[LUTE] Re: Hexachords

[Nancy Carlin]

>>Yes, I have just heard from Ann Burns and these tapes are still 
>>available. You can get them from Anne at
>>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>T-7 (1 tape from seminar evening lecture) "Intro to Modes"
>>T-26 - 30 (5 tapes from daily seminar class) "In the Mode"
>>T-36 - 40 (5 tapes from daily seminar class) "Beyond the Modes"
>>Each tape is $5 (so $25 for the class sets) plus postage: inquire
>>No guarantees on the quality of the recordings at this remove.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Does LSA still have available Lyle Nordstrom's "Intro to Modes" and "Beyond
>>the Modes"?  It was a set of taped lectures and printed examples.  Would
>>that be helpful?
>>Regards,
>>Leonard Williams
>>On 7/25/07 11:36 AM, "Caroline Usher" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> > Supposing one wanted to learn the fundamentals of music as it was taught
>> > in the 16th century, starting with the gamut and hexachords. Are there
>> > any sources which approach this pedagogically?  There is an admirably
>> > thorough explanation of the theory at
>> > 
>> http://www.medieval.org/emfaq/harmony/hex.html,
>>  
>> but how would one put it
>> > into practice?
>> >
>> > Much thanks for any suggestions,
>> > Caroline
>> >
>> > P.S.  Who's going to Vancouver next week?  I'm arriving at 10:58pm on
>> > Saturday evening--anyone want to share a cab to Green College?
>>
>>
>>To get on or off this list see list information at
>>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

Nancy Carlin Associates
P.O. Box 6499
Concord, CA 94524  USA
phone 925/686-5800 fax 925/680-2582
web site - www.nancycarlinassociates.com
Administrator THE LUTE SOCIETY OF AMERICA
web site - http://LuteSocietyofAmerica.org

--

[LUTE] Re: Mason Williams - no attachments

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

- Original Message -
From: Wayne Cripps <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Monday, July 30, 2007 5:51 pm
Subject: [LUTE] Mason Williams - no attachments

> > 
> > It seems that there is a block on attaching files, either that 
> or my
> > computer is having 'one of those days'.
> > 
> 
> There is indeed a block against attachments.  Too many people
> were attaching viruses to their email a while  back.
> 


..Or too many viruses were attaching themselves to people's e-mails.

Eugene



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[LUTE] Mason Williams - no attachments

[Wayne Cripps]

> 
> It seems that there is a block on attaching files, either that or my
> computer is having 'one of those days'.
> 

There is indeed a block against attachments.  Too many people
were attaching viruses to their email a while  back.

Wayne

>  
> 
> Neil Woodhouse
> 
> 



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[LUTE] Re: Mason Williams

[Eugene C. Braig IV]

Indeed, so I would suggest 1) you enjoy personally and tell the list about 
how it all worked out or 2) ask Mr. Williams and his publisher for written 
permission to spread it 'round (unfortunately, the latter seems a little 
unlikely, but why not try if you'd like to?).  On the day job, I'm fairly 
proficient at scoring use of copyrighted print material for educational 
purposes.  I do have a couple questions...and they're only semi-facetious: 
Thumb under or out?  Technically, wouldn't your rendition now be 
"Renaissance Gas"?

Best,
Eugene


At 04:26 PM 7/30/2007, Allan Alexander wrote:
>Hi Neal,
>
>Unless you own the copyright, that would be illegal. You cannot
>distribute someone elses copywritten work.
>
>Allan
>
> > Greetings,
> >
> >
> >
> > It seems that there is a block on attaching files, either that or
> > my
> > computer is having 'one of those days'.
> >
> >
> >
> > I have recently transcribed (painstakingly I might add) Mason
> > Williams piece
> > ' Classical Gas' to 6 course lute. It is in .pdf fom. If anyone
> > would like a
> > copy of this please e-mail me and I will gladly send it.
> >
> >
> >
> > Regards
> >
> >
> >
> > Neil Woodhouse



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[LUTE] Re: Mason Williams

[Allan Alexander]

Hi Neal, 

Unless you own the copyright, that would be illegal. You cannot 
distribute someone elses copywritten work. 

Allan

> Greetings,
> 
>  
> 
> It seems that there is a block on attaching files, either that or
> my
> computer is having 'one of those days'.
> 
>  
> 
> I have recently transcribed (painstakingly I might add) Mason
> Williams piece
> ' Classical Gas' to 6 course lute. It is in .pdf fom. If anyone
> would like a
> copy of this please e-mail me and I will gladly send it.
> 
>  
> 
> Regards
> 
>  
> 
> Neil Woodhouse
> 
> 
> --
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html



www.fluteandguitar.com
www.guitarandlute.com

[LUTE] Re: Early Baroque basso continuo rules

[Rob]

Apart from the unnecessary personal attacks by Alfonso, I find this whole
discussion quite humorous, with occasional tangential leaps into unrelated
areas, inconsistencies and general ill-thought-out rants by most of the
contributors (self included). So if we can focus a little better...I'll try
to remind myself and others what on earth we are talking about, or at least
what I believe we might be talking about ;-)

Basso continuo practice and ideology are not always one and the same, they
both changed over time, with occasional parallel paths of transcendent
oneness (much like our discussion!). That there were players who ignored or
deliberately broke rules is clear and provable. That there were players who
followed the rules religiously might also have been true (more difficult to
prove, but likely). That the more anarchic players are not likely to have
been befriended by Bach ('keyboard Hussars!' he called them) is also true,
although he himself stretched the practice into uncomfortable areas (tut
tut!). 

I welcome Alfonso's contribution of the rules, but do not think they help
complete beginners. On the contrary, I much prefer students to feel their
way into the practice, learning what works and what doesn't, so that LATER,
when they do study the rules (which they should) they can assess for
themselves whether to follow them or not. This would help preserve the
individuality of their contribution. Many lute students are frightened off
from studying continuo because of the number of rules they encounter early
on. I want students to realize that they can make a huge contribution by
initially only playing the bass line. There is also the practice of
improvisation above the bass by treble lutes - a list of rules for that
practice would be very scary; best just jump in and use your ears. 

I am content that there is as much difference of opinion now as there was in
the 17th and 18th centuries. Long may that be the case.

For what it's worth (not much, admittedly) I have a very good grasp of
harmony, counterpoint and figured bass, and period styles. I used to teach
it as Fretboard Harmony at the Royal Scottish Academy Of Music. I also play
jazz with a Big Band, and despite noting the similarities between rhythm and
soloing with a BB and playing continuo in a baroque group, have never got
them mixed up. 

Hmm...

Rob

www.rmguitar.info
 
 

-Original Message-
From: Howard Posner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 30 July 2007 18:44
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Early Baroque basso continuo rules

On Monday, Jul 30, 2007, at 10:20 America/Los_Angeles, David Rastall 
wrote:

> I don't think that orchestra members or
> choristers were encouraged to improvise their parts.

True generally, but of course, if we're talking about the continuo 
players in the orchestra, they had no choice but to improvise.  I just 
bring this up in case it's not clear that the subject is broadening 
beyond the subject line.



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[LUTE] Re: Early Baroque basso continuo rules

[David Rastall]

On Jul 30, 2007, at 1:43 PM, Howard Posner wrote:

> ...I just
> bring this up in case it's not clear that the subject is broadening
> beyond the subject line.

Ah, how very Enlightened of you to point that out.  ;-)  God forbid  
that the subject should broaden.  Very bad taste indeed!

Let us continue to smile the Smile of Reason and confine ourselves to  
the subject at hand.  Continuo.  Albeit there was much opportunity  
for improvisation on the part of the continuo player, there were in  
fact many "rules" governing continuo, and I don't think it  
unreasonable to assume that, improvisation notwithstanding, those  
were the rules they played by.

David Rastall
[EMAIL PROTECTED]




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[LUTE] Re: Early Baroque basso continuo rules

[David Rastall]

On Jul 30, 2007, at 4:02 AM, Rob wrote:

> Are you saying the Baroque did not value individualistic music  
> making?! It
> seems to me to be one of the periods most interested in  
> improvisation and
> the glorification of the performer.

The performer in many cases being also the composer, or some  
celebrated soloist.  I don't think that orchestra members or  
choristers were encouraged to improvise their parts.  There was a  
time and place in the music for improvisation, and appropriate venues  
for the glorification of the performer.  But that doesn't mean that  
Bach, Handel, Telemann etc. would have said, "Oh, go ahead and play  
my music any old way you want to!  Make up your own rules if you want  
to!"  I may be totally wrong here, but I can't imagine any of the old  
masters saying that.

Wouldn't it have been considered "bad form" in the pre-rococo / pre- 
galant music world to ignore the rules, and go your own way?

David R



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[LUTE] Re: Early Baroque basso continuo rules

[Howard Posner]

On Monday, Jul 30, 2007, at 07:41 America/Los_Angeles, 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Purely anecdotal evidence to the contrary: All of the
> upper-end stores that sell CDs in my area have removed
> their "Early Music" catagories.  At the same time
> their "Classical Music" sections have shrunk
> dramatically.
>
> I'm not so terribly far from Chicago, a very large
> city, but even there I've had quite a bit of
> difficulty finding very many Early Music recordings,
> whether classed along with other EM CDs or mixed in
> with the classical albums in general.

I think it's a mistake to confuse the state of early music, which is 
good, with the state of classical music CD retailing, which is going 
through upheaval.  The record store as we know it is dying: the large 
store that keeps a big, varied inventory is now a rarity.  The 
conventional wisdom is that the internet is wiping it out, just as it 
is wiping out a lot of other types of retailing.  It used to be that I 
could run over to Tower Records and find what I wanted (or needed for 
research) on the spur of the moment.  Now I have to look it up and 
mail-order it.  This really doesn't tell you much about what is being 
recorded or what people are listening to.



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[LUTE] Re: Early Baroque basso continuo rules

[Ray Brohinsky]

On 7/30/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Purely anecdotal evidence to the contrary: All of the
> upper-end stores that sell CDs in my area have removed
> their "Early Music" catagories.  At the same time
> their "Classical Music" sections have shrunk
> dramatically.
>


This is endemic and not surprising. On-the-ground stores have largely
been reduced to selling "top-40" with everything else an afterthought.
I'm surprised it took as long as it did.

People who want non-immediately-popular music buy online, and have for
a while. The purveyors of CD's don't want to waste the money to keep
them on display floor space in rented shops, they barely are willing
to keep them compacted on shelves in warehouses.

I've wondered for a while why some enterprising young person doesn't
contact EMI and Sony and other such music industry corporations and
offer something along the following lines:

Give me a complete listing (machine-readable or hard copy) of your
classical (EM) catalog. Let me advertise them online.

When I get five hits for any piece, I will buy from you a "gold disk
package" with an ISO of the CD and graphics for the disk box and
label. The cost will be $50 for this package, and I will use it to
fill the order. I will sell the disks for $17/each, shipping extra.
Any further orders will be made-up and shipped for that price
(shipping extra) and I will send $5 to you for each disk.

If I get a "I want it now!" order for a disk, I will buy the "gold
disk" package for $50 from you, and sell the disk for $30, shipping
extra. Additional copies of this disk will be sold for $27, $24, $20,
and $17 as they are ordered, or $17 each if enough orders are received
in one cycle to fill the total of 5, and for each disk sold after the
first, I will send you $5.

After 5 disks from any "Gold disk" package have been sold, I will
retain the right to reprice that CD at whatever price I see fit, so
long as I continue to send you $5 for each disk I sell. I will pay the
costs of making disks, packaging and shipping (out of additional
shipping cost levvied on the purchaser) and archiving "gold disk"
packages. Archiving will be on a secure system, isolated from the
internet, secured with multiple physical keys as well as physical site
arrangements. I may duplicate "gold disk" sets for the purposes of
ensuring their availability (including backups, kept securely
off-site).

I will provide you with monthly and annual reports of business,
showing how many disks are sold for what price, my operating expenses,
how much profit remains, and how much is sent to you. (and so on and
so forth into laweristic drivel.)

Wouldn't something like that be a boon to the EM world? Admittedly,
$30 is a lot to have to pay for a disk, so it's worth the trouble to
be patient. But if you gotta have it, it's not that bad, especially if
what you're after has been mouldering in the archives forever.
$10/disk for making the Gold Disk package and sending it is not that
bad (even though it may require some footwork at the corporation's
vaults), and $5/disk for doing nothing is criminal, but a good deal
considering that they are currently getting nothing to archive it all.

ray
(When I first sent this, it went only to Chris, because of how Gmail
responds to the addressing of list mail. What I left out was this
thought:

Maybe some aspiring young musician who has some time on their hands
and wants some extra money could put this into practice?)



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[LUTE] Re: Early Baroque basso continuo rules

[David Rastall]

On Jul 30, 2007, at 3:22 AM, Rob wrote:

> Our lute world is very different
> from the 17th century - no online list for debate (if we glorify it  
> as such
> for a moment),

But still plenty of communication between musicians.

> much more regional variation in playing styles, more variety
> of continuo instruments,

Is that so very different from today?

> people creating their own rules,

There's a big difference between making up your own rules, and  
learning the existing rules in order to know how to break them  
effectively.

> and (to borrow a
> phrase) the performer was king, not the academic.

Among performers the performer was king.  Among academics the  
academic was king.  Among composers the composer was king.  Not so  
very different than our world today it seems to me.

> Our god is too small.

Amen.

> The 'rules' are interesting, but clearly were not adhered to  
> universally.

Come on, Rob:  even if you create your own rules, there's such a  
thing as playing a wrong chord.

DR



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[LUTE] Re: Paul O'Dette goes baroque

[Stephan Olbertz]

Am 29 Jul 2007 um 8:49 hat Daniel Shoskes geschrieben:

> I know it's been discussed in this group before, but the lute suites  
> were written for the keyboard lautenwerk with no consideration for  
> technical or sonic issues on the lute. 

If you say so :-)

> Therefore I don't see any  
> advantage (technical, musical or historical) to playing them in the  
> "original" keys.  

995 is quite playable in g-minor, some people don't see any advantage in 
transposing the 
suite. I just find it interesting what POD does or thinks, or any other 
knowledgable musician 
or musicologist.

Regards,

Stephan 

Since the baroque lute has an equal tempered  
> tuning, you don't even get the key "feel" that one might compared to  
> a meantone tuned keyboard (also discussed before in this group).  
> Honestly, these bach lute suites have been recorded to death (lute,  
> guitar and cello), and I would so rather see new recordings of lesser  
> known baroque works (still a lot of Weiss out there which is not  
> recorded or poorly recorded). Incidentally, all of POD's Bach  
> performances and recordings are his own arrangements.
> 
> BTW, Paul's CD is also available on iTunes:
>  id=256989709&s=143441>
> 
> DS
> 
> On Jul 29, 2007, at 7:10 AM, Stephan Olbertz wrote:
> 
> > Interesting that he has transposed the pieces and doesn't bother to  
> > play what is held to be
> > original. A musicologist friend of mine, Ingo Negwer, has argued  
> > that BWV 995 is written in g-
> > minor only because it was comfortable to simply change the clef of  
> > the c-minor cello version
> > (1011) from bass to tenor cleff. There would be enough  
> > transcription work left, and a final
> > transposition to a-minor.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Stephan
> >
> > Am 29 Jul 2007 um 1:23 hat hera caius geschrieben:
> 
> 
> 
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[LUTE] Re: Early Baroque basso continuo rules

[chriswilke]

David,

--- LGS-Europe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> I see more and more historical awareness in the
> non-early music players 
> around me, so HIP is becoming part of main stream
> classical music. And I see 
> a more liberal attitude towards HIP-ness in the
> early music players around 
> me, so they are merging with main stream classical
> music.

Purely anecdotal evidence to the contrary: All of the
upper-end stores that sell CDs in my area have removed
their "Early Music" catagories.  At the same time
their "Classical Music" sections have shrunk
dramatically.

I'm not so terribly far from Chicago, a very large
city, but even there I've had quite a bit of
difficulty finding very many Early Music recordings,
whether classed along with other EM CDs or mixed in
with the classical albums in general.

Maybe Early Music downloads have grown?  I haven't
heard of much.  So far as I've heard, the only "early
music" artist that's doing very well is Sting.

Chris


   

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[LUTE] Re: Early Baroque basso continuo rules

[chriswilke]

David,

--- LGS-Europe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> There's no danger in knowledge, it will only
> increase our understanding and 
> appreciation of art.
> 

I agree completely, however we can't remove the
variable of the student him/herself from the equation.
Any student - and this applies to all of us in EM,
even the most advanced - must be READY to interpret
and use that knowledge appropriately.  For continuo,
this means that maybe it is best for the student to
spend some time hashing it out "naturally" on his or
her own before they worry too terribly much about
rules and more obscure stylistic matters.  Remember,
"When the student is ready, the master will appear."

An anecdote:  As a young student in the 1980's
interested in modern music, I read a short description
of Schoenberg's music.  I was so intrigued!  This wild
"new" twelve-tone music seemed to offer endless
possibilities for new music and so different from the
theory of Bach and Beethoven I was learning.  Right
away, I started to compose experimental piano pieces
using twelve tones.  I felt so cool.  Why wasn't
_everyone_ using this system???

I went to the library and checked out an LP of
"Pierrot Lunaire." (Later I found out that this is not
actually a dodecaphonic piece.)  I was never more
disappointed with a piece of music in my life!!!  This
didn't sound _anything_ like what I'd imagined from
the article.  It took years before I had enough
knowledge and experience with other types of music
before I began to appreciate what Schoenberg was doing
in that piece.

I believe we'd all be surprised too, if we heard
Monteverdi improvising continuo today.  Too bad he
never had a recording contract.


> On a different, but related note, I studied a bit of
> traditional Japanese 
> music under a Japanese teacher in Japan. This is a
> living and constantly 
> changing tradition, so all my questions about
> performance practice, or 
> historical matters, were met with blank looks: what
> was I talking about?

I have a similar attitude towards improvisation in
general.  (Continuo is really a type of improvisation
afterall.)  I spend some time working on improv with
all my students, regardless of level, style or
instrument.  At first my instructions are is very,
very basic. I may say something like "Just mess around
with these three notes and come up with something you
like."  I don't even consider introducing abstract
concepts of a theoretical nature at this point.

Am I implying to the student "whatever you come up
with is good if you like it"?  No way!  For me the
ideal progression goes something like this: 1) random
searching in which the rules don't apply 2) study and
use of rules of harmony and style (historical and
modern) 3) effortless mastery in which the "rules"
have been absorbed so completely that they don't
really apply anymore.  I'd place myself somewhere
between steps two and three.  I've felt those moments
of step three in really good sessions.

When it comes to style, however, the olden ones
usually had only one style to learn: the modern style.

> Early western music is a dead tradition,
> so we have to look for 
> the teachings of dead fellow musicians. I see no
> harm in that, granted we 
> value their remarks as we would those of musicians
> stil alive: some can be 
> trusted, some are highly prized and others are
> discarded.
> 

Yes, indeed.  Everything we do is pastiche!

Chris - Not implying we shouldn't try!


   

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[LUTE] Re: Early Baroque basso continuo rules

[LGS-Europe]

Rob

The attitude to discard
> historical evidence, little as we have, to educate one's own stylistic
> aesthetic judgement is what surprises me in more and more players of
> historical instruments. Your comments were proof of that point in my eyes
> .<<<
>
> But I never said 'discard it'. I said look at it later, not before you
> start.

'Before, during or after', I wrote, so we don't disagree. However, that was 
not my argument, but for the sake of your argument, and this is what it 
seems to coming down to, I quote from your initial mail relating how you 
started continuo playing:

>>
I was free to contribute
what I felt was appropriate. I responded to the situation as a practicing
musician, letting me ears and hands find their way.
<<

This is similar to most of our beginnings in continuo, as it was mine. The 
problem with that is that our ears and hands have heard and played many 
styles of music different from the one we are playing at our first continuo 
gig. Without guidance they will be tempted to fall back on familiar 
patterns: harmonies from Bach, arpeggios from Carulli and melodic lines from 
blues, to name but a few possibilities from the personal history of the 
average lute player. Then it's good to have some guidance in what would have 
likely been deemed appropriate in the style of the music we are playing. 
Alfonso's paper, Freiberg's collection of treatises or Arnold's hefty 
volumes, to name but a few of the sources recently quoted on this list, are 
a good help in this respect, whether it be before, during or after the first 
rehearsal, but preferably before the first concert. Of course, a 
knowledgeable as well as friendly fellow musician will equally well do, but 
not all of us are in the fortunate position to have one of those around. 
There's no danger in knowledge, it will only increase our understanding and 
appreciation of art.

On a different, but related note, I studied a bit of traditional Japanese 
music under a Japanese teacher in Japan. This is a living and constantly 
changing tradition, so all my questions about performance practice, or 
historical matters, were met with blank looks: what was I talking about? The 
musicians had no answers for me, perhaps the musicologists had, but they 
were in another field altogether. Still, make no mistake, all my playing was 
kept strictly within stylistic boundaries by the teacher and by my fellow 
musicians. Early western music is a dead tradition, so we have to look for 
the teachings of dead fellow musicians. I see no harm in that, granted we 
value their remarks as we would those of musicians stil alive: some can be 
trusted, some are highly prized and others are discarded.

David - struggling with a dtp-program (Scribus) so happy with any 
interruption 




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[LUTE] Re: Early Baroque basso continuo rules

[Rob]

I agree with everything you say below, Chris.

Rob

www.rmguitar.info
 
 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 29 July 2007 14:58
To: Alfonso Marin; lutelist Net
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Early Baroque basso continuo rules

Alfonso,


  Yes, but who was it that said something like
"Learning continuo 'rules' is like learning to swim on
dry land."?   Certainly one should take the time to
learn the rules and look at treatises, but ultimatly
figured bass has to be something intuitive gained by
forcing yourself to go beyond your comfort level.  The
sources themseves tell us that for every "rule" there
are ten exceptions.

 I actually have a recording of my very first
continuo gig ever.  Its just me and a recorder player.
 I was on theorbo, having played the instrument for a
month - actually a little under a month.  Learning
continuo on a new instrument while being so exposed
was scary, but I had no choice but to pretend I knew
what I was doing.  To my surprise, I found that - at
least on a very basic level - I DID know what I was
doing!  (The recorder player never complained,
either.)  I find it interesting to listen to that
recording every now and then.  It could certainly have
been a more inventive realization and I can hear now
that there were some mistakes, but I'm amazed at how
few harmonic and voice leading problems came from just
diving in and going with it.

 Today, its easy to fall into the trap of thinking
there's a narrow range of acceptable continuo
practice.  In reality, a bass can be realized along a
continuum (no pun intended) of ways from very basic to
very refined.  That's the beauty of this form of
notation, though.  This kind of open-ended approach
was expected by our composers or they would have just
written a part for the chord instruments.


Chris


--- Alfonso Marin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Dear Rob,
> 
> I earn my life playing continuo. I have also learned
> a lot and gained  
> a lot of experience from actual playing but my
> theoretical background  
> has help me immensely to know what you are expected
> to do as, in this  
> case, an early baroque continuo player.
> I know people like you who have learned continuo
> only by intuition  
> and fact can play continuo well but the play wrong
> harmonies all the  
> time because they figure their basses without
> knowing the practice of  
> the time.
> Early XVII century harmony is quite simple but you
> have to know some  
> basic rules taken from the treatises of the time so
> that you can  
> realize your basses according to their aesthetical
> view of  
> accompaniment.
> It is amazing to me that we can still listen to
> performances and  
> recordings of Caccini or Monteverdi were they use 
> sort of XVIII  
> century harmonic continuo realization. This is not
> only a theoretical  
> issue but aesthetical one since the musical result
> is completely  
> different.
> The majority of basses from the Early Baroque era
> are unfigured. If  
> you don't learn to figure your basses according to
> the PRACTICE of  
> the time, you will always rely on outdated and very
> incorrect written  
> continuo realizations from modern editions.
> We need a theoretical historically informed
> framework that translates  
> into aesthetically appropriate accompaniments that
> will render the  
> music closer to the original intentions of the
> composers. Otherwise,  
> we can as well play Jazz or new age chords into our
> Caccini  
> accompaniments and still consider them correct.
> 
> Greetings,
> 
> Alfonso
> 
> P.S. These "rules" are not only for keyboard players
> since they are  
> taken from continuo treatises of a time were the
> theorbo was the most  
> important continuo instrument.
> P.S.2 These rules are mentioned in ALL early
> continuo treatises of  
> the time therefore they are not the opinion of a
> certain scholar or  
> composer but a 100 per cent reliable account of the
> practice of the  
> time.
> 
> 
> On 29-jul-2007, at 9:53, Rob wrote:
> 
> > I'm tempted to say that is a neat summation of
> everything that  
> > annoys me
> > about an academic, proscriptive approach to
> learning figured bass.  
> > Clearly
> > keyboard-based, it bears little relation to
> real-world continuo  
> > playing by
> > lute/theorbo/guitar players. I'm SO glad my
> initial encounter with  
> > playing
> > figured bass in concert situations was not
> prefaced by classes in  
> > correct
> > procedure. So how did I learn? Three months after
> buying my first  
> > lute - an
> > archlute - I was on tour with the Scottish Early
> Music Consort playing
> > Monteverdi. I had no instruction on what to do, no
> lists of what I  
> > could or
> > couldn't do - it was really scary! But, crucially,
> I was free to  
> > contribute
> > what I felt was appropriate. I responded to the
> situation as a  
> > practicing
> > musician, letting me ears and hands find their
> way. I made MANY  
> > mistakes,
> > bu

[LUTE] Re: tab search - 2 pieces by Negri.

[hera caius]

--0-395675017-1185793856=:60722
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

All the pieces in Cesare Negri' dance tutor are very beautifull but 
unfortunately very short...and if someone wants to use pieces like those in a 
lute recital I think is very important to find a way of interpretation. For 
example I think it's interesting to group a few pieces maybe which sound's 
alike or even diferent as character, and make some suites with pieces that are 
repeting or something like this.
  Another thing is to use a melodic instrument who can play the melody and you 
can repeat the piece using ornaments. Even more...you can split the original 
tablature in voices and use an instrumental group with the lute playing all the 
voices.(or lute quartet).I think if someone have imagination he can do very 
interesting things with very small pieces...or make gold from ordinary stones...

Note: forwarded message attached.

   
-
Building a website is a piece of cake. 
Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online.
--0-395675017-1185793856=:60722
Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

All the pieces in Cesare Negri' dance tutor are very beautifull but 
unfortunately very short...and if someone wants to use pieces like 
those in a lute recital I think is very important to find a way of 
interpretation. For example I think it's interesting to group a few pieces 
maybe which sound's alike or even diferent as character, and make some suites 
with pieces that are repeting or something like this.  Another thing 
is to use a melodic instrument who can play the melody and you can repeat the 
piece using ornaments. Even more...you can split the original tablature in 
voices and use an instrumental group with the lute playing all the voices.(or 
lute quartet).I think if someone have imagination he can do very interesting 
things with very small pieces...or make gold from ordinary 
stones...Note: forwarded message attached. 
  Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small 
Business gives you http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=48251/*http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting/?p=PASSPORTPLUS";>all
 the tools to get online.
--0-395675017-1185793856=:60722--
--

To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Early Baroque basso continuo rules

[Roman Turovsky]

From: "Rob" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>A few comments, David, if that is ok?
>
> 1. I probably am reading you incorrectly, if so, please forgive me. But 
> the
> following comment seems a bit odd to me:
>
 we see more and
> more players of historcial instruments indulging in rather personally
> coloured perfomances that would formerly only be heard by so called 
> romantic
>
> soloists.<<<
>
> How do you know? I mean really, really know for sure, that such things 
> (and
> I'm not sure what things you are referring to) didn't happen? If you
> conclude that what happened in the baroque period was only what was 
> written
> down, either in musical form or textual commentary, then you have limited
> the debate considerably. Any firm evidence?
It is a two-fold issue. We have to contend with with a dilemma of choosing 
an object of Platonic Imitation (apologies to Doug Smith for the restoration 
of the correct meaning of it). It is extremely difficult to model one's 
behavior in absence of the model, dead for 300+ years. It is a bit easier to 
reconstruct an abstract average mediocrity that always plays by the rules, 
than a Great Man/Musician that wouldn't necessarily play by the rules.
The Rooley Principle (according to which any self-expression is 
inappropriate in Early Music) is the way of least resistance, and the 
natural consequence of the the first choice.
RT



>
> 2. >>> The flak, is it called flames here?, Alfonso had to endure for his
> sharing with us a few simple guidelines to improve our stylistic taste
> before, during or after, we dive into the practice of continuo playing is
> another example. It shows that some value their own uneducated judgement
> above period evidence that might educate us.<<<
>
> a) Are you referring to me as being uneducated? Please answer this one.
>
> b) Poor Alfonso had to endure no personal comments from me like the ones 
> he
> fired at me. Apparently (although he has never heard me play continuo) he
> has judged that I play 'all the wrong chords', even 'new age harmonies'.
> Having never heard him play, IU have no opinion whatsoever about his
> playing.
>
> 3. >>> That too, is an attitude unheard of in early music circles of old,
> but very familiar to the individualistic school of music making, loosely
> reffered to as romantic or even main stream.<<<
>
> Are you saying the Baroque did not value individualistic music making?! It
> seems to me to be one of the periods most interested in improvisation and
> the glorification of the performer.
>
> Rob
>
> www.rmguitar.info
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: LGS-Europe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: 30 July 2007 08:21
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lutelist Net
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Early Baroque basso continuo rules
>
> Chris
>
>>> I don't know, I think we are becoming part of main
>>> stream classical music, I
>>> suppose. Seems like a healthy move to me.
>>>
>>
>> I'm not sure I agree with either point.
>
> I see more and more historical awareness in the non-early music players
> around me, so HIP is becoming part of main stream classical music. And I 
> see
>
> a more liberal attitude towards HIP-ness in the early music players around
> me, so they are merging with main stream classical music. I'm as much for
> historical awareness in study as I am for individual musicality in
> performance.  I wouldn't argue that early music players of old were only
> interested in HIP-ness and main stream classical musicians only in
> individual musicality, but my perception is that they had a different 
> focus
> in their approach to music. It seems to me there's less and less 
> difference
> in the players I meet or listen to, or more and more divergence in both
> camps, which comes down to the same thing. As extreme examples I could 
> give
> you an orchestra we have here in Holland, made up of modern players on
> modern instruments but dedicated to playing early music, mostly 17th and
> 18th century, in an historically informed way. They are highly regared. 
> And
> yes, Rob, they employ a theorbo player. On the other hand we see more and
> more players of historcial instruments indulging in rather personally
> coloured perfomances that would formerly only be heard by so called 
> romantic
>
> soloists. Not to mention players on historical instruments that stopped
> experimenting like their teachers and refuse to go all the available
> historical way with their instruments or their performances for reasons 
> that
>
> come down to subjective aesthetic judgements, if not by fear of the 
> unknown,
>
> it's called practical reasons in defense, or downright laziness. String
> choice for lute players is a personal hobby horse I will refrain from
> dwelling upon in this forum at this point, but perhaps the public lie of
> what constitutes a historcial baroque trumpet will strike a more unbiased
> chord. The flak, is it called flames here?, Alfonso had to endure for his
> sharing with us a few simple guidelines to improve our 

[LUTE] Re: tab search - 2 pieces by Negri.

[John Scott]

Many thanks to all of you who responded to my appeal for help (and so
quickly!)

That facsimile Negri book is going to be a great resource, and I'm
particularly looking forward to getting to grips with the two pieces I
mentioned.

Finding this list is probably the 2nd-best thing that's happened to me
all year!
(The 1st-best was getting a lute!)

Thanks again,

John Scott



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[LUTE] Re: Early Baroque basso continuo rules

[Rob]

>>>The attitude to discard 
historical evidence, little as we have, to educate one's own stylistic 
aesthetic judgement is what surprises me in more and more players of 
historical instruments. Your comments were proof of that point in my eyes
.<<<

But I never said 'discard it'. I said look at it later, not before you
start. 

Rob





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[LUTE] Re: tab search - 2 pieces by Negri.

[Ed Durbrow]

On Jul 30, 2007, at 5:24 PM, John Scott wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I've been hunting (in vain) for the tab for two pieces by Cesare  
> Negri. The
> first is "Laura Gentile",

You don't mean Laura Suave, do you? In the translation it says "Laura  
Suave [Gentle Laura]"

I sent you a scan of So ben with my pencilled corrections to the  
corrupt tab.



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[LUTE] Re: tab search - 2 pieces by Negri.

[Arthur Ness]

Start here>

http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/musdiquery.html

Search using the term Negri.  Click on the
facsimile of the titlepage to start looking for the 
tablature.  The table
of contents in Negri (1602) is
on the last unnumbered page at the beginning.

Both pieces are listed with page number.  Click on "turn
to page" to get the beginning of the section on the
requested piece.

This is a famous collection with much worthy music.
That LOC site has lots of good stuff.

Also see my web page for more citations:
http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/id23.html

ajn
==
- Original Message - 
From: "John Scott" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 4:24 AM
Subject: [LUTE] tab search - 2 pieces by Negri.


> Hi,
>
> I've been hunting (in vain) for the tab for two pieces
> by Cesare Negri. The
> first is "Laura Gentile", and the second is "So ben mi
> ha buon tempo".
>
> I'd be really grateful if anyone could point me in the
> right direction!
>
> Many thanks.
>
> John Scott
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>

[LUTE] Re: Early Baroque basso continuo rules

[LGS-Europe]

Dear Rob

> 1. I probably am reading you incorrectly

I must say I made some grammatical errors in that posting, confused myself 
retyping and rereading, so thank you for your patience.

 we see more and
> more players of historcial instruments indulging in rather personally
> coloured perfomances that would formerly only be heard by so called 
> romantic
>
> soloists.<<<
>
> How do you know?

I am referring to glorious Bream and Segovia performances, to stay close to 
home, as romantic soloists. I love them, but that's not the point here. They 
are a different cattle of fish from say Gustav Leonhardt, whom I love 
equally much. I'm not questioning either's approach here, nor am I 
suggesting either is closer to a 17th or 18th century performer. I'm just 
observing my fellow musicians' changing approaches.

> 2. >>> The flak, is it called flames here?, Alfonso had to endure for his
..
> another example. It shows that some value their own uneducated judgement
> above period evidence that might educate us.<<<
>
> a) Are you referring to me as being uneducated? Please answer this one.

I wouldn't dare, and I think your track record proves otherwise anyway, so 
my personal opionion is of no importance here. The attitude to discard 
historical evidence, little as we have, to educate one's own stylistic 
aesthetic judgement is what surprises me in more and more players of 
historical instruments. Your comments were proof of that point in my eyes .

> 3. >>> That too, is an attitude unheard of in early music circles of old,
> but very familiar to the individualistic school of music making, loosely
> reffered to as romantic or even main stream.<<<
>
> Are you saying the Baroque did not value individualistic music making?! It
> seems to me to be one of the periods most interested in improvisation and
> the glorification of the performer.

Again, I am referring to the generation of early music players before us, 
the Gustavs Leonhardt's, and not to musicians living in the 17th or 18th 
century. So perhaps, referring to your first point, you were reading me 
incorrectly

Yours

David - impressed by Barenboim's Beethoven masterclass on tv yesterday, and 
now listening to Leonhardt playing Bach. Both are great musicians in my 
eyes.



David van Ooijen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.davidvanooijen.nl
 




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[LUTE] tab search - 2 pieces by Negri.

[John Scott]

Hi,

I've been hunting (in vain) for the tab for two pieces by Cesare Negri. The
first is "Laura Gentile", and the second is "So ben mi ha buon tempo".

I'd be really grateful if anyone could point me in the right direction!

Many thanks.

John Scott



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Early Baroque basso continuo rules

[Alfonso Marin]

Dear and all,

I think that some of you insist on not understanding my point.
The rules I gave are just a very few basic guidelines that help us  
understand the harmonic language of the early XVII century continuo  
practice. They are very basic and not a whole manual that tells you  
how to play every note of your continuo realization. They have  
nothing to do with personal style; nowadays and in the XVII century.  
Two different players will play completely different realizations of  
the same piece even following these guidelines, according with their  
own taste. Diversity and personal style and taste makes continuo  
playing interesting and varied and should be encouraged. Some of you  
are assuming that if you follow the practice of the time, all  
renditions will sound the same and there would be no chance to hear  
personal styles and diversity. If you examine accompaniments of  
romantic songs for voice and piano from different  composers, you  
realize that they are very much different in style from each other  
but they all share the basic harmonic framework and stylistic taste  
of the time. That is what I am talking about.
Abut the Caccini example on you tube. He would accompany himself in  
his own personal style following the conventions of the time and his  
own personal taste. I would myself still do different things than him  
but what I won't do is to employ a 2nd inversion of a seventh chord  
(2,4,6 in cyphers) as you often hear because this chord if completely  
out of the style and harmonic understanding of the musicians of the  
early XVII century. I just would try to basically play harmonies that  
would be universally appropriate at the time. This is what these  
rules tell you based on the evidence of ALL treatises of the time.  
They don't tell you how to arpeggiate, how to embellish, how to play  
diminutions, your dynamics, etc.  Of course, you can play your own  
accompaniment as you want. You can ignore these guidelines and play  
romantic or new edge harmonies, accompany yourself with a sitar or  
ukelele or sythetiser and there would not be anythig wrong with it if  
that makes you and others happy. If you, on the contrary, strive to  
getting closer to the original intentions of the composers and the  
style and aesthetics of the time. then I encourage you to study them.
Some of you speak as if I would had published a 500 page through-bass  
bible called "The only truth about early continuo practice in the  
XVII century" that tell you how to play every single note. I cannot  
understand that some of you get so eagerly against a simple rule as  
to play a mayor third a the end of the piece, or use a first  
inversion chord at the III and XVII degree of the scale. If this  
harmful to your creativity? Then you have a problem.

Greetings,

Alfonso



On 30-jul-2007, at 9:22, Rob wrote:

> An interesting quotation, Howard. The main point is that we will  
> never know
> for sure how any particular player played continuo, and even if we  
> did, that
> doesn't mean we should do the same. Imagine if Caccini himself  
> uploaded a
> video to YouTube, accompanying his own singing of 'Amarilli' on  
> theorbo. It
> would be of great interest, of course, but it doesn't mean we  
> should all
> start playing note-for-note what he played (many would, of course).  
> But that
> is not what continuo playing is all about. Our lute world is very  
> different
> from the 17th century - no online list for debate (if we glorify it  
> as such
> for a moment), much more regional variation in playing styles, more  
> variety
> of continuo instruments, people creating their own rules, and (to  
> borrow a
> phrase) the performer was king, not the academic. Our god is too  
> small. The
> 'rules' are interesting, but clearly were not adhered to  
> universally. Let's
> diversify!
>
> Rob
>
> www.rmguitar.info
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Howard Posner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: 29 July 2007 22:02
> To: lutelist Net
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Early Baroque basso continuo rules
>
> Alfonso, you seem to have jumped the fence and joined the Rob McKillop
> Subjectivity in Continuo Club.
> On Sunday, Jul 29, 2007, at 09:27 America/Los_Angeles, Alfonso Marin
> wrote:
>
>> Can you imagine a continuo realization of for ex. "Amarilli mia
>> bella" with parallels all over the place? I personally can't.
>
> Here's Rule 9 from Ludovico Viadana's Cento Concerti Ecclesiastici
> (1602) sometimes cited as the first publication to use basso continuo
> (as opposed to the basso seguente parts that Alfonso was describing):
>
> "The partitura [i.e. organ part] is never under any obligation to  
> avoid
> two fifths or octaves, but those parts which are sung by the voices
> are."
>
> Sorry, I can't find the original Italian.  The translation is  from
> F.T. Arnold's "the Art of Accompaniment from a Thorough-Bass."
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.

[LUTE] Re: Early Baroque basso continuo rules

[Rob]

A few comments, David, if that is ok?

1. I probably am reading you incorrectly, if so, please forgive me. But the
following comment seems a bit odd to me:

>>> we see more and 
more players of historcial instruments indulging in rather personally 
coloured perfomances that would formerly only be heard by so called romantic

soloists.<<<

How do you know? I mean really, really know for sure, that such things (and
I'm not sure what things you are referring to) didn't happen? If you
conclude that what happened in the baroque period was only what was written
down, either in musical form or textual commentary, then you have limited
the debate considerably. Any firm evidence?

2. >>> The flak, is it called flames here?, Alfonso had to endure for his 
sharing with us a few simple guidelines to improve our stylistic taste 
before, during or after, we dive into the practice of continuo playing is 
another example. It shows that some value their own uneducated judgement 
above period evidence that might educate us.<<<

a) Are you referring to me as being uneducated? Please answer this one. 

b) Poor Alfonso had to endure no personal comments from me like the ones he
fired at me. Apparently (although he has never heard me play continuo) he
has judged that I play 'all the wrong chords', even 'new age harmonies'.
Having never heard him play, IU have no opinion whatsoever about his
playing.

3. >>> That too, is an attitude unheard of in early music circles of old,
but very familiar to the individualistic school of music making, loosely
reffered to as romantic or even main stream.<<<

Are you saying the Baroque did not value individualistic music making?! It
seems to me to be one of the periods most interested in improvisation and
the glorification of the performer. 

Rob

www.rmguitar.info
 
 

-Original Message-
From: LGS-Europe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 30 July 2007 08:21
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lutelist Net
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Early Baroque basso continuo rules

Chris

>> I don't know, I think we are becoming part of main
>> stream classical music, I
>> suppose. Seems like a healthy move to me.
>>
>
> I'm not sure I agree with either point.

I see more and more historical awareness in the non-early music players 
around me, so HIP is becoming part of main stream classical music. And I see

a more liberal attitude towards HIP-ness in the early music players around 
me, so they are merging with main stream classical music. I'm as much for 
historical awareness in study as I am for individual musicality in 
performance.  I wouldn't argue that early music players of old were only 
interested in HIP-ness and main stream classical musicians only in 
individual musicality, but my perception is that they had a different focus 
in their approach to music. It seems to me there's less and less difference 
in the players I meet or listen to, or more and more divergence in both 
camps, which comes down to the same thing. As extreme examples I could give 
you an orchestra we have here in Holland, made up of modern players on 
modern instruments but dedicated to playing early music, mostly 17th and 
18th century, in an historically informed way. They are highly regared. And 
yes, Rob, they employ a theorbo player. On the other hand we see more and 
more players of historcial instruments indulging in rather personally 
coloured perfomances that would formerly only be heard by so called romantic

soloists. Not to mention players on historical instruments that stopped 
experimenting like their teachers and refuse to go all the available 
historical way with their instruments or their performances for reasons that

come down to subjective aesthetic judgements, if not by fear of the unknown,

it's called practical reasons in defense, or downright laziness. String 
choice for lute players is a personal hobby horse I will refrain from 
dwelling upon in this forum at this point, but perhaps the public lie of 
what constitutes a historcial baroque trumpet will strike a more unbiased 
chord. The flak, is it called flames here?, Alfonso had to endure for his 
sharing with us a few simple guidelines to improve our stylistic taste 
before, during or after, we dive into the practice of continuo playing is 
another example. It shows that some value their own uneducated judgement 
above period evidence that might educate us. That too, is an attitude 
unheard of in early music circles of old, but very familiar to the 
individualistic school of music making, loosely reffered to as romantic or 
even main stream.

That the line between musicians playing early music on historical 
instruments and main stream classical musicians is less and less clear is a 
healthy move in my opinion because it means a more general acceptance of 
each other's view points and giving more opportunity to learn from each 
other's fortes. When I play with a modern orchestra, they might adapt their 
bowing technique and vibrato for the baroque programme.


Davi

[LUTE] Re: Early Baroque basso continuo rules

[LGS-Europe]

Chris

>> I don't know, I think we are becoming part of main
>> stream classical music, I
>> suppose. Seems like a healthy move to me.
>>
>
> I'm not sure I agree with either point.

I see more and more historical awareness in the non-early music players 
around me, so HIP is becoming part of main stream classical music. And I see 
a more liberal attitude towards HIP-ness in the early music players around 
me, so they are merging with main stream classical music. I'm as much for 
historical awareness in study as I am for individual musicality in 
performance.  I wouldn't argue that early music players of old were only 
interested in HIP-ness and main stream classical musicians only in 
individual musicality, but my perception is that they had a different focus 
in their approach to music. It seems to me there's less and less difference 
in the players I meet or listen to, or more and more divergence in both 
camps, which comes down to the same thing. As extreme examples I could give 
you an orchestra we have here in Holland, made up of modern players on 
modern instruments but dedicated to playing early music, mostly 17th and 
18th century, in an historically informed way. They are highly regared. And 
yes, Rob, they employ a theorbo player. On the other hand we see more and 
more players of historcial instruments indulging in rather personally 
coloured perfomances that would formerly only be heard by so called romantic 
soloists. Not to mention players on historical instruments that stopped 
experimenting like their teachers and refuse to go all the available 
historical way with their instruments or their performances for reasons that 
come down to subjective aesthetic judgements, if not by fear of the unknown, 
it's called practical reasons in defense, or downright laziness. String 
choice for lute players is a personal hobby horse I will refrain from 
dwelling upon in this forum at this point, but perhaps the public lie of 
what constitutes a historcial baroque trumpet will strike a more unbiased 
chord. The flak, is it called flames here?, Alfonso had to endure for his 
sharing with us a few simple guidelines to improve our stylistic taste 
before, during or after, we dive into the practice of continuo playing is 
another example. It shows that some value their own uneducated judgement 
above period evidence that might educate us. That too, is an attitude 
unheard of in early music circles of old, but very familiar to the 
individualistic school of music making, loosely reffered to as romantic or 
even main stream.

That the line between musicians playing early music on historical 
instruments and main stream classical musicians is less and less clear is a 
healthy move in my opinion because it means a more general acceptance of 
each other's view points and giving more opportunity to learn from each 
other's fortes. When I play with a modern orchestra, they might adapt their 
bowing technique and vibrato for the baroque programme.


David - wine was fine



David van Ooijen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.davidvanooijen.nl
 




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[LUTE] Re: Early Baroque basso continuo rules

[Rob]

An interesting quotation, Howard. The main point is that we will never know
for sure how any particular player played continuo, and even if we did, that
doesn't mean we should do the same. Imagine if Caccini himself uploaded a
video to YouTube, accompanying his own singing of 'Amarilli' on theorbo. It
would be of great interest, of course, but it doesn't mean we should all
start playing note-for-note what he played (many would, of course). But that
is not what continuo playing is all about. Our lute world is very different
from the 17th century - no online list for debate (if we glorify it as such
for a moment), much more regional variation in playing styles, more variety
of continuo instruments, people creating their own rules, and (to borrow a
phrase) the performer was king, not the academic. Our god is too small. The
'rules' are interesting, but clearly were not adhered to universally. Let's
diversify!

Rob

www.rmguitar.info

 
 
-Original Message-
From: Howard Posner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 29 July 2007 22:02
To: lutelist Net
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Early Baroque basso continuo rules

Alfonso, you seem to have jumped the fence and joined the Rob McKillop 
Subjectivity in Continuo Club.
On Sunday, Jul 29, 2007, at 09:27 America/Los_Angeles, Alfonso Marin 
wrote:

> Can you imagine a continuo realization of for ex. "Amarilli mia
> bella" with parallels all over the place? I personally can't.

Here's Rule 9 from Ludovico Viadana's Cento Concerti Ecclesiastici 
(1602) sometimes cited as the first publication to use basso continuo 
(as opposed to the basso seguente parts that Alfonso was describing):

"The partitura [i.e. organ part] is never under any obligation to avoid 
two fifths or octaves, but those parts which are sung by the voices 
are."

Sorry, I can't find the original Italian.  The translation is  from 
F.T. Arnold's "the Art of Accompaniment from a Thorough-Bass."



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[LUTE] Re: Early Baroque basso continuo rules

[gary digman]

As I understood it, parallel 5ths and 8ves were thought to interrupt and/or
obscure the independence of the voices in polyphony and thus were advised
against. So, unless the continuo player was constructing a polyphony these
rules might be of lesser importance.

Gary

- Original Message - 
From: "Howard Posner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "lutelist Net" 
Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2007 2:02 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Early Baroque basso continuo rules


> Alfonso, you seem to have jumped the fence and joined the Rob McKillop
> Subjectivity in Continuo Club.
> On Sunday, Jul 29, 2007, at 09:27 America/Los_Angeles, Alfonso Marin
> wrote:
>
> > Can you imagine a continuo realization of for ex. "Amarilli mia
> > bella" with parallels all over the place? I personally can't.
>
> Here's Rule 9 from Ludovico Viadana's Cento Concerti Ecclesiastici
> (1602) sometimes cited as the first publication to use basso continuo
> (as opposed to the basso seguente parts that Alfonso was describing):
>
> "The partitura [i.e. organ part] is never under any obligation to avoid
> two fifths or octaves, but those parts which are sung by the voices
> are."
>
> Sorry, I can't find the original Italian.  The translation is  from
> F.T. Arnold's "the Art of Accompaniment from a Thorough-Bass."
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
>
>
> -- 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.463 / Virus Database: 269.10.22/923 - Release Date: 7/27/2007
6:01 PM
>
>