What precise parts of Mace's work do you find not 'reliable'.
MH
--- On Fri, 27/2/09, David Tayler <vidan...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
From: David Tayler <vidan...@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre [loaded?]
To: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Date: Friday, 27 February, 2009, 10:20 AM
When you read the sources, you read the whole source--every
word--then decide how reliable the source is. In the case of Mace,
fact and fancy are sprinkled together.
I mean there is some fun stuff in there of course, like the word for
when the peg spins out of control (frapping).
Then there is the question of whether your source is mainstream; and
Mace can be pretty eccentric. I'd like to believe it, it's fun to
believe it, but I don't consider him a reliable source.
Then there is the additional matter of geography.
That's not to say that what he says isn't true, it may be, it may
not, it just is not reliable.
And even if Mace were an expert--which he may have been--there is
nothing to say that he is knowledgeable about strings in Italy.
Who knows what the "export" grade was. If it was like wine, well,
tante cose!
Suppose he had written a cookbook that included a recipe for two
headed boar, and wrote a chapter on Italian spices.
Would later chefs take it seriously?
(Descartes last words here)
dt
At 01:42 AM 2/27/2009, you wrote:
>What do you base your assumption on?
>JL
>
>----- Original Message ----- From: "David Tayler"
<vidan...@sbcglobal.net>
>To: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 6:01 AM
>Subject: [LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre [loaded?]
>
>
>>Mace is not a reliable source, sadly.
>>dt
>>
>>
>>At 06:03 AM 2/26/2009, you wrote:
>>>Dear Anthony,
>>>
>>>I think we had this conversation some time ago, but nothing can be
>>>said with certainty in the face of deficient evidence.
>>>
>>>>However, I wonder whether mild loading could not also have been
used
>>>>on other strings than basses, just to help conservation.
>>>>Mace tells us about rotten strings:
>>>>"I have sometimes seen strings of a yellowish colour, very
good; yet,
>>>>but seldom; for that colour is a general sign of rottenness, or
of
>>>>the decay of the string."
>>>>This must have been common problem. Perhaps a mild loading
could help
>>>>conserve strings (admittedly, Mace does also say that red
strings are
>>>>often rotten).
>>>
>>>I don't think this is what he really meant. In the chapter you
quote
>>>Mace explains how to choose the good strings. He advices two types:
>>>Minikins and Venice-Catlines as the best ones:
>>>(Mace p.65-66) "Both (Minikins and Venice-Catlines) which are
>>>(generally) at the same price, and the signs of goodness, both the
>>>same; which are, first the clearness of the string to the eye, the
>>>smoothness, and the stiffness to the finger...."
>>>Then he mentions Lyon strings which are not as good in his
opinion:
>>>"But they are much more inferior strings than the other."
>>>The sentence that follows (which you cited) maybe interpreted
>>>twofold. Either he continues on commenting Lyons, or he gives the
>>>general remark concerning yellowish coloration which may or may not
>>>be a sign of rotteness. This is like saying beware of yellowish
>>>strings because they might be rotten, but nothing more. We
can't
>>>jump into the conclusion that the most strings would be rotten if
>>>not loaded.
>>>
>>>>Again Mace mentions "There is another sort of strings,
which they
>>>>call Pistoy basses, which I conceive are none other than thick
Venice-
>>>>Catlins, which are commonly dyed, with a deep dark red
colour."
>>>>So perhaps, if loaded basses existed they would have been from
>>>>Pistoia, Bologne, etc, and not Rome.
>>>
>>>Well, he doesn't say "which are commonly loaded" but
rather
>>>"commonly dyed". As I say, we had this discussion on
differences
>>>between the loading and dyeing process, so I won't repeat my
>>>arguments (can be checked in the archives), but we really
shouldn't
>>>use these terms interchangeably, because by dyeing Mace could mean
>>>only the process of applying a color to the string (which is the
>>>most common meaning of this word).
>>>
>>>>Perhaps, also if loaded strings were often red, and at the same
time
>>>>of high repute, other makers of lesser strings, might have also
dyed
>>>>theirs red.
>>>>to cash in on their prestige (i agree, I am just adding to the
>>>>speculation).
>>>
>>>The red color wasn't really a sign of string goodness. The
remark
>>>you cited, Mace applies to the thick red Venice-Catlines only. But
>>>they apparently weren't very popular since he says: "but
they are
>>>hard to come by". Quite contrary to what you wrote, when Mace
>>>describes the goodness of colored strings, he says that: "the
red
>>>commonly rotten".
>>>Morover he mentions several string colors in common use:
"There are
>>>several sorts of coloured strings, very good; but the best (to my
>>>observation) was always the clear blue; the red, commomly rotten;
>>>sometimes green, very good."
>>>If we claim that the red loading prevented decay process, than why
>>>he says the red strings were commonly rotten?
>>>It seems to me that the dyeing (coloration) had nothing to do with
>>>decay preventing.
>>>
>>>>There are however, some more convincing examples that do look
like
>>>>loading.
>>>>On the same Art site, I saw another Caravaggio painting
including a
>>>>lute with just one red string, and it was the 7th. Now this
might
>>>>well be a loaded 7c-D.
>>>>http://www.caravaggio.rai.it/eng/opere.swf?currentImage=3
>>>
>>>The answer could be very easy - just because he had only one red
>>>bass string at home. But seriously, this prooves nothing yet.
>>>
>>>>Looking at my photo, it is difficult to tell whether the string
is
>>>>loaded or just coloured, unless you take account of the
relative
>>>>thinness.
>>>>http://tinyurl.com/cyvnyo
>>>
>>>Yes, absolutely I agree, the gauge of the bass strings and the
>>>bridge holes may signify the existence of loading. Italian
>>>traditional receipts for loading other popular items may be the
>>>other evidence. But we can't say anything more by now.
>>>
>>>>I think historical research should be used to open up new-old
>>>>possibilities of approaching the music, not to shut down any
other
>>>>personal investigation. It should just help us to refine our
choices.
>>>
>>>Absolutely! However we have to take the evidence as it is.
>>>
>>>>Nevertheless, I agree entirely with you. It would be such a
pity if
>>>>every lutensist adopted exactly the same solutions to all these
>>>>problems.
>>>>How much more interesting from the point of view of tone and
texture,
>>>>if players personal research come up with varied solutions.
>>>>That Ed Martin with Dan Larson refine the Gimped solution to
basses,
>>>>while Satoh and others develop their low tension hypothesis,
will, I
>>>>hope, result in less standardization, not more.
>>>>Even if Gimped strings were not around at that time (French
Baroque),
>>>>and low tension strings do not actually allow such a small
diameter
>>>>as shown by historic lute holes.
>>>> I still do hope to hear more lutenists adopting the loaded
>>>>solution, and perhaps demifile for later Baroque.
>>>>This has to be a personal choice for each lutenist, and some
>>>>clearly feel that strings contribute such a small part to their
>>>>overall performance, that synthetics will do, or are even
better. Not
>>>>that they are without their own problems: at least for French
>>>>Baroque: lack of homogeneity, tonal problems, lack of warmth,
and
>>>>loss of clarity; for which the lutensist may well be able to
>>>>compensate with the right technique and touch.
>>>
>>>I have to stress here, that I am not against loaded strings even if
>>>it may sound paradoxicaly. I admire Mimmo's great contribution
in
>>>finding the best strings for a modern lute player. I use his
strings
>>>very often and will advice them to other musicians as well. The
only
>>>difference between our attitude is the reason for doing so.
Assuming
>>>that if one day it definitely occurs that from historical point of
>>>view there is no such a thing as loaded strings ,will you take them
>>>off your lute and throw away? I won't, because if I choose
something
>>>it means that I like it best! What I am trying to say is that in
>>>strugling to be HIP one can forget the most important thing, namely
>>>the Music. This is our obligation as early musicians to search the
>>>truth about the past. As somebody posted recently "the theorbo
is
>>>made of dreams" I would add "so is the Music". And
will use any
>>>means to attain this including strings. I love pure gut on my
>>>renaissance lute, it's feeling and tone, but am open much more
to
>>>experiment with the baroque lute stringing (as Miguel Serdoura,
>>>Nigel North and many others do).
>>>>
>>>>It is the sort of contradictory status of a performer of early
music.
>>>>We are no longer steeped in a tradition that both constrains
and
>>>>frees us within its limits (or even to push at its limits and
>>>>innovate). How much each modern lutenist wants to stay within
those
>>>>limits (if he can be sure what they are) is a matter of his own
>>>>personal choice as an artist and a result of his own research
and
>>>>taste, but is he in a position to truly innovate, to create new
>>>>rules, within that tradition? Perhaps, that might differentiate
the
>>>>modern interpreter from the performer-composer of the time.
>>>
>>>Well, our possition is very strange, because the Old Ones never
>>>played early music (they always played something new), so in
>>>imitaiting them we should do the same but aren't able to. In my
>>>opinion the only solution is to express one's personality in
>>>individual way within the given limits, however breaking them will
>>>mean departing from the early music world. How long there will be a
>>>need for this type of performance? Who knows? But it seems that
>>>there are always people who want to listen to Bach, Mozart or
>>>Bethoven and they hopefuly won't disapear for ever.
>>>
>>>Best wishes
>>>Jaroslaw
>>>
>>>
>>>To get on or off this list see list information at
>>>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>
>>
>>
>
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