[LUTE] Re: New Xmas recording
Shoal? I mean they are the wales among the fishes, aren't they... B) Wales is that country to the west of England... Could it be a throng of theorboes? BTW When is Xmas? ...St Andrews Day? (30th November) Wasn't he crucified on an X cross? Scots will use any excuse for a 'wee swally' - Rrright through tae Hogmanay! Happy Christmas everyone, - or whatever you celebrate at this time of year. In my schooldays, X always meant the wrong answer Ron (UK) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Inaudibility
Or again, highly audible http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60iWlyQhlbgfeature=related -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Inaudibility
Look at what lute musicians have to put up with, not only inaudibility, but also invisibility! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JApax3L1mbofeature=related -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: New Xmas recording
Ron Fletcher [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: Shoal? I mean they are the wales among the fishes, aren't they... B) Wales is that country to the west of England... Dear me, two mistakes in one line. Can't have been my lucky day B) BTW When is Xmas? Christmas is on Dec 25th. Xmas is short for Christmas, as the Greek letter X is the first letter of the Greek word XPICTOC, i. e. Christ. Other possible abbreviations of that nomen sacrum, which you can find in texts of musical manuscripts, Orthodox icons, inscriptions, are XP, XC (usually with a short dash above). ...St Andrews Day? (30th November) Wasn't he crucified on an X cross? According to younger tradition, St Andrew was crucified on an x-shaped cross. Christ's cross, however, probably was of so-called Latin shape, like the letter T, as the Gospels mention the titulus. -- Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Inaudibility
G. Crona [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: Look at what lute musicians have to put up with, not only inaudibility, but also invisibility! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JApax3L1mbofeature=related Yes, it's sad. - Yet I could hear his strumming once or twice! -- Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar
Jon, I've made molds from pine lumber which works fine albeit harder to carve but the best is bass wood or boxwood. Basswood carves like butter and is easy to finish. As an avant-garde touch, you can carve the mould without facets so that the number of ribs can be varied or a multi-rib (39 or so) can be made if you're feeling particularly industrious. Best, Rob Dorsey http://RobDorsey.com -Original Message- From: Jon Murphy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 2:08 AM To: lute-builder Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar All, I think Rob has convinced me to can my skeletal form and make a solid one. I like the idea of sculpting the air within the body, and as a woodcarver I have all the tools and skills for shaping a solid form. The confidence I'll gain from having the form fully shaped will probably get me off my butt to make the body of my incipient lute. Dan's method is attractive in the apparent speed of the process, but I doubt I could accomplish it without being hands on at his workshop (which is tempting, but June is a long time away). Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar
Jon, I wish I had your carving skills - next time I make a lute I'd like to try a solid mould, but the thought of producing a complex shape with accurately curved lines and surfaces out of a lump of wood terrifies me! I'm sure with your experience of carving you will be able to work out how to go about it. I just about managed to carve the neck block with fairly accurate facets, following detailed instructions from David, and using the lines and facets from the completed mould to guide the carving. Unfortunately, as far as I can see, Lundberg's book does not even mention how the facets on the mould are cut. Rob, I hope you might be able to give me a clue, having learnt directly from him. I assume there is a systematic method, not relying just on a steady hand and a sharp eye? At heart, I guess I'm more of an engineer than a craftsman... Regards Din -Original Message- From: Rob Dorsey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 04 December 2007 14:22 To: 'Jon Murphy'; 'lute-builder' Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar Jon, I've made molds from pine lumber which works fine albeit harder to carve but the best is bass wood or boxwood. Basswood carves like butter and is easy to finish. As an avant-garde touch, you can carve the mould without facets so that the number of ribs can be varied or a multi-rib (39 or so) can be made if you're feeling particularly industrious. Best, Rob Dorsey http://RobDorsey.com -Original Message- From: Jon Murphy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 2:08 AM To: lute-builder Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar All, I think Rob has convinced me to can my skeletal form and make a solid one. I like the idea of sculpting the air within the body, and as a woodcarver I have all the tools and skills for shaping a solid form. The confidence I'll gain from having the form fully shaped will probably get me off my butt to make the body of my incipient lute. Dan's method is attractive in the apparent speed of the process, but I doubt I could accomplish it without being hands on at his workshop (which is tempting, but June is a long time away). Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar
Din, Here's how to do the magic. As you know, walking on water is actually quite easy if one knows where the rocks and stumps are. In this case they are composed of two or three card templates derived from a drawing. If you don't have plans with sectional views (vertical cuts through the body at precise points) then you will need construct them by drawing the body in side view and front view. Due to the shape of the body, a front view will be in perspective with the small block end in the foreground and the maximum girth making up the largest part of the drawing. On this view you have drawn the edges of the facets beginning at a point in front of the block and extending to the perimeter of the drawing. If you started your drawing with a smooth curve you may now connect the facet lines and, voila', the form of the ribs. From this perspective view so segmented you may now fashion templates which match the facets, i.e. an inside cutout with flats which correspond to the outline of the body at a certain point. One should be at the thickest point of the body shell - the faceted outline of your drawing - and another about half way, no precisely half way, between the drawing edge and the block. Now, as you carve the mould you can apply these templates to the shape. You will find that using a felt marker to draw the edges of the facets in as you go, understanding that you will most probably carve them away and need to redraw. Once you have the whole mold carved - and please, please do not get too anal here, this is really not rocket science. Believe it or not instrument build is a pretty forgiving medium - you cam saw off the block end creating a flat onto which you can screw the basswood block wood. Once you do, you can see how the facets on the block are merely extensions of the body facets. It is things like this which keep me carving solid moulds. Hope this helps, Rob Dorsey http://RobDorsey.com -Original Message- From: Din Ghani [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 11:26 AM To: 'Rob Dorsey'; 'Jon Murphy'; 'lute-builder' Subject: RE: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar Jon, I wish I had your carving skills - next time I make a lute I'd like to try a solid mould, but the thought of producing a complex shape with accurately curved lines and surfaces out of a lump of wood terrifies me! I'm sure with your experience of carving you will be able to work out how to go about it. I just about managed to carve the neck block with fairly accurate facets, following detailed instructions from David, and using the lines and facets from the completed mould to guide the carving. Unfortunately, as far as I can see, Lundberg's book does not even mention how the facets on the mould are cut. Rob, I hope you might be able to give me a clue, having learnt directly from him. I assume there is a systematic method, not relying just on a steady hand and a sharp eye? At heart, I guess I'm more of an engineer than a craftsman... Regards Din To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar
Rob, Many thanks for sharing that. It may not be rocket science, but it is precisely this sort of detailed know-how, often hard-won through long experience, when generously shared as you have just done, and as David van Edwards has done through his various courses, that makes all the difference to a diffident beginner like me. I now have a clearer picture of that part of the process, a picture that I know will become fully clear only when I actually get to the stage of trying to do it - which will be a while yet, as the vihuela I'm attempting next will require a somewhat simpler mould! Best regards Din -Original Message- From: Rob Dorsey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 04 December 2007 18:54 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Jon Murphy'; 'lute-builder' Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar Din, Here's how to do the magic. As you know, walking on water is actually quite easy if one knows where the rocks and stumps are. In this case they are composed of two or three card templates derived from a drawing. If you don't have plans with sectional views (vertical cuts through the body at precise points) then you will need construct them by drawing the body in side view and front view. Due to the shape of the body, a front view will be in perspective with the small block end in the foreground and the maximum girth making up the largest part of the drawing. On this view you have drawn the edges of the facets beginning at a point in front of the block and extending to the perimeter of the drawing. If you started your drawing with a smooth curve you may now connect the facet lines and, voila', the form of the ribs. From this perspective view so segmented you may now fashion templates which match the facets, i.e. an inside cutout with flats which correspond to the outline of the body at a certain point. One should be at the thickest point of the body shell - the faceted outline of your drawing - and another about half way, no precisely half way, between the drawing edge and the block. Now, as you carve the mould you can apply these templates to the shape. You will find that using a felt marker to draw the edges of the facets in as you go, understanding that you will most probably carve them away and need to redraw. Once you have the whole mold carved - and please, please do not get too anal here, this is really not rocket science. Believe it or not instrument build is a pretty forgiving medium - you cam saw off the block end creating a flat onto which you can screw the basswood block wood. Once you do, you can see how the facets on the block are merely extensions of the body facets. It is things like this which keep me carving solid moulds. Hope this helps, Rob Dorsey http://RobDorsey.com -Original Message- From: Din Ghani [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 11:26 AM To: 'Rob Dorsey'; 'Jon Murphy'; 'lute-builder' Subject: RE: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar Jon, I wish I had your carving skills - next time I make a lute I'd like to try a solid mould, but the thought of producing a complex shape with accurately curved lines and surfaces out of a lump of wood terrifies me! I'm sure with your experience of carving you will be able to work out how to go about it. I just about managed to carve the neck block with fairly accurate facets, following detailed instructions from David, and using the lines and facets from the completed mould to guide the carving. Unfortunately, as far as I can see, Lundberg's book does not even mention how the facets on the mould are cut. Rob, I hope you might be able to give me a clue, having learnt directly from him. I assume there is a systematic method, not relying just on a steady hand and a sharp eye? At heart, I guess I'm more of an engineer than a craftsman... Regards Din To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Spinacino Online
December 4th, 2007 Dear Lutenists: The Spinacino Lute manuscript as an electronic book is a great gift. You can almost feel the soft vellum under your hands. Almost makes one contemplate the possibility of reprints in part or in whole. Illustrated manuscripts are so exciting, it is very wonderful to be able to have a record of the original work and to have access to such gifts of the heart. Many thanks to John Griffiths, with thanks, Rebecca Banks Tea at Tympani Lane Records www.tympanilanerecords.com _ Introducing the City @ Live! Take a tour! http://getyourliveid.ca/?icid=LIVEIDENCA006 -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar
Din, Carving skills are a combination of craftsmanship and artistry. Artistry and craftsmanship when carving a free-form scupture - but craftsmanship in duplicating a fixed form. The craftsmanship can be considerably enhanced by the proper tools. Like you I note that Lundberg's book doesn't show the process of carving the facets - the photos jump from a smooth form to a faceted form with nice gullies to allow the ribs to sink into the facet (something David v.E. also recommends for his skeletal form). I had quite a time doing the neck block on my DvE mold also, but I was using free hand gouges from my carving tools, a small slip can screw it up. Most good woodworking catalogs (Lee Valley and Woodcraft come to mind) offer small planes as luthier's planes or finger planes some of which have laterally curved bases and blades - the same applies to small spokeshaves. They are not expensive, and being planes and spokeshaves they have the advantage of a controlled cut (and a bit of reshaping of the tool can adjust the radius to what you need). I have no fear of doing the facets with the small planes, but I'd be quite fearful of shaping them with the free hand gouges. I'm sure that Bob Lundberg could have shaped them with a kitchen knive (as Steve points out that Dan Larsen can shape a peg hole with a knife), but Rob will tell us that. The sharp eye is always needed, but the steady hand less so when the tool is taking a minimal cut. It may take a bit more time for the beginner than the expert, but the result can be the same. Best, Jon - Original Message - From: Din Ghani [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Rob Dorsey' [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Jon Murphy' [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'lute-builder' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 11:25 AM Subject: RE: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar Jon, I wish I had your carving skills - next time I make a lute I'd like to try a solid mould, but the thought of producing a complex shape with accurately curved lines and surfaces out of a lump of wood terrifies me! I'm sure with your experience of carving you will be able to work out how to go about it. I just about managed to carve the neck block with fairly accurate facets, following detailed instructions from David, and using the lines and facets from the completed mould to guide the carving. Unfortunately, as far as I can see, Lundberg's book does not even mention how the facets on the mould are cut. Rob, I hope you might be able to give me a clue, having learnt directly from him. I assume there is a systematic method, not relying just on a steady hand and a sharp eye? At heart, I guess I'm more of an engineer than a craftsman... Regards Din To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar
Jon, To answer your question. He probably could, but he wouldn't. Best, Rob Dorsey http://RobDorsey.com -Original Message- From: Jon Murphy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 10:39 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Rob Dorsey'; 'lute-builder' Subject: Re: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar Din, Carving skills are a combination of craftsmanship and artistry. Artistry and craftsmanship when carving a free-form scupture - but craftsmanship in duplicating a fixed form. The craftsmanship can be considerably enhanced by the proper tools. Like you I note that Lundberg's book doesn't show the process of carving the facets - the photos jump from a smooth form to a faceted form with nice gullies to allow the ribs to sink into the facet (something David v.E. also recommends for his skeletal form). I had quite a time doing the neck block on my DvE mold also, but I was using free hand gouges from my carving tools, a small slip can screw it up. Most good woodworking catalogs (Lee Valley and Woodcraft come to mind) offer small planes as luthier's planes or finger planes some of which have laterally curved bases and blades - the same applies to small spokeshaves. They are not expensive, and being planes and spokeshaves they have the advantage of a controlled cut (and a bit of reshaping of the tool can adjust the radius to what you need). I have no fear of doing the facets with the small planes, but I'd be quite fearful of shaping them with the free hand gouges. I'm sure that Bob Lundberg could have shaped them with a kitchen knive (as Steve points out that Dan Larsen can shape a peg hole with a knife), but Rob will tell us that. The sharp eye is always needed, but the steady hand less so when the tool is taking a minimal cut. It may take a bit more time for the beginner than the expert, but the result can be the same. Best, Jon - Original Message - From: Din Ghani [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Rob Dorsey' [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Jon Murphy' [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'lute-builder' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 11:25 AM Subject: RE: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar Jon, I wish I had your carving skills - next time I make a lute I'd like to try a solid mould, but the thought of producing a complex shape with accurately curved lines and surfaces out of a lump of wood terrifies me! I'm sure with your experience of carving you will be able to work out how to go about it. I just about managed to carve the neck block with fairly accurate facets, following detailed instructions from David, and using the lines and facets from the completed mould to guide the carving. Unfortunately, as far as I can see, Lundberg's book does not even mention how the facets on the mould are cut. Rob, I hope you might be able to give me a clue, having learnt directly from him. I assume there is a systematic method, not relying just on a steady hand and a sharp eye? At heart, I guess I'm more of an engineer than a craftsman... Regards Din To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Spinacino online
Dear Denys, It could be that the missing 2 on folio 37v is something that Mrs. Minkoff retouched. This would suggest that in 1992 she re-used the 1978 facsimile pages. Hers was an innocent activity. She just wanted everything to look neat and clean. When she was criticized (I think it was in a review by Bob Spencer), she took the remarks in very good humor, and realized her mistake. I'll get on to some examples of publisher's corrections. And why it is helpful to know where a given print came from. In a sense it sometimes has to do with establishing authority for a given reading. ==AJN (Boston, Mass.) ++ This week's free download from Classical Music Library is _Prokofiev's Sonata for Violin and Piano No. 1, Op. 80___ Go to my web page: http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/ For some free scores, go to: http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/ - Original Message - From: Denys Stephens [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Arthur Ness' [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Lute Net' lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 5:00 PM Subject: RE: [LUTE] Re: Spinacino online Dear Arthur, Your information about the Minkoff facsimilies is very useful to know. My own copy of the Spinacino facsimile is dated 1992, but I suspect that the images from the original edition may have been re-used for later re-prints. Working that out for sure would be a study in itself! I find it fascinating that for years we have only known Spinacino through the Minkoff edition taken from the pre-war photos in Paris, which made them our primary source for this work. Now these new images will also become a primary source for those of us unable to visit Cracow to see the original.Stephen Fryer is of course right in pointing out that it's presumably the slight distortion of the pages themselves that causes the stave lines to look distorted. It seems clear from the Minkoff print that this distortion was not evident in the photographs used to make their facsimile, so the damage has occurred since then. So we really need to use the Minkoff facsimile and the new images now when studying this source. At first I thought that seeing these new images would not tell us anything new about Spinacino's music, but now I'm not so sure. Just casually looking through the new images this evening f.37v of the Libro Primo caught my eye - in the bottom stave, 7th complete measure, the fourth event looks like a very indistinct '2' and someone has faintly added a 2 below the stave line, plus a '1' (or an extension of the bar line). In the Minkoff print all that can be seen for that event is a fingering dot and a crotchet sign - no tablature numeral at all. Perhaps there may not be many more instances like that, but they are certainly worth looking out for. Do tell us more about the publishers 'corrections' you know about. The more one learns about these things, the more apparent it becomes that 'facsimilies'are not all that we think they are! Best wishes, Denys -Original Message- From: Arthur Ness [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 02 December 2007 23:07 To: Lute Net Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spinacino online Dear Denys, I think it was about the time of the Utrecht lute conference where mention was made of Mrs. Minkoff's practice of retouching her facsimiles. She attended and took Bob Spencer's criticism at one of the sessions with typical good humor. The Minkoff facsimile first dates from 1978. Well before the criticism was expressed. She stopped the practice immediately. I wonder if she re-did the Spinacino facsijmile for the 1998ish reprint. That's a very interesting analysis you have made from a comparison of the two sets of images. During WW_II the ex-Berlin prints were stored in a monestary in Poland. It could well have been cold and damp. As I recall, however, they were very carefully packed. I'll have to tell you about some other instances of publisher's corrections. You are quite correct in looking at all known copies of a print, if possible. And in this case of the same print. ==AJN (Boston, Mass.) This week's free download from Classical Music Library is _Prokofiev's Sonata for Violin and Piano No. 1, Op. 80___ Go to my web page: http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/ For some free scores, go to: http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/ - Original Message - From: Denys Stephens [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 5:48 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spinacino online Dear Arthur All, Even though we are looking at two sets of images of the same prints, the published and online facsimilies are interesting to compare. Two things are immediately apparent. The library stamp has been removed from the title page of the Minkoff edition, which is fair enough as it's not part of the original, but it does make one wonder about any other details that might have been 'retouched.' Secondly, many of the stave
