[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: What to build.
Santiago, I found your post amusing, because I actually am trained as an archaeologist. But I understand your point. At this point I am making lutes for myself and am still grappling with the basics of construction. I feel no inhibition to changing string spacing to fit my hands, which are large, somewhat arthritic, and fumbling. My lutes fit me, and that is all I worry about. We cannot build a 16th century lute. It isn't the 16th century. The wood is different, the gut is different. To me, the value of rigorous historically-informed construction is that it suggests what the original experience of playing and listening to a lute might have been. We will never really know, but rigorously following historical precedent gives us an idea. What we make of that idea is up to every builder, musician, and audience member. Fortunately, there is no lute papacy to determine orthodoxy. I was amused by an article in a recent Lute Society Quarterly about x- raying historical lutes. It seems that some of the instruments examined had the ends of the ribs simply broken off underneath the end cap and the void filled with glue. I had done that with a few ribs on the first couple of lutes I had made and I hoped no one ever found out how bad my workmanship was. But it seems that I was following historical precedent after all! So historical precedent is where you find it. Tim On Dec 20, 2008, at 4:15 PM, Santiago Ramos-Collado wrote: > Greetings. > > A maverick or heretic? Perhaps more of a visionary. Please, allow > me for one second to push heresy a couple of notches further. > > Why should historical instruments be built historically? Will the > use of historical methods, instrumentation and tooling actually > result in a superior instrument? I do not think so. > > Tradition is extremely important, inasmuch as it illustrates a way, > a path to follow; it affords us methods that have worked well for > decades, or even centuries. It offers a boundless source of > knowledge. It is, nevertheless, ever changing, evolving. What is > done effectively and efficiently today will surely become > tomorrow's tradition. However, when tradition ceases to evolve, it > dies, and thus, falls under the realm of archeology. And most > certainly, we are not archeologists; we are people who intend to > build lutes, who are seeking for efficient ways to achieve that end. > > I am of the opinion that Tielke, for instance, would have never, > ever regarded his instruments as historical or traditional, but > rather as contemporary, since they were instruments he built for > lutenists of his own day. If he were around today, he would > probably draw his plans with AutoCad, use molds made out of > fiberglass or ABS, carve his rosettes with laser, and fit his lutes > with Savarez strings, planetary pegs and Dunlop straplocks (that > is, provided that he were building lutes, and not--let's say-- > electric guitars). Anyone would be able to find him readily at > www.tielkelau...@freenet.de. We should all think about that, I > believe, when building a lute in the dawn of the 21st century. > > Best regards and season's greetings to all, > > S. Ramos-Collado > > > --- El jue 18-dic-08, Rob Dorsey escribió: > De: Rob Dorsey > Asunto: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: What to build. > A: "'Timothy Motz'" , > dem...@suffolk.lib.ny.us > Cc: lute-buil...@cs.dartmouth.edu > Fecha: jueves, 18 diciembre, 2008, 11:44 am > > Let me preface this post by saying that I consider Robert Lundberg the > greatest American Lute maker, living or dead. He was a true master > producing > master works. > > I learned my building from Bob Lundberg in his shop during the > 1980s. I was > somewhat surprised by some of the offerings in the book as the > processes > were not all exactly as I had learned. Experience has made me alter my > building procedures even more from that initial tuition to suit my own > vision of the instrument. I found that Bob's fealty to exact > historical > precedent, while not slavish or dogmatic, carried an importance that I > thought unnecessary to modern playing. He was, however, just what > the HIP > advocate ordered. > > I, therefore, have assumed a comfortable position of maverick or > outright > heretic in my building techniques and uses of modern available > woods. I > depart from Bob's teaching in adhesive choices and uses, hardwood > applications and string tensions. My barring has matured with time > and my > top thicknessing scheme has evolved as well. Bob would be > interested in some > of those innovations, aghast at others. But, he might be gratified > that I > toast him often and keep a worn copy of his book right beside my own > building notes on the shelf in the shop. > > "From each according to his gifts." Read the book, it has much to > offer if > not everything. > > Rob Dorsey > http://LuteCraft.com > > -Original Message- >
[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: What to build.
Greetings. A maverick or heretic? Perhaps more of a visionary. Please, allow me for one second to push heresy a couple of notches further. Why should historical instruments be built historically? Will the use of historical methods, instrumentation and tooling actually result in a superior instrument? I do not think so. Tradition is extremely important, inasmuch as it illustrates a way, a path to follow; it affords us methods that have worked well for decades, or even centuries. It offers a boundless source of knowledge. It is, nevertheless, ever changing, evolving. What is done effectively and efficiently today will surely become tomorrow's tradition. However, when tradition ceases to evolve, it dies, and thus, falls under the realm of archeology. And most certainly, we are not archeologists; we are people who intend to build lutes, who are seeking for efficient ways to achieve that end. I am of the opinion that Tielke, for instance, would have never, ever regarded his instruments as historical or traditional, but rather as contemporary, since they were instruments he built for lutenists of his own day. If he were around today, he would probably draw his plans with AutoCad, use molds made out of fiberglass or ABS, carve his rosettes with laser, and fit his lutes with Savarez strings, planetary pegs and Dunlop straplocks (that is, provided that he were building lutes, and not--let's say--electric guitars). Anyone would be able to find him readily at [1]www.tielkelau...@freenet.de. We should all think about that, I believe, when building a lute in the dawn of the 21st century. Best regards and season's greetings to all, S. Ramos-Collado --- El jue 18-dic-08, Rob Dorsey escribiA^3: De: Rob Dorsey Asunto: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: What to build. A: "'Timothy Motz'" , dem...@suffolk.lib.ny.us Cc: lute-buil...@cs.dartmouth.edu Fecha: jueves, 18 diciembre, 2008, 11:44 am Let me preface this post by saying that I consider Robert Lundberg the greatest American Lute maker, living or dead. He was a true master producing master works. I learned my building from Bob Lundberg in his shop during the 1980s. I was somewhat surprised by some of the offerings in the book as the processes were not all exactly as I had learned. Experience has made me alter my building procedures even more from that initial tuition to suit my own vision of the instrument. I found that Bob's fealty to exact historical precedent, while not slavish or dogmatic, carried an importance that I thought unnecessary to modern playing. He was, however, just what the HIP advocate ordered. I, therefore, have assumed a comfortable position of maverick or outright heretic in my building techniques and uses of modern available woods. I depart from Bob's teaching in adhesive choices and uses, hardwood applications and string tensions. My barring has matured with time and my top thicknessing scheme has evolved as well. Bob would be interested in some of those innovations, aghast at others. But, he might be gratified that I toast him often and keep a worn copy of his book right beside my own building notes on the shelf in the shop. "From each according to his gifts." Read the book, it has much to offer if not everything. Rob Dorsey http://LuteCraft.com -Original Message- From: Timothy Motz [mailto:tam...@buckeye-express.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 9:05 PM To: dem...@suffolk.lib.ny.us Cc: lute-buil...@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: What to build. Someone once told me that I needed to read the book, but that no one would really build lutes that way. Having read the book, I would agree. I'm glad he wrote the book and I refer to it a lot, but I wouldn't build a lute that way. Tim Motz To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ A!Todo sobre Amor y Sexo! La guAa completa para tu vida en Mujer de Hoy: http://mujerdehoy.telemundo.yahoo.com/ -- References 1. http://www.tielkelau...@freenet.de/
[LUTE] Coventry carol with falling snow
This is a bit kitsch but I could not resist it: www.christmas.lutevoice.com/ Merry christmas! To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Peg count on Choc lute
Ooops, Just a further clarification: I've never seen an 11 or 13c lute with a double first. Mace is the only late source for it, and perhaps it was just him being old-fashioned. It seems likely that a single 2nd was the result of converting a 10c lute into 11c. The easy way to do the conversion is to add a treble rider to get an extra peg and make the second course single, so you don't have to rebuild the pegbox. All you have to do then is extend the bridge and nut by one more course on the bass side; you end up with an overhanging 11th course but that's OK because you don't want to finger it anyway. When 11c lutes were made anew there would have been no reason to have a single second, though once it had become common in converted lutes it may have persisted thereafter. Best wishes, Martin David van Ooijen wrote: On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 12:24 AM, Martin Shepherd wrote: Dear Anthony and All, The double top course is found on everything from 6c lutes to Mace's 12c lute, and everything inbetween. .. iconographic evidence suggests that a double 2nd was also quite common on 11c lutes. I had no idea. Can you point us to some? And are there 11-course instruments left with a double second, or even double first course? Or converted-to-13-course lutes that show that there has been originally a double second? David To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Peg count on Choc lute
Dear David and All, On the double/single second: The painting which comes immediately to mind is the anonynous French(?) one in the Kunsthalle at Hamburg, with red bass strings. It was reproduced on the cover of Early Music a few years ago. In surviving instruments there is the ivory 11c in the V&A in London (1125-1869) - the one with the 9-rib back and elaborate neck veneer. The Schele 13c lute in Nuremberg, dated 1727 (?converted from 11c?). Of course we have so few surviving 11c lutes of any kind, probably iconography is a happier hunting ground. How about the engraving in the Rhetorique des Dieux? I can't be sure of the number of strings or pegs. Best wishes, Martin David van Ooijen wrote: On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 12:24 AM, Martin Shepherd wrote: Dear Anthony and All, The double top course is found on everything from 6c lutes to Mace's 12c lute, and everything inbetween. .. iconographic evidence suggests that a double 2nd was also quite common on 11c lutes. I had no idea. Can you point us to some? And are there 11-course instruments left with a double second, or even double first course? Or converted-to-13-course lutes that show that there has been originally a double second? David To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
