[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: lute body...
Just use your hand and eyes... -Original Message- From: Duncan Midwinter [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 8:37 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] lute body... Is there a method for drawing the teardrop shape of a lute soundboard using circles? I've been messing around in Adobe Illustrator drawing different sized circles and can almost get there -- but not quite. -- Duncan Midwinter midwinterDesign creative website design http://www.midwinterdesign.co.uk -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Playing in time
Do you really mean this? Dowland galliards played at the same pulse as his pavans are going to seem VERY slow. P On 04/02/2008, Jaros³aw Lipski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Now, back to Melancholy Galliard. There is a misconception concerning this > dance saying that when it goes with its pair - Pavan- the later is slow > and > the former brisk and rapid. In fact the pulse of both is exactly the same > with the only difference that Pavan goes in rhythm of four in a bar which > equals three in a bar of Galliard. However the dancers change from stately > movements of Pavin to very fast steps of a Galliard and this is the reason > why people describe it as the fast dance. -- > Peter Martin > Belle Serre > La Caulié > 81100 Castres > France > tel: 0033 5 63 35 68 46 > e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > web: www.silvius.co.uk > http://absolute81.blogspot.com/ > www.myspace.com/sambuca999 > www.myspace.com/chuckerbutty To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE-BUILDER] lute body...
Is there a method for drawing the teardrop shape of a lute soundboard using circles? I've been messing around in Adobe Illustrator drawing different sized circles and can almost get there -- but not quite. -- Duncan Midwinter midwinterDesign creative website design http://www.midwinterdesign.co.uk -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute Diary travails of Learning the Lute . . . (Part One)
Usually plucked. There are some cases where a strum might be called for, but not that frequently in Renaissance lute. Guy -Original Message- From: Rebecca Banks [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, February 04, 2008 7:28 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute Diary travails of Learning the Lute . . . (Part One) February 5th, 2008 Dear Lutenists: I have just picked up a Lute primer and am deciphering Lute tablature. It is much different from playing the guitar, a steady strum or straight repetitive rhythmic plucking it is not. I am looking at John Dowland's "Weep no more sad fountains" and it looks like a lot of practice is needed to master the rhythmical cadence of the series of note plucks. First question, if 3 notes are demarcated on top of one another in tablature is that plucked or strummed? I can feel John Dowland in the background helping me write and I have 2 songs in Lyric set waiting for Lute music . . . very exciting . . . with thanks, Rebecca Banks Tea at Tympani Lane Records www.tympanilanerecords.com _ -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute Diary travails of Learning the Lute . . . (Part One)
February 5th, 2008 Dear Lutenists: I have just picked up a Lute primer and am deciphering Lute tablature. It is much different from playing the guitar, a steady strum or straight repetitive rhythmic plucking it is not. I am looking at John Dowland's "Weep no more sad fountains" and it looks like a lot of practice is needed to master the rhythmical cadence of the series of note plucks. First question, if 3 notes are demarcated on top of one another in tablature is that plucked or strummed? I can feel John Dowland in the background helping me write and I have 2 songs in Lyric set waiting for Lute music . . . very exciting . . . with thanks, Rebecca Banks Tea at Tympani Lane Records www.tympanilanerecords.com _ -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Pittoni's theorbo?
Roland, There are also John Wilson's pieces and other English works that just use the single re-entrant tuning. Unfortunately for Melli and Pittoni, this may solve extremely disjunct voice leading problems in some places but it will create more problems in others. In Pittoni and Melli, the second course is musically somehow both ABOVE the third course and BELOW the first. Its also above the fourth course. Descending melodic lines may begin on the 3rd course, continue down to the 1st course and then proceed to the 2nd course. In other contexts (often within the same piece) lines can begin on the 2nd course and continue "downwards" to the 3rd course. In still other cases, we find that runs begin on the 2nd course and continue to the 5th course. Obviously, things go the opposite way when dealing with ascending lines... In this repertoire, the situation is in fact 100% clear: the 2nd course always eschews obfuscation except when it does the opposite, which is true in all cases. :-) Chris --- Roland Hayes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > What about a lowered 1st on what we would otherwise > consider a large > archlute? I seem to remember an archlute piece (Doni > ms.) that does not > use a chanterelle. To me this implies that the first > course was > problematic at times at least (a la french 11 c. > pieces w/o chanterelle) > and may have been replaced with a string an octave > lower for both > continuo and solo pieces. > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Monday, February 04, 2008 2:36 PM > To: Jerzy Zak; Lute Net > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Pittoni's theorbo? > > Jurek, > > > There are many problematic areas in regard to > this matter. I > believe that the most satisfactory solution is the > second course in > octaves since it seems sometimes to act as a > "normal" low string and > sometimes like it in the high octave. I've been > playing around with > this for the past month or so (on my "toy") and its > quite musically > worthwhile. (For the record, I've got my octave > string in the upper > position like a baroque guitar.) > > > We're forgetting about Melli. Without the octave > 2nd, there are whole > pieces that disintegrate into annoying leaps. Take > these examples from > the 'Corrente detta la Strasinata per la Tiorba' > from his Libro Quinto > of 1620. > > The piece opens with a 16th-note run from the 1st > course to the second. > Fine for standard double re-entrant tuning. In bar > 6, however, there is > a trill (marked "T") above the dotted quarter on the > open second course. > The real problem comes with the fact that the trill > also has a > written-out termination. There are two 16ths: a '3' > on the third course > followed by a '0' on the second course which leads > into a '1' in the > next measure. How to make sense of this leap up a > minor seventh smack > in the middle of the concentrated gesture of rapid > neighboring tones > that make up a trill? The idea of the thing going > something like > "FEFEFEFEFE - D up a 7th - E down a 7th - F" in the > space of about a > second is ludicrous. And if Melli really wanted the > D as part of the > figure, why not just write an open 5th course? > These sorts of trills > happen all over. > > The figure at m.12 is problematic for standard > re-entrant tuning as > well. There is another four-note run in 16ths. In > this case the run > begins on an open second course and continues "down" > to '3-2-0' on the > third course. A leap up a minor seventh for no > reason. Why not just > write '5-3-2-0'? > > So far we might be able to argue that the piece, > although labeled "per > la Tiorba" has in fact been written for a lute or > "theorbo" with only > one or no re-entrant strings (then not a theorbo at > all, of course). > Measure 20 presents problems with this solution. > Here there is a > typical theorbo-ism - a 16th-note run divided > between strings. The > figure begins with a '3-1' on course 3, continues to > a '1' on the 1st > course, and moves on to a '2' on the 4th course > before finishing with a > '1' back on the 1st course. Such a figure would be > pointless in lute > tuning. Why not write those 1st course '1's' as > '3's' > on the 3rd course? > > Is single re-entrant tuning intended? There are > problems with that, > especially with what follows. The piece ends with a > nice set of > sequences using the 16th-note figure: > > m. 22 - '3-1-0' on course 1; '3' on course 2 > > m. 24 - '0' course 2; '3-2-0' course 3 > > m. 26 - '3-1-0' course 3; '2' course 4 > > m. 27 - '3-1-0' course 2; '3' course 3 > > m. 28 - '0' course 1; '3-2-0' course 2, incidentally > ending with '0' on > the 5th course. > > > This happens in the short space of a few measures > within ONE piece by > Melli. Many more such examples abound. > > Clearly he thought of the second course as musically > neighboring either > the first course, third course, OR 4th course. I'v
[LUTE] Re: Playing in time
Dear Steward, Thank you for your comments. Yes, I love Mace's way of saying things, his great imaginative spirit and type of humor. In spite of what some people may say about his oddity, he remains one of the best sources of information on music making and lute playing in XVIIc (particularly his account of - as he says -what "people commonly do"). I have a feeling that we came closer a little bit in our opinions this time. Nevertheless I would like to explain two things: 1/ I never tried to defend the lute player on Polish site playing Dlugoraj's Finale, because I agree that this is not the way to play this piece (nor any other music). 2/ I do not advocate getting rid of pulse altogether. Two extremes that I presented in my previous email where obviously exaggerated on purpose for simplification reasons - it's much more difficult to talk about subtleties. To go step further we could ask the question: In order to play in time what should be observed? a/ metronomic click b/ phrasal accent I would choose the later. If we follow the metronome there is a danger that we can loose the logic of musical phrases which don't go along bar lines. With solo music it's quite easy - I would say much easier than following metronome because one can naturally breath when "saying" phrases (close similarity to speech which Mace advocated in his Music's Monument). And paradoxically it sounds much more in time, dancing in swaying or bouncing motion. In an ensemble it's not too difficult either, because the logic of the phrase and the accents are quite intuitive if we properly understand them. Donnington describes many practical ways of "saying music" in his chapter "Variations of tempo" Now, back to Melancholy Galliard. There is a misconception concerning this dance saying that when it goes with its pair - Pavan- the later is slow and the former brisk and rapid. In fact the pulse of both is exactly the same with the only difference that Pavan goes in rhythm of four in a bar which equals three in a bar of Galliard. However the dancers change from stately movements of Pavin to very fast steps of a Galliard and this is the reason why people describe it as the fast dance. I agree with Dante Ferrara that it varied at different times and places, so there is no really one Galliard. Moreover the dance forms were undergoing evolution and instrumental versions appeared that had little in common with its originals. To cite Donnington: "It must further be remembered that dances which have once left the dance-floor and become musical forms in their own right almost inevitably undergo some modification, and usually a considerable transformation. They tend to slow down as well as growing more flexible in rhythm. Their style may be more sophisticated, their figuration more elaborate, their mood more introspective." I doubt if anybody ever danced to Melancholy Galliard. Regarding it from this point of view I would say that Nigel was in his right to interpret it his way. Whether we like it or not is a very personal thing, but fortunately by playing in so many different ways people enrich our early music perception. Thank you for a stimulating chat. All the best Jaroslaw -Original Message- From: Stewart McCoy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, February 04, 2008 4:05 PM To: Lute net Subject: [LUTE] Playing in time Dear Jaroslaw, Thanks for Mace's description of the Prelude. He has such a wonderful way with words, doesn't he, combining erudition with dry humour. I think we are agreed that preludes and pieces of a similar nature require more rhythmic flexibility than others. You give two extremes of performance: using rubato to cover technical difficulties; playing in strict time without any regard to phrasing and such like. Neither are desirable, but it's where you stand inbetween which counts. Playing in strict time doesn't have to be boring. You can still observe phrasing, louds and softs, and so on, while playing in time, and as Donington points out, a slow piece played well in time, may have more poignancy than one where the rhythm is dragged out. -o-O-o- As in so many matters concerning the lute, Thomas Mace gives valuable advice. Preludes are to be played freely, but you have to capture the spirit of each piece according to its particular properties. Dlugaraj's Finale is not a prelude; it is a rollicking final piece. That is why the interpretation on the Polish website is, in my view, hopelessly wide of the mark. Dowland's Melancholy Galliard may have an oxymoronic title, but however sad you want the piece to be, however slow you want to play it, it must still be a galliard, and not lose sight of the characteristic galliard rhythm. It is true that Mace describes galliards as slow dances, but he doesn't tell us to play them out of time. -o-O-o- You refer to Donington's distinction between pulse and accent. It is true that the two do not always coincide, confirmed in all periods of music, not least by Sc
[LUTE] Re: recordings page
Martin, that is very beautiful, and a much better recorded sound than you had sent me before. The gut sounds great, great separation, nice singing treble and mellifluous bass. And your playing is excellent too. I couldn't detect any edits - sounds like single takes. Well done. How many luthiers can play THAT well?! Rob www.rmguitar.info -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Pittoni's theorbo?
On Feb 4, 2008, at 12:36 PM, Roland Hayes wrote: > I seem to remember an archlute piece (Doni ms.) that does not > use a chanterelle. To me this implies that the first course was > problematic at times at least (a la french 11 c. pieces w/o > chanterelle) > and may have been replaced with a string an octave lower for both > continuo and solo pieces. There are other "senza canto" pieces; one is in Gianoncelli's book, I think. I'm more inclined to think they imply that first courses broke more often than others, so it was nice to have a something to play when it happened. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Pittoni's theorbo?
What about a lowered 1st on what we would otherwise consider a large archlute? I seem to remember an archlute piece (Doni ms.) that does not use a chanterelle. To me this implies that the first course was problematic at times at least (a la french 11 c. pieces w/o chanterelle) and may have been replaced with a string an octave lower for both continuo and solo pieces. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, February 04, 2008 2:36 PM To: Jerzy Zak; Lute Net Subject: [LUTE] Re: Pittoni's theorbo? Jurek, There are many problematic areas in regard to this matter. I believe that the most satisfactory solution is the second course in octaves since it seems sometimes to act as a "normal" low string and sometimes like it in the high octave. I've been playing around with this for the past month or so (on my "toy") and its quite musically worthwhile. (For the record, I've got my octave string in the upper position like a baroque guitar.) We're forgetting about Melli. Without the octave 2nd, there are whole pieces that disintegrate into annoying leaps. Take these examples from the 'Corrente detta la Strasinata per la Tiorba' from his Libro Quinto of 1620. The piece opens with a 16th-note run from the 1st course to the second. Fine for standard double re-entrant tuning. In bar 6, however, there is a trill (marked "T") above the dotted quarter on the open second course. The real problem comes with the fact that the trill also has a written-out termination. There are two 16ths: a '3' on the third course followed by a '0' on the second course which leads into a '1' in the next measure. How to make sense of this leap up a minor seventh smack in the middle of the concentrated gesture of rapid neighboring tones that make up a trill? The idea of the thing going something like "FEFEFEFEFE - D up a 7th - E down a 7th - F" in the space of about a second is ludicrous. And if Melli really wanted the D as part of the figure, why not just write an open 5th course? These sorts of trills happen all over. The figure at m.12 is problematic for standard re-entrant tuning as well. There is another four-note run in 16ths. In this case the run begins on an open second course and continues "down" to '3-2-0' on the third course. A leap up a minor seventh for no reason. Why not just write '5-3-2-0'? So far we might be able to argue that the piece, although labeled "per la Tiorba" has in fact been written for a lute or "theorbo" with only one or no re-entrant strings (then not a theorbo at all, of course). Measure 20 presents problems with this solution. Here there is a typical theorbo-ism - a 16th-note run divided between strings. The figure begins with a '3-1' on course 3, continues to a '1' on the 1st course, and moves on to a '2' on the 4th course before finishing with a '1' back on the 1st course. Such a figure would be pointless in lute tuning. Why not write those 1st course '1's' as '3's' on the 3rd course? Is single re-entrant tuning intended? There are problems with that, especially with what follows. The piece ends with a nice set of sequences using the 16th-note figure: m. 22 - '3-1-0' on course 1; '3' on course 2 m. 24 - '0' course 2; '3-2-0' course 3 m. 26 - '3-1-0' course 3; '2' course 4 m. 27 - '3-1-0' course 2; '3' course 3 m. 28 - '0' course 1; '3-2-0' course 2, incidentally ending with '0' on the 5th course. This happens in the short space of a few measures within ONE piece by Melli. Many more such examples abound. Clearly he thought of the second course as musically neighboring either the first course, third course, OR 4th course. I've found that having the octave string closest to the third course allows me to sometimes emphasize the lower octave and sometimes the higher one. (Having it closest to the 1st course made it difficult to bring out the low octave). Its been fun working with it. And of course it works nicely for Pittoni, too! Chris --- Jerzy Zak <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Martyn, > > Indeed, the Liste archives give ample exemples the 'Pittoni case' is > an unsolved problem. Of course you know, the problem is not only on > page 43, but on almost every page of this interesting from several > points of view publication. I've played in concert one of the sonatas > and have a score of it, and now I've examined the whole volume again. > > There are several types of scalic passages. The ones before cadences > with lips of a seventh presents no problem at all, they are idiomatic > to any instrument of the time. But there are many others which are > broken around the second course. Some are explicable by common > practice of braking passages, say, like in transcriptions from one > medium to another - eg. JS Bach's own converting traverso flute part > to a flauto dolce part in one [or more] of his cantata, or many > adaptations of violin music to a traverso flute in the XVIIIth C. But > some others see
[LUTE] Re: Pittoni's theorbo?
Jurek, There are many problematic areas in regard to this matter. I believe that the most satisfactory solution is the second course in octaves since it seems sometimes to act as a "normal" low string and sometimes like it in the high octave. Ive been playing around with this for the past month or so (on my toy) and its quite musically worthwhile. (For the record, Ive got my octave string in the upper position like a baroque guitar.) Were forgetting about Melli. Without the octave 2nd, there are whole pieces that disintegrate into annoying leaps. Take these examples from the Corrente detta la Strasinata per la Tiorba from his Libro Quinto of 1620. The piece opens with a 16th-note run from the 1st course to the second. Fine for standard double re-entrant tuning. In bar 6, however, there is a trill (marked T) above the dotted quarter on the open second course. The real problem comes with the fact that the trill also has a written-out termination. There are two 16ths: a 3 on the third course followed by a 0 on the second course which leads into a 1 in the next measure. How to make sense of this leap up a minor seventh smack in the middle of the concentrated gesture of rapid neighboring tones that make up a trill? The idea of the thing going something like FEFEFEFEFE D up a 7th E down a 7th F in the space of about a second is ludicrous. And if Melli really wanted the D as part of the figure, why not just write an open 5th course? These sorts of trills happen all over. The figure at m.12 is problematic for standard re-entrant tuning as well. There is another four-note run in 16ths. In this case the run begins on an open second course and continues down to 3-2-0 on the third course. A leap up a minor seventh for no reason. Why not just write 5-3-2-0? So far we might be able to argue that the piece, although labeled per la Tiorba has in fact been written for a lute or theorbo with only one or no re-entrant strings (then not a theorbo at all, of course). Measure 20 presents problems with this solution. Here there is a typical theorbo-ism a 16th-note run divided between strings. The figure begins with a 3-1 on course 3, continues to a 1 on the 1st course, and moves on to a 2 on the 4th course before finishing with a 1 back on the 1st course. Such a figure would be pointless in lute tuning. Why not write those 1st course 1s as 3s on the 3rd course? Is single re-entrant tuning intended? There are problems with that, especially with what follows. The piece ends with a nice set of sequences using the 16th-note figure: m. 22 3-1-0 on course 1; 3 on course 2 m. 24 0 course 2; 3-2-0 course 3 m. 26 3-1-0 course 3; 2 course 4 m. 27 3-1-0 course 2; 3 course 3 m. 28 0 course 1; 3-2-0 course 2, incidentally ending with 0 on the 5th course. This happens in the short space of a few measures within ONE piece by Melli. Many more such examples abound. Clearly he thought of the second course as musically neighboring either the first course, third course, OR 4th course. Ive found that having the octave string closest to the third course allows me to sometimes emphasize the lower octave and sometimes the higher one. (Having it closest to the 1st course made it difficult to bring out the low octave). Its been fun working with it. And of course it works nicely for Pittoni, too! Chris --- Jerzy Zak <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Martyn, > > Indeed, the Liste archives give ample exemples the > 'Pittoni case' is > an unsolved problem. Of course you know, the problem > is not only on > page 43, but on almost every page of this > interesting from several > points of view publication. I've played in concert > one of the sonatas > and have a score of it, and now I've examined the > whole volume again. > > There are several types of scalic passages. The ones > before cadences > with lips of a seventh presents no problem at all, > they are idiomatic > to any instrument of the time. But there are many > others which are > broken around the second course. Some are explicable > by common > practice of braking passages, say, like in > transcriptions from one > medium to another - eg. JS Bach's own converting > traverso flute part > to a flauto dolce part in one [or more] of his > cantata, or many > adaptations of violin music to a traverso flute in > the XVIIIth C. But > some others seems less hit home and it's either > Pittoni's laziness to > get the 'proper' tone on the 3rd c. in high position > or he had the > second in octave. In this case a matter of 'taste' > in evaluation is > inevitable... > > On the other hand Pittoni is a virtuoso and he knows > well the very > 'tiorbistic' campanella devises and is using them > readily, often > high, using the 1st, the 3rd and the 4th c. (but I > spoted also > campanella with 2nd). Sometime the campanellas are > just neighbouring > wi
[LUTE] Re: Pittoni's theorbo?
Martyn, Indeed, the Liste archives give ample exemples the 'Pittoni case' is an unsolved problem. Of course you know, the problem is not only on page 43, but on almost every page of this interesting from several points of view publication. I've played in concert one of the sonatas and have a score of it, and now I've examined the whole volume again. There are several types of scalic passages. The ones before cadences with lips of a seventh presents no problem at all, they are idiomatic to any instrument of the time. But there are many others which are broken around the second course. Some are explicable by common practice of braking passages, say, like in transcriptions from one medium to another - eg. JS Bach's own converting traverso flute part to a flauto dolce part in one [or more] of his cantata, or many adaptations of violin music to a traverso flute in the XVIIIth C. But some others seems less hit home and it's either Pittoni's laziness to get the 'proper' tone on the 3rd c. in high position or he had the second in octave. In this case a matter of 'taste' in evaluation is inevitable... On the other hand Pittoni is a virtuoso and he knows well the very 'tiorbistic' campanella devises and is using them readily, often high, using the 1st, the 3rd and the 4th c. (but I spoted also campanella with 2nd). Sometime the campanellas are just neighbouring with the 'spoiled' scalic passages ...In fact almost any possible situation you can finde on the 44 + 40 pages of quite dense music. There is no point for citations, it would have to be a long paper including a fair number of statistics - not for a mailing liste. I do not have an easy answer but I feel the second course in octave would greatly _pacify_ most situations, at the same time not creating a bright conflict in passing from the 1st to the 2nd c. As to the sonic qualities of the so called 'toy theorbo', as I sad, it would be a sort of 'big baroque lute' (a tone lower), nothing, really nothing strange. Besides, I have some other observation on music of the time and lutenists/theorbists position within, which may add life to the concept. How much of such solo music survived? - you know, very little. And why? Becouse virtuosos might play anything at hand, including the violin music. Having an instrument in A with 2nd c. with the high octave - well, a hipothetical instrument - one can play straight from the violin part, it will just sound and octave lower, without any transposition. The same of course may concern an archlute players. Look for example at Maurizio Cazzati, ''Correnti, e balletti per sonare nella spinetta, leuto, o tiorba; overo violino, e violone, col secondo violino a beneplacito…'' opera XXX, Bologna 1662. Obviously, only string parts in music notation exists. Italians on the list may help, but for now I understand it as if Cazzati created his pieces for 'spinetta, leuto, o tiorba', which now one can play them on bowed strings, too. Worth to bring back at this point is the Harrah/Spencer MS with Italian anon. archlute concerti notated in treble (solos) or bass (continuo) clef on one staff, or SL Weiss able to play 'violin concerti straight from their notation' (Baron). Anyway, the exchange of repertoire seems to me almost axiomatic at the time. No need to publish it in tablature. The less paper and transmission techniques, the better. In the end they were improvising much more then we now. Perhaps then, there is no just ONE 'theorbo'? Thanks for yours and Others attention to this longish epistle, Jurek ___ On 2008-02-04, at 10:51, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Thank you Jerzy. I take it you're referring to the hypothesis that the occasional leap in a scalic passage played on the 2nd and 3rd course of a double reentrant theorbo (say, as found in Pittoni 1669, eg last bar page 43 in da Chiesa volume) might possibly suggest there could have been octave stringing on the 2nd course. Pttoni writes for a theorbo in A. As you'll probably know, this was discussed some time ago (see archives) and no concencus seemed to emerge as to wether one just accepted this whenever it occurred or wether he did indeed employ a high octave on the 2nd (or some other device? eg putting a low octave on the 3rd!). You'll not be surprised that I fall into the first camp and my and others views will be found in the archives. But in short, as with similar 'discontinuities' in much baroque guitar music, I believe that the 'Old Ones' weren't over concerned about these occasional leaps (indeed, contemporary music for other instruments, eg Corelli, sometimes employs wide leaps as a compositional effect). The important thing for me (and this is, of course, subjective) is that there is a clear sense of the melodic and of the bass line and I find that with the firmer thumb stroke on the bass line and/or allied with the co
[LUTE] Source Wars
Dear David and Vance, I am sorry if you feel aggrieved that I have not replied to your messages. I wrote to David on 17th December 2007 providing information on a modern edition of Lauffensteiner. I last wrote to Vance on 2nd February 2007 to provide a web address for a supposed portrait of Dowland, but I admit that was rather a long time ago. The various topics which come under discussion on this list will not appeal to everyone. I am shocked though, David, that you think my recent discussion with Jaroslaw is in any way some kind of war. Rather I see it as a useful exchange of ideas, and feel I have learned much from it, digging out copies of Mace and Geminiani from my shelves here at home, borrowing a copy of Donington from a friend locally, and seeing what all these authors had to say about performance practice. I very much appreciate reading Jaroslaw's contributions, which have stimulated this research. On a practical note, I never send the same message twice to people now, unless by accident. I used to think it was a courteousy to do so, until I received this PS following a message to the Lute List, in reply to one of mine, from Gordon Gregory on 4th August 2000: "PS Thanks for sending a copy of your note to me as well as to the NG, but I'm on the NG so I will get it anyway. Your way I get 2 copies." By "NG" he meant "Lute News Group", i.e. Wayne's Lute List. He made me realise that sending the same message twice was actually a discourteousy, since he would have to click on two messages to save or delete them, which was an unnecessary waste of time. Sometimes it happens that I duplicate what someone else has written. This usually occurs when their message comes in as mine goes out, so the two messages cross in the ether. Otherwise I try to avoid duplication. However, if our messages are saying the same thing, that can't be too bad, because it shows we agree on some things at least. Best wishes to you both, Stewart. - Original Message - From: "vance wood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Lute List" Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2008 6:57 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Source Wars Ahhha, David: You forget egos and music. You cannot separate the two and sometimes egos show themselves in rude responses and --- no responses: I get that all the time. Vw - Original Message - From: "David Rastall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Lute Net" Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2008 1:41 PM Subject: [LUTE] Source Wars I assume that these source wars, where one person trots out his sources, and someone else trots out his in rebuttal, are purely academic discussions with little or no relationship to actual real- world playing. Otherwise, if you guys need to be told how to play musically, if you have to look it up in your historical sources, then there is something fundmentally wrong with your own innate sense of music making. At the end of Stewart McCoy's last post I felt like saying "congratulations, you just discovered musicianship!" (not that Stewart ever acknowledges any of my posts. He simply replies to the list saying the same things I just said, without even the courtesy of a cc). I wonder, though, whether anyone who considers himself/ herself a serious and accomplished player is going to be swayed significantly by anything in those sources. David R [EMAIL PROTECTED] To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: recordings page
Martin, Beautiful tone, and very nicely played. Please give us some technical details about your recording equipment. I dream of owning one of your lutes someday. Stephen Arndt - Original Message - From: "Martin Shepherd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Lute Net" Sent: Monday, February 04, 2008 4:47 AM Subject: [LUTE] recordings page Dear All, I've just uploaded a test version of a page dedicated to my home recordings. I'm obviously got some fiddling to do with the technology, and some serious practising, but let me know what you think. The page may not be immediately accessible from my homepage, but you can find it at: www.luteshop.co.uk/recordings.html Best wishes, Martin To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Strap buttons - Was: contributions to this list
Most lutenists use a strap and I'm sure that you will get many responses/suggestions etc. We may even have a return to the discussion of using tables to support the lute and amplify the sound :-) Regards Neil -Original Message- From: Greg Fleming [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 04 February 2008 15:04 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Strap buttons - Was: contributions to this list Rob wrote: > I would like to read/hear more from beginners... > > So I call on all those lurkers who are even too shy to contribute > emails, let us know what you are up to, ask questions. I have many > questions of my own - the subject is too large for one person to know > everything. > Ok, I'll bite. I bought my first lute a few months ago, a used 7c by John Underwood. (I'm not at home at the moment, so I might have that name wrong...) I'm finding that my initial difficulty in finding a comfortable position to hold the instrument has decreased, but not gone away completely, so I'm thinking about having strap buttons added and playing with a strap. In thinking about this, I have spent some time on the internet trying to find out whether there is any evidence of strap buttons on 16th or early 17th century lutes, and I'm coming up empty. I haven't been able to find any discussion of the subject at all, let alone a conclusion one way or the other. Either I just don't know the right terms to search with, or, more likely, it's such common knowledge that no one has bothered to write it down anywhere that google knows about. At this point, I've more or less decided to have strap buttons added regardless of authenticity, but my curiosity remains unsatisfied. Can anyone here shed some light on the subject? thanks, Greg Fleming To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Playing in time
Dear Jaroslaw, Thanks for Mace's description of the Prelude. He has such a wonderful way with words, doesn't he, combining erudition with dry humour. I think we are agreed that preludes and pieces of a similar nature require more rhythmic flexibility than others. You give two extremes of performance: using rubato to cover technical difficulties; playing in strict time without any regard to phrasing and such like. Neither are desirable, but it's where you stand inbetween which counts. Playing in strict time doesn't have to be boring. You can still observe phrasing, louds and softs, and so on, while playing in time, and as Donington points out, a slow piece played well in time, may have more poignancy than one where the rhythm is dragged out. -o-O-o- As in so many matters concerning the lute, Thomas Mace gives valuable advice. Preludes are to be played freely, but you have to capture the spirit of each piece according to its particular properties. Dlugaraj's Finale is not a prelude; it is a rollicking final piece. That is why the interpretation on the Polish website is, in my view, hopelessly wide of the mark. Dowland's Melancholy Galliard may have an oxymoronic title, but however sad you want the piece to be, however slow you want to play it, it must still be a galliard, and not lose sight of the characteristic galliard rhythm. It is true that Mace describes galliards as slow dances, but he doesn't tell us to play them out of time. -o-O-o- You refer to Donington's distinction between pulse and accent. It is true that the two do not always coincide, confirmed in all periods of music, not least by Scott Joplin. However, that is no justification for getting rid of pulse altogether. We are talking about all music in mensural notation which has a pulse, not only dance music. Rhythms in 16th-century polyphonic compositions are often quite complex, and they need a steady pulse and accurate realisation of the rhythm for them to be successful. That means singing and playing in time. Some contend that fantasies, such as those of Francesco da Milano, should be played freely, as if they were some kind of unmeasured prelude. Some of those pieces have contreparties added by Matelart. Does that mean that the free, arrhythmic performance suddenly goes out of the window when a second lute part is added? You cannot reasonably add a second lute part to a piece which does not have a regular pulse, and which was intended to be per! formed out of time. -o-O-o- Your reference to Geminiani comes from his Example XXIV, where he cautions against using the bow to keep time, i.e. by playing the first note of each bar with a down bow. He says that bowing should be used to accent certain notes which may, or may not, occur on the first beat of each bar. That doesn't really concern the present discussion. In Example XVIII, Geminiani maintains that to play with good taste is to play what the composer intended. In this context he says one should avoid adding "passages" (i.e. divisions): "... playing in good Taste doth not consist of frequent Passages, but in expressing with Strength and Delicacy the Intention of the Composer." Geminiani then lists 14 ways of making music expressive, including louds and softs and adding various ornaments. For example, the "Beat" (i.e. a sequence of lower mordents, as notated on p. 26), is an ornament which can be added to express various emotions: "... if it be perform'd with Strength, and continued long, it expresses Fury, Anger, Resolution, &c. If it be play'd less strong and shorter, it expresses Mirth, Satisfaction, &c. But if you play it quite soft, and swell the Note, it may then denote Horror, Fear, Grief, Lamentation, &c. By making it short and swelling the Note gently, it may express Affection and Pleasure." There may be freedom and variety in the way Geminiani performs his added ornaments, but nowhere in all this does he suggest playing out of time what the composer wrote. Best wishes, Stewart. - Original Message - From: "Jaroslaw Lipski" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'Lute'" Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2008 11:59 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Playing in time Dear Stewart, Sorry for changing the title but I don't think being Polish has anything to do with playing in time. Thank you very much for your analysis. Yes, obviously Robert Donington "The interpretation of early music" is a great source of knowledge for all of us. It's very handy for me, because I don't need to search originals even if they stand next to Donnigton on my book shelve in order to write short email for a mailing list. Anyway, back to the subject. What gave you an impulse to write was playing with "sloppy rubato all over the place" as you say, by the lute player from Contrabellum ensemble. I have to stress, this is not a defence of this type of playing. We can see two extremes in modern lute playing: 1/covering technical problems with ritardandos, rubatos etc. 2/keep
[LUTE] Strap buttons - Was: contributions to this list
Rob wrote: I would like to read/hear more from beginners... So I call on all those lurkers who are even too shy to contribute emails, let us know what you are up to, ask questions. I have many questions of my own - the subject is too large for one person to know everything. Ok, I'll bite. I bought my first lute a few months ago, a used 7c by John Underwood. (I'm not at home at the moment, so I might have that name wrong...) I'm finding that my initial difficulty in finding a comfortable position to hold the instrument has decreased, but not gone away completely, so I'm thinking about having strap buttons added and playing with a strap. In thinking about this, I have spent some time on the internet trying to find out whether there is any evidence of strap buttons on 16th or early 17th century lutes, and I'm coming up empty. I haven't been able to find any discussion of the subject at all, let alone a conclusion one way or the other. Either I just don't know the right terms to search with, or, more likely, it's such common knowledge that no one has bothered to write it down anywhere that google knows about. At this point, I've more or less decided to have strap buttons added regardless of authenticity, but my curiosity remains unsatisfied. Can anyone here shed some light on the subject? thanks, Greg Fleming To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Pittoni's theorbo?
I was tempted to point out early on in this discussion that skips of a 7th and 9th in scale passages (known as campanellas) are commonplace in baroque guitar music and whatever method of stringing is used (short of octave stringing on all 5 courses which is hardly practical) these can't be eliminated altogether. Not being a theorbo players I refrained but I am glad Martyn has pointed this out. I think one should be rather cautious about assuming that something that doesn't match our pre-conceived ideas about what 17th century music might have sounded like would necessarily have been a problem to 17th century players. The crucial consideration is - would it work in practice? Not being a theorbo player I can't say. But I guess the music is the way it is because that is how the instrument was - not vice-versa. Monica - Original Message - From: "Martyn Hodgson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Jerzy Zak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Lute Net" Sent: Monday, February 04, 2008 9:51 AM Subject: [LUTE] Pittoni's theorbo? Thank you Jerzy. I take it you're referring to the hypothesis that the occasional leap in a scalic passage played on the 2nd and 3rd course of a double reentrant theorbo (say, as found in Pittoni 1669, eg last bar page 43 in da Chiesa volume) might possibly suggest there could have been octave stringing on the 2nd course. Pttoni writes for a theorbo in A. As you'll probably know, this was discussed some time ago (see archives) and no concencus seemed to emerge as to wether one just accepted this whenever it occurred or wether he did indeed employ a high octave on the 2nd (or some other device? eg putting a low octave on the 3rd!). You'll not be surprised that I fall into the first camp and my and others views will be found in the archives. But in short, as with similar 'discontinuities' in much baroque guitar music, I believe that the 'Old Ones' weren't over concerned about these occasional leaps (indeed, contemporary music for other instruments, eg Corelli, sometimes employs wide leaps as a compositional effect). The important thing for me (and this is, of course, subjective) is that there is a clear sense of the melodic and of the bass line and I find that with the firmer thumb stroke on the bass line and/or allied with the continuo Pittoni calls for (organo or clavicembalo) there is no real sense of any strange harmonic inversion. The bar on page 43 also illustrates another problem: if one accepts an octave on the 2nd, where does it all end? - since here the scalic passage, both ascending and descending, crosses all three top courses: there has to be a discontinuity somewhere; wether it be between the 2nd and 3rd or 1st and 2nd. Note also that at the beginning of this bar he completes the previous ascending phrase on the same course (3rd at fret 7) and then plays the same note on course 2 (fret1) to start the next short phrase. This, I suggest, shows he made a concious choice to start the next phrase at the lower octave - in short double reentrant. Personally, I rather like the octave leap at the end of the bar MH Jerzy Zak <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Martyn, All this is very persuasive, but what about the story of a double re- entrant instrument with double strings and the second course in octaves, in G or A? From my sketchy calculations it appeares it must be an instrument of about 74 cm (stopped), considering on one side the breaking point of the high octave of the second (the _e'_) and the musical quality of the 6th (or 7th) course. As a theorbo it's a toy instrument, useless (?), but in therms of say a baroque d-m lute, with which it shares the tessitura, it is a huge one. In this case such a theorbo would have the 5th and the 6th (+ the 7th?) in octaves as well. Someone said that already. Gratefull for comments, Jurek __ On 2008-02-03, at 10:50, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Thanks for this; I'd be grateful for a fuller response to cover all the points in my previous email to you. Nevertheless I'll respond to this one below: INFORMATION I now see from your mention of my guitar stringing email that you seem to equate 'information' solely with figures whereas I also include other things such as tunings, examples of solo music, etc which you do not count as information - we'll bear this in mind. BOB SPENCER'S & LYNDA SAYCE'S PAPERS In fact, Bob Spencer gave examples of large double reentrant theorbos in A and G (with string lengths around 89 and 91cm - the same ones I gave details earlier). He also cites Mace on tuning of single and double theorbos in G and A and says that large theorbos need the two highest courses down the octave and not just the first (ie smaller theorbos just had the first course on actave down p. 412). Similarly, Lynda Sayce does in fact provide much information including sizes of some large extant theorbos. TALBOT MS Talbot fortunately gives more than the minimum number of dimensions and it is
[LUTE] Re: Playing in time
Dante wrote... Then fasten the end of the string upon some hook, or nail, to the top of the seiling, so, as the weight may well-nigh touch the bottom of the floor; and when this is done, set it to work, after this manner, viz. Take the weight in your hand, and carry it to one side of the room, lifting it so high as you can reach, then let it fall out of your hand; and you shall observe, 'that this weight will keep an exact true motion of time, forwards and backwards, for an hour or two, togetherSo here is an upside down metronome. Does it really work and has anyone tried it? Dante Mm...Okay for Largo I suppose...Allegro not so. Okay until the cat notices it. Or, your partner brings in a cup of tea! Sorry, for being so negative - couldn't resist. Ron (UK) -- Staying with Mace, Stewart kindly quoted: "[Beginners must learn strict time; but] when we come to be Masters, so that we can command all manner of Time, at our own Pleasures; we Then take Liberty, (and very often, for Humour [i.e. "mood", not "wit"], and good Adornment-sake, in certain Places), to Break Time; sometimes Faster, and sometimes Slower, as we perceive, the Nature of the Thing Requires." I used the word 'humour' when the Karamazov debate raged on. It would seem that some interpreted it for 'funny' as in 'side-splitting gag'. It was used in the old sense. - I am sure it has been discussed before (before I joined the list) but the speed of a galliard has croppped up. Again from Stewart... In his latest Dowland CD, Nigel North includes Melancholy Galliard. He plays this slower than other galliards on the CD, understandably because of the title. I tried to measure with a metronome what the difference in speed is between the galliards. With the faster ones, it was possible to come up with an approximate figure, but it was impossible to measure Melancholy Galliard, because the piece kept changing speed. The word "Melancholy" might well suggest slowness, but the word "galliard" should suggest a dance rhythm, however slow that may be. Whilst I have not yet heard NN's recording, I have come to terms with galliards by playing them as if dancers were with me - keeping a regularity of beat whilst watching out for their physical capabilites, i.e. drawing of breath, repositioning of posture. And some do suit a slower approach according to their 'humour'. Mace is so detailed that contradictions are bound to occur. He describes the galliard on p.129 as "Lessons of 2, or 3 strains, but are performed in a slow, and large triple-time; and (commonly) grave and sober." By 1676 I'm sure galliards were tired, old-fashioned affairs. To describe the playing of a galliard thus, flies in the face of the 16th century style when it was a lively show off piece - almost a virility test. My points here are twofold. Firstly, is Mace describing the English music scene of 1676, hitherto pounded by decades of draconian restrictions on music-making? Or might his work be ground-breaking, laying down rules for the future of English music-making? I suspect the former. We might look to Mace as the yardstick to all things lute-ish but I feel he has merely captured (albeit in a highly scholarly manner) a time capsule of the English music scene. (Do viol players look to him with the same intensity?). I know he frequently mentions the 'French style' but I can't help thinking that by 1676, Sanz's guitar book had been out for two years, Corbetta was all the rage in France and a few years later so was de Visee. The English have never been quick to grasp the latest fashions and styles, so to my second point - how much consideration should we give to interpreting different a country's dance styles? There is a danger here of sweeping generalisations and stereotypics. Should all Italian dances be played in a racy and passionate manner? Should all French dances be played in a light and airy manner. Should an Englishman play a galliard 'grave and sober' because Mace says so? Should all preludes be played in the same manner or might a certain country's style suggest a more rhapsodic approach than another's - or should personal preference prevail? As historically-aware Europeans, we will have our own cultural baggage/influences to deal with. As an English-born Italian I often find myself pulled from one culture to another. I'd be interested to hear how our New World lutenists deal with this issue. DF To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: recordings page
Martin Shepherd wrote: Dear All, I've just uploaded a test version of a page dedicated to my home recordings. I'm obviously got some fiddling to do with the technology, and some serious practising, but let me know what you think. The page may not be immediately accessible from my homepage, but you can find it at: www.luteshop.co.uk/recordings.html Best wishes, Martin Very delicate playing. It's sounds lovely. Do you have octaves on the lower course(s)? I can't hear them - just a bass, gutty sound. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] recordings page
Dear All, I've just uploaded a test version of a page dedicated to my home recordings. I'm obviously got some fiddling to do with the technology, and some serious practising, but let me know what you think. The page may not be immediately accessible from my homepage, but you can find it at: www.luteshop.co.uk/recordings.html Best wishes, Martin To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Playing in time
Hello all Now that chunks of Mace are being quoted, I'd like to ask if anyone has tried out his 'Infallible rule, how to keep time well'. (p.80) "Take a bullet, or any round piece, of what weighty thing you please, to the weight of half a pound, or a pound (more or less) and fasten it, to the end of a pack thread, or any other string, long enough to reach the top of the seiling of the room, in which you intend to practice. Then fasten the end of the string upon some hook, or nail, to the top of the seiling, so, as the weight may well-nigh touch the bottom of the floor; and when this is done, set it to work, after this manner, viz. Take the weight in your hand, and carry it to one side of the room, lifting it so high as you can reach, then let it fall out of your hand; and you shall observe, 'that this weight will keep an exact true motion of time, forwards and backwards, for an hour or two, together. And that although, at every return, it strikes a shorter compass, than it did the time before; yet it keeps the former exact proportion, (for length, or quantity of time). Infallibly, yea, when it makes so little a motion, as you can scarcely percieve it move, it the gives the self-same measure, (for quntity) as it did at first: The which is a pretty strange thing, yet most certain, and easily proved, by any." So here is an upside down metronome. Does it really work and has anyone tried it? -- Staying with Mace, Stewart kindly quoted: "[Beginners must learn strict time; but] when we come to be Masters, so that we can command all manner of Time, at our own Pleasures; we Then take Liberty, (and very often, for Humour [i.e. "mood", not "wit"], and good Adornment-sake, in certain Places), to Break Time; sometimes Faster, and sometimes Slower, as we perceive, the Nature of the Thing Requires." I used the word 'humour' when the Karamazov debate raged on. It would seem that some interpreted it for 'funny' as in 'side-splitting gag'. It was used in the old sense. - I am sure it has been discussed before (before I joined the list) but the speed of a galliard has croppped up. Again from Stewart... In his latest Dowland CD, Nigel North includes Melancholy Galliard. He plays this slower than other galliards on the CD, understandably because of the title. I tried to measure with a metronome what the difference in speed is between the galliards. With the faster ones, it was possible to come up with an approximate figure, but it was impossible to measure Melancholy Galliard, because the piece kept changing speed. The word "Melancholy" might well suggest slowness, but the word "galliard" should suggest a dance rhythm, however slow that may be. Whilst I have not yet heard NN's recording, I have come to terms with galliards by playing them as if dancers were with me - keeping a regularity of beat whilst watching out for their physical capabilites, i.e. drawing of breath, repositioning of posture. And some do suit a slower approach according to their 'humour'. Mace is so detailed that contradictions are bound to occur. He describes the galliard on p.129 as "Lessons of 2, or 3 strains, but are performed in a slow, and large triple-time; and (commonly) grave and sober." By 1676 I'm sure galliards were tired, old-fashioned affairs. To describe the playing of a galliard thus, flies in the face of the 16th century style when it was a lively show off piece - almost a virility test. My points here are twofold. Firstly, is Mace describing the English music scene of 1676, hitherto pounded by decades of draconian restrictions on music-making? Or might his work be ground-breaking, laying down rules for the future of English music-making? I suspect the former. We might look to Mace as the yardstick to all things lute-ish but I feel he has merely captured (albeit in a highly scholarly manner) a time capsule of the English music scene. (Do viol players look to him with the same intensity?). I know he frequently mentions the 'French style' but I can't help thinking that by 1676, Sanz's guitar book had been out for two years, Corbetta was all the rage in France and a few years later so was de Visee. The English have never been quick to grasp the latest fashions and styles, so to my second point - how much consideration should we give to interpreting different a country's dance styles? There is a danger here of sweeping generalisations and stereotypics. Should all Italian dances be played in a racy and passionate manner? Should all French dances be played in a light and airy manner. Should an Englishman play a galliard 'grave and sober' because Mace says so? Should all preludes be played in the same manner or might a certain country's style suggest a more rhapsodic approach than another's - or should personal preference prevail? As historically-aware Europeans, we will have our own cultural baggage/influences to deal with. As an English-born Italian I often find myself pulled from one culture to another. I'd be intere
[LUTE] Ray Nurse interview
Once again I would like to appeal to readers of the lute list to help transcribe an interview I've done, this one is with Ray Nurse. This will be featured in the next (?) LSA Quarterly and precedes his appearance at the summer workshop in Cleveland next summer delivering the O'Brien lectures as a kind of introduction to those not familiar with him. I can divide up the audio and send them out as mp3s. I'm still quite busy finishing up the school year here so the help will be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance to any willing to help. cheers, Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Pittoni's theorbo
Martyn Hodgson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 09:51:28 + (GMT) From: Martyn Hodgson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Pittoni's theorbo? To: Jerzy Zak <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Lute Net Thank you Jerzy. I take it you're referring to the hypothesis that the occasional leap in a scalic passage played on the 2nd and 3rd course of a double reentrant theorbo (say, as found in Pittoni 1669, eg last bar page 43 in da Chiesa volume) might possibly suggest there could have been octave stringing on the 2nd course. Pttoni writes for a theorbo in A. As you'll probably know, this was discussed some time ago (see archives) and no concencus seemed to emerge as to wether one just accepted this whenever it occurred or wether he did indeed employ a high octave on the 2nd (or some other device? eg putting a low octave on the 3rd!). You'll not be surprised that I fall into the first camp and my and others views will be found in the archives. But in short, as with similar 'discontinuities' in much baroque guitar music, I believe that the 'Old Ones' weren't over concerned about these occasional leaps (indeed, contemporary music for other instruments, eg Corelli, sometimes employs wide leaps as a compositional effect). The important thing for me (and this is, of course, subjective) is that there is a clear sense of the melodic and of the bass line and I find that with the firmer thumb stroke on the bass line and/or allied with the continuo Pittoni calls for (organo or clavicembalo) there is no real sense of any strange harmonic inversion. The bar on page 43 also illustrates another problem: if one accepts an octave on the 2nd, where does it all end? - since here the scalic passage, both ascending and descending, crosses all three top courses: there has to be a discontinuity somewhere; wether it be between the 2nd and 3rd or 1st and 2nd. Note also that at the beginning of this bar he completes the previous ascending phrase on the same course (3rd at fret 7) and then plays the same note on course 2 (fret1) to start the next short phrase. This, I suggest, shows he made a concious choice to start the next phrase at the lower octave - in short double reentrant. Personally, I rather like the octave leap at the end of the bar MH Jerzy Zak <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Martyn, All this is very persuasive, but what about the story of a double re- entrant instrument with double strings and the second course in octaves, in G or A? >From my sketchy calculations it appeares it must be an instrument of about 74 cm (stopped), considering on one side the breaking point of the high octave of the second (the _e'_) and the musical quality of the 6th (or 7th) course. As a theorbo it's a toy instrument, useless (?), but in therms of say a baroque d-m lute, with which it shares the tessitura, it is a huge one. In this case such a theorbo would have the 5th and the 6th (+ the 7th?) in octaves as well. Someone said that already. Gratefull for comments, Jurek __ On 2008-02-03, at 10:50, Martyn Hodgson wrote: > > Thanks for this; I'd be grateful for a fuller response to cover > all the points in my previous email to you. Nevertheless I'll > respond to this one below: > > INFORMATION > > I now see from your mention of my guitar stringing email that you > seem to equate 'information' solely with figures whereas I also > include other things such as tunings, examples of solo music, etc > which you do not count as information - we'll bear this in mind. > > BOB SPENCER'S & LYNDA SAYCE'S PAPERS > > In fact, Bob Spencer gave examples of large double reentrant > theorbos in A and G (with string lengths around 89 and 91cm - the > same ones I gave details earlier). He also cites Mace on tuning of > single and double theorbos in G and A and says that large theorbos > need the two highest courses down the octave and not just the first > (ie smaller theorbos just had the first course on actave down p. 412). > > Similarly, Lynda Sayce does in fact provide much information > including sizes of some large extant theorbos. > > TALBOT MS > > Talbot fortunately gives more than the minimum number of > dimensions and it is quite possible to recreate the instrument > based on what he gives at a string length of between 88/91cm (as > Michael Prynne and later others) without making unecessary > assumptions as David did (I'm told it's mostly to do with > measurements of body to body/neck joint or to the end of the tongue > and not by excluding the rose diameter). > > David doesn't mention reentrant tuning type (Talbot gives double > reentrant in A for his measured instrument) and I would surprised > if Lynda Sayce doesn't tune her 78cm English theorbo as single > reentrant - but you'll need to ask her. Incidentally, 78cm seems > an ideal size for a single reentrant theorbo - mine is 76cm which I > now feel is marginally
[LUTE] Pittoni's theorbo?
Thank you Jerzy. I take it you're referring to the hypothesis that the occasional leap in a scalic passage played on the 2nd and 3rd course of a double reentrant theorbo (say, as found in Pittoni 1669, eg last bar page 43 in da Chiesa volume) might possibly suggest there could have been octave stringing on the 2nd course. Pttoni writes for a theorbo in A. As you'll probably know, this was discussed some time ago (see archives) and no concencus seemed to emerge as to wether one just accepted this whenever it occurred or wether he did indeed employ a high octave on the 2nd (or some other device? eg putting a low octave on the 3rd!). You'll not be surprised that I fall into the first camp and my and others views will be found in the archives. But in short, as with similar 'discontinuities' in much baroque guitar music, I believe that the 'Old Ones' weren't over concerned about these occasional leaps (indeed, contemporary music for other instruments, eg Corelli, sometimes employs wide leaps as a compositional effect). The important thing for me (and this is, of course, subjective) is that there is a clear sense of the melodic and of the bass line and I find that with the firmer thumb stroke on the bass line and/or allied with the continuo Pittoni calls for (organo or clavicembalo) there is no real sense of any strange harmonic inversion. The bar on page 43 also illustrates another problem: if one accepts an octave on the 2nd, where does it all end? - since here the scalic passage, both ascending and descending, crosses all three top courses: there has to be a discontinuity somewhere; wether it be between the 2nd and 3rd or 1st and 2nd. Note also that at the beginning of this bar he completes the previous ascending phrase on the same course (3rd at fret 7) and then plays the same note on course 2 (fret1) to start the next short phrase. This, I suggest, shows he made a concious choice to start the next phrase at the lower octave - in short double reentrant. Personally, I rather like the octave leap at the end of the bar MH Jerzy Zak <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Martyn, All this is very persuasive, but what about the story of a double re- entrant instrument with double strings and the second course in octaves, in G or A? >From my sketchy calculations it appeares it must be an instrument of about 74 cm (stopped), considering on one side the breaking point of the high octave of the second (the _e'_) and the musical quality of the 6th (or 7th) course. As a theorbo it's a toy instrument, useless (?), but in therms of say a baroque d-m lute, with which it shares the tessitura, it is a huge one. In this case such a theorbo would have the 5th and the 6th (+ the 7th?) in octaves as well. Someone said that already. Gratefull for comments, Jurek __ On 2008-02-03, at 10:50, Martyn Hodgson wrote: > > Thanks for this; I'd be grateful for a fuller response to cover > all the points in my previous email to you. Nevertheless I'll > respond to this one below: > > INFORMATION > > I now see from your mention of my guitar stringing email that you > seem to equate 'information' solely with figures whereas I also > include other things such as tunings, examples of solo music, etc > which you do not count as information - we'll bear this in mind. > > BOB SPENCER'S & LYNDA SAYCE'S PAPERS > > In fact, Bob Spencer gave examples of large double reentrant > theorbos in A and G (with string lengths around 89 and 91cm - the > same ones I gave details earlier). He also cites Mace on tuning of > single and double theorbos in G and A and says that large theorbos > need the two highest courses down the octave and not just the first > (ie smaller theorbos just had the first course on actave down p. 412). > > Similarly, Lynda Sayce does in fact provide much information > including sizes of some large extant theorbos. > > TALBOT MS > > Talbot fortunately gives more than the minimum number of > dimensions and it is quite possible to recreate the instrument > based on what he gives at a string length of between 88/91cm (as > Michael Prynne and later others) without making unecessary > assumptions as David did (I'm told it's mostly to do with > measurements of body to body/neck joint or to the end of the tongue > and not by excluding the rose diameter). > > David doesn't mention reentrant tuning type (Talbot gives double > reentrant in A for his measured instrument) and I would surprised > if Lynda Sayce doesn't tune her 78cm English theorbo as single > reentrant - but you'll need to ask her. Incidentally, 78cm seems > an ideal size for a single reentrant theorbo - mine is 76cm which I > now feel is marginally too small. > > EVIDENCE > > In short, the evidence I gave still stands and, little as it is, > is indeed overwhelming (100%). I still await David Tayler's or your > own evidence that small theorboes (say
[LUTE] Re: the sign for 'c'
-Original Message-
From: "Mathias Rösel" [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2008 1:27 PM
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: the sign for 'c'
>Lower case character c was indeed replaced by the Greek lower case character
>gamma,
?
Doesn't the "r" ("c") look like a (small) uppercase Greek gamma?
Otherwise all mathematicians in the world have no idea how a gamma looks like :)
>In the same way, the lower case character e was replaced by the Greek lower
>case character phi, in French baroque lute tablatures.
And in Renaissance tablature the "e" often looks like an epsilon.
Best wishes,
Rainer aus dem Spring
IS department, development
Tel.: +49 211-5296-355
Fax.: +49 211-5296-405
SMTP: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
CONFIDENTIALITY DISCLAIMER
***
The information in this email and in any attachments is confidential and may be
privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please destroy this
message, delete any copies held on your systems and notify the sender
immediately. You should not retain, copy or use this email for any purpose
outside of any NDA currently existing between Toshiba Electronics Europe GmbH
and yourselves.
Toshiba Electronics Europe GmbH
Hansaallee 181 - 40549 Düsseldorf
Handelsregister Düsseldorf HRB 22487
Geschäftsführer: Ryoichi Shikama
Amtsgericht Düsseldorf
To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
