[LUTE] Re: Piccinini's rolls
Well Ron you've provoked me into spending a thoroughly enjoyable hour playing through my Piccinini, which I haven't spent nearly enough time with since I got my archlute. Thank you! While it's certainly true that weak beat/index finger dots were sprinkled around so automatically and frequently as to function at least as well for keeping the accents of the passagi straight and aid tab/music reading, in the Piccinini I think he really was thumb-index picking his way all the way down in that no. XX Toccata. Dots in the bass down into the diapasons occur like that in only one other piece that I could find- the Partita Variate for chitarrone, 5th measure from the end. What makes p-i plausible in these two pieces is the nature of the run: by course, the notes descend 7 6. 8 7. 9 8. X 9. V in the Partita and in the Toccata go down two more to the 12th. In all the other pieces where the bass line is just linear, no skipping, there are no dots. Piccinini seems very picky about his his signs- he throws in those slurs exactly where he wants them, too. I wish I could have seen more of those fingerstyle guitarists (let alone studying with them!)- I've only seen Doc Watson and a few others, but what an experience. Classical guitar training, in some cases, causes more RH problems than benefits when taking up the lute. Thanks also for the Barto tip- I should have that newsletter. Daniel and all: I am not convinced those single dots always indicated use of the right-hand index finger. From the early prints of Spinacino on, I think the alternating dots were just a way of keeping track of strong-weak beats in a long run of tablature ciphers. We have seen that ornamentation signs meant different things to different printers and copyists, it should come as no surprise that fingering dots served different functions. Lute News Number 81 (April 2007) contains a transcription of a talk given by Bob Barto on the use of the right-hand ring finger in the music of Weiss. He seems to have drawn no conclusions but offers several interesting ideas. On the subject of fingerstyle guitarists, Doc Watson, Merle Travis, Etta Baker, John Jackson and doubtless others all played (or in the case of Doc, still play) with thumb and index finger. They seemed to do OK without embracing the modern classical guitar technique of using the ring finger. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Piccinini's rolls
Compare Cups Burger's and Peachy Ninny's arpeggio patterns to later 17th century separee practice! Take M. Gally Lays's and Junnon Shelly's editions into account (their sprezzature). Kinda common practice, no? Mathias Daniel Winheld [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: Well Ron you've provoked me into spending a thoroughly enjoyable hour playing through my Piccinini, which I haven't spent nearly enough time with since I got my archlute. Thank you! While it's certainly true that weak beat/index finger dots were sprinkled around so automatically and frequently as to function at least as well for keeping the accents of the passagi straight and aid tab/music reading, in the Piccinini I think he really was thumb-index picking his way all the way down in that no. XX Toccata. Dots in the bass down into the diapasons occur like that in only one other piece that I could find- the Partita Variate for chitarrone, 5th measure from the end. What makes p-i plausible in these two pieces is the nature of the run: by course, the notes descend 7 6. 8 7. 9 8. X 9. V in the Partita and in the Toccata go down two more to the 12th. In all the other pieces where the bass line is just linear, no skipping, there are no dots. Piccinini seems very picky about his his signs- he throws in those slurs exactly where he wants them, too. I wish I could have seen more of those fingerstyle guitarists (let alone studying with them!)- I've only seen Doc Watson and a few others, but what an experience. Classical guitar training, in some cases, causes more RH problems than benefits when taking up the lute. Thanks also for the Barto tip- I should have that newsletter. Daniel and all: I am not convinced those single dots always indicated use of the right-hand index finger. From the early prints of Spinacino on, I think the alternating dots were just a way of keeping track of strong-weak beats in a long run of tablature ciphers. We have seen that ornamentation signs meant different things to different printers and copyists, it should come as no surprise that fingering dots served different functions. Lute News Number 81 (April 2007) contains a transcription of a talk given by Bob Barto on the use of the right-hand ring finger in the music of Weiss. He seems to have drawn no conclusions but offers several interesting ideas. On the subject of fingerstyle guitarists, Doc Watson, Merle Travis, Etta Baker, John Jackson and doubtless others all played (or in the case of Doc, still play) with thumb and index finger. They seemed to do OK without embracing the modern classical guitar technique of using the ring finger. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Viele Grüße Mathias Rösel http://mathiasroesel.livejournal.com http://www.myspace.com/mathiasroesel http://de.geocities.com/mathiasroesel
[LUTE] Dowland's Lutes
Luthier, Martin Shepherd, has contributed a thought-provoking essay on Dowland's lutes (which also touches on string lengths, pitches, etc) to the John Dowland website. I'm sure Martin would be very happy to answer any questions you have after reading it. Please use this discussion group for your questions, so that we can all read the correspondence. Direct link: http://www.johndowland.co.uk/DowlandsLutes.htm Any navigation problems, let me know. The root address is: www.johndowland.co.uk Other contributions very welcome. A thousand thanks to Martin for his continued contributions to the site. A few other performers and researchers have promised material for later in the year. Rob MacKillop -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Barto videos
Daniel Shoskes has added quite a few Barto/Weiss/Reusner videos to the Vimeo site: http://www.vimeo.com/Francesco - as well as his own performances of Lauffensteiner. All well worth a look and a listen. There are now 136 lute and early guitar videos on the site. Rob MacKillop -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Dowland's Lutes
Luthier, Martin Shepherd, has contributed a thought-provoking essay on Dowland's lutes (which also touches on string lengths, pitches, etc) to the John Dowland website. I'm sure Martin would be very happy to answer any questions you have after reading it. Please use this discussion group for your questions, so that we can all read the correspondence. Direct link: http://www.johndowland.co.uk/DowlandsLutes.htm Thank you Martin, for a good read. Thank you Rob, for making it available. David David van Ooijen [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.davidvanooijen.nl To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Barto videos
Unfortunately I was too premature in adding Bab Barto's videos to the collected lute and early guitars page of the Vimeo site. We are still awaiting permission from the performer. I hope he grants it, because these are outstanding videos. In the meantime, I have removed them by request. Apologies, where apologies are needed. Rob -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Dowland's Lutes
Thank you Rob for the heads-up on Martin's timely reminder of just what lutes Dowland used- ESPECIALLY the 10 fret, 9-course w/ doubled 1st. This information has been readily available to all of us- luthiers, players, scholars, since 1958, when Schott Co. first re-published the Varietie in staff transcription tab facsimile. Ever since I got my copy, (unthinkable eons ago), a part of me has always been annoyed at the lack of 10 fret, 9 course, double-1st Late Dowland model lutes in builder's line ups (with 10 course option, as the French nation hath added one course the more). I suppose the lack of such actual lutes amongst the remaining historical specimens? Practically speaking, having once owned a lute (my first) that had 9 courses, having D still as the 8th course made fingering some bass notes possible (a 7th fret A in a Robert Johnson fantasy being the most potent example) which wouldn't be possible- for me- with 10 courses- but then anyone playing the lute parts in the Lachrimae will notice how much less re-tuning of the basses is required if 10 courses are available. Sometimes the 9th is at low C, sometimes up to D, and the 8th can be Eb, E, or D. So still the eternal question for the poor, out-of-time 21st century lute student- which damned lute model do I get THIS time? I also have always thought Dowland's explanation of the unison 6th course, and no implication that it applied to lower basses, perfectly clear- yet where else could the idea arise that unison 6ths were mainly an English phenomenon but from a sloppy reading of Dowland? Luthier, Martin Shepherd, has contributed a thought-provoking essay on Dowland's lutes (which also touches on string lengths, pitches, etc) to the John Dowland website. I'm sure Martin would be very happy to answer any questions you have after reading it. Please use this discussion group for your questions, so that we can all read the correspondence. Other contributions very welcome. A thousand thanks to Martin for his continued contributions to the site. A few other performers and researchers have promised material for later in the year. Rob MacKillop -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Dowland's Lutes
Dear Daniel, Thanks for your comments. I would just remind everyone that although the 10-fret, 9c lute may have been de rigueur by 1610, most of Dowland's solo music was composed before 1600, when such lutes were perhaps only just beginning to appear (Francisque's book of 1600, and Dowland's Lachrimae of 1604). One could make a very good case for an 8-fret, 7c lute for nearly all of Dowland's solo music. The reason lutemakers have not been making lutes with 10-fret necks is probably that everyone (until recently) has wanted a lute of about 60cm which can be tuned to G at modern pitch, and there are no historical lute bodies that small. That in itself is interesting, and suggests that longer string lengths were common. Lutes of about 67cm seem to have been very common, but those which survive with their original necks are still 8-fret lutes. If you really want a 10-fret neck you have to combine a relatively small body with a relatively long string length, and this takes you into territory where it is less easy to say that your lute is based on a historical original. Best wishes, Martin Daniel Winheld wrote: Thank you Rob for the heads-up on Martin's timely reminder of just what lutes Dowland used- ESPECIALLY the 10 fret, 9-course w/ doubled 1st. This information has been readily available to all of us- luthiers, players, scholars, since 1958, when Schott Co. first re-published the Varietie in staff transcription tab facsimile. Ever since I got my copy, (unthinkable eons ago), a part of me has always been annoyed at the lack of 10 fret, 9 course, double-1st Late Dowland model lutes in builder's line ups (with 10 course option, as the French nation hath added one course the more). I suppose the lack of such actual lutes amongst the remaining historical specimens? Practically speaking, having once owned a lute (my first) that had 9 courses, having D still as the 8th course made fingering some bass notes possible (a 7th fret A in a Robert Johnson fantasy being the most potent example) which wouldn't be possible- for me- with 10 courses- but then anyone playing the lute parts in the Lachrimae will notice how much less re-tuning of the basses is required if 10 courses are available. Sometimes the 9th is at low C, sometimes up to D, and the 8th can be Eb, E, or D. So still the eternal question for the poor, out-of-time 21st century lute student- which damned lute model do I get THIS time? I also have always thought Dowland's explanation of the unison 6th course, and no implication that it applied to lower basses, perfectly clear- yet where else could the idea arise that unison 6ths were mainly an English phenomenon but from a sloppy reading of Dowland? Luthier, Martin Shepherd, has contributed a thought-provoking essay on Dowland's lutes (which also touches on string lengths, pitches, etc) to the John Dowland website. I'm sure Martin would be very happy to answer any questions you have after reading it. Please use this discussion group for your questions, so that we can all read the correspondence. Other contributions very welcome. A thousand thanks to Martin for his continued contributions to the site. A few other performers and researchers have promised material for later in the year. Rob MacKillop To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Dowland's Lutes
Actually, we already have the Late Dowland Model Lute- it's disguised as an 11 course d-minor French Baroque lute. Knock off a course, maybe trim the neck slightly, reconfigure the bridge holes nut grooves and Viola! (viola da mano de Flanders). I have always hated the clunky look of nearly every builder's 10 course lute, and thought that if I wanted a 10 course custom built I would merely order one based on the 11 course model. I have been pleased to see that some 10 course lutes are now, in fact, built on the 11 course platform- and some can even be configured either way after purchase. The reason lutemakers have not been making lutes with 10-fret necks is probably that everyone (until recently) has wanted a lute of about 60cm which can be tuned to G at modern pitch, and there are no historical lute bodies that small. That in itself is interesting, and suggests that longer string lengths were common. Lutes of about 67cm seem to have been very common, but those which survive with their original necks are still 8-fret lutes. If you really want a 10-fret neck you have to combine a relatively small body with a relatively long string length, and this takes you into territory where it is less easy to say that your lute is based on a historical original. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: videos
On Jul 12, 2008, at 12:37 AM, David Tayler wrote: You can see the results here for comparison, with the caveat that this was a very dark room (noticeable grain): youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcRhaf1i59k vimeo http://www.vimeo.com/1318410 Note that this is the *exact* same upload file. Without going into graphic detail, a couple of things jump out. First, Vimeo is still much better. This is because it is native widescreen, not chopped up widescreen. Second, it is higher resolution Third, the sound is just better, real stereo. For what it's worth, I just tried the Vimeo site using Safari on a IMac G5 and it's unlistenable, the sound chopped up like the picket- fencing you get on a car FM radio. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Dowland's Lutes
Daniel wrote... I have always hated the clunky look of nearly every builder's 10 course lute, and thought that if I wanted a 10 course custom built I would merely order one based on the 11 course model. I have been pleased to see that some 10 course lutes are now, in fact, built on the 11 course platform- and some can even be configured either way after purchase. Just a reminder that the plans for a Hans Frei lute from the Lute Society enable the builder to make either a 10-course, or 11-course with treble-rider. Best Wishes Ron (UK) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Lord Willoughby's Welcome Home
Two of our excellent contributors to this discussion group, Martin Shepherd and Stuart McCoy, have recorded Lord Willoughby's Welcome Home for the Dowland site - a really excellent performance on two gut-strung lutes made by Martin. No.66a - http://www.johndowland.co.uk/mp3.htm I hope to record some pieces myself (on an 11c strung as a 10c - CF another discussion on this list) - but have two rather contrasting gigs coming up in a couple of weeks time. The first is with a jazz singer, with me on an archtop guitar, doing Gershwin, Kern, etc. Then two days later, my first full recital in almost 5 years, on lute, theorbo and baroque guitar. Wish me luck...feeling nervous already. Back to Dowland after that. Rob MacKillop -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] ISO Sylvain Bergeron
Hello all, Does anyone have Sylvain Bergeron's email address? Thanks in advance! Chris To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] More on lute songs
Hi everybody, Recently, working with a new singer on my English Lute songs program, I started to wonder why these songs do not have an introduction or an instrumental part in the middle or at the end. Were lutenists expected to improvise or to compose extra bits of music for performance? In case they didn't do it, are we suposed to do so? I don't recall hearing anybody (besides Edin Karamazov) doing so. For example, Anthony Rooley with Emma Kirkby presented these songs with no intro whatsoever. Any thoughts? -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
