[LUTE] Re: Blackmore, was : A "normal" voyce ?
If some music is objectively superior to some other piece of music, it seems to me, one should be able to articulate in what it's superiority consists. I get the impression complexity by itself is not enough to establish superiority. Of course I think that the music I find worthy of interest is better than some other music, because I'm not interested in that other music. You may agree with me or not. Whether you do or not does not mean I'm not still interested. Many post Bachists regard an interest in lute music and early music in general, this way, i.e. asserting the superiority of what is inferior. Gary - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2006 7:37 AM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Blackmore, was : A "normal" voyce ? However it would be a mistake to confuse or conflate these two notions. The second is not only infinitely worse than the first, but often acts in reverse fashion, alleging the inferiority of the superior (cf. Mark Wheeler). RT I don't quite understand that if I believe one music style is not superior to another, how I can be "alleging the inferiority of the superior". Please tell me which music style I have said is inferior ? My ALK quote simply said that he didn't like the extreme rubato that classical musicians often use and preffered the "tightness" of a rock band. That does not mean that he thinks classical music is bad, just that he prefers another way of performing renaissance music. It seems that you have a problem with rock music and accepting it as an artistic language. Do you view it as inferior ? Maybe inferior to baroque pastische ? Mark > > I think beauty is truly in the eye (or ear) of the beholder. > > Gary > > - Original Message - > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Cc: > Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 7:19 AM > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Blackmore, was : A "normal" voyce ? > > > >> >> But to not make distinctions - decisions about which >> of things has more merit - is to go against deeply >> ingrained human desires and experiences. It is >> actually no less than denying one's own self. >> >> Do you have trouble making a decision between a >> well-cooked meal and a poorly cooked one? I'll bet >> you don't! (I've had more of the former.) Can you >> say that whole types of approaches to food preparation >> are much better than others - say, fast-food >> McDonald's vs. a slow-food gourmet restaurant? I >> _hope_ you can. And I'll bet you don't think highly >> of people who don't take the mental effort to >> appreciate the distinction between a Big Mac and a >> Beef Wellington. I know which I prefer. Still, I'll >> admit to eating (and even being able to swallow) >> McDonald's a couple of times a year. >> >> Yes indeed, Bach's music is better than Led >> Zeppelin's, _far_ better, in fact. But not just >> because it is more complex. (Otherwise, we'd have to >> give the award of "best music" to Boulez or Babbitt or >> some obscure logarithmist.) >> >> I would argue that Bach's music is among the best >> works of art that the human race has _ever_ produced, >> regardless of time, place, or society. But that >> doesn't mean that his music is the absolute best at >> everything, nor does it invalidate other types of >> music. I would doubt that a Bach fugue would relate >> to the specific everyday experieces of the inner-city >> street thug, for instance - that's where hip-hop came >> from. But beyond the banal accidents of day to day >> life, deep in the soul of that person, there is >> something in the music of Bach that speaks to the soul >> in ways that a hip-hop ditty never, ever can; now or >> in a million years. >> >> Yes, better. >> >> Chris >> >> >> >> __ >> Do You Yahoo!? >> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >> http://mail.yahoo.com >> >> >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> >> >> >> -- >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG Free Edition. >> Version: 7.5.428 / Virus Database: 268.13.17/505 - Release Date: > 10/27/2006 3:15 PM >> >> > > > > ___ $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. Signup at www.doteasy.com -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.428 / Virus Database: 268.13.17/505 - Release Date: 10/27/2006 3:15 PM --
[LUTE] Re: Blackmore, was : A "normal" voyce ?
Beauty indeed is, if it is in the eye of the holder because the eye and the beholder are. I'm sorry, I don't see the circularity of my statement. If you want to assert the objective superiority of some music, can you tell me how you determine said superiority? How does one establish that some music is objectively superior? Gary - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "gary digman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "lutelist" Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2006 7:46 AM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Blackmore, was : A "normal" voyce ? > Gary, > > --- gary digman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > Of course we make distinctions. Which is what we do > > when we say we prefer > > one piece of music over another. > > This is the type of circular argument that gets kids > Fs on their gradeschool book reports: "I liked it > because it was good." Preference is only preference. > > > > But, it seems to > > me, to assert that one > > piece of music is objectively superior to another is > > to impugn the taste of > > one who prefers the supposedly inferior music. This > > I think easily lends > > itself to elitism and snobbery. > > > Not at all. The superior music is not always the > thing that is prefered. We're talking about judging > the work itself, not the listener's preference. And > we can recognize the existence of personal preference > without raising it to the level of law. One can enjoy > a lot of different styles for a variety of reasons; > some of it better than others, all of it worthy of > being. > > > > I think beauty is truly in the eye (or ear) of the > > beholder. > > > > Then there is no such thing as beauty. > > Chris > > > > > > > Get your email and see which of your friends are online - Right on the New Yahoo.com > (http://www.yahoo.com/preview) > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.428 / Virus Database: 268.13.17/505 - Release Date: 10/27/2006 3:15 PM > > To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Blackmore, was : A "normal" voyce ?
In einer eMail vom 29.10.2006 09:13:54 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > Many post Bachists regard an interest in lute music and early music in > general, this way, i.e. asserting the superiority of what is inferior. > What does a post Bachist believe and what does a Bachist believe? Could you please give me an example of "asserting the superiority of what is inferior". best wishes Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Blackmore, was : A "normal" voyce ?
"Post Bachist" may be too glib. I was referring to musicians who take Bach as the beginning of "real music". Many of these musicians regard lute music, at least pre-Bach, as inferior and regard those who love it as quirky. Gary - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2006 1:29 AM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Blackmore, was : A "normal" voyce ? In einer eMail vom 29.10.2006 09:13:54 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Many post Bachists regard an interest in lute music and early music in general, this way, i.e. asserting the superiority of what is inferior. What does a post Bachist believe and what does a Bachist believe? Could you please give me an example of "asserting the superiority of what is inferior". best wishes Mark -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.428 / Virus Database: 268.13.17/505 - Release Date: 10/27/2006 3:15 PM -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] keys for Falkenhagen sonatas and partitas
could some kind person please let me what the keys for Falkenhagen's Partitas and Sonatas are? The only CD I have of the partitas gives the first three as being in A Major and the last three as Bb Major but I think this is the wrong way round. I cannot find any reference to the keys used for the sonatas. thanks Charles To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lully's Ritournelle Italienne for 10-courser published!
Thanks Arto, I haven't seen this one yet, but the other one was very nice, go on with this... Have you also a midi of it? Donatella http://web.tiscali.it/awebd P.S. Wayne, there must be someone lurking for spam- addresses, because every time I write to the list my spam increases, or wakes up suddently. - Original Message - From: "Arto Wikla" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2006 11:07 PM Subject: [LUTE] Lully's Ritournelle Italienne for 10-courser published! > > Dear lutenists, > > I made my preliminary version of Lully's "Ritournelle Italienne" for > 10-courser public. I'll add some fingerings to the tabulature later, but I > am just now so eager to publish this arrangement that I cannot wait... > The piece is really good, and I hope my arrangement will make at least > some justice to Lully's art and genius! My brand new tab is in my > page of Lully's Marche: > http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/wikla/mus/Lully/Marche/ > > All the best, > > Arto > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
[LUTE] Re: Frei body renaissance lute
In a message dated 10/27/2006 6:03:11 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, anthony.hi [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Jacob Heringman who plays with gut on recordings told me that he prefered 64 or 67 or 71 lengths for better range of tone. He said that, "On the Pickeringe, some of the pieces are on a 64-cm lute, and some on a 58-cm lute. And on the Siena, I play four lutes: 2 at 60 cm, 1 at 59, and 1 at 70." Anthony He also told me once that, for him, the longer string lengths allow for the finger positions to "stretch out" more, actually making it more comfortable to play difficult complex fingerings on pieces where the left hand fingers "cramp" in a smaller area of the fingerboard. I think he was referring to this when I asked him about his Josquin intabulations recording and choice of lutes. Kenneth -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] New Dowland CD
In browsing Amazon, I came across a new release of a Dowland CD. No, _not_ Sting, but Nigel North. It is on Naxos, and the album title is, "DowlandFancyes, Dreams, and Spirits" It is "Lute Music 1" perhaps indicating there will perhaps be more to come. As it is on an inexpensive label, I ordered it. I think I heard somewhere, that Nigel is in the process of recording the complete Dowland works bravo! ed Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Blackmore, was : A "normal" voyce ?
Ah, the passive voice... On Saturday, Oct 28, 2006, at 08:24 America/Los_Angeles, Roman Turovsky wrote: > ALK is > not exactly known for depth of musical understanding There's a long list of prominent performers who know him for precisely that. Start with Paul O'Dette and Ellen Hargis. You can start trashing them as well, of course, but I'd suggest not going there. > or even scholarly appropriateness. > He is a fabulous entertainer and a competent performer "There are continuo players, and then there's Andrew Lawrence-King." -- Paul O'Dette. > who > uses the same manner from troubadours to Teddy Bear's Picnic. He does have his own style. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Blackmore, was : A "normal" voyce ?
> Ah, the passive voice... > > On Saturday, Oct 28, 2006, at 08:24 America/Los_Angeles, Roman Turovsky > wrote: > >> ALK is >> not exactly known for depth of musical understanding > > There's a long list of prominent performers who know him for precisely > that. Start with Paul O'Dette and Ellen Hargis. You can start > trashing them as well, of course, but I'd suggest not going there. I have gone there before, and so did others. > >> or even scholarly appropriateness. >> He is a fabulous entertainer and a competent performer > > "There are continuo players, and then there's Andrew Lawrence-King." > -- Paul O'Dette. There are some even better. There are even SOLOISTS out there. >> who >> uses the same manner from troubadours to Teddy Bear's Picnic. > > He does have his own style. And so does Karamazov. And I prefer EK's brynza to ALK's wensleydale. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Blackmore, was : A "normal" voyce ?
In einer eMail vom 29.10.2006 17:31:41 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > And so does Karamazov. And I prefer EK's brynza to ALK's wensleydale. > RT Someone told me once that Paul O'Dette original name was Paul Audet. Not sure or very interested if this is true, but if he had changed his name to Odettski then I am sure Roman would like his playing :) Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Blackmore, was : A "normal" voyce ?
On Sunday, Oct 29, 2006, at 08:43 America/Los_Angeles, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Someone told me once that Paul O'Dette original name was Paul Audet. I believe Paul's grandfather changed the name because he was tired of hearing it pronounced "Ah-day". Paul has actually used the old spelling on a at least one Naxos recording. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Blackmore, was : A "normal" voyce ?
On Sunday, Oct 29, 2006, at 08:28 America/Los_Angeles, Roman Turovsky wrote: >> There's a long list of prominent performers who know him for >> precisely that. Start with Paul O'Dette and Ellen Hargis. You can >> start trashing them as well, of course, but I'd suggest not going >> there. > I have gone there before, and so did others. I'm aware that fools often go where musicians fear to tread. I was suggesting that *you* not go there now, particularly when you seem to be in your mid-level rhetorical overkill mode. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Continuo Question
My attempts to teach myself continuo continue... I'm looking at a sonata by Corelli: two instrumental parts plus basso continuo. Under the bass notes are lots of indications for dominant 7th and 9th chords, at places where the 7ths and 9ths appear in the instrumental parts. That's no problem. I can find the harmonies okay, but my question is: if the 7th or 9th is being supplied in the upper parts, isn't that the place where I should *not* be playing it? For one thing, with all those streams of seventh chords I sound more like Chuck Berry than Corelli, but I'm thinking that perhaps those 7's and 9's under the bass are editorial. Maybe the editor worked backwards: starting with the upper parts, and figuring the bassline accordingly. Or did Corelli really want all those 7ths and 9ths doubled in the continuo part? David R [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.rastallmusic.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Frei body renaissance lute
Jacob also has long fingers. Nancy >In a message dated 10/27/2006 6:03:11 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, anthony.hi >[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > >Jacob Heringman who plays with gut on recordings told me that he >prefered 64 or 67 or 71 lengths for better range of tone. He said that, >"On the Pickeringe, some of the pieces are on a 64-cm lute, and some >on a 58-cm lute. And on the Siena, I play four lutes: 2 at 60 cm, 1 >at 59, and 1 at 70." >Anthony > > >He also told me once that, for him, the longer string lengths allow for the >finger positions to "stretch out" more, actually making it more comfortable >to play difficult complex fingerings on pieces where the left hand fingers >"cramp" in a smaller area of the fingerboard. I think he was referring to >this >when I asked him about his Josquin intabulations recording and choice of >lutes. > >Kenneth > >-- > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Nancy Carlin Associates P.O. Box 6499 Concord, CA 94524 USA phone 925/686-5800 fax 925/680-2582 web site - www.nancycarlinassociates.com Administrator THE LUTE SOCIETY OF AMERICA web site - http://LuteSocietyofAmerica.org --
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Sign in Theorbo ms.
Dear Collected Wisdom, some pieces of the Goess theorbo ms. bear a sign which resembles a quaver break in modern staff notation. At first glance, I often misinterpreted it as a cross, but it isn't a cross. More often than not, it appears with dotted notes. Is it a break (short taking of breath, so to say)? Or an ornament, rather? -- Best, Mathias -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Weiss
Greetings I am writing an undergraduate paper for a music literature class on Italian and French baroque styles in Weiss's works. I am aware of Dr. Douglas Alton Smith's doctoral dissertation on Weiss's late sonatas but it is unpublished and I am having much trouble contacting him/finding it. Additionally, are there other sources that any of you are familiar with that address the aforementioned topic? Best- Nathan Lindzey. This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: more than 6 courses
Andreas Schlegel wrote: > > 1611 Rom, Kapsberger 10 course Has anybody mentioned Ballard, 1611. Rainer adS PS I think he does not use all 1ß course in a single piece. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Continuo Question
The figures are not editorial. If you look at the facsimiles of Corelli's published opuses (opera?) you'll see that they're all heavily figured. You are not generally required to play ALL the figures, they're just to let you what's happening above. Of course it usually sounds great in Corelli to grab all the suspensions you can, but it works just as well to have the other parts clash against you. One caveat: there are places where a dissonance is set up in the upper voice and not resolved. In this case it's usually good to double the dissonance and resolve it properly. This almost never happens in Corelli, though, as his voice leading is superb. One last thing: they're not really ninth chords like Chuck Berry, in that they don't have a seventh in them and they don't have dominant function. They're just triads in which the octave of the bass is delayed. That's why it's okay to leave it out. On the other hand, since 7 often (Not always) resolves to 6, in this case you really shouldn't play a triad as it never sounds good. If you can't do the 7-6, just play a third above the base. CW To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Continuo Question
David Rastall wrote: > My attempts to teach myself continuo continue... > > I'm looking at a sonata by Corelli: two instrumental parts plus > basso continuo. Under the bass notes are lots of indications for > dominant 7th and 9th chords probably not all dominants, to be nitpicky... > , at places where the 7ths and 9ths appear > in the instrumental parts. That's no problem. I can find the > harmonies okay, but my question is: if the 7th or 9th is being > supplied in the upper parts, isn't that the place where I should > *not* be playing it? I think the definitive answer is "maybe." Surely the mere presence of a note in the violin part is not necessarily a reason to avoid it in the continuo. You don't avoid thirds and fifths for that reason. On the other hand, I don't think a figure that doubles a melody note makes the note required in the continuo. It's a matter of style, or, in your case, just what sort of lesson you want to give yourself that day. > I'm > thinking that perhaps those 7's and 9's under the bass are > editorial. Maybe the editor worked backwards: starting with the > upper parts, and figuring the bassline accordingly. Or did Corelli > really want all those 7ths and 9ths doubled in the continuo part? Unless you answer your first question with a hard and fast rule one way or the other, the completeness of the figures doesn't settle the question -- fewer figures don't mean you must omit the sevenths and ninths, and more figures don't necessarily mean you have to play them. For what it's worth, Corelli's trio sonatas acquired more figures as the years went on. In Chrysander's preface to his edition (now available in a Dover reprint) he notes that the later Dutch and English editions had more figures than the earlier Italian editions. I think the level of figuration reflects an attitude by the composer, original publisher, or editor about how much information is useful. In Couperin's publications, the figures amount to a sort of short score; you can just about create the upper lines from the figures. It's probably best to resist the temptation. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Weiss
On Sunday, Oct 29, 2006, at 14:28 America/Los_Angeles, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > I am writing an undergraduate paper for a music literature class on > Italian and > French baroque styles in Weiss's works. I am aware of Dr. Douglas > Alton > Smith's doctoral dissertation on Weiss's late sonatas but it is > unpublished > and I am having much trouble contacting him/finding it. Additionally, > are > there other sources that any of you are familiar with that address the > aforementioned topic? Maybe there's someone on the list who can tell you whether the LSA microfilm library has it. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Weiss
Hi Nathan, I have the dissertation ms in old 1980s Xerox copy format. It's not pretty but readable. Perhaps I could get it copied (don't have the time or patience to stand at a copier for a couple of hours) and get it to you. I'm from Athens Texas originally and was in the music program at UT where early music was any recital before noon. No promises but I'll see what I can work up. Smith's dissertation on Weiss is so well constructed that it makes good reading unlike many other thesis and dissertations. Best, Rob Dorsey http://RobDorsey.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2006 5:28 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Weiss Greetings I am writing an undergraduate paper for a music literature class on Italian and French baroque styles in Weiss's works. I am aware of Dr. Douglas Alton Smith's doctoral dissertation on Weiss's late sonatas but it is unpublished and I am having much trouble contacting him/finding it. Additionally, are there other sources that any of you are familiar with that address the aforementioned topic? Best- Nathan Lindzey. This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
