[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre [loaded?]
It isn't black and white. Paintings hold value; they are the postcards from the past. Mace has some good information, it just can't be taken at face value: the sense of the matter is elusive; that is its charm. To take everything as "real", the storied accounts, the catfish of Bosch playing the lute, where does this lead? Should all the harps be made with a corner chipped, and every lute have a broken string and a riff in the staves? Similarly, can we ignore the piece of music in the Laurent de La Hyre that is so carefully drawn that we can play from the gif of the painting hundreds of years later? It's just not "yar" to never trim the sails. dt >Dear Anthony, > >I really didn't want to rehash the old discussion (just wanted to >share an interesting picture), but in a way I am beeing forced to >reply, by your claims that finaly we found the satisfactory and >historicaly correct answer for lute stringing. Not that I am doing >it reluctantly - I always like chatting with you, which is very >stimulating - however it really seams that at this particular >moment declaring victory would be a little bit premature. > >>Personally, I am not particularly interested in the colour question, >>but I see that many people would like to touch and see the original >>loaded strings, and wont believe they existed unless they actually >>see one; and thus the facination with paintings which are somehow >>felt to be the next best thing. > >If we ignore paintings and scorn "excentric" Mace, than what >evidence are we left with? Some old Italian recepies for treating a >leather with some metal salts and the mesurements made on some old >lutes in museums. Recepies are fine, but do you have any manuscript >saying that the strings were commonly treated by "loading", not >"dyeing"? No. How many lutes were mesured for bridge hole's >diameter? 10, 20 or 30? What percentage of all lutes that were build >beetwen 16 - 18 century does it constitute? Something like >0,001% ? Is this really irrefutable evidence? >I agree, there is a problem with string gauges for short lutes and >some small bridge holes, but sometimes the solution can occure very >easy and unexpected. For example, recently it happend that I ran out >of some long, thick gut strings for my theorbo and didn't have >enough time to order the new ones. So I just mooved all the courses >by one towards bass and added a thiner 8c and 1c. The effect was >surprising. My instrument sounded better with very fine projection, >easy to play, no buzzing, clear tone (not so dull as with thick >ones). And I didn't need to change my RH technique - just as usual >TO. Frankly speeking I haven't changed them since then just because >I like it very much! I am also sure that all my strings would fit >any bridge holes of the same dimention old theorbos. This doesn't >proove anything yet, but as I say, we can't outrule any possibilities. >Meanwhile I'd like to study as much evidence as possible. Including >paintings and potty Mace! I think Stuart is absolutely right saying: > >Mace was a player of the lute, viol >>and theorbo, a composer, an enthusiast, and he certainly knew what he >>was writing about. He could see that the music he had loved all his life >>- English music - was going out of fashion, and wanted to preserve as >>much useful, practical information as he could, for future generations, >>i.e. for us. We should read the book, and be grateful. > >Mace was trying to instruct a lute amateur in choosing the best >strings. We don't know meanings of some terms he uses, but his >description is very clear. If we don't understand something we can't >claim he was insane. >As for loaded strings, I'll say again, it can be a good solution, >but mainly for musical reasons at the moment. If we have all the >research done and the results will confirm the string loading >hypothesis than we can enjoy them for two reasons. >But, even without any further findings Mimmo does the great job for >us. Musicians need the choice, diversity. >The whole discussion reminds me of the yachting world. In the >beginning of XX century most of the yachts were of traditional >construction - wooden hulls and masts, cotton sails and elegant >narrow silhouettes guaranting good seaworthiness. Later, fiberglass >boatbuilding became a standard with wider and wider decks, bigger >cockpits and shallower shapes that don't guaranty the same level of >safety as the old ones, but are much faster. Obviously the masts and >sails are synthetic as well. Is this the end of yachting? No. >Yachting is better than ever, and it is so, because of enormous >diversity of constructions and equipment at our disposal. >Relating it to our lute world, I'd say, the bigger diversity of >strings we have the better. Just look how many people use Mimmo's >nylgut strings (knowing they aren't historical - so what?). I hope >Mimmo will find some other interesting materials even better for >making
[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre [loaded?]
Dear Anthony, You are quite right, the burden of proof is now on me. I will redouble my efforts to record some pieces on my lute, made by Andy Rutherford in 1984, which resembles in every detail the lute in the Mouton portrait. It has always been strung in gut, but only in the past year, when I developed a very high torsion and highly supple and responsive strings for the bass diapasons, did the lute come to life as a veritable time machine in which, when I retreat to my man-cave and journey in my mind through the music, au Grand Siecle, où je me sent chez moi. DD I will not mention the Mouton Lute, as clearly you will tell me that the proportions in the painting are just in the mind of the artist, and that all those lute makers who base their lutes on this "model" are quite mistaken. Until recently, players who have chosen such lutes have either had to use wirewounds or gimped. I have wondered, like many others, how well the low tension stirng hypothesis can account for the facts, but don't think it can explain them (particularly for small Baroque lutes), even though this was at least part of the goal of those who adopted it. The stiff HT version of the theory may get a little closer, but still seems to fall short, unless someone can play a lute with such weakly tensioned bass strings (less than 1.5K).. I would use my loaded strings whether or not they are historic, as I don't want to use full wirewounds, unlesss someone can really persuade me that low tension is not only historic, but works better. I respect the fact that you are a string maker, and an excellent one, if I believe reports on this list, but I would prefer that you would tell us which theory you favour, rather than just which one you think has failed. Best wishes Anthony Le 27 févr. 09 à 19:56, damian dlugolecki a écrit : Dear Anthony, What is your evidence for the supposed practice of loading strings? We have to discount paintings entirely. Unless you are talking about a deliberate contrast, like a violin with a silver g string, paintings are interesting only as paintings. Painters, even of this period didn't trouble themselves about loaded strings or exact string thicknesses. Proportion was all that was important, and it seems to me that proportion is properly observed in the paintings in question. We went over all this last June. I can't imagine why you keep trying to revive this dead horse, unless you need to feel that the strings you are using are truly historical. If you like the way they sound, then play them and enjoy. But I really think the evidence for such a string having existed at any time is at best, weak. Damian Dear Damian, Alexandern, Andreas and All I forgot to add, that I do think that the use of lute extensions, such as the longer "Dutch" lute types, could have been an alternative to using loaded strings. Indeed, these lutes could be the lutemakers response to the contradictory need both for long basses and short stopped string lengths. As I understand it, the strings remain more or less the same thickness accross the basses, with a step in length to compensate for what would otherwise call for an increase in thickness. While the stopped strings can remain manageably short. According to Stephen Gottllieb this actually works well, and the basses are quite loud. However, loading would be the string maker's response to the same problem, allowing them to keep the same core size across the basses but to apply a step-up in density to compensate for the stable thickness. Thus also keeping a relatively short stopped string length. The two approaches would have stemmed from a similar thought process. In both cases, we keep a relatively manageable short stopped string length: the step-up in length, or in density, are sort of two sides of the same sort of reflection, but within the technical scope of the two different trades. I find this quite convincing, thinking that the theory must have already been there in the observations in Galileo's father's work on pitch and tension of lute strings, as well as his own on the pendulum. Although at a much later date and about demifilé, this is more or less the way Claude Perrault sees the behaviour of loaded strings, "Ouvres de Pysique" , Amsterdam 1680 http://www.aquilacorde.com/perrault.jpg As Mersenne quoted by David Taylor "gives 20 seconds as the ring length (of bass strings) which is longer than the Pyramid strings ring on my lutes." and Andreas Schlegel some time back remarked that Francesco Lana Terzi 1686, mentiond the use of silk basses; while Alexander says he has successfully made such loaded bass strings, I suppose these are also a plausible alternative, or could have coexisted with loaded gut. I believe silk strings do have much greater sustain, although I don't know how damping through loading may effect this. Perhaps, Alexander can inform us on that. Regards
[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre [loaded?]
Dear Anthony, I really didn't want to rehash the old discussion (just wanted to share an interesting picture), but in a way I am beeing forced to reply, by your claims that finaly we found the satisfactory and historicaly correct answer for lute stringing. Not that I am doing it reluctantly - I always like chatting with you, which is very stimulating - however it really seams that at this particular moment declaring victory would be a little bit premature. Personally, I am not particularly interested in the colour question, but I see that many people would like to touch and see the original loaded strings, and wont believe they existed unless they actually see one; and thus the facination with paintings which are somehow felt to be the next best thing. If we ignore paintings and scorn "excentric" Mace, than what evidence are we left with? Some old Italian recepies for treating a leather with some metal salts and the mesurements made on some old lutes in museums. Recepies are fine, but do you have any manuscript saying that the strings were commonly treated by "loading", not "dyeing"? No. How many lutes were mesured for bridge hole's diameter? 10, 20 or 30? What percentage of all lutes that were build beetwen 16 - 18 century does it constitute? Something like 0,001% ? Is this really irrefutable evidence? I agree, there is a problem with string gauges for short lutes and some small bridge holes, but sometimes the solution can occure very easy and unexpected. For example, recently it happend that I ran out of some long, thick gut strings for my theorbo and didn't have enough time to order the new ones. So I just mooved all the courses by one towards bass and added a thiner 8c and 1c. The effect was surprising. My instrument sounded better with very fine projection, easy to play, no buzzing, clear tone (not so dull as with thick ones). And I didn't need to change my RH technique - just as usual TO. Frankly speeking I haven't changed them since then just because I like it very much! I am also sure that all my strings would fit any bridge holes of the same dimention old theorbos. This doesn't proove anything yet, but as I say, we can't outrule any possibilities. Meanwhile I'd like to study as much evidence as possible. Including paintings and potty Mace! I think Stuart is absolutely right saying: >Mace was a player of the lute, viol and theorbo, a composer, an enthusiast, and he certainly knew what he was writing about. He could see that the music he had loved all his life - English music - was going out of fashion, and wanted to preserve as much useful, practical information as he could, for future generations, i.e. for us. We should read the book, and be grateful. Mace was trying to instruct a lute amateur in choosing the best strings. We don't know meanings of some terms he uses, but his description is very clear. If we don't understand something we can't claim he was insane. As for loaded strings, I'll say again, it can be a good solution, but mainly for musical reasons at the moment. If we have all the research done and the results will confirm the string loading hypothesis than we can enjoy them for two reasons. But, even without any further findings Mimmo does the great job for us. Musicians need the choice, diversity. The whole discussion reminds me of the yachting world. In the beginning of XX century most of the yachts were of traditional construction - wooden hulls and masts, cotton sails and elegant narrow silhouettes guaranting good seaworthiness. Later, fiberglass boatbuilding became a standard with wider and wider decks, bigger cockpits and shallower shapes that don't guaranty the same level of safety as the old ones, but are much faster. Obviously the masts and sails are synthetic as well. Is this the end of yachting? No. Yachting is better than ever, and it is so, because of enormous diversity of constructions and equipment at our disposal. Relating it to our lute world, I'd say, the bigger diversity of strings we have the better. Just look how many people use Mimmo's nylgut strings (knowing they aren't historical - so what?). I hope Mimmo will find some other interesting materials even better for making perfect lute strings. And it's great we already have the loaded strings. However to claim they are historical we still have to wait, as David Tayler rightly posted: But to know what strings they used, we need to do some basic research. We have to measure every hole in every lute bridge, allowing for all the changes that might have been made. That gives us one data set--and will of course tell us a HUGE piece of information on reentrant stringing. Second, we need to do a chemical analysis of any pieces of original strings, with some layer X-rays. Until we do that, we are just guessing. Guessing is good, but it would be nice to get some basic data like we have on paper watermarks, paint composition and so on. Also, if we do the basic res
[LUTE] Happy Hinamatsuri!
I know, it's off topic, but there's a baroque guitar in the video! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FH1rEJKJB8 David - has suddenly a lot of respect for people who can play with clicktrack ... -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre [loaded?]
On Feb 27, 2009, at 12:50 PM, Stewart McCoy wrote: > People end up thinking that's all he had to say, that > he was eccentric, cranky, unreliable, to be treated with caution, etc. > Nothing could be more ridiculous. Mace was a player of the lute, viol > and theorbo, a composer, an enthusiast, and he certainly knew what he > was writing about. He could see that the music he had loved all his > life > - English music - was going out of fashion, and wanted to preserve as > much useful, practical information as he could, for future > generations, > i.e. for us. None of that is inconsistent with being a crank. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre [loaded?]
I've heard and played a number of lutes strung all in gut that sound just fine. Where you start to get the clunky sound is on the low C on a ten course. I'm just going to assume that their strings were say, 20 percent better than ours. That would more than make gut stringing practical. Did they have other types of strings that we don't know about? It's intriguing, we need an old set of strings--maybe there were some on that Pirate ship where they found the Dulcian, after years of saying the Dulcian did not exist. dt At 12:52 PM 2/27/2009, you wrote: >On Feb 27, 2009, at 11:54 AM, Anthony Hind wrote: > > > How do you account for small lutes like the Vienna Frey, without > > the loading theory? > >Lute in A? > >In G at high pitch? > >Big honkin' monster soprano lute in D? > > >-- > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Loaded questions
Strings is a big question.But to know what strings they used, we need to do some basic research. We have to measure every hole in every lute bridge, allowing for all the changes that might have been made. That gives us one data set--and will of course tell us a HUGE piece of information on reentrant stringing. Second, we need to do a chemical analysis of any pieces of original strings, with some layer X-rays. Until we do that, we are just guessing. Guessing is good, but it would be nice to get some basic data like we have on paper watermarks, paint composition and so on. Also, if we do the basic research twenty years from now, it is pretty much guaranteed that it will invalidate most of what we are doing now. dt At 11:32 AM 2/27/2009, you wrote: Anthony, perhaps i should clarify my expertise (or the lack of such) concerning the string making, as to ascertain and such... Just to make the connection: http://www.mail-archive.com/lute@cs.dartmouth.edu/msg25030.html Now i will try to answer some of your questions. Very obviously, i do not have any serious experience with gut, and i did not make any serious experiments with it. I did have some shorter and longer discussions with Mimmo while he was in the process of developing his loaded gut strings, and have tried loading myself, i could appreciate the difficulties he encountered. The stranded structure of his recent loaded strings is not the only reason for their improved qualities. He also found some better chemical treatments (lets not forget, Mimmo Peruffo IS a professional chemist!). From what i can see, there is a better bond between the gut and the metal. Otherwise no amount of flexibility would be of any use: the copper slurry would just crumble and dislodge from the gut. This particular point might be almost of essence in regard of what metals work the best with animal proteins. Personally i am not aware of any animal protein - metal salts bind described historically. I know that Mimmo has searched high and low to find evidence or any documented description of technique. I am not privy to the results. However, textile use of metal salts of practically every single metal on earth (as well as use to impregnate wood, btw) are extremely well documented. There is one fundamental difference in problems facing a string maker if he attempts to bind gut with metal salt and make string of it, or if he does it with the silk. Gut string is glued together by its' own matter, so to speak. Collagen is both the fibers and the glue that holds string together. Thus introduction of any foreign material disrupts the bond. In leather works therefore the tanning is a very important and ingenious process (as a matter of fact, leather tanning was exactly the area Mimmo was researching closely). Tanning produces such a change in collagen, that it becomes able to take dyes, stay flexible indefinitely, be glued with a variety of glues (all the qualities missing in raw collagen, but so important in case you want to bind it with metal salts). Silk fiber, on the other hand is glued together by a separate glue (sericin), produced by the worm, and if that glue is removed (easily by hot water), silk fiber binds very easily with any salt. It does not like the dyes, UNLESS first treated with some metallic salt. So, while binding gut with metal proceeds by a very difficult path, silk binds naturally, and allows after that any imaginable treatment to create any kind of flexibility etc., including creating a finish impenetrable by poisonous metals, if so be desired. I can not attest to how different the sound of mercury-lead salts vs copper pigment in gut would be, but i can say that in silk, the lower molecular weight of the loading is, the duller, less sustained is the sound. Which makes sense, as there is less structural disturbance to the fibers themselves. The best sound by far was to me of a gold plated silk. It was quite easy to do, by the way, using very low voltage in salt brine with suspended gold pigment. There. It is both amazing and stupefying that the old string makers managed to create a very reliable and certain technology on par only with the contemporary to us world of guitar string-market. The lute was everywhere, and every single one of them had so perfectly working basses, that nobody ever questioned - how they work, nobody cared for the longest time for any silly wire-wounds. In fact they worked so well and so obviously, that no one did bother to describe them to us, silly ancestors. What a pity! On Fri, 27 Feb 2009 13:32:05 +0100 Anthony Hind wrote: > Dear Alexander and All >I adress my musings to you as you obviously have had > hands on experimenting with loading and its tonal effect. > (I wrote this before my reply to Damian aboout the more general > question of loading versus low tension HT, from within the loaded gut > hypothesis, and leaving aside, for
[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre [loaded?]
On Feb 27, 2009, at 11:54 AM, Anthony Hind wrote: > How do you account for small lutes like the Vienna Frey, without > the loading theory? Lute in A? In G at high pitch? Big honkin' monster soprano lute in D? -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Laurent de La Hyre [loaded?]
Dear Daniel, The point about keeping one's lute in bed is all about damp causing damage to the lute. A bed which is constantly used will be as dry a place as you can find for the lute, as long as you avoid the sweat etc between the sheets. Mace presents this gem of advice in an amusing way. Unfortunately the passage is often quoted out of context, laughed at, and misunderstood. People end up thinking that's all he had to say, that he was eccentric, cranky, unreliable, to be treated with caution, etc. Nothing could be more ridiculous. Mace was a player of the lute, viol and theorbo, a composer, an enthusiast, and he certainly knew what he was writing about. He could see that the music he had loved all his life - English music - was going out of fashion, and wanted to preserve as much useful, practical information as he could, for future generations, i.e. for us. We should read the book, and be grateful. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. -Original Message- From: Daniel Winheld [mailto:dwinh...@comcast.net] Sent: 27 February 2009 16:41 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre [loaded?] >What precise parts of Mace's work do you find not 'reliable'. > >(Descartes last words here) >dt "Don't walk away, René..." Storing lutes in beds. Smashed more theorbi than the airlines. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre [loaded?]
Dear Damian I think that the properties of gut have not changed, or only very slightly, so that Modern and Ancient concers are not really different. How do you account for small lutes like the Vienna Frey, without the loading theory? Were they really strung with the massive pure gut strings that would be needed for equal to touch tension, going against the small historic bass string holes, or with limp strings around 1Kg? I will not mention the Mouton Lute, as clearly you will tell me that the proportions in the painting are just in the mind of the artist, and that all those lute makers who base their lutes on this "model" are quite mistaken. Until recently, players who have chosen such lutes have either had to use wirewounds or gimped. As a string maker yourself, you are in a better position than myself to give a good alternative explanation, but you do not seem to want to do so. I certainly do not want to shut down discussion or prevent others from putting forward their theories, but using terms like "reviving a dead horse" seem to me a way of just brushing a theory under the carpet. I have wondered, like many others, how well the low tension stirng hypothesis can account for the facts, but don't think it can explain them (particularly for small Baroque lutes), even though this was at least part of the goal of those who adopted it. The stiff HT version of the theory may get a little closer, but still seems to fall short, unless someone can play a lute with such weakly tensioned bass strings (less than 1.5K).. I would not discount the silk loaded theory and am willing to listen to any theory you like to put up. For the moment, some form of the loaded string theory seems the most promising to me. I would use my loaded strings whether or not they are historic, as I don't want to use full wirewounds, unlesss someone can really persuade me that low tension is not only historic, but works better. I respect the fact that you are a string maker, and an excellent one, if I believe reports on this list, but I would prefer that you would tell us which theory you favour, rather than just which one you think has failed. Best wishes Anthony Le 27 févr. 09 à 19:56, damian dlugolecki a écrit : Dear Anthony, What is your evidence for the supposed practice of loading strings? We have to discount paintings entirely. Unless you are talking about a deliberate contrast, like a violin with a silver g string, paintings are interesting only as paintings. Painters, even of this period didn't trouble themselves about loaded strings or exact string thicknesses. Proportion was all that was important, and it seems to me that proportion is properly observed in the paintings in question. We went over all this last June. I can't imagine why you keep trying to revive this dead horse, unless you need to feel that the strings you are using are truly historical. If you like the way they sound, then play them and enjoy. But I really think the evidence for such a string having existed at any time is at best, weak. Damian Dear Damian, Alexandern, Andreas and All I forgot to add, that I do think that the use of lute extensions, such as the longer "Dutch" lute types, could have been an alternative to using loaded strings. Indeed, these lutes could be the lutemakers response to the contradictory need both for long basses and short stopped string lengths. As I understand it, the strings remain more or less the same thickness accross the basses, with a step in length to compensate for what would otherwise call for an increase in thickness. While the stopped strings can remain manageably short. According to Stephen Gottllieb this actually works well, and the basses are quite loud. However, loading would be the string maker's response to the same problem, allowing them to keep the same core size across the basses but to apply a step-up in density to compensate for the stable thickness. Thus also keeping a relatively short stopped string length. The two approaches would have stemmed from a similar thought process. In both cases, we keep a relatively manageable short stopped string length: the step-up in length, or in density, are sort of two sides of the same sort of reflection, but within the technical scope of the two different trades. I find this quite convincing, thinking that the theory must have already been there in the observations in Galileo's father's work on pitch and tension of lute strings, as well as his own on the pendulum. Although at a much later date and about demifilé, this is more or less the way Claude Perrault sees the behaviour of loaded strings, "Ouvres de Pysique" , Amsterdam 1680 http://www.aquilacorde.com/perrault.jpg As Mersenne quoted by David Taylor "gives 20 seconds as the ring length (of bass strings) which is longer than the Pyramid strings ring on my lutes." and Andreas Schlegel some time back
[LUTE] Loaded questions
Anthony, perhaps i should clarify my expertise (or the lack of such) concerning the string making, as to ascertain and such... Just to make the connection: http://www.mail-archive.com/lute@cs.dartmouth.edu/msg25030.html Now i will try to answer some of your questions. Very obviously, i do not have any serious experience with gut, and i did not make any serious experiments with it. I did have some shorter and longer discussions with Mimmo while he was in the process of developing his loaded gut strings, and have tried loading myself, i could appreciate the difficulties he encountered. The stranded structure of his recent loaded strings is not the only reason for their improved qualities. He also found some better chemical treatments (lets not forget, Mimmo Peruffo IS a professional chemist!). From what i can see, there is a better bond between the gut and the metal. Otherwise no amount of flexibility would be of any use: the copper slurry would just crumble and dislodge from the gut. This particular point might be almost of essence in regard of what metals work the best with animal proteins. Personally i am not aware of any animal protein - metal salts bind described historically. I know that Mimmo has searched high and low to find evidence or any documented description of technique. I am not privy to the results. However, textile use of metal salts of practically every single metal on earth (as well as use to impregnate wood, btw) are extremely well documented. There is one fundamental difference in problems facing a string maker if he attempts to bind gut with metal salt and make string of it, or if he does it with the silk. Gut string is glued together by its' own matter, so to speak. Collagen is both the fibers and the glue that holds string together. Thus introduction of any foreign material disrupts the bond. In leather works therefore the tanning is a very important and ingenious process (as a matter of fact, leather tanning was exactly the area Mimmo was researching closely). Tanning produces such a change in collagen, that it becomes able to take dyes, stay flexible indefinitely, be glued with a variety of glues (all the qualities missing in raw collagen, but so important in case you want to bind it with metal salts). Silk fiber, on the other hand is glued together by a separate glue (sericin), produced by the worm, and if that glue is removed (easily by hot water), silk fiber binds very easily with any salt. It does not like the dyes, UNLESS first treated with some metallic salt. So, while binding gut with metal proceeds by a very difficult path, silk binds naturally, and allows after that any imaginable treatment to create any kind of flexibility etc., including creating a finish impenetrable by poisonous metals, if so be desired. I can not attest to how different the sound of mercury-lead salts vs copper pigment in gut would be, but i can say that in silk, the lower molecular weight of the loading is, the duller, less sustained is the sound. Which makes sense, as there is less structural disturbance to the fibers themselves. The best sound by far was to me of a gold plated silk. It was quite easy to do, by the way, using very low voltage in salt brine with suspended gold pigment. There. It is both amazing and stupefiing that the old string makers managed to create a very reliable and certain technology on par only with the contemporary to us world of guitar string-market. The lute was everywhere, and every single one of them had so perfectly working basses, that nobody ever questioned - how they work, nobody cared for the longest time for any silly wire-wounds. In fact they worked so well and so obviously, that no one did bother to describe them to us, silly ancestors. What a pity! Dear Damian, Alexandern, Andreas and All I forgot to add, that I do think that the use of lute extensions, such as the longer "Dutch" lute types, could have been an alternative to using loaded strings. Indeed, these lutes could be the lutemakers response to the contradictory need both for long basses and short stopped string lengths. As I understand it, the strings remain more or less the same thickness accross the basses, with a step in length to compensate for what would otherwise call for an increase in thickness. While the stopped strings can remain manageably short. According to Stephen Gottllieb this actually works well, and the basses are quite loud. However, loading would be the string maker's response to the same problem, allowing them to keep the same core size across the basses but to apply a step-up in density to compensate for the stable thickness. Thus also keeping a relatively short stopped string length. The two approaches would have stemmed from a similar thought process. In both cases, we keep a relatively manageable short stopped string length: the step-up in length, or in density, are sort of two sides of th
[LUTE] Loaded questions
Anthony, perhaps i should clarify my expertise (or the lack of such) concerning the string making, as to ascertain and such... Just to make the connection: http://www.mail-archive.com/lute@cs.dartmouth.edu/msg25030.html Now i will try to answer some of your questions. Very obviously, i do not have any serious experience with gut, and i did not make any serious experiments with it. I did have some shorter and longer discussions with Mimmo while he was in the process of developing his loaded gut strings, and have tried loading myself, i could appreciate the difficulties he encountered. The stranded structure of his recent loaded strings is not the only reason for their improved qualities. He also found some better chemical treatments (lets not forget, Mimmo Peruffo IS a professional chemist!). From what i can see, there is a better bond between the gut and the metal. Otherwise no amount of flexibility would be of any use: the copper slurry would just crumble and dislodge from the gut. This particular point might be almost of essence in regard of what metals work the best with animal proteins. Personally i am not aware of any animal protein - metal salts bind described historically. I know that Mimmo has searched high and low to find evidence or any documented description of technique. I am not privy to the results. However, textile use of metal salts of practically every single metal on earth (as well as use to impregnate wood, btw) are extremely well documented. There is one fundamental difference in problems facing a string maker if he attempts to bind gut with metal salt and make string of it, or if he does it with the silk. Gut string is glued together by its' own matter, so to speak. Collagen is both the fibers and the glue that holds string together. Thus introduction of any foreign material disrupts the bond. In leather works therefore the tanning is a very important and ingenious process (as a matter of fact, leather tanning was exactly the area Mimmo was researching closely). Tanning produces such a change in collagen, that it becomes able to take dyes, stay flexible indefinitely, be glued with a variety of glues (all the qualities missing in raw collagen, but so important in case you want to bind it with metal salts). Silk fiber, on the other hand is glued together by a separate glue (sericin), produced by the worm, and if that glue is removed (easily by hot water), silk fiber binds very easily with any salt. It does not like the dyes, UNLESS first treated with some metallic salt. So, while binding gut with metal proceeds by a very difficult path, silk binds naturally, and allows after that any imaginable treatment to create any kind of flexibility etc., including creating a finish impenetrable by poisonous metals, if so be desired. I can not attest to how different the sound of mercury-lead salts vs copper pigment in gut would be, but i can say that in silk, the lower molecular weight of the loading is, the duller, less sustained is the sound. Which makes sense, as there is less structural disturbance to the fibers themselves. The best sound by far was to me of a gold plated silk. It was quite easy to do, by the way, using very low voltage in salt brine with suspended gold pigment. There. It is both amazing and stupefying that the old string makers managed to create a very reliable and certain technology on par only with the contemporary to us world of guitar string-market. The lute was everywhere, and every single one of them had so perfectly working basses, that nobody ever questioned - how they work, nobody cared for the longest time for any silly wire-wounds. In fact they worked so well and so obviously, that no one did bother to describe them to us, silly ancestors. What a pity! On Fri, 27 Feb 2009 13:32:05 +0100 Anthony Hind wrote: > Dear Alexander and All >I adress my musings to you as you obviously have had > hands on experimenting with loading and its tonal effect. > (I wrote this before my reply to Damian aboout the more general > question of loading versus low tension HT, from within the loaded gut > hypothesis, and leaving aside, for the moment the alternative silk > loading possibility that you have raised, and to which I may return > in a seperate message, so as not to confuse issues.) > > > Le 24 févr. 09 à 19:56, alexander a écrit : > > > > The evidence of loaded strings is based squarely on Mimmo Peruffo's > > research. His conclusions were made on the basis of paintings > > (showing smooth surface = non wound strings with a variant of red > > color ) and instrument string-hole measurements. > > Without going in to the silk loading question for the moment (which > could be very interesting), but accepting the Mimmo's arguments as > set out above (at least for the moment), I wonder about the relevance > of the questions raised about the "HIPness" of Mimmo's copper, rather > than me
[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre [loaded?]
Dear Anthony, What is your evidence for the supposed practice of loading strings? We have to discount paintings entirely. Unless you are talking about a deliberate contrast, like a violin with a silver g string, paintings are interesting only as paintings. Painters, even of this period didn't trouble themselves about loaded strings or exact string thicknesses. Proportion was all that was important, and it seems to me that proportion is properly observed in the paintings in question. We went over all this last June. I can't imagine why you keep trying to revive this dead horse, unless you need to feel that the strings you are using are truly historical. If you like the way they sound, then play them and enjoy. But I really think the evidence for such a string having existed at any time is at best, weak. Damian Dear Damian, Alexandern, Andreas and All I forgot to add, that I do think that the use of lute extensions, such as the longer "Dutch" lute types, could have been an alternative to using loaded strings. Indeed, these lutes could be the lutemakers response to the contradictory need both for long basses and short stopped string lengths. As I understand it, the strings remain more or less the same thickness accross the basses, with a step in length to compensate for what would otherwise call for an increase in thickness. While the stopped strings can remain manageably short. According to Stephen Gottllieb this actually works well, and the basses are quite loud. However, loading would be the string maker's response to the same problem, allowing them to keep the same core size across the basses but to apply a step-up in density to compensate for the stable thickness. Thus also keeping a relatively short stopped string length. The two approaches would have stemmed from a similar thought process. In both cases, we keep a relatively manageable short stopped string length: the step-up in length, or in density, are sort of two sides of the same sort of reflection, but within the technical scope of the two different trades. I find this quite convincing, thinking that the theory must have already been there in the observations in Galileo's father's work on pitch and tension of lute strings, as well as his own on the pendulum. Although at a much later date and about demifilé, this is more or less the way Claude Perrault sees the behaviour of loaded strings, "Ouvres de Pysique" , Amsterdam 1680 http://www.aquilacorde.com/perrault.jpg As Mersenne quoted by David Taylor "gives 20 seconds as the ring length (of bass strings) which is longer than the Pyramid strings ring on my lutes." and Andreas Schlegel some time back remarked that Francesco Lana Terzi 1686, mentiond the use of silk basses; while Alexander says he has successfully made such loaded bass strings, I suppose these are also a plausible alternative, or could have coexisted with loaded gut. I believe silk strings do have much greater sustain, although I don't know how damping through loading may effect this. Perhaps, Alexander can inform us on that. Regards Anthony Le 27 févr. 09 à 11:35, Anthony Hind a écrit : Dear Anthony, You seem to be intent on finding evidence to support a historical premise for 'loaded' strings. You rely heavily on a color theory that supposes that reddish strings indicate loaded strings. Since you are not privy to the stringmakers craft other than what you have gathered from Mimmo, you can't be blamed for being ignorant of the fact that this reddish brown color is the natural color for strings that have been made with minimal chemical exposure, that is to say, only mild soaps and of course soda ash. Dear Damian I am aware of that fact. I know that Georges Stoppani strings are more or less that colour and not as far as I know treated. Indeed, I suggested that the rotten red strings mentioned by Mace could be distinct from those that might be red through loading (I was exactly thinking they might be untreated ones, and not the perhaps red from loading Pistoys, he mentions). Although, I agree all that was pure speculation. Personally, I am not particularly interested in the colour question, but I see that many people would like to touch and see the original loaded strings, and wont believe they existed unless they actually see one; and thus the facination with paintings which are somehow felt to be the next best thing. I pointed out that it was impossible to tell, even by looking at the photos of my lute, that the strings are brown-red because of loading, unless you also look at the thickness of the strings. It is these two factors that should be taken together, especially if the lute has a short string length. That is why I point to the Mouton lute painting. The strings painted there are not at all thick, and yet they would surely need to have been on such a small lute. There are two alternative theories: low tens
[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre [loaded?] or soaked ...
Dana I was quoting Daniel. These were his words: What precise parts of Mace's work do you find not 'reliable'. Storing lutes in beds. Smashed more theorbi than the airlines. Mine were ones saying how consistent Mace was, and the quoting Arthur Ness, in favour of this. Anthony Le 27 févr. 09 à 19:15, a écrit : On Fri, Feb 27, 2009, Anthony Hind said: What precise parts of Mace's work do you find not 'reliable'. Storing lutes in beds. Smashed more theorbi than the airlines. I fail to see how this makes Mace unreliable. I people followed that practice he is proven, only if not can he be proven unreliable; and if not, then, how did those instruments get smashed? (I assume you have the statistics, funny, havent seen any post-mortem rolls for theorbos in england) It seems he must have had a very damp environment (except in bed), the RH of bedding depends a great deal on the sleeping habits of its occupants, especially if, during particularly cold weather, they found hats insufficiant and ducked heads under the blankets for self-=preservation (as I have found necessary these severeal months past). As Arthur has noted, the citterns of Boston were oft-times stored with linens. I would think perhaps that a nice cedar blanket chest would serve for lute-sized instruments. River estuarys are commonly swampy in places, Boston would not have been alone in colonial towns in having a 'damp' season; the caribian islands as well. -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Saltarello
We discussed the flask--A lot of singers are now concerned about BPA chemicals in plastic. Shiny, isn't it? More historical than the electric heating pads for the Gemshorns and the drums. The Laouta is a custom mod by Mel Wong. There is a label inside with a picture of my hero, Marvin the Martian. It has a gorgeous sound. dt At 09:18 AM 2/27/2009, you wrote: >I also have a couple of questions. >David, is that a Cretan laouta you are using? >And is that inauthentic stainless steel KleenKanteen flask under the >chair just a prop, or it has a musical purpose? >RT > > > > >- Original Message - From: "Stuart Walsh" >To: "David Tayler" ; "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu" > >Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 12:04 PM >Subject: [LUTE] Re: Saltarello > > >>David Tayler wrote: >>>Fun with lute, harp, tambourine & recorder >>>[1]http://tinyurl.com/Saltarello >>>dt -- >> >>Very effectively and persuasively played. I would never have >>guessed that the percussion was just one person and a tambourine. I >>have a couple of questions, if you don't mind: there seems to be >>nothing happening on the medieval list. >> >>In some modern versions of this tune, the fifth 'bar' is repeated. >>This is how I first saw the tune and the way your group plays it. >>But McGee's version in 'Medieval Instrumental Dances' (1989) >>doesn't repeat it. I'm almost sure the repeat of bar 5 is editorial >>and McGee is giving the tune 'as is'. So I wonder if you think >>McGee's version is incorrect - or perhaps too literal and that it >>makes sense to double that bar. Actually I've got used to hearing >>it the McGee way. (In my opinion, it's one of the few medieval >>dance tunes that fits a G-tuned lute like a glove. Lamenta, >>Manfredina etc aren't that difficult - but not so (almost) >>effortless as this Saltarello.) >> >>The other thing is the drone. Assuming the final is C. Then the >>drone that you and the harp perform is presumably c-g. But the >>'Aperto' (the first time close) ends in A and you have the drone >>temporarily move to a-e(?). So for the complete piece the drone is >>almost always C but four times it moves temporarily to A. Now the >>performance of your group sounds very effective and attractive but >>if you were being really, really picky, would a temporary drone - >>almost like a 'chord' change- like this have been performance >>practice of the time? >> >> >>Stuart >>>References >>> >>>1. http://tinyurl.com/Saltarello >>> >>> >>>To get on or off this list see list information at >>>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>> >>> >>> >>>No virus found in this incoming message. >>>Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: >>>270.11.3/1973 - Release Date: 02/26/09 07:03:00 >>> >> >> >
[LUTE] Re: Saltarello
The bar: The original MS does not have the bar, but I think it is nice to repeat it. I've tried it both ways, I prefer the repeat of the bar. There are many examples of bars that have one too many or one to few repeats. However, the original is a bar shorter. Also, I think that repeating any bar was a standard performance practice option. The drone: I have my own theories about drones. I find that most "bow and gurdy" drones are unsuitable for the duo of harp and lute. There is not much historical evidence, but I have analyzed quite a bit of early polyphony and conductus. There is pretty strong evidence that instruments that can drone had more than one drone, the main one is the organ, or course. Conductus is the most interesting repertory for the supporting sounds for me personally. I will be posting a cantiga that has a conductus style drone later this week, you can see if you like it. Thanks for listening! dt At 09:04 AM 2/27/2009, you wrote: >David Tayler wrote: >>Fun with lute, harp, tambourine & recorder >>[1]http://tinyurl.com/Saltarello >>dt -- >> > >Very effectively and persuasively played. I would never have guessed >that the percussion was just one person and a tambourine. I have a >couple of questions, if you don't mind: there seems to be nothing >happening on the medieval list. > >In some modern versions of this tune, the fifth 'bar' is repeated. >This is how I first saw the tune and the way your group plays it. >But McGee's version in 'Medieval Instrumental Dances' (1989) doesn't >repeat it. I'm almost sure the repeat of bar 5 is editorial and >McGee is giving the tune 'as is'. So I wonder if you think McGee's >version is incorrect - or perhaps too literal and that it makes >sense to double that bar. Actually I've got used to hearing it the >McGee way. (In my opinion, it's one of >the few medieval dance tunes that fits a G-tuned lute like a glove. >Lamenta, Manfredina etc aren't that difficult - but not so (almost) >effortless as this Saltarello.) > >The other thing is the drone. Assuming the final is C. Then the >drone that you and the harp perform is presumably c-g. But the >'Aperto' (the first time close) ends in A and you have the drone >temporarily move to a-e(?). So for the complete piece the drone is >almost always C but four times it moves temporarily to A. Now the >performance of your group sounds very effective and attractive but >if you were being really, really picky, would a temporary drone - >almost like a 'chord' change- like this have been performance >practice of the time? > > >Stuart >>References >> >>1. http://tinyurl.com/Saltarello >> >> >>To get on or off this list see list information at >>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> >> >> >>No virus found in this incoming message. >>Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: >>270.11.3/1973 - Release Date: 02/26/09 07:03:00 >> >>
[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre [loaded?]
I don't see that the "Roman" analogy is a direct analogy; in the case of Apicius it is a tangled tale in a late source, with an overabundance of fish sauce. Varenne's 17th century cookbook is interesting because it is so different from those from other countries. There are many issues with Mace, but the main one in regard to the strings is that he was eccentric and far removed from the source. And I'm not saying the information isn't true, I'm just saying it isn't reliable. Elevating Mace to the level of reliable, first hand witnesses is just fitting the the facts to the theory. Even if Mace was the Samuel Pepys of the lute--which he is not--he still would be far removed from the Continent, which makes him a secondary source For example, the fact that he tuned in single reentrant for the theorbo, is that a personal quirk, or reflective of English practice, or one of several variant tunings, or reflective of a widespread Continental practice, or one of several widespread Continental tunings? Well, we just can't say--the information is interesting, but there is no evaluative context. From a compositional point of view, the narrative of the defence of English music seems to me to show that he was not really familiar with the major composers of his time. The lack of sales for his book is ascribed to the waning of the lute's popularity, but I think it is far more reasonable to assume that his book was a dud for any number of reasons, the central one presumably that much of the material was dated. I think it is pretty safe to say that the important figures in music were also for the most part unaware of Mace and his work. New evidence may come to light to rebut this, but he seems pretty far off the radar. Contrast Mace's writing with that of the eclectic Pepys: We walked to church with him, and then I left them without staying the sermon and straight home by water, and there find, as I expected, [1]Mr. Hill, and [2]Andrews, and one slovenly and ugly fellow, [3]Seignor Pedro, who sings Italian songs to the [4]theorbo most neatly, and they spent the whole evening in singing the best piece of musique counted of all hands in the world, made by [5]Seignor Charissimi, the famous master in Rome. Interesting that it was "OK" to skip out before the sermon. I think the issue here is not whether one can defend any source for music style--one can, of course, I think it is important whether there IS a difference, or whether they all get lumped together. And then, of course, people can disagree. And we will. dt > Suppose he had written a cookbook that included a recipe for two > headed boar, and wrote a chapter on Italian spices. > Would later chefs take it seriously? actually, three are quite a few modern cooks who are working with surviving recipies from the time of the Romans and later who would have been interested, especially in the spices. Jaded feasters were commonly served mostrosities such as swans-a-swimming and cockatrices; a two-headed boar would have been a tame sight. Apparantly, there is no evidence that thomas Mace traveled, to Italy or anywhere (Mathew Spring, _The Lute in Britain_), and, yes, there can be a difference in quality of product between differnt markets for it. But, consider that lute strings will not find a huge local market anywhere, most of them would have been marketed away from where they were produced; and production locale was most likely to have been chosen for proximity to a fleshe market to ensure fresh and conveniant raw materials. -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at [6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.pepysdiary.com/p/7165.php 2. http://www.pepysdiary.com/p/7673.php 3. http://www.pepysdiary.com/p/7730.php 4. http://www.pepysdiary.com/p/457.php 5. http://www.pepysdiary.com/p/7731.php 6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre [loaded?] or soaked ...
On Fri, Feb 27, 2009, Anthony Hind said: >>>What precise parts of Mace's work do you find not 'reliable'. >> Storing lutes in beds. Smashed more theorbi than the airlines. I fail to see how this makes Mace unreliable. I people followed that practice he is proven, only if not can he be proven unreliable; and if not, then, how did those instruments get smashed? (I assume you have the statistics, funny, havent seen any post-mortem rolls for theorbos in england) > It seems he must have had a very damp environment (except in bed), the RH of bedding depends a great deal on the sleeping habits of its occupants, especially if, during particularly cold weather, they found hats insufficiant and ducked heads under the blankets for self-=preservation (as I have found necessary these severeal months past). As Arthur has noted, the citterns of Boston were oft-times stored with linens. I would think perhaps that a nice cedar blanket chest would serve for lute-sized instruments. River estuarys are commonly swampy in places, Boston would not have been alone in colonial towns in having a 'damp' season; the caribian islands as well. -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Saltarello
it looks like a turkish lavta not a greek one. Davide - Original Message - From: "Roman Turovsky" To: "Stuart Walsh" ; "David Tayler" ; "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu" Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 6:18 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Saltarello I also have a couple of questions. David, is that a Cretan laouta you are using? And is that inauthentic stainless steel KleenKanteen flask under the chair just a prop, or it has a musical purpose? RT - Original Message - From: "Stuart Walsh" To: "David Tayler" ; "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu" Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 12:04 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Saltarello David Tayler wrote: Fun with lute, harp, tambourine & recorder [1]http://tinyurl.com/Saltarello dt -- Very effectively and persuasively played. I would never have guessed that the percussion was just one person and a tambourine. I have a couple of questions, if you don't mind: there seems to be nothing happening on the medieval list. In some modern versions of this tune, the fifth 'bar' is repeated. This is how I first saw the tune and the way your group plays it. But McGee's version in 'Medieval Instrumental Dances' (1989) doesn't repeat it. I'm almost sure the repeat of bar 5 is editorial and McGee is giving the tune 'as is'. So I wonder if you think McGee's version is incorrect - or perhaps too literal and that it makes sense to double that bar. Actually I've got used to hearing it the McGee way. (In my opinion, it's one of the few medieval dance tunes that fits a G-tuned lute like a glove. Lamenta, Manfredina etc aren't that difficult - but not so (almost) effortless as this Saltarello.) The other thing is the drone. Assuming the final is C. Then the drone that you and the harp perform is presumably c-g. But the 'Aperto' (the first time close) ends in A and you have the drone temporarily move to a-e(?). So for the complete piece the drone is almost always C but four times it moves temporarily to A. Now the performance of your group sounds very effective and attractive but if you were being really, really picky, would a temporary drone - almost like a 'chord' change- like this have been performance practice of the time? Stuart References 1. http://tinyurl.com/Saltarello To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1973 - Release Date: 02/26/09 07:03:00
[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre [loaded?] or soaked ...
What precise parts of Mace's work do you find not 'reliable'. (Descartes last words here) dt "Don't walk away, René..." Storing lutes in beds. Smashed more theorbi than the airlines. Daniel Actually this point goes very well together with the observations he makes on the rotten strings. It seems he must have had a very damp environment (except in bed), and so preferred to break his lute by bedding it between the sheets, rather than letting it rot. I only wonder why he didn't strore the strings with it. Arthur Ness, said the following: "The most popular instrument in colonial Boston was the cittern. More popular than the flute or harpsichord. These figures are derived from tax reports. Household possessions were inventoried and taxed. In any event, these reports often state that the cittern was stored with the linens! Now I understand why. In those days Boston was surrounded by water, and the humidity is even today horrendous in the summer. (The "Back Bay" was filled in during the 19th century, and several hills were leveled to provide the land fill.)" AN Regards Anthony Le 27 févr. 09 à 17:40, Daniel Winheld a écrit : What precise parts of Mace's work do you find not 'reliable'. (Descartes last words here) dt "Don't walk away, René..." Storing lutes in beds. Smashed more theorbi than the airlines. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre [loaded?]
Dear Damian, Alexandern, Andreas and All I forgot to add, that I do think that the use of lute extensions, such as the longer "Dutch" lute types, could have been an alternative to using loaded strings. Indeed, these lutes could be the lutemakers response to the contradictory need both for long basses and short stopped string lengths. As I understand it, the strings remain more or less the same thickness accross the basses, with a step in length to compensate for what would otherwise call for an increase in thickness. While the stopped strings can remain manageably short. According to Stephen Gottllieb this actually works well, and the basses are quite loud. However, loading would be the string maker's response to the same problem, allowing them to keep the same core size across the basses but to apply a step-up in density to compensate for the stable thickness. Thus also keeping a relatively short stopped string length. The two approaches would have stemmed from a similar thought process. In both cases, we keep a relatively manageable short stopped string length: the step-up in length, or in density, are sort of two sides of the same sort of reflection, but within the technical scope of the two different trades. I find this quite convincing, thinking that the theory must have already been there in the observations in Galileo's father's work on pitch and tension of lute strings, as well as his own on the pendulum. Although at a much later date and about demifilé, this is more or less the way Claude Perrault sees the behaviour of loaded strings, "Ouvres de Pysique" , Amsterdam 1680 http://www.aquilacorde.com/perrault.jpg As Mersenne quoted by David Taylor "gives 20 seconds as the ring length (of bass strings) which is longer than the Pyramid strings ring on my lutes." and Andreas Schlegel some time back remarked that Francesco Lana Terzi 1686, mentiond the use of silk basses; while Alexander says he has successfully made such loaded bass strings, I suppose these are also a plausible alternative, or could have coexisted with loaded gut. I believe silk strings do have much greater sustain, although I don't know how damping through loading may effect this. Perhaps, Alexander can inform us on that. Regards Anthony Le 27 févr. 09 à 11:35, Anthony Hind a écrit : Dear Anthony, You seem to be intent on finding evidence to support a historical premise for 'loaded' strings. You rely heavily on a color theory that supposes that reddish strings indicate loaded strings. Since you are not privy to the stringmakers craft other than what you have gathered from Mimmo, you can't be blamed for being ignorant of the fact that this reddish brown color is the natural color for strings that have been made with minimal chemical exposure, that is to say, only mild soaps and of course soda ash. Dear Damian I am aware of that fact. I know that Georges Stoppani strings are more or less that colour and not as far as I know treated. Indeed, I suggested that the rotten red strings mentioned by Mace could be distinct from those that might be red through loading (I was exactly thinking they might be untreated ones, and not the perhaps red from loading Pistoys, he mentions). Although, I agree all that was pure speculation. Personally, I am not particularly interested in the colour question, but I see that many people would like to touch and see the original loaded strings, and wont believe they existed unless they actually see one; and thus the facination with paintings which are somehow felt to be the next best thing. I pointed out that it was impossible to tell, even by looking at the photos of my lute, that the strings are brown-red because of loading, unless you also look at the thickness of the strings. It is these two factors that should be taken together, especially if the lute has a short string length. That is why I point to the Mouton lute painting. The strings painted there are not at all thick, and yet they would surely need to have been on such a small lute. There are two alternative theories: low tension and toroidal pretensioned stringing (I'll leave the second aside for the moment). There is a combination of factors to account for: even with his low tension stringing, Satoh's string diameters are too thick to pass through the small historic bridge holes. He prefers extended Dutch lutes to increase the string length with large bowls to reinforce the bass, showing that it is difficult to obtain a good bass even with the moderate low tension that he uses. Furthermore, he has to play near the bridge, not just for the top strings, but above all for the basses, as his basses are so slack. He therefore adopts an RH swallo'w nest shape with his thumb level with his index finger, as far back as it can go. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/old/Cleveland2006/TSatohConcert.html Not at all the shape suggested by Burwell, or shown in the ic
[LUTE] Re: Saltarello
I also have a couple of questions. David, is that a Cretan laouta you are using? And is that inauthentic stainless steel KleenKanteen flask under the chair just a prop, or it has a musical purpose? RT - Original Message - From: "Stuart Walsh" To: "David Tayler" ; "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu" Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 12:04 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Saltarello David Tayler wrote: Fun with lute, harp, tambourine & recorder [1]http://tinyurl.com/Saltarello dt -- Very effectively and persuasively played. I would never have guessed that the percussion was just one person and a tambourine. I have a couple of questions, if you don't mind: there seems to be nothing happening on the medieval list. In some modern versions of this tune, the fifth 'bar' is repeated. This is how I first saw the tune and the way your group plays it. But McGee's version in 'Medieval Instrumental Dances' (1989) doesn't repeat it. I'm almost sure the repeat of bar 5 is editorial and McGee is giving the tune 'as is'. So I wonder if you think McGee's version is incorrect - or perhaps too literal and that it makes sense to double that bar. Actually I've got used to hearing it the McGee way. (In my opinion, it's one of the few medieval dance tunes that fits a G-tuned lute like a glove. Lamenta, Manfredina etc aren't that difficult - but not so (almost) effortless as this Saltarello.) The other thing is the drone. Assuming the final is C. Then the drone that you and the harp perform is presumably c-g. But the 'Aperto' (the first time close) ends in A and you have the drone temporarily move to a-e(?). So for the complete piece the drone is almost always C but four times it moves temporarily to A. Now the performance of your group sounds very effective and attractive but if you were being really, really picky, would a temporary drone - almost like a 'chord' change- like this have been performance practice of the time? Stuart References 1. http://tinyurl.com/Saltarello To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1973 - Release Date: 02/26/09 07:03:00
[LUTE] Re: Saltarello
David Tayler wrote: Fun with lute, harp, tambourine & recorder [1]http://tinyurl.com/Saltarello dt -- Very effectively and persuasively played. I would never have guessed that the percussion was just one person and a tambourine. I have a couple of questions, if you don't mind: there seems to be nothing happening on the medieval list. In some modern versions of this tune, the fifth 'bar' is repeated. This is how I first saw the tune and the way your group plays it. But McGee's version in 'Medieval Instrumental Dances' (1989) doesn't repeat it. I'm almost sure the repeat of bar 5 is editorial and McGee is giving the tune 'as is'. So I wonder if you think McGee's version is incorrect - or perhaps too literal and that it makes sense to double that bar. Actually I've got used to hearing it the McGee way. (In my opinion, it's one of the few medieval dance tunes that fits a G-tuned lute like a glove. Lamenta, Manfredina etc aren't that difficult - but not so (almost) effortless as this Saltarello.) The other thing is the drone. Assuming the final is C. Then the drone that you and the harp perform is presumably c-g. But the 'Aperto' (the first time close) ends in A and you have the drone temporarily move to a-e(?). So for the complete piece the drone is almost always C but four times it moves temporarily to A. Now the performance of your group sounds very effective and attractive but if you were being really, really picky, would a temporary drone - almost like a 'chord' change- like this have been performance practice of the time? Stuart References 1. http://tinyurl.com/Saltarello To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1973 - Release Date: 02/26/09 07:03:00
[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre [loaded?]
> Suppose he had written a cookbook that included a recipe for two > headed boar, and wrote a chapter on Italian spices. > Would later chefs take it seriously? actually, three are quite a few modern cooks who are working with surviving recipies from the time of the Romans and later who would have been interested, especially in the spices. Jaded feasters were commonly served mostrosities such as swans-a-swimming and cockatrices; a two-headed boar would have been a tame sight. Apparantly, there is no evidence that thomas Mace traveled, to Italy or anywhere (Mathew Spring, _The Lute in Britain_), and, yes, there can be a difference in quality of product between differnt markets for it. But, consider that lute strings will not find a huge local market anywhere, most of them would have been marketed away from where they were produced; and production locale was most likely to have been chosen for proximity to a fleshe market to ensure fresh and conveniant raw materials. -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre [loaded?]
What precise parts of Mace's work do you find not 'reliable'. (Descartes last words here) dt "Don't walk away, René..." Storing lutes in beds. Smashed more theorbi than the airlines. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre [loaded?]
What precise parts of Mace's work do you find not 'reliable'. MH --- On Fri, 27/2/09, David Tayler wrote: From: David Tayler Subject: [LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre [loaded?] To: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu" Date: Friday, 27 February, 2009, 10:20 AM When you read the sources, you read the whole source--every word--then decide how reliable the source is. In the case of Mace, fact and fancy are sprinkled together. I mean there is some fun stuff in there of course, like the word for when the peg spins out of control (frapping). Then there is the question of whether your source is mainstream; and Mace can be pretty eccentric. I'd like to believe it, it's fun to believe it, but I don't consider him a reliable source. Then there is the additional matter of geography. That's not to say that what he says isn't true, it may be, it may not, it just is not reliable. And even if Mace were an expert--which he may have been--there is nothing to say that he is knowledgeable about strings in Italy. Who knows what the "export" grade was. If it was like wine, well, tante cose! Suppose he had written a cookbook that included a recipe for two headed boar, and wrote a chapter on Italian spices. Would later chefs take it seriously? (Descartes last words here) dt At 01:42 AM 2/27/2009, you wrote: >What do you base your assumption on? >JL > >- Original Message - From: "David Tayler" >To: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu" >Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 6:01 AM >Subject: [LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre [loaded?] > > >>Mace is not a reliable source, sadly. >>dt >> >> >>At 06:03 AM 2/26/2009, you wrote: >>>Dear Anthony, >>> >>>I think we had this conversation some time ago, but nothing can be >>>said with certainty in the face of deficient evidence. >>> However, I wonder whether mild loading could not also have been used on other strings than basses, just to help conservation. Mace tells us about rotten strings: "I have sometimes seen strings of a yellowish colour, very good; yet, but seldom; for that colour is a general sign of rottenness, or of the decay of the string." This must have been common problem. Perhaps a mild loading could help conserve strings (admittedly, Mace does also say that red strings are often rotten). >>> >>>I don't think this is what he really meant. In the chapter you quote >>>Mace explains how to choose the good strings. He advices two types: >>>Minikins and Venice-Catlines as the best ones: >>>(Mace p.65-66) "Both (Minikins and Venice-Catlines) which are >>>(generally) at the same price, and the signs of goodness, both the >>>same; which are, first the clearness of the string to the eye, the >>>smoothness, and the stiffness to the finger" >>>Then he mentions Lyon strings which are not as good in his opinion: >>>"But they are much more inferior strings than the other." >>>The sentence that follows (which you cited) maybe interpreted >>>twofold. Either he continues on commenting Lyons, or he gives the >>>general remark concerning yellowish coloration which may or may not >>>be a sign of rotteness. This is like saying beware of yellowish >>>strings because they might be rotten, but nothing more. We can't >>>jump into the conclusion that the most strings would be rotten if >>>not loaded. >>> Again Mace mentions "There is another sort of strings, which they call Pistoy basses, which I conceive are none other than thick Venice- Catlins, which are commonly dyed, with a deep dark red colour." So perhaps, if loaded basses existed they would have been from Pistoia, Bologne, etc, and not Rome. >>> >>>Well, he doesn't say "which are commonly loaded" but rather >>>"commonly dyed". As I say, we had this discussion on differences >>>between the loading and dyeing process, so I won't repeat my >>>arguments (can be checked in the archives), but we really shouldn't >>>use these terms interchangeably, because by dyeing Mace could mean >>>only the process of applying a color to the string (which is the >>>most common meaning of this word). >>> Perhaps, also if loaded strings were often red, and at the same time of high repute, other makers of lesser strings, might have also dyed theirs red. to cash in on their prestige (i agree, I am just adding to the speculation). >>> >>>The red color wasn't really a sign of string goodness. The remark >>>you cited, Mace applies to the thick red Venice-Catlines only. But >>>they apparently weren't very popular since he says: "but they are >>>hard to come by". Quite contrary to what you wrote, when Mace >>>describes the goodness of colored strings, he says that: "the red >>>commonly rotten". >>>Morover he mentions several string colors in common use: "There are >>>several sorts of coloured strings, very good; but the best (to my >>>observation) was always the clear blue; the red, commomly rotten; >>>sometimes green, very good." >>>If we claim that the red loading prevented decay p
[LUTE] Re: Saltarello
I liked the tempo, David. People often play this piece way too fast. Very good. Rob 2009/2/27 David Tayler <[1]vidan...@sbcglobal.net> Fun with lute, harp, tambourine & recorder [1][2]http://tinyurl.com/Saltarello dt -- References 1. [3]http://tinyurl.com/Saltarello To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:vidan...@sbcglobal.net 2. http://tinyurl.com/Saltarello 3. http://tinyurl.com/Saltarello 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre
Dear Alexander and All I adress my musings to you as you obviously have had hands on experimenting with loading and its tonal effect. (I wrote this before my reply to Damian aboout the more general question of loading versus low tension HT, from within the loaded gut hypothesis, and leaving aside, for the moment the alternative silk loading possibility that you have raised, and to which I may return in a seperate message, so as not to confuse issues.) Le 24 févr. 09 à 19:56, alexander a écrit : The evidence of loaded strings is based squarely on Mimmo Peruffo's research. His conclusions were made on the basis of paintings (showing smooth surface = non wound strings with a variant of red color ) and instrument string-hole measurements. Without going in to the silk loading question for the moment (which could be very interesting), but accepting the Mimmo's arguments as set out above (at least for the moment), I wonder about the relevance of the questions raised about the "HIPness" of Mimmo's copper, rather than mercury or lead loaded strings. As you seem to have experience in string loading, just what effect has the difference in loading material on the sound? My impression was that the purpose of research into early string types, was to rediscover the tones and textures that early gut string types contributed to the music, and to make these qualities (not the actual strings) available to lutenists today, if they wish to use them. If the tonal difference due to choice of loading metal type is negligeable, because all that loading contributes to the gut bass is simply greater density, (resulting in thinner bass diapasons which in turn give better "intonation" with the octaves and trebles), then the essential goal has surely been achieved with these copper loaded basses, so long as they are also adequately true. That is surely all we should expect from the process. "Trueness" was the real problem with Mimmo's first generation strings, but miraculously no longer, it seems to me, with the new Venice version. There is an obvious tonal difference between these first and second generation loaded strings, but isn't this mostly due to the different core used, not the loading: Type 2 Venice-loaded show better inharmonicity due to the greater flexibility of the core material used? It is clearly possible to see this difference on this photo of the two string types, side by side on my lute table, Type 1 (right) and Type 2 (left) : http://m.flickr.com/#/photos/74539...@n00/2551494920/ The iconographic evidence shows just how flexible (soft and curly) Meanes and Basses could have been: http://www.aquilacorde.com/i8.htm Mimmo's Venice loaded strings can be tied in a bunch exactly like in the painting, which was not true of the stiff Type 1: http://www.aquilacorde.com/loaded%20gut.JPG There may be questions as to whether historically this flexibility was obtained by twining and chemical treatment or just by some some unknown (at present) way of chemically treating HT strings, but again the important factor is surely the tonal quality (improved high frequency behaviour) that a high degree of flexibility imparts to the gut string, and not the exact process by which it is obtained? I would guess that there would be more difference between a loaded Venice and a loaded HT, than between a Venice loaded with copper and one loaded with Lead oxide, but I admit that I have never heard the second, so this is only my guess, which perhaps you are in position, Alexander, to verify for us. In short, it seems to me that what is essential is that the gut Meanes should be very flexible, and that the gut Basses should be both dense and flexible, if this is acheived with chemicals and technology that was around at the time, that is surely the essential goal achieved. At the same time, fall-out from this understanding of tone types and the physical properties of the gut involved in obtaining them, should help to eventually improve synthetic strings. One could imagine synthetic basses heavilly dosed with metals having a warmer sound and better inharmonicity than present wirewounds. Regards Anthony On Tue, 24 Feb 2009 17:41:33 + "Monica Hall" wrote: I wouldn't claim to be an expert, but according to my medical dictionary mercury poisoning was common in some trades in the past - in particular in the preparation of felt used in hats. That is where the expression "mad as a hatter" comes from. This may be a silly question because I have been following this thread very closely but is there any evidence that strings were loaded with mercury or anything else apart from the fact that some works of art show the lower courses differently coloured? Monica - Original Message - From: "Martyn Hodgson" To: "David van Ooijen" ; "Mathias Rösel" Cc: Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2
[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre [loaded?]
Do you suggest he was so potty that he wasn't able to discern red from yellow, blue or green color of the strings he used to buy (because this is what we are talking about, not the whole book as such)? Besides we are not discussing the scientific matters, but rather looking for some evidence which is aparently lacking. His testimony of the things he saw and experienced are of some value for us if taken with caution. JL - Original Message - From: "David Tayler" To: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu" Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 11:20 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre [loaded?] When you read the sources, you read the whole source--every word--then decide how reliable the source is. In the case of Mace, fact and fancy are sprinkled together. I mean there is some fun stuff in there of course, like the word for when the peg spins out of control (frapping). Then there is the question of whether your source is mainstream; and Mace can be pretty eccentric. I'd like to believe it, it's fun to believe it, but I don't consider him a reliable source. Then there is the additional matter of geography. That's not to say that what he says isn't true, it may be, it may not, it just is not reliable. And even if Mace were an expert--which he may have been--there is nothing to say that he is knowledgeable about strings in Italy. Who knows what the "export" grade was. If it was like wine, well, tante cose! Suppose he had written a cookbook that included a recipe for two headed boar, and wrote a chapter on Italian spices. Would later chefs take it seriously? (Descartes last words here) dt At 01:42 AM 2/27/2009, you wrote: What do you base your assumption on? JL - Original Message - From: "David Tayler" To: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu" Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 6:01 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre [loaded?] Mace is not a reliable source, sadly. dt At 06:03 AM 2/26/2009, you wrote: Dear Anthony, I think we had this conversation some time ago, but nothing can be said with certainty in the face of deficient evidence. However, I wonder whether mild loading could not also have been used on other strings than basses, just to help conservation. Mace tells us about rotten strings: "I have sometimes seen strings of a yellowish colour, very good; yet, but seldom; for that colour is a general sign of rottenness, or of the decay of the string." This must have been common problem. Perhaps a mild loading could help conserve strings (admittedly, Mace does also say that red strings are often rotten). I don't think this is what he really meant. In the chapter you quote Mace explains how to choose the good strings. He advices two types: Minikins and Venice-Catlines as the best ones: (Mace p.65-66) "Both (Minikins and Venice-Catlines) which are (generally) at the same price, and the signs of goodness, both the same; which are, first the clearness of the string to the eye, the smoothness, and the stiffness to the finger" Then he mentions Lyon strings which are not as good in his opinion: "But they are much more inferior strings than the other." The sentence that follows (which you cited) maybe interpreted twofold. Either he continues on commenting Lyons, or he gives the general remark concerning yellowish coloration which may or may not be a sign of rotteness. This is like saying beware of yellowish strings because they might be rotten, but nothing more. We can't jump into the conclusion that the most strings would be rotten if not loaded. Again Mace mentions "There is another sort of strings, which they call Pistoy basses, which I conceive are none other than thick Venice- Catlins, which are commonly dyed, with a deep dark red colour." So perhaps, if loaded basses existed they would have been from Pistoia, Bologne, etc, and not Rome. Well, he doesn't say "which are commonly loaded" but rather "commonly dyed". As I say, we had this discussion on differences between the loading and dyeing process, so I won't repeat my arguments (can be checked in the archives), but we really shouldn't use these terms interchangeably, because by dyeing Mace could mean only the process of applying a color to the string (which is the most common meaning of this word). Perhaps, also if loaded strings were often red, and at the same time of high repute, other makers of lesser strings, might have also dyed theirs red. to cash in on their prestige (i agree, I am just adding to the speculation). The red color wasn't really a sign of string goodness. The remark you cited, Mace applies to the thick red Venice-Catlines only. But they apparently weren't very popular since he says: "but they are hard to come by". Quite contrary to what you wrote, when Mace describes the goodness of colored strings, he says that: "the red commonly rotten". Morover he mentions several string colors in common use: "There are several sorts of coloured strings, very good; but the best (to my observation) was always the clear bl
[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre [loaded?]
> Dear Anthony, You seem to be intent on finding evidence to > support a historical > premise for 'loaded' strings. You rely heavily on a color theory > that supposes that > reddish strings indicate loaded strings. Since you are not privy > to the stringmakers > craft other than what you have gathered from Mimmo, you can't be > blamed for > being ignorant of the fact that this reddish brown color is the > natural color for > strings that have been made with minimal chemical exposure, that is > to say, only > mild soaps and of course soda ash. Dear Damian I am aware of that fact. I know that Georges Stoppani strings are more or less that colour and not as far as I know treated. Indeed, I suggested that the rotten red strings mentioned by Mace could be distinct from those that might be red through loading (I was exactly thinking they might be untreated ones, and not the perhaps red from loading Pistoys, he mentions). Although, I agree all that was pure speculation. Personally, I am not particularly interested in the colour question, but I see that many people would like to touch and see the original loaded strings, and wont believe they existed unless they actually see one; and thus the facination with paintings which are somehow felt to be the next best thing. I pointed out that it was impossible to tell, even by looking at the photos of my lute, that the strings are brown-red because of loading, unless you also look at the thickness of the strings. It is these two factors that should be taken together, especially if the lute has a short string length. That is why I point to the Mouton lute painting. The strings painted there are not at all thick, and yet they would surely need to have been on such a small lute. There are two alternative theories: low tension and toroidal pretensioned stringing (I'll leave the second aside for the moment). There is a combination of factors to account for: even with his low tension stringing, Satoh's string diameters are too thick to pass through the small historic bridge holes. He prefers extended Dutch lutes to increase the string length with large bowls to reinforce the bass, showing that it is difficult to obtain a good bass even with the moderate low tension that he uses. Furthermore, he has to play near the bridge, not just for the top strings, but above all for the basses, as his basses are so slack. He therefore adopts an RH swallo'w nest shape with his thumb level with his index finger, as far back as it can go. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/old/Cleveland2006/TSatohConcert.html Not at all the shape suggested by Burwell, or shown in the iconography, where the thumb is always well ahead of the index, when near the bridge: Burwell, Ch. 6, p. 16, last paragraph: "For the right hand, it must be placed betweene the Rose and the Bridge but nearest [sic!] to the bridge. your hand must lye vppon the belly of the Lute with the little finger onely, which must be as it were glued vnto it. and keepe the Thumbe as much as one can, leaning vpon the Base. It must be before all the rest of the hand, marching as the Captaine of the Fingers. that hand must be riseing in the middle in the forme of an Arche, that you may not smother the Stringes." (Punctuation marks are mine.) This corresponds with the hand shape of Charles Mouton, note the thumb well ahead of the fingers: In front of the bridge: http://www.aquilacorde.com/mouton5.jpg Behind the bridge: http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/Ember/brugghen-1628.gif On the bridge: http://tinyurl.com/ago2rd I am not criticising his position, only showing that even with his mild low tension hypothesis, he needs to maximise all elements that can favour the bass: length of basses (bass extension), size of bowl (Burkholzer), hand shape and position. There does not seem to be much leeway left for lowering the tension further. It has been suggested to me that this could be done by using a stiff HT bass: a stiff string could pass through a 1,5mm hole if it is twisted, and perhaps oiled to help it pass. If it is stiff it should be less slack at low tension. Perhaps the tesnion would be around 1.5KG/Newtons. First it is still not clear that such a tension is playable, secondly, it would not in anyway fulfill the criterion of equal tesnion to touch (Dowland Mace, etc). I don't think you can argue that it depends where you touch the strings. Yes, if the thumb was nearer the bridge than the fingers, but it is the contrary shown in the iconography, with the little finger behind the bridge, as suggested by Mace. Secondly, Meanes and Basses are typically shown as curly and flexible, even when not under tension. That is not so for a stiff HT. http://www.aquilacorde.com/i8.htm I am not arguing against other ways of stringing. On the contrary, I hope that Satoh will continue to develop his low tension style, an
[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre [loaded?]
When you read the sources, you read the whole source--every word--then decide how reliable the source is. In the case of Mace, fact and fancy are sprinkled together. I mean there is some fun stuff in there of course, like the word for when the peg spins out of control (frapping). Then there is the question of whether your source is mainstream; and Mace can be pretty eccentric. I'd like to believe it, it's fun to believe it, but I don't consider him a reliable source. Then there is the additional matter of geography. That's not to say that what he says isn't true, it may be, it may not, it just is not reliable. And even if Mace were an expert--which he may have been--there is nothing to say that he is knowledgeable about strings in Italy. Who knows what the "export" grade was. If it was like wine, well, tante cose! Suppose he had written a cookbook that included a recipe for two headed boar, and wrote a chapter on Italian spices. Would later chefs take it seriously? (Descartes last words here) dt At 01:42 AM 2/27/2009, you wrote: >What do you base your assumption on? >JL > >- Original Message - From: "David Tayler" >To: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu" >Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 6:01 AM >Subject: [LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre [loaded?] > > >>Mace is not a reliable source, sadly. >>dt >> >> >>At 06:03 AM 2/26/2009, you wrote: >>>Dear Anthony, >>> >>>I think we had this conversation some time ago, but nothing can be >>>said with certainty in the face of deficient evidence. >>> However, I wonder whether mild loading could not also have been used on other strings than basses, just to help conservation. Mace tells us about rotten strings: "I have sometimes seen strings of a yellowish colour, very good; yet, but seldom; for that colour is a general sign of rottenness, or of the decay of the string." This must have been common problem. Perhaps a mild loading could help conserve strings (admittedly, Mace does also say that red strings are often rotten). >>> >>>I don't think this is what he really meant. In the chapter you quote >>>Mace explains how to choose the good strings. He advices two types: >>>Minikins and Venice-Catlines as the best ones: >>>(Mace p.65-66) "Both (Minikins and Venice-Catlines) which are >>>(generally) at the same price, and the signs of goodness, both the >>>same; which are, first the clearness of the string to the eye, the >>>smoothness, and the stiffness to the finger" >>>Then he mentions Lyon strings which are not as good in his opinion: >>>"But they are much more inferior strings than the other." >>>The sentence that follows (which you cited) maybe interpreted >>>twofold. Either he continues on commenting Lyons, or he gives the >>>general remark concerning yellowish coloration which may or may not >>>be a sign of rotteness. This is like saying beware of yellowish >>>strings because they might be rotten, but nothing more. We can't >>>jump into the conclusion that the most strings would be rotten if >>>not loaded. >>> Again Mace mentions "There is another sort of strings, which they call Pistoy basses, which I conceive are none other than thick Venice- Catlins, which are commonly dyed, with a deep dark red colour." So perhaps, if loaded basses existed they would have been from Pistoia, Bologne, etc, and not Rome. >>> >>>Well, he doesn't say "which are commonly loaded" but rather >>>"commonly dyed". As I say, we had this discussion on differences >>>between the loading and dyeing process, so I won't repeat my >>>arguments (can be checked in the archives), but we really shouldn't >>>use these terms interchangeably, because by dyeing Mace could mean >>>only the process of applying a color to the string (which is the >>>most common meaning of this word). >>> Perhaps, also if loaded strings were often red, and at the same time of high repute, other makers of lesser strings, might have also dyed theirs red. to cash in on their prestige (i agree, I am just adding to the speculation). >>> >>>The red color wasn't really a sign of string goodness. The remark >>>you cited, Mace applies to the thick red Venice-Catlines only. But >>>they apparently weren't very popular since he says: "but they are >>>hard to come by". Quite contrary to what you wrote, when Mace >>>describes the goodness of colored strings, he says that: "the red >>>commonly rotten". >>>Morover he mentions several string colors in common use: "There are >>>several sorts of coloured strings, very good; but the best (to my >>>observation) was always the clear blue; the red, commomly rotten; >>>sometimes green, very good." >>>If we claim that the red loading prevented decay process, than why >>>he says the red strings were commonly rotten? >>>It seems to me that the dyeing (coloration) had nothing to do with >>>decay preventing. >>> There are however, some more convincing examples that do look like loading. On the same Art site,
[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre [loaded?]
What do you base your assumption on? JL - Original Message - From: "David Tayler" To: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu" Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 6:01 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre [loaded?] Mace is not a reliable source, sadly. dt At 06:03 AM 2/26/2009, you wrote: Dear Anthony, I think we had this conversation some time ago, but nothing can be said with certainty in the face of deficient evidence. However, I wonder whether mild loading could not also have been used on other strings than basses, just to help conservation. Mace tells us about rotten strings: "I have sometimes seen strings of a yellowish colour, very good; yet, but seldom; for that colour is a general sign of rottenness, or of the decay of the string." This must have been common problem. Perhaps a mild loading could help conserve strings (admittedly, Mace does also say that red strings are often rotten). I don't think this is what he really meant. In the chapter you quote Mace explains how to choose the good strings. He advices two types: Minikins and Venice-Catlines as the best ones: (Mace p.65-66) "Both (Minikins and Venice-Catlines) which are (generally) at the same price, and the signs of goodness, both the same; which are, first the clearness of the string to the eye, the smoothness, and the stiffness to the finger" Then he mentions Lyon strings which are not as good in his opinion: "But they are much more inferior strings than the other." The sentence that follows (which you cited) maybe interpreted twofold. Either he continues on commenting Lyons, or he gives the general remark concerning yellowish coloration which may or may not be a sign of rotteness. This is like saying beware of yellowish strings because they might be rotten, but nothing more. We can't jump into the conclusion that the most strings would be rotten if not loaded. Again Mace mentions "There is another sort of strings, which they call Pistoy basses, which I conceive are none other than thick Venice- Catlins, which are commonly dyed, with a deep dark red colour." So perhaps, if loaded basses existed they would have been from Pistoia, Bologne, etc, and not Rome. Well, he doesn't say "which are commonly loaded" but rather "commonly dyed". As I say, we had this discussion on differences between the loading and dyeing process, so I won't repeat my arguments (can be checked in the archives), but we really shouldn't use these terms interchangeably, because by dyeing Mace could mean only the process of applying a color to the string (which is the most common meaning of this word). Perhaps, also if loaded strings were often red, and at the same time of high repute, other makers of lesser strings, might have also dyed theirs red. to cash in on their prestige (i agree, I am just adding to the speculation). The red color wasn't really a sign of string goodness. The remark you cited, Mace applies to the thick red Venice-Catlines only. But they apparently weren't very popular since he says: "but they are hard to come by". Quite contrary to what you wrote, when Mace describes the goodness of colored strings, he says that: "the red commonly rotten". Morover he mentions several string colors in common use: "There are several sorts of coloured strings, very good; but the best (to my observation) was always the clear blue; the red, commomly rotten; sometimes green, very good." If we claim that the red loading prevented decay process, than why he says the red strings were commonly rotten? It seems to me that the dyeing (coloration) had nothing to do with decay preventing. There are however, some more convincing examples that do look like loading. On the same Art site, I saw another Caravaggio painting including a lute with just one red string, and it was the 7th. Now this might well be a loaded 7c-D. http://www.caravaggio.rai.it/eng/opere.swf?currentImage=3 The answer could be very easy - just because he had only one red bass string at home. But seriously, this prooves nothing yet. Looking at my photo, it is difficult to tell whether the string is loaded or just coloured, unless you take account of the relative thinness. http://tinyurl.com/cyvnyo Yes, absolutely I agree, the gauge of the bass strings and the bridge holes may signify the existence of loading. Italian traditional receipts for loading other popular items may be the other evidence. But we can't say anything more by now. I think historical research should be used to open up new-old possibilities of approaching the music, not to shut down any other personal investigation. It should just help us to refine our choices. Absolutely! However we have to take the evidence as it is. Nevertheless, I agree entirely with you. It would be such a pity if every lutensist adopted exactly the same solutions to all these problems. How much more interesting from the point of view of tone and texture, if players personal research come up with varied solutions. That Ed Martin with Dan
