[BAROQUE-LUTE] Mercure
Hi, I'm curious about that french lutenist from the XVII, Mercure. There is a beutiful sarabande in the MS Milleran, without name, and the same is included in the Balcarres MS. I know, the french CNRS published his work, but I don't have the book. Thank you for your help, saludos from Barcelona, Manolo Laguillo -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: different-sized lutes
Dear Anthony and All, Just to fill in the missing details: The first lute (currently tuned in e', though it has been in f') is my no.2, made in 1982. It has a 13-rib yew back and a longish, almost Maler shape - not based on any particular model. The rose is quite small, which we would expect would favour the bass. The 5th course is a pistoy, the 6th Stoppani. The 4th course in in unison. The second lute (in a') is my no.3, made in 1983 (it didn't take a year to make, by the way, just nine days). Again it's a relatively long thin shape (photos of it as no.1 in the 6c section of my catalogue), 11 ribs of plum. The 5th and 6th courses are Venice strings. Octaves on 4-6. The third lute (in g') is my no.4, made in 1985. It's a Gerle, with a plum back. String types as for the first lute, octaves on 4-6. I think the main point of interest in this comparison is simply that lutes of different sizes and pitches sound different (and feel different, by the way) and it would be nice if there were more variety in the sizes which people play - there's a whole world of different sounds out there which could enrich our music if only we weren't so wedded to the idea that lutes have to be 60cm, in G at modern pitch. It has been fashionable to use the smaller lutes for Dalza, etc, but it can be revealing to try non-obvious combinations - solemn fantasias on little lutes or fast dances on big lutes. I'm game to take suggestions, by the way Best wishes, Martin Anthony Hind wrote: Martin Beautifully played as before, and the recordings are very good. It is an excellent idea to make this systematic string length comparison. I am just wondering, however, whether the lutes are copies of the same model, and whether there is much difference in stringing. I know of course, that even if they were exactly the same string length, model and with the same stringing there still could be a variation. Nevertheless, my question does not alter my feeling that this is a very interesting way of doing things. Can we look forward, now, to comparisons of different models with identical string lengths? Best regards Anthony Le 16 févr. 08 à 21:45, Martin Shepherd a écrit : Dear All, As previously threatened, a comparison of three different-sized lutes (e' at 67.3cm, a' at 53.5cm and g' at 60cm) at: http://www.luteshop.co.uk/02fm04lutecomprvb.mp3 Sorry the server doesn't seem to have updated the recordings page yet, but if you click on this link you should get the soundfile. Best wishes, Martin To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: different-sized lutes
On 17/02/2008, Martin Shepherd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The second lute (in a') is my no.3, made in 1983 (it didn't take a year to make, by the way, just nine days). Nine days?! Rob -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: different-sized lutes
I was amazed myself, which is why I remember that it was nine days. It took another couple of weeks to varnish it. I can't make lutes that quickly any more, alas. Martin Rob MacKillop wrote: On 17/02/2008, Martin Shepherd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The second lute (in a') is my no.3, made in 1983 (it didn't take a year to make, by the way, just nine days). Nine days?! Rob -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: different-sized lutes
Shepherd's Nine Day Wonder? On Feb 17, 2008, at 11:48 AM, Martin Shepherd wrote: I was amazed myself, which is why I remember that it was nine days. It took another couple of weeks to varnish it. I can't make lutes that quickly any more, alas. Martin Rob MacKillop wrote: On 17/02/2008, Martin Shepherd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The second lute (in a') is my no.3, made in 1983 (it didn't take a year to make, by the way, just nine days). Nine days?! Rob -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Moulinie
Rob MacKillop wrote: Timo Peedu has been at it again...this time he has tabulated the wonderful Airs de Cour for voice and guitar by Etienne Moulinie. This 1629 publication contains 12 songs with guitar accompaniment: one dialogue, 5 Italian songs, 5 Spanish songs and one Air Gascon. This is a major publication and is available entirely free from this page www.rmguitar.info/scores.htm - scroll down to find Timo's considerable library of free scores. Rob Thanks to Timo. Just looking at it quickly I couldn't see an explanation of the asterisk on the some chords on the fifth course. Stuart -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: different-sized lutes
On Feb 17, 2008, at 6:46 PM, Martin Shepherd wrote: it can be revealing to try non-obvious combinations - solemn fantasias on little lutes or fast dances on big lutes. It takes me a long time to get a piece under my fingers. I've found that fingerings that I thought were unwieldy on my G lute actually worked after getting used to them on the smaller A lute. If I try to do them in the first stages of learning on the G they take tremendous effort, but once I've learned the piece, I can relax into them. I'm not sure if I've articulated what I mean here. Anyone else? Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: different-sized lutes
- Original Message - From: Ed Durbrow [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: LuteNet list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2008 7:09 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: different-sized lutes Exactly how I feel. It takes me a while to get used to a piece. I feel like I work very hard when I'm learning it (a lot of tension or stress in the hands) but once I've learned it I relax into it, like you said. Jim Parker Ed Durbrow wrote: It takes me a long time to get a piece under my fingers. I've found that fingerings that I thought were unwieldy on my G lute actually worked after getting used to them on the smaller A lute. If I try to do them in the first stages of learning on the G they take tremendous effort, but once I've learned the piece, I can relax into them. I'm not sure if I've articulated what I mean here. Anyone else? Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Actus Tragicus
Dear Nigel, Pretend you're playing a lute in G, and it will come out at the right pitch. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. - Original Message - From: Nigel Solomon [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 2:46 PM Subject: [LUTE] Actus Tragicus I have been asked to play theorbo accompaniment in Bach's Actus Tragicus cantata. The performance will be in F rather than Eb (for the recorders). Does anybody have a score of the work in F with the figured bass? Thanks Nigel -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: different-sized lutes
Dear Martin Thank you for the additional details. It is a very interesting experience and I agree with you, the more timbral variety the better. When we think how many lutes must have been lost, and how few of the ones that have survived are now copied, it seems we are unnecessarily reducing our tonal palette. Nevertheless, I admire those like Sterling Price who have the courage to tackle a 76 cm Edlinger, and I just stand in awe at the 82 cm model. Your recording is very convincing. While all three lutes sound good (and I do like the Gerle model), the longer string length seems to have more expressive capability, as Jacob Heringman once told me. He also added that the hand quickly becomes used to the longer stretch. Having heard his Sienna recording, I was sorely tempted by a longer string length lute, such as a 70c 6C Warwick, or a 67cm 7C Venere C36; but in the end I played safe, and went for the ubiquitous (if excellent) 60 cm 7c Gerle, which I also heard on that recording. If you can only really afford one Renaissance lute it takes some courage to go for one of those big models, and what I did as an amateur does not really matter; but it would be excellent to see more performers specializing sufficiently to investigate more tonal variation, with differing string lengths and less well known models, as Jacob Heringman did in the Sienna, and Martin has done, here. I am really enjoying your postings, Martin. Best regards Anthony Le 17 févr. 08 à 10:46, Martin Shepherd a écrit : Dear Anthony and All, Just to fill in the missing details: The first lute (currently tuned in e', though it has been in f') is my no.2, made in 1982. It has a 13-rib yew back and a longish, almost Maler shape - not based on any particular model. The rose is quite small, which we would expect would favour the bass. The 5th course is a pistoy, the 6th Stoppani. The 4th course in in unison. The second lute (in a') is my no.3, made in 1983 (it didn't take a year to make, by the way, just nine days). Again it's a relatively long thin shape (photos of it as no.1 in the 6c section of my catalogue), 11 ribs of plum. The 5th and 6th courses are Venice strings. Octaves on 4-6. The third lute (in g') is my no.4, made in 1985. It's a Gerle, with a plum back. String types as for the first lute, octaves on 4-6. I think the main point of interest in this comparison is simply that lutes of different sizes and pitches sound different (and feel different, by the way) and it would be nice if there were more variety in the sizes which people play - there's a whole world of different sounds out there which could enrich our music if only we weren't so wedded to the idea that lutes have to be 60cm, in G at modern pitch. It has been fashionable to use the smaller lutes for Dalza, etc, but it can be revealing to try non-obvious combinations - solemn fantasias on little lutes or fast dances on big lutes. I'm game to take suggestions, by the way Best wishes, Martin Anthony Hind wrote: Martin Beautifully played as before, and the recordings are very good. It is an excellent idea to make this systematic string length comparison. I am just wondering, however, whether the lutes are copies of the same model, and whether there is much difference in stringing. I know of course, that even if they were exactly the same string length, model and with the same stringing there still could be a variation. Nevertheless, my question does not alter my feeling that this is a very interesting way of doing things. Can we look forward, now, to comparisons of different models with identical string lengths? Best regards Anthony Le 16 févr. 08 à 21:45, Martin Shepherd a écrit : Dear All, As previously threatened, a comparison of three different-sized lutes (e' at 67.3cm, a' at 53.5cm and g' at 60cm) at: http://www.luteshop.co.uk/02fm04lutecomprvb.mp3 Sorry the server doesn't seem to have updated the recordings page yet, but if you click on this link you should get the soundfile. Best wishes, Martin To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] vibrato
Some fretted-instrument players produce vibrato by wobbling the finger along the string (ie, towards the nut, towards the bridge, and then back toward the nut). Do lutes vary in their responsiveness to this? In other words, given the same finger movement, might one lute produce a strong vibrato and another lute barely enough vibrato to hear? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Mercure
Hei! I'm curious about that french lutenist from the XVII, Mercure. There is a beutiful sarabande in the MS Milleran, without name, and the same is included in the Balcarres MS. I know, the french CNRS published his work, but I don't have the book. There are at least two Mercures, one, often callen Mercure d'Orleans from the renaissance lute repertoire - you will find quite a lot pieces by him in the Schele Ms., of which you own a beautiful facsimile, I believe ;-) , and then the later, baroque Mercure. According to Mary Burwell's tutor he lived for a long time in England. If I am not mistaken, John/Jean Mercure was appointed lutenist at Charles' court when Robert Dowland died in 1641. Are To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: vibrato
If you think of the vibrato as a trill, these ornaments sound and play not only very differently on different lutes, but also vary with the strings and tensions used. My very thin top lutes generally play the trill and vibrato better, but I'm sure the answer has to do with bridge mass and a number of other factors. I'm sure thicker topped lutes could play these ornaments as well, I just haven't seen it in practice as much. The energy generated is pretty small, so the lute has to be responsive. My experience is also that gut strings produce markedly better vibrato and trills than other strings, unless you use very heavy single strings (more of a modern sound). Lastly, the spacing between the unison pairs slightly affects the sound. I use a kind of vibrato forward motion, like a single trill, to pull the fifth in tune on the scond fret. This allows the second fret to be slightly lower. When using vibrato, my rule is rare and bare, eg, not often and as more of an impression of sound than a wobble. That's the way I like it in voice as well, but there are ceratinly those of the wobble and gobble camp. dt At 12:08 PM 2/17/2008, you wrote: Some fretted-instrument players produce vibrato by wobbling the finger along the string (ie, towards the nut, towards the bridge, and then back toward the nut). Do lutes vary in their responsiveness to this? In other words, given the same finger movement, might one lute produce a strong vibrato and another lute barely enough vibrato to hear? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Spinacino colloquium
Sean, I was away for the week-end and coming home now (sunaday evening French time) I find your message about the Spinaciono coloquium in Tours, last December. I wasn't there unfortunately, but a friend who attended the colloquium did a nice report on the French lute list. Alas, for you, it's in French, but that could be a good opportunity to brush up you old school French ;-)) . If you rellay can't find your way arounf, I'll try ro post a translation in a week's time when I come back from a week's well served holidays on the other side of the Mediterranean ! It's only a report, but quite worth reading. All the best, Jean-Marie Here's the text in question written by Jean-Paul Bazin, an excellent French mandora, mandolino etc. player : Sabine Meine (Institut allemand à Rome) présentait une communication sur les frottoles chez Spinacino, titre un peu provocateur puisque s¹il est un des recueils de Petrucci tourné vers la musique franco-flamande, c¹est bien celui-là ! En fait de titres italiens, il n¹y a que des pièces de ceux-ci (9 sur 81 au total) transcrites dans les recueils de 1507... Elle notait aussi que le contraste entre le goût courtisan et le vulgaire de la frottole n¹apparaissait pas chez Dalza, que la volubilité littéraire faisait plutôt place en musique à une sorte de répétition circulaire (besoin de variations, de diminutions ?) et à la question si un genre vocal peut résister à la tablature, elle concluait qu¹il fallait connaître l¹original vocal pour goûter la version pour luth. Tim Crawford (Goldsmith University London) parlait, lui, de la musique de danse pour luth vers 1500, notamment autour du ms. London add. 31389, qui comme le ms. Thibault, ne contient pas d¹indications de rythmes. Une pavana svizzera contenue dans ce manuscrit est 4 fois plus longue qu¹une pavane de Dalza, et son saltarello 2 fois plus long. La pavana ala ferrarese de Jo. Antonio da Bergamo, du même manuscrit, est de la forme ABCBCBDBDE, alors que celle de Dalza a pour structure : AABBCAAA BCAB, qu¹est-ce donc que la pavane à la Ferraraise ??? Il a également présenté des manuscrits conservés à Munich, dont un (le 1511B) contient le même type de répertoire de danses qu¹un manuscrit de clavecin conservé à Venise. Gianluigi Bello a présenté une proposition intéressante d¹interprétation des 22 à 27 pièces de Spinacino également contenues dans les publications précédentes de Petrucci : les jouer ensemble, avec luth + instruments aux différentes voix, ce qui s¹est déjà fait sporadiquement sur quelques enregistrements, mais qui en fait semble fonctionner systématiquement (démonstration audio-visuelle sur Finale à l¹appui !) à l¹exception de menus problèmes de ficta à régler ponctuellement. Les diminutions du luth sont souvent des ponts pendant des périodes de repos des voix, parfois le luth complète l¹harmonie, en tous cas il est toujours audible, et de manière extrêmement idiomatique. Conclusion (d¹un non-luthiste) : Spinacino a beaucoup plus de force joué en complément que seul ! Les résultats de ses recherches sont à écouter sur le CD Marguerit chez ³E Lucevan Le Stelle² http://www.elucevanlestelle.com/ de Marco Mencoboni, petit producteur italien indépendant (preneur de son et organiste, personnalité à voir aussi sur Youtube sous la rubrique Fossombrone, ville natale de Petrucci), enregistré par Emanuela Galli et Franco Pavan entre autres... Très sympathique personnage, et loin de moi l¹idée de vouloir lui faire de la pub ;-) Vladimir Ivanoff a réexhumé sa thèse (début des années 1980 !) pour nous parler en détail des 6 duos de Spinacino, avec transparents d¹époque à l¹appui (une présentation à l¹ordinateur eût été beaucoup trop moderne !). Il considère que même si ces duos sont destinés aux amateurs (publications), ils sont le fait d¹un professionnel aguerri. Spinacino représente selon lui les derniers feux d¹une pratique qui semble avoir commencé à disparaître dans les années 1480-1500 (selon les occurrences iconographiques). Agricola conseille d¹ailleurs aux luthistes (en 1528) de prendre exemple sur les organistes pour orner, preuve sans doute que cet art très germanique du duo de luths avait disparu d¹Allemagne à cette époque... Tout comme les pièces du livre de Buxheim, les duos de Spinacino ne doivent selon lui pas être joués tel quels, mais doivent plutôt servir d¹exemple de traitement de pièces vocales. Keith Polk (retraité de l'University of New Hampshire !) a présenté une vue très fine du luth en Italie à la fin du 15e siècle, divisant son propos entre luthistes italiens et luthistes étrangers, luthistes professionnels et luthistes amateurs, luthistes en solo ou en ensemble (avec le passage du plectre aux doigts, et l¹effet produit sur le public par Paumann jouant polyphoniquement lors de son passage en Italie en 1470), luthistes de tradition ou d¹innovation, avec le rôle novateur de la cour de Ferrare où exerçait Pietrobono, avec le compositeur de Johanne Martini, vite rejoint dans
[LUTE] Re: Spinacino colloquium
Too many typing mistakes, too much hurry, sorry about that, Sean ! Here's the corrected intro to the text : Sean, I was away for the week-end and coming home now (Sunday evening French time) I find your message about the Spinacino colloquium in Tours, last December. I wasn't there unfortunately, but a friend who attended the colloquium did a nice report on the French lute list. Alas, for you, it's in French, but that could be a good opportunity to brush up your old school French ;-)) . If you really can't find your way around, I'll try to post a translation in a week's time, when I come back from a week's well deserved holidays on the other side of the Mediterranean ! It's only a report, but well worth reading. All the best, Jean-Marie Expéditeur original:Jean-Marie Poirier Adresse expéditeur original: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sean, I was away for the week-end and coming home now (sunaday evening French time) I find your message about the Spinaciono coloquium in Tours, last December. I wasn't there unfortunately, but a friend who attended the colloquium did a nice report on the French lute list. Alas, for you, it's in French, but that could be a good opportunity to brush up you old school French ;-)) . If you rellay can't find your way arounf, I'll try ro post a translation in a week's time when I come back from a week's well served holidays on the other side of the Mediterranean ! It's only a report, but quite worth reading. All the best, Jean-Marie Jean-Marie Poirier [EMAIL PROTECTED] 17-02-2008 N ¶è®ß¶¬+-±ç¥Ëbú+«b¢vÛiÿü0ÁË j»f¢ëayÛ¿Á·?ë^iÙ¢ø§uìa¶i
[LUTE] Re: Spinacino colloquium
Thanks, Jean-Marie, this is much appreciated! I sometimes think FS is the lutiest of the bunch and here we've been for 30 years, terrified of him! Sean On Feb 17, 2008, at 1:30 PM, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote: Too many typing mistakes, too much hurry, sorry about that, Sean ! Here's the corrected intro to the text : Sean, I was away for the week-end and coming home now (Sunday evening French time) I find your message about the Spinacino colloquium in Tours, last December. I wasn't there unfortunately, but a friend who attended the colloquium did a nice report on the French lute list. Alas, for you, it's in French, but that could be a good opportunity to brush up your old school French ;-)) . If you really can't find your way around, I'll try to post a translation in a week's time, when I come back from a week's well deserved holidays on the other side of the Mediterranean ! It's only a report, but well worth reading. All the best, Jean-Marie Expéditeur original:Jean-Marie Poirier Adresse expéditeur original: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sean, I was away for the week-end and coming home now (sunaday evening French time) I find your message about the Spinaciono coloquium in Tours, last December. I wasn't there unfortunately, but a friend who attended the colloquium did a nice report on the French lute list. Alas, for you, it's in French, but that could be a good opportunity to brush up you old school French ;-)) . If you rellay can't find your way arounf, I'll try ro post a translation in a week's time when I come back from a week's well served holidays on the other side of the Mediterranean ! It's only a report, but quite worth reading. All the best, Jean-Marie Jean-Marie Poirier [EMAIL PROTECTED] 17-02-2008 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
