[LUTE] Re: Lute sound / split sound
I've read it's the 20th century and german version of what we know as style brisé (just in case nobody else has already mentioned). Thomas - Original Message - From: David Tayler [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2008 4:58 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute sound / split sound I thought Spaetklang was when you can't keep the tempo. d At 02:08 AM 9/30/2008, you wrote: And Splatklang is when you don't quite manage to play that difficult chord P To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Temperament wondering...
i guess any one already have his favorite, and i want to discover my own... sssoo Any recommendation? i want it for my nice little 7c...but i might try something new with my guitar :-D thank you again Omer To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Temperament wondering...
Hello Omer I've been tackling this issue myself recently. I started by trying some historical instructions for fret placement (found on the The Lute Society of America Fret Placement Spreadsheet): http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/download/index.html I found, after a lot of trial and error, that Gerle's instructions led to more-or-less 1/6 comma, which is more-or-less what I wanted. An easier way of achieving 1/6 comma (and 1/4 comma) is very clearly explained on David Van Ooijen's site: http://home.planet.nl/~ooije006/david/writings/meantone_f.html Andrew On 2 Oct 2008, at 11:00, Omer katzir wrote: i guess any one already have his favorite, and i want to discover my own... sssoo Any recommendation? i want it for my nice little 7c...but i might try something new with my guitar :-D thank you again Omer -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Dowland know-how
I suppose this question has already been asked umpteen times, but here goes again: do we know how the ow in Dowland's name was pronounced? As in know or as in how? Thanks, Dennis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute sound / split sound
And spit-clang is when you got too much oomph to it, no? M. David Tayler [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: I thought Spaetklang was when you can't keep the tempo. d At 02:08 AM 9/30/2008, you wrote: And Splatklang is when you don't quite manage to play that difficult chord P 2008/9/30 Mathias Roesel [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: So, is Spaltklang the equivalent of other 20th century ideas about older music, such as terraced dynamics? Trying to strictly answer your question: No. The term is not an equivalent of ideas, not of other ideas, not of other 20th century ideas. Let alone terraced dynamics ;) Spaltklang does not exclusively bear on Early Music (older music), it is applied on modern music, too, e. g. some ensemble music by Stravinsky. My I suggest that we do not dance around this golden name. It's not worth it. It's just an attempt of a descriptive term. Mathias --- Mathias Roesel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: howard posner [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: So if I understand correctly, the answer to my question about who mentioned Spaltklang is that it was 20th-century German musicologists interpreting the intent of earlier musicians Yes 8) As it seems, Heinrich Besseler was the one to coin the term. I've never encountered an English term similar to Spaltklang. As results from discussions on other lists, spaltklang wasn't translated into English musicology. I was told that English spaking scholars would quote the German term, adding a short explanation. It seems to me that Harnoncourt has nearly the opposite opinion, writing that the baroque orchestra was like a baroque organ, with the sounds of the individual instruments designed to blend. Perhaps Mr Harnoncourt has changed his mind somewhere on his way? At any rate, that would be contrary to what he presented in his book Klangrede where he said that different colours and speaking positions in an orchestra (which is what qualifies as spaltklang) are, so to say, the salient points of baroque music. He contrasts the modern orchestra, in which the instruments are designed to stand out (consider, for example, the sharper tone of the modern flute, oboe and trumpet, in comparison to their baroque counterparts). Erm, are you talking about modern, i. e. romantic orchestras? I was under the impression that it's baroque instruments which stand out, as opposed to romantic instruments which are supposed to blend. BTW, what does MGG stand for? Musik in Geschichte und Gegenwart. It's a standard lexicon of music, comparable to the New Grove. -- Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute sound / split sound
Lemme try to clarify this. Split sound is when the sounds of different ensemble members do not blend, that's all. I think we can all agree by and large with the following: The medieval hofkapelle at the Burgundian court consisted of single musicians who would do their best to get heard distinctly (the lute being played with quills therefore). That's split sound (spaltklang). As opposed to that, renaissance musicians preferred to play ensemble music with families of instruments (flutes, viols, lutes) so as to make the music sound as though one big instrument was at work. That's not split sound, it's merging sound (schmelzklang). Musicians of broken consorts usually played as single members of their bands, trying to be heard as well as possible. Like in Burgundia, that is split sound. It's an integral part of baroque rhetorics of music (klangrede). Orchestras from the Twenty-Four Violins of the King onward started another development, viz. merging the sounds of several instruments of the same type, and blending the sounds of groups of instruments (wood wind, strings, brass etc), resulting in 19th century orchestra aesthetics (mischklang). Surviving lute music dates from the renaissance through rococo periods. The HIP lute was a solo instrument, an ensemble instrument, but never an orchestra instrument. So, one might argue that if lute players followed the general aesthetics of their respective era, renaissance lute players probably tried not to stand out when playing in ensemble, whereas later broken consort lutenists would try to stand out as much as possible. Which would explain why renaissance lutenists' propensity of playing near the rose, and the shift from 1600 onward to the bridge. Mathias thomas schall [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: I've read it's the 20th century and german version of what we know as style brisé (just in case nobody else has already mentioned). Thomas - Original Message - From: David Tayler [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2008 4:58 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute sound / split sound I thought Spaetklang was when you can't keep the tempo. d At 02:08 AM 9/30/2008, you wrote: And Splatklang is when you don't quite manage to play that difficult chord P To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tree Edition
Dear Gernot, I would suggest for another edition, why?? simply because some months ago I was in Lubeck for a concert and while I was there I called them for some music and they were just rude. Fortunatelly we have nice people such as Minkof or S.P.E.S and many others that they are happy to sell their products. My best wishes Henry. --- On Thu, 10/2/08, Gernot Hilger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Gernot Hilger [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [LUTE] Re: Tree Edition To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Thursday, October 2, 2008, 9:21 AM Try albertreyerman(at)kabelmail.de g On 02.10.2008, at 11:12, Juan Fco. Prieto wrote: Hi all: Excuse me, I'm trying for some days to communicate with Albert Reyerman, from Tree Edition, without success. His email [EMAIL PROTECTED] is bouncing and I need to order some material from his catalogue. If you know an alternative email address or if you, Mr. Reyerman, are reading this post, please contact me at [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thanks. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: Lute sound / split sound
Thanks Mathias, This subject is very interesting and you explained it very well. 2008/10/2 Mathias Roesel [EMAIL PROTECTED] Lemme try to clarify this. Split sound is when the sounds of different ensemble members do not blend, that's all. I think we can all agree by and large with the following: The medieval hofkapelle at the Burgundian court consisted of single musicians who would do their best to get heard distinctly (the lute being played with quills therefore). That's split sound (spaltklang). As opposed to that, renaissance musicians preferred to play ensemble music with families of instruments (flutes, viols, lutes) so as to make the music sound as though one big instrument was at work. That's not split sound, it's merging sound (schmelzklang). Musicians of broken consorts usually played as single members of their bands, trying to be heard as well as possible. Like in Burgundia, that is split sound. It's an integral part of baroque rhetorics of music (klangrede). Orchestras from the Twenty-Four Violins of the King onward started another development, viz. merging the sounds of several instruments of the same type, and blending the sounds of groups of instruments (wood wind, strings, brass etc), resulting in 19th century orchestra aesthetics (mischklang). Surviving lute music dates from the renaissance through rococo periods. The HIP lute was a solo instrument, an ensemble instrument, but never an orchestra instrument. So, one might argue that if lute players followed the general aesthetics of their respective era, renaissance lute players probably tried not to stand out when playing in ensemble, whereas later broken consort lutenists would try to stand out as much as possible. Which would explain why renaissance lutenists' propensity of playing near the rose, and the shift from 1600 onward to the bridge. Mathias -- References 1. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute sound/split sound
howard posner [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: The medieval hofkapelle at the Burgundian court consisted of single musicians who would do their best to get heard distinctly (the lute being played with quills therefore). That's split sound (spaltklang). But there's no evidence of such a sound ideal other than the interpretation of later musicologists, is there? Admittedly, there are no 15th century recordings available, as far as I know, but perhaps we may consider a) surviving written music and b) iconographic material as evidence. Pictures show single instruments (harps, fiddles, lutes, flutes), playing together with singers. Surviving ars nova music, when executed with instruments so distinct, leaves no chance to merge or blend. Only once you execute the music with families of instruments, e. g. lute ensemble, sounds blend. (Cf. Jon Banks, Music for Lute Consort c.1500, available from the Lute Society, see http://www.lutesoc.co.uk/DavidVanEdwards/pubpics/Lute%20trios%201.jpg ) Yet that's not what we see on related pictures. If other instruments are producing a treble-heavy sound, a lute player playing with a quill might just as well be trying to blend with them. How can he / she, playing his / her own part? Rhythm guitar players play with plectra today, but they rarely want to focus attention on their individual instrument. No such thing like rhythm lutes in medieval ensemble music, or baroque for that matter, as far as I can see. As opposed to that, renaissance musicians preferred to play ensemble music with families of instruments (flutes, viols, lutes) so as to make the music sound as though one big instrument was at work. That's not split sound, it's merging sound (schmelzklang). Musicians of broken consorts usually played as single members of their bands, trying to be heard as well as possible. Like in Burgundia, that is split sound. It's an integral part of baroque rhetorics of music (klangrede). Again, I think just the opposite is true. A viol player in a polyphonic consort needs to have his instrument and his line heard distinctly. The cittern player in a broken consort wants to blend with the pandora (and lute, if the lute isn't playing divisions). Again, how can he / she (cittern), playing his / her own part? Orchestral oboes and violins in unision, and bassoons and cellos, are combining into a blended sound, as are the continuo instruments. As I said, orchestras started another development, viz. merging the sounds of several instruments. Still in baroque orchestras it's all about distinct parts to be heard, speaking to each other, not glidingly changing sound colours of the whole sound body like in 19th and early 20th centuries orchestra music. But let's omit orchestras, the lute not being an orchestra instrument. Mathias Surviving lute music dates from the renaissance through rococo periods. The HIP lute was a solo instrument, an ensemble instrument, but never an orchestra instrument. So, one might argue that if lute players followed the general aesthetics of their respective era, renaissance lute players probably tried not to stand out when playing in ensemble, whereas later broken consort lutenists would try to stand out as much as possible. Which would explain why renaissance lutenists' propensity of playing near the rose, and the shift from 1600 onward to the bridge. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Wound strings equivalent
Bruno Fournier wrote: Does anyone know the equivalent of the following woundPyramid strings but in SAVAREZ instead? 1007 1008 1009 1011 1015 1021 1023 1025 1027 I have ordered these strings from Pyramid, but they have not replied to me. Anyways, I've always preferred SAVAREZ...but I just don't know what the equivalent sizes would .. I'm thinking of either the copper wound silk or the copperwound gut ( which I've always really enjoyed) thx Bruno -- Bruno Cognyl-Fournier Luthiste, etc Estavel Ensemble de musique ancienne [1]www.estavel.org -- References 1. http://www.estavel.org/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html try this conversion chart which appeared some time ago Charles --
[LUTE] Re: New Paul O'Dette CD
- Original Message - From: Mathias Rösel [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Arthur Ness [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Daniel Shoskes [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 4:31 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: New Paul O'Dette CD | Arthur Ness [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: | A tablature edition (not mine) with many MN ricercars and fantasias will | be published soon. I'll keep you posted. | | I bought a facsimile of Neusidler's 1574 German tablature from Dr. Bernd | Christoph Becker, Cologne. You'll have to contact via snail-mail: | Marzellenstrasse 62-64 D-50668 Cologne, Germany. Tel: (++49) 221 13 43 | 70 [Inexpensive facsimiles] | | Mathias oo Well, I just didn't want to publicize Brand X at this time.g But the edition that is due to appear any day now is newly typeset in French tablature. It contains ALL of the fantasias and ricercars by a variety of composers, including MN, that appeared in 16th-century German-tablature PRINTS. It's an anthology, and perhaps I shouldn't have been so confusing that you might not see the Tree without the forest. There are two other facsimile editions of MN's music, in addition to Dr. Becker's, the 1574 (German) MN tablature, as well as both of the his 1566 volumes (Italian tablature), one set of the three publ. Stuttgart and the other set publ. Geneva. =AJN (Boston, Mass.)= This week's free download from Classical Music Library is Schubert's Symphony No. 3 in D, D. 200 performed by the Orchestra della Svizzera Italiana, Alain Lombard, conductor. To download, click on the CML link here http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/ My Web Page: Scores http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/ Other Matters: http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/ === To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Dowland know-how
Dennis, and Jurek Perhaps Diana Poulton assumed this from the play on Dowland/Dolens, Semper Dowland Semper Dolens (and isn't that the vowel sound in her own name?). However, don't forget that the diphthongs at the time of Dowland were undergoing the process often called the Great Vowel Shift, and that the degree to which this process effected vowels varied according to dialect. Thus, even if Dowland had pronounced his name like know, it would certainly not be the value it has in modern standard BBC English (although even that is varying), and unless we know what dialect he spoke, we wouldn't have much idea about the value he gave that vowel. Furthermore, names can vary in very wild fashion, where Mountjoy, for example, can rhyme with bungee. Anthony Le 2 oct. 08 à 21:21, Jerzy Zak a écrit : Diana Poulton, at whose house in London I leved for almost two years, instructed me Dowland should be prnunced like Poland. How she's got that knowledge I don't know. Jurek ___ On 2008-10-02, at 14:53, dc wrote: I suppose this question has already been asked umpteen times, but here goes again: do we know how the ow in Dowland's name was pronounced? As in know or as in how? Thanks, Dennis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tree Edition
I really like his John Johnson edition. It's a very nice collection of music, with really good notes. Nancy Carlin At 01:58 PM 10/2/2008, Edward Martin wrote: I second that statement, Guy. I ran the bookstore this past summer at the LSA seminar, and I had to deal with Mr. Reyerman, and he was very accommodating and cooperative with the LSA. There was absolutely nothing to complain about. Besides all that, I really like his facsimile editions. I recently obtained his facsimile of David Kellner's book and I much prefer it over the Minkoff, as it is much more user-friendly. ed Nancy Carlin Associates P.O. Box 6499 Concord, CA 94524 USA phone 925/686-5800 fax 925/680-2582 web site - [1]www.nancycarlinassociates.com Administrator THE LUTE SOCIETY OF AMERICA web site - [2]http://LuteSocietyofAmerica.org -- References 1. http://www.nancycarlinassociates.com/ 2. http://lutesocietyofamerica.org/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute sound/split sound
Maybe we're talking nonsense because we haven't defined our terms. Or maybe you assume a clear dichotomy between blending and not blending; the world is a more complicated place than that. Indeed, I think the whole notion of a single sound ideal for all of Europe for a century or more is inherently incredible, but that's another discussion. Pictures show single instruments (harps, fiddles, lutes, flutes), playing together with singers. Surviving ars nova music, when executed with instruments so distinct, leaves no chance to merge or blend. Saying this does not make it so. We don't even know what the instruments were playing. Likely they were doubling the singers, in which case the dominant sound on each line would be the voice, colored by the doubling instrument; the question of whether a harp could blend with a lute would be unimportant. If other instruments are producing a treble-heavy sound, a lute player playing with a quill might just as well be trying to blend with them. How can he / she, playing his / her own part? 1) We don't know what part the lute played; 2) If you had a lute in your hand and wanted to match, as much as possible, the the tone of a rebec or a bray harp, would you play with fingers over the rose or with a quill back toward the bridge? Rhythm guitar players play with plectra today, but they rarely want to focus attention on their individual instrument. No such thing like rhythm lutes in medieval ensemble music, How do you know? Have you been listening to those non-existent recordings? You don't think any 14th-century lutenist in a dance band ever strummed a bunch of fifths? or baroque for that matter, as far as I can see. It's called continuo. In broken consorts, and some lute songs, its called the tab parts that don't have divisions. A viol player in a polyphonic consort needs to have his instrument and his line heard distinctly. The cittern player in a broken consort wants to blend with the pandora (and lute, if the lute isn't playing divisions). Again, how can he / she (cittern), playing his / her own part? By DOING IT. It's what musicians do. I'm listening at the moment to a recording of Swanne Alley; the bass viol, bandora and cittern blend very nicely in the sense that unless I'm trying to deconstruct it as I hear it, it sounds like one big instrument most of the time. About once a year, this list embarks on a discussion of whether the lute/archlute/theorbo is audible in continuo sections with harpsichords, and I always make the point that the object isn't to be heard as discrete voice, but rather to combine into whatever continuo sound you're trying to achieve. But let's omit orchestras, the lute not being an orchestra instrument. The archlute is. I assume you meant to exclude gallichons and theorbos, and I won't argue that point with you, but the archlute is just a lute with extra bass strings. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute sound / split sound
Which would explain why renaissance lutenists' propensity of playing near the rose, and the shift from 1600 onward to the bridge. Was there really a shift? I seem to recall instructions on where to plant you little finger, rather than where to actually play the strings, so perhaps it is an illusion. That's another point I cannot discuss, really. My ren-lute sounds different, when I play parallel close to the rose, from my bar-lute, when I perpendicular close to the bridge. That's what I observe with other players, too. Perhaps it's an illusion and that's why i can't discuss it 8) -- Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute sound/split sound
howard posner [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: Maybe we're talking nonsense because we haven't defined our terms. Or maybe you assume a clear dichotomy between blending and not blending; the world is a more complicated place than that. I'm too simple a listener, probably. IMHO it's a dichotomy, yes. You're certainy right, though, the world is a more complicated place than that, as the old Chinese saying has it ,) Indeed, I think the whole notion of a single sound ideal for all of Europe for a century or more is inherently incredible, but that's another discussion. It is so, indeed. I have not the faintest idea how people in northern Danmark or other people in southern Italy perceived those notions. What I try to discuss are changes of lute playing techniques in context of modern explanations of different sound aesthetics during the medieval, renaissance, and baroque eras. Pictures show single instruments (harps, fiddles, lutes, flutes), playing together with singers. Surviving ars nova music, when executed with instruments so distinct, leaves no chance to merge or blend. Saying this does not make it so. We don't even know what the instruments were playing. That's not my. I wasn't born then, so I don't know as a witness. (And you don't know either. So why do you object?) But there are pictures surviving, depicting medieval musicians who play together with singers. If you agree that things like that aren't impossible to have happened, then maybe you'll concede that those instrumentalists will either have played from the singers' parts or they played something which didn't survive in written form. You may say, all instrumentalists playing from parts, would join in one part to form an instrumental party. All I can say, then, is that it wouldn't make much sense IMHO. What would make sense on the other hand is that different instruments would go along with different parts to form a colourful band. It's just more probably, lacking evidence notwithstanding. Likely they were doubling the singers, in which case the dominant sound on each line would be the voice, colored by the doubling instrument; the question of whether a harp could blend with a lute would be unimportant. Yepp, that's certainly so. But there are pictures of purely instrumental bands, too. 2) If you had a lute in your hand and wanted to match, as much as possible, the the tone of a rebec or a bray harp, would you play with fingers over the rose or with a quill back toward the bridge? I for one would play close-to-rose so as to match. Quill stands out, that much is for sure. Rhythm guitar players play with plectra today, but they rarely want to focus attention on their individual instrument. No such thing like rhythm lutes in medieval ensemble music, How do you know? Have you been listening to those non-existent recordings? You don't think any 14th-century lutenist in a dance band ever strummed a bunch of fifths? In the way rock band rhythm guitarists do? No, I don't think so. Matter of restricted imagination, probably. or baroque for that matter, as far as I can see. It's called continuo. That's a bit sweeping, don't you think? At least, it's not the way I'm used to playing continuo when accompanying singers. First thing is to distinctly provide the bass line. Guitarists may approach this differently. In broken consorts, and some lute songs, its called the tab parts that don't have divisions. A viol player in a polyphonic consort needs to have his instrument and his line heard distinctly. The cittern player in a broken consort wants to blend with the pandora (and lute, if the lute isn't playing divisions). Again, how can he / she (cittern), playing his / her own part? By DOING IT. It's what musicians do. Okay, I'm not a musician. I'm a lute player, occasionally, in a broken consort. And I don't try to blend with other instruments but to be heard as distinctly as possible. I'm sorry I can't continue this, as I'm heading for the players' meeting in Cottbus. -- Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
