are high on the neck and only sneak in the 6th course rarely for a Bb > on the 6th course (eg, Vostre a maistres, O venus bant, Amours amours > and others). Never in those pieces is it an open 6th course which could > have moved the tessitura of the song down a 4th making them SO much > easier. These are very decorated versions of 3-voice chansons so > perhaps w/ less decoration 4-voice songs were also possible. I'm not familiar with the pieces, but I'm wondering if lowering the fifth course one tone for an open Bb makes things easier, as with some 6-course pieces with G lowered to F? On 3/11/06 1:03 PM, "Sean Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Dear Arne, > > I was just looking at Tinctors' single line 'solos' over popular tenors > taken from the Segovia. (from his collected works. No, I didn't get the > editor information but will next time if you'd like it). To my eye it's > obviously for lute --or bowed instrument if you're very handy. As Jon > Banks points out in his article in Early Music (May 1999 --thanks > Stewart!) these decorated lines are in the gathering that he thinks are > for lute duos and they certainly feel like it. > > He must have been quite a player judging from their intricacy so I'll > assume he knew what he was talking about. On the other hand, each of > the decorations fit perfectly on a descant (plucked) instrument of 5 > courses but these, as I said, are decorations over the tenor. > > If Paumann had been playing solos on his lute 30 years previous, and > had this rumored 7th course, then there is plenty of time to develop > techniques to play complete chansons on a single instrument and reach > the level of sophistication that Spinacino prints. Judging from the > various styles, I suspect he was drawing from a variety of lutenists. > > I think some pieces in Spinacino are modified 5c reductions since they > are high on the neck and only sneak in the 6th course rarely for a Bb > on the 6th course (eg, Vostre a maistres, O venus bant, Amours amours > and others). Never in those pieces is it an open 6th course which could > have moved the tessitura of the song down a 4th making them SO much > easier. These are very decorated versions of 3-voice chansons so > perhaps w/ less decoration 4-voice songs were also possible. > > I suspect that what we don't know about this era and the lute would > fill a very educational book. > > all the best, > Sean Smith > > ps, sorry if this is a duplicate; I didn't see it show up on the list > yet. > > On Mar 11, 2006, at 7:27 AM, Arne Keller wrote: > >> >> Dear All, >> >> in the first part of David van Edward's fascinating lute history it is >> mentioned that: >> >> "Later, c.1481-3, Tinctoris mentions a sixth course and there are even >> tablatures from this period calling for a seven course lute, though no >> pictures from so early show one." >> >> Which tablatures are these? Any pics/transcriptions/descriptions >> online? >> >> "During the second half of the l5th century, there was a change to >> playing >> with the fingertips, though, as Page (1981) pointed out, the two >> methods >> continued for some time side by side. Tinctoris (c.1481-3) wrote of >> holding >> the lute 'while the strings are struck by the right hand either with >> the >> fingers or with a plectrum', but did not imply that the use of the >> fingers >> was a novelty. However, the change was very significant for the lute's >> future development, for it allowed the playing of several parts at >> once, >> and meant that the huge repertoire of vocal part music both sacred and >> secular became available to lute players. This function was made >> easier by >> the invention about this time of special systems of notation known as >> tablature into which much of this repertoire was transcribed >> [intabulated]. >> There were three main kinds of tablature for the lute, developed in >> Germany, France and Italy respectively. A fourth early system, >> 'intavolatura alla Napolitana', was also used from time to time. Of the >> four main types the French may have been the earliest." >> >> Why is that? >> >> "The German one was probably written during the lifetime of Conrad >> Paumann >> (d 1473), the supposed inventor of the system. Although Tinctoris had >> mentioned a six-course lute, these first tablatures, and indeed the >> very >> names by which the strings of the instrument were known, suggest five >> courses as still the most usual number at this time." >> >> Tinctoris also says (I believe it must be in the same treatise) that >> four-part playing was taking place. >> I don't suppose four parts are possible without the 6th course? >> >> >> Any ideas? >> >> >> Best greetings, >> >> Arne Keller. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> > >
[LUTE] alternate and economy picking
in a previous post from arne keller - no subject was given but he was asking for notation advise - he says that according to tinctoris, there was a change from playing the lute with plectrum to plucking it with the fingertips during the second half of the l5th century and that the two methods continued side by side for some time - even, it is suggested, with 6c. and 7c. lutes. - does anyone know when finger plucking replaced plectrum as the predominate style of play? - did it remain popular in some areas of europe for a longer period of time and diminish more rapidly in others? on mikesoud site recently i found an interesting explanation of precisely how the plectrum should be properly used: "... For both speed and tone reasons, I suggest approaching the instrument planning to use either alternate picking or "economy picking". Alternate picking means that on each stroke you switch between downstrokes and upstrokes. Economy picking is similar to alternate picking, except that when you change strings your next stroke is in the same direction your hand just moved." - are there references to "alternate" and "economy" picking in lute literature - possibly identified with other names? - are there additional up/down picking patterns recognized for the lute similar to the variety of rasqueo available for the vihuela and baroque guitar? grazie - bill early music charango ... http://groups.google.com/group/charango ___ Win a BlackBerry device from O2 with Yahoo!. Enter now. http://www.yahoo.co.uk/blackberry To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] A Beautiful Single (;
Just to let the list know that my very ornate baroque guitar (Voboam 1641)is still on sale, and that I have just lowered the asking price. Please see either: http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute/forsale.html http://www.lutesoc.co.uk/small.htm Thanks and bon dimanche, Benjamin To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] A Beautiful Couple
Two baroque lutes for sale. Several photos at: www.luteonline.de For further information write to me: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Barer Str. 70, D-80799 München Tel.: +49 (0)89 / 272 24 07 WebSite: http://www.luteonline.de To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
