[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: b-lute debut
Sorry, David, for the sentence that I didn't conclude. I wanted to look up a word in the dictionary and then I forgot to finish it. But now here is, what I wanted to write first: It is very unusual for me, if I want to follow the playing of someone who plays left-handed. I don't know, what's the problem is, but possibly the only reason is, that some things you are used to seem to be normal. A real shock was my first visit of a friend who owns many lutes. When I wanted to try them - that was a real disaster. He also plays left-handed ... ;-) Best regards Markus David, nice to hear you play baroque lute, although I must say that it really means Weichenberger is really fine music and a little bit underestimated. But as far as I know we cannot be wholly sure, that these pieces are by Weichenberger, because there is only a W at the end of every piece. BTW - I don't think these pieces ar by Weiss. The source for the pieces, you uploaded, is PRAHA, Státní archív (CZ-Pa) Ms. RPI 504, cf. http://mss.slweiss.de/index.php?id=2type=msms=CZ-PaRPI504lang=eng and not PRAHA, Národní knihovna CSR - Universitní knihovna (CZ-Pu) Ms. II.Lb.27, which consist of fine music also, but for sure not by Weichenberger, but possibly by Eckstein - if A.V.E means A[nton] V[?] E[ckstein] at all. Best regards Markus David van Ooijen schrieb: Like Arto, I have fallen for an 11-course. Mine is made by Richard Berg, after Burckholtzer/Edlinger. It's 68cm and strung, naturally, all-gut with Gamut Pistoys on the basses. Last Wednesday I had my first concert, all music by Weichenberger, and here are the clips I made yesterday: Chaconne in a-moll http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiQSWBxUSAg Allemande in d-moll http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsGDtKGXHsg Courante in d-moll http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oaC8Rc6Rm4 Sarabande in d-moll http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XQfBIt-AkI David - still a lot to learn, but not bad for a beginner. ;-) -- Markus Lutz Schulstraße 11 88422 Bad Buchau Tel 0 75 82 / 92 62 89 Fax 0 75 82 / 92 62 90 Mail mar...@gmlutz.de To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Conradi Sonata
Dear Ed, Thanks a lot. This is extremely helpful and interesting as it sheds light on this confusing Conradi matter. I hope to listen to your recording someday! Regards, Nicolás -Mensaje original- De: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] En nombre de Edward Martin Enviado el: lunes, 11 de enero de 2010 12:25 Para: Nicolás Valencia; 'Daniel Shoskes' CC: 'LuteNet list'; baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Asunto: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Conradi Sonata Dear Nicolas and all, Thanks for inquiring about Conradi. You care correct, in that the pieces are from the 1724 edition.However, they are not by Johann Melchior or Johann Georg Conradi; they were published by Johann Gottfried Conradi, presumably the son of Johann Georg and brother to Johann Melchior Conradi. Whether or not Johann Gottfried was the composer is unclear, but he was the publisher. Prior to Art Ness' research, nothing was known about him. A year ago, I recorded the complete Conradi book, and in this CD, the program notes were composed partly by me, and Arthur Ness. Here are the notes from the CD, pertaining to what Art Nress discovered about Conradi: Two worthy exceptions are the compositions for eleven-course lute by Johann Gottfried Conradi from his Neue Lauten-Stücke als Preludes, Allemands, Courants, Gigues, Menuets etc. (Frankfurt an der Oder: Conradi, 1724), and by David Kellner from his XVI. [recte: XVII.] Auserlesene Lautenstücke bestehend in Phantasien, Chaconnen, Rondeau, Giga, Pastorel, Passe pied, Campanella, Sarabande, Aria Gavotte (Hamburg: Brandt, 1747). Little is known about Conradi. He was most likely a member of a dynastic family of musicians. No less than four persons named Johann Gottfried Conradi were prominently involved with music. One (1702-1776) was Danish royal mouth and tooth physician and a composer of popular operas. Another one (1820-1896) was a conductor, composer of choral music and author of a history of Norwegian music. Our Johann Gottfried (d. 1747) was most likely the son of the most famous musical Conradi, Johann Georg (1645-1699). He was director of music at the Bavarian court at Oettingen-Oettingen, but took leave between 1690 and 1698 to serve as director of the Theater am Gänsemarkt in Hamburg, the most important opera house in Germany. He was responsible for introducing and establishing the French operatic style in Germany. His troupe included the teenage Johann Mattheson who assisted at rehearsals and often took to the boards (before his voice broke, he sang female parts). A recent revival of Conradi's long lost opera Adriane enjoyed considerable critical acclaim. For many years the opera was known only from some arrangements of arias for Hamburger cithrinchen, attesting to the operas popular appeal. His son Johann Melchior succeeded him as music director in Oettingen-Oettingen. Our Conradi was principally occupied as a prolific publisher of learned works in medicine, botany, law, politics, geography, metaphysics, church history, etc. He was also a respondent to a dissertation on hydrope pectoris (dropsy) from the Viadrina, the university at Frankfurt an der Oder, suggesting that he held faculty status. Accordingly as a musician he surely must have collaborated with a distinguished student at the Viadrina from 1733 to 1738, the most famous and most prolific of the Bach sons, Carl Philipp Emmanuel Bach. While at the university, he (CPE Bach) supported himself as a harpsichord teacher and as director of various musical academies at the university. His works written at Frankfurt include nearly 30 solo-, duo-, and trio-sonatas, harpsichord concertos, etc., many intended for his own performance. Conradi could hardly have missed such youthful musical exuberance in his midst. The pieces contained in Conradi's book have many stylistically unique features. Although it is unclear if Conradi was the composer as well as publisher, the pieces seem to be composed by the same person and are of very high quality. At this point, we will have to consider the composer of these charming pieces to be anonymous, since we cannot establish whether the composer and publisher are one and the same. Surely they utilize many beautiful features, arpeggiation, long phrasing, thematic similarities, and surprising turns of harmony. The d minor Courante has a stunning effect: it begins in d minor, and the first section ends in the dominant A major, but commences into the next section with an opening statement in the distant key of F major. The effect is surprising, but gentle. The Suite in A Major achieves something seldom heard in other lute pieces in the same key. Whereas A major usually emits feelings of joy, stimulation or excitement, the A major pieces in this suite evoke feelings of tears and sadness. In particular the Allemande can only be characterized as filled with remorse and
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Reasons to tube...
Hi b-lute gang, to me the reasons to publish more or less unpolished lute performances in the Net have been very, very varying! [The following history and the links to the pieces can be seen in http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/wikla/mus/own/videos.html] In the beginning, April 2008, I just found some old (analogy tape) videos, a way to make them digital, and publish them; some stuff from years 1992 to 2000. Did not think much, what I am doing. Then I found out I can use my digital pocket camera to make videos, too. And the first take happened to be a proof to RT that I am not anti-Ukranian, I recorded some folk music arr's by him. :-) It worked. I became eager to make my own arrangements: Tarantellas, song intabulations, Biber's Passagalia, Christmas carols, etc. And to show that those are playable, I also made tube versions to show, where to begin, and play it better. Then I started working with theorbo/chitarrone solos after years of continuo playing. Especially interesting was to be the French stuff, and especially especially Lully arrengements made in Lully's time. I put the tabs and also many of the original models by Lully to the Net. This was open propaganda for Lully's music. Then - after years of neglecting I found the transitional tunings. Great stuff it was! But it also transferred me quickly to the d-minor tuning - as it did also the 17th century lutenists! ;-) And there also was one very critical comment, very well formulated, by a certain 62Konrad, which made me want to find a better recording machine - better soundwise. So during last month I've been testing nearly everything - and still put it in the Net... Of course each of us, who write or send music to the net, know that the stuff will be there for ever. And a certain Narcissos factor cannot be denied... ;-) And of that: my today's piece is Les Tricotins - Gavotte, a medley of two versions of the same(?) piece: Les Tricotins (ms. Milleran, f.29v), and Gavotte (ms. Kalmar 21068, f.2r): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edVzZmX4BzI All the best, ;-)) Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: three more Lute Lessons
On Sun, Jan 10, 2010 at 11:06 PM, Peter Nightingale n...@pobox.com wrote: At some time in the past there was content in the little windows that pop up in your youtube videos. Now they appear to be empty. Somehow, my These are called annotations, and I make a few for each piece. Perhaps there is a way of switching them on and off. David impression is that the messages evaporated after I upgraded my to Mac OS Snow leopard. It happens in Safari, FireFox, and also if I download the videos in flv format. Most importantly of course: thanks for the recordings! Peter. On Sun, 10 Jan 2010, David van Ooijen wrote: I had a productive weekend (no concerts ...), so there are also three more Lute Lessons (with annotations) on www.youtube.com/lutelessons Also embedded in my website for those who cannot reach YouTube. David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html the next auto-quote is: True virtue is life under the direction of reason. (Baruch Spinoza) /\/\ Peter Nightingale Telephone (401) 874-5882 Department of Physics, East Hall Fax (401) 874-2380 University of Rhode Island Kingston, RI 02881 -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl ***
[LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary
There seem to be several subject headers around dealing with what this, I'll stick to this one. I've had my fair share of lessons and I teach. Lessons or commentary from fellow students at a conservatory are not for people with a fragile ego, but all comments are fair. People know what they talk about, can clearly hear and see what's wrong with your playing and will say so. And it's good they do, for that's the only way to become better. The point is the comments are fair and made by people with knowledge. Not everybody posting comments on YouTube is fair or knows what he/she is writing about. Or, if I play a concert, people come to me and say they liked. it. Of course I'm flattered, but what did they like? Probably something completely different from what I tried to put into the music. That's no problem, but the same is true with criticism: what it is they didn't like, is not always a valid point for me. I might lose some of my audience, but I cannot please everybody. It is important to know who is saying something, to be able to judge it well. I had a little girl of six in my audience last Wednesday who thought it was utterly boring what I was doing, but her sister of eight just loved it. Not because of the music, but because I am her guitar teacher, I waved to her during the concert and was playing _such_ a funny guitar! She had a great time despite the boring music. Now for us commenting on each other's YouTube videos. Valery made the point he knows what's there to improve in his playing and he doesn't need to be reminded (sorry if I oversimplify his statement or have it wrong. It is a point I want to make that actually does not need Valery's playing, it is not about his playing at all, but the example was conveniently at hand). Sorry, Valery, perhaps you don't, because I think if you really did know what is there to improve and how to improve it, you'd change it within weeks or months. One of my first videos had too many funny faces, grimaces. I withdrew it. My debut Baroque lute videos of last weekend received kind comments, I thank you all, but I know my tone has to improve, not all is quite steady and some ornaments were downright sloppy. Many of the lute players on YouTube play not legato enough. Or should we blame their microphones? Many don't hold notes to give them their 'proper' length, or is that debatable? Anyway, do I tell them directly? No, because I don't know them. I teach real people. People facing me, personalities I know. I know their ambitions and their sensitivities. Both are needed to find the right touch in making comments on their playing. What use is there if someone hears from me his playing is not legato enough and he should hold the bass, when all he wants is a pat on the back and praise for his brave efforts? Sorry, got carried away. Real theorbo pupil coming in half an hour. David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary
I am a hundred percent with you David (and Valéry), carried away or not ! Jean-Marie = == En réponse au message du 11-01-2010, 10:33:41 == There seem to be several subject headers around dealing with what this, I'll stick to this one. I've had my fair share of lessons and I teach. Lessons or commentary from fellow students at a conservatory are not for people with a fragile ego, but all comments are fair. People know what they talk about, can clearly hear and see what's wrong with your playing and will say so. And it's good they do, for that's the only way to become better. The point is the comments are fair and made by people with knowledge. Not everybody posting comments on YouTube is fair or knows what he/she is writing about. Or, if I play a concert, people come to me and say they liked. it. Of course I'm flattered, but what did they like? Probably something completely different from what I tried to put into the music. That's no problem, but the same is true with criticism: what it is they didn't like, is not always a valid point for me. I might lose some of my audience, but I cannot please everybody. It is important to know who is saying something, to be able to judge it well. I had a little girl of six in my audience last Wednesday who thought it was utterly boring what I was doing, but her sister of eight just loved it. Not because of the music, but because I am her guitar teacher, I waved to her during the concert and was playing _such_ a funny guitar! She had a great time despite the boring music. Now for us commenting on each other's YouTube videos. Valery made the point he knows what's there to improve in his playing and he doesn't need to be reminded (sorry if I oversimplify his statement or have it wrong. It is a point I want to make that actually does not need Valery's playing, it is not about his playing at all, but the example was conveniently at hand). Sorry, Valery, perhaps you don't, because I think if you really did know what is there to improve and how to improve it, you'd change it within weeks or months. One of my first videos had too many funny faces, grimaces. I withdrew it. My debut Baroque lute videos of last weekend received kind comments, I thank you all, but I know my tone has to improve, not all is quite steady and some ornaments were downright sloppy. Many of the lute players on YouTube play not legato enough. Or should we blame their microphones? Many don't hold notes to give them their 'proper' length, or is that debatable? Anyway, do I tell them directly? No, because I don't know them. I teach real people. People facing me, personalities I know. I know their ambitions and their sensitivities. Both are needed to find the right touch in making comments on their playing. What use is there if someone hears from me his playing is not legato enough and he should hold the bass, when all he wants is a pat on the back and praise for his brave efforts? Sorry, got carried away. Real theorbo pupil coming in half an hour. David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --- Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus mail. Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte.
[LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary
Sauvage Valéry wrote: So I'm not sure Youtube is the place for constructive commentary, but more for sharing music we love I've put up some youtube videos. Is it folly, vanity, lack of self-awareness? Sometimes it's like a goal to aim for - to choose a piece, practice it, video it, and upload it as a sort of resolution... and then move on! Sometimes the little video I have uploaded has been an example of something. Like Valéry, I know (or think I know) much of what is wrong with my playing. And - like most players of musical instruments, ever - I'm not a professional, just an amateur trying to play as well as I can. And so I know nothing of, nor have any skills at all in the presentation and stagecraft of music - of communicating to an audience. But youtube doesn't have an audience in that sense - just people dipping in and out watching perhaps just a few seconds and then clicking away. And a video of a farting cat on a unicycle will always get the big hits anyway. But I do agree with David that people constructive criticism could make me, and others play better (and perhaps Valéry too?) - and see things in the music and interpret some things better and offer technical solutions etc etc (probably quite a lot of etcs). After a very long time I've been looking at some English lute music and the ornaments and it would be really interesting to get comments from people who are steeped in all that. I'm not a fan of ning (Cuthbert is now friends with Melanie etc) but I could see the use of something like a ning site dedicated only to constructive criticism of performances lute/allied plucked intruments - where you have to sign up to comment and preferably you sign up on the understanding that you submit something. And each person would indicate: beginner, amateur, professional in their performances and in their comments. Better still would be link from here to somewhere dedicated to constructive criticism if that is what you actually wanted. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Conradi Sonata
From: Peter Martin peter.l...@gmail.com There was a gentleman named Igor a little while ago, who was not afraid to offer adverse (rude, actually) opinions on YouTube lute videos. He was hounded off the list as a troll. Nobody has dared say anything since. P I believe I have taken umbrage at the quality of T.Satoh's recorded playing, on a number of occasions. RT == http://polyhymnion.org/swv Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes. 2010/1/10 Franz Mechsner [1]franz.mechs...@northumbria.ac.uk A little observation: as a rule, all performances are commented with exalted praize only (Welldonewonderful...) plus silence on anything which might be improved or on which one might be of different opinion - in strong contrast to the discussions where we can learn so much from each other... -- -- References 1. mailto:franz.mechs...@northumbria.ac.uk To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary
I think it depends on the purpose for which players post their videos. Stuart often posts some of the Foscarini pieces I am transcribing and I'm sure he wont mind my saying that they are not polished professional performances. Often they are done in a hurry as well. But I find them enormously helpful - because I can hear someone else playing them and think about ways of improving them. I am pleased that he thinks they are worth exploring. The same is true of the things on my web site - people's comments and queries are invaluable. Of course we should avoid saying really tactless things (and perhaps I am sometimes guilty of this). But I think we should be free to express an opinion. At least as far as this list is concerned we are surely all friends. Monica - Original Message - From: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: Sauvage Valéry sauvag...@orange.fr Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, January 11, 2010 10:42 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary Sauvage Valéry wrote: So I'm not sure Youtube is the place for constructive commentary, but more for sharing music we love I've put up some youtube videos. Is it folly, vanity, lack of self-awareness? Sometimes it's like a goal to aim for - to choose a piece, practice it, video it, and upload it as a sort of resolution... and then move on! Sometimes the little video I have uploaded has been an example of something. Like Valéry, I know (or think I know) much of what is wrong with my playing. And - like most players of musical instruments, ever - I'm not a professional, just an amateur trying to play as well as I can. And so I know nothing of, nor have any skills at all in the presentation and stagecraft of music - of communicating to an audience. But youtube doesn't have an audience in that sense - just people dipping in and out watching perhaps just a few seconds and then clicking away. And a video of a farting cat on a unicycle will always get the big hits anyway. But I do agree with David that people constructive criticism could make me, and others play better (and perhaps Valéry too?) - and see things in the music and interpret some things better and offer technical solutions etc etc (probably quite a lot of etcs). After a very long time I've been looking at some English lute music and the ornaments and it would be really interesting to get comments from people who are steeped in all that. I'm not a fan of ning (Cuthbert is now friends with Melanie etc) but I could see the use of something like a ning site dedicated only to constructive criticism of performances lute/allied plucked intruments - where you have to sign up to comment and preferably you sign up on the understanding that you submit something. And each person would indicate: beginner, amateur, professional in their performances and in their comments. Better still would be link from here to somewhere dedicated to constructive criticism if that is what you actually wanted. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary
I'm sorry but my english doesn't allow me to make great dissertations... but I agree with David point of view, and I think constructive commentary should be done in private message, and as he said by people knowing what they talk about. I remember very constructive messages shared by Gert de Vries, helping me a lot... ;-) Val -Message d'origine- De : lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] De la part de David van Ooijen Envoyé : lundi 11 janvier 2010 10:32 À : lute Objet : [LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary There seem to be several subject headers around dealing with what this, I'll stick to this one. I've had my fair share of lessons and I teach. Lessons or commentary from fellow students at a conservatory are not for people with a fragile ego, but all comments are fair. People know what they talk about, can clearly hear and see what's wrong with your playing and will say so. And it's good they do, for that's the only way to become better. The point is the comments are fair and made by people with knowledge. Not everybody posting comments on YouTube is fair or knows what he/she is writing about. Or, if I play a concert, people come to me and say they liked. it. Of course I'm flattered, but what did they like? Probably something completely different from what I tried to put into the music. That's no problem, but the same is true with criticism: what it is they didn't like, is not always a valid point for me. I might lose some of my audience, but I cannot please everybody. It is important to know who is saying something, to be able to judge it well. I had a little girl of six in my audience last Wednesday who thought it was utterly boring what I was doing, but her sister of eight just loved it. Not because of the music, but because I am her guitar teacher, I waved to her during the concert and was playing _such_ a funny guitar! She had a great time despite the boring music. Now for us commenting on each other's YouTube videos. Valery made the point he knows what's there to improve in his playing and he doesn't need to be reminded (sorry if I oversimplify his statement or have it wrong. It is a point I want to make that actually does not need Valery's playing, it is not about his playing at all, but the example was conveniently at hand). Sorry, Valery, perhaps you don't, because I think if you really did know what is there to improve and how to improve it, you'd change it within weeks or months. One of my first videos had too many funny faces, grimaces. I withdrew it. My debut Baroque lute videos of last weekend received kind comments, I thank you all, but I know my tone has to improve, not all is quite steady and some ornaments were downright sloppy. Many of the lute players on YouTube play not legato enough. Or should we blame their microphones? Many don't hold notes to give them their 'proper' length, or is that debatable? Anyway, do I tell them directly? No, because I don't know them. I teach real people. People facing me, personalities I know. I know their ambitions and their sensitivities. Both are needed to find the right touch in making comments on their playing. What use is there if someone hears from me his playing is not legato enough and he should hold the bass, when all he wants is a pat on the back and praise for his brave efforts? Sorry, got carried away. Real theorbo pupil coming in half an hour. David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary
I have a very unconstructive commentary to David and Jean-Marie, you both are holding your lute on the wrong side ! Val ;- -Message d'origine- De : lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] De la part de Jean-Marie Poirier Envoyé : lundi 11 janvier 2010 10:45 À : Lute Objet : [LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary I am a hundred percent with you David (and Valéry), carried away or not ! Jean-Marie = == En réponse au message du 11-01-2010, 10:33:41 == There seem to be several subject headers around dealing with what this, I'll stick to this one. I've had my fair share of lessons and I teach. Lessons or commentary from fellow students at a conservatory are not for people with a fragile ego, but all comments are fair. People know what they talk about, can clearly hear and see what's wrong with your playing and will say so. And it's good they do, for that's the only way to become better. The point is the comments are fair and made by people with knowledge. Not everybody posting comments on YouTube is fair or knows what he/she is writing about. Or, if I play a concert, people come to me and say they liked. it. Of course I'm flattered, but what did they like? Probably something completely different from what I tried to put into the music. That's no problem, but the same is true with criticism: what it is they didn't like, is not always a valid point for me. I might lose some of my audience, but I cannot please everybody. It is important to know who is saying something, to be able to judge it well. I had a little girl of six in my audience last Wednesday who thought it was utterly boring what I was doing, but her sister of eight just loved it. Not because of the music, but because I am her guitar teacher, I waved to her during the concert and was playing _such_ a funny guitar! She had a great time despite the boring music. Now for us commenting on each other's YouTube videos. Valery made the point he knows what's there to improve in his playing and he doesn't need to be reminded (sorry if I oversimplify his statement or have it wrong. It is a point I want to make that actually does not need Valery's playing, it is not about his playing at all, but the example was conveniently at hand). Sorry, Valery, perhaps you don't, because I think if you really did know what is there to improve and how to improve it, you'd change it within weeks or months. One of my first videos had too many funny faces, grimaces. I withdrew it. My debut Baroque lute videos of last weekend received kind comments, I thank you all, but I know my tone has to improve, not all is quite steady and some ornaments were downright sloppy. Many of the lute players on YouTube play not legato enough. Or should we blame their microphones? Many don't hold notes to give them their 'proper' length, or is that debatable? Anyway, do I tell them directly? No, because I don't know them. I teach real people. People facing me, personalities I know. I know their ambitions and their sensitivities. Both are needed to find the right touch in making comments on their playing. What use is there if someone hears from me his playing is not legato enough and he should hold the bass, when all he wants is a pat on the back and praise for his brave efforts? Sorry, got carried away. Real theorbo pupil coming in half an hour. David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --- Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus mail. Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. Nˆ¶‰®‡¶–+±çŠËú™«¢v†ÛÿüÁËj»¢ëyÛÁ·–ëiÙŸøuì
[LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary
I have a very unconstructive commentary to David and Jean-Marie, you both are holding your lute on the wrong side ! Val ;- maybe these two geniuses found out how to hold the instrument properly - and the rest of us holds it to the wrong side! :-) F -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary
maybe these two geniuses found out how to hold the instrument properly - and the rest of us holds it to the wrong side! :-) Yes, that’s probably right, because compared with them my own play sounds quite poorly. Jörg :-) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: three more Lute Lessons
I just watched all these and was really impressed. It is so helpful to be able to see close up exactly what the right and left hands are doing. There is seldom the the opportunity to do this. David - maybe the next time you have a spare weekend you could do one or two baroque guitar pieces. Just for me. Gentlemen - whatever you do when making your recordings please video yourself so we can see how you actually play the music. Much more interesting than admiring what you are wearing. Monica - Original Message - From: David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com To: lutelist Net Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2010 5:49 PM Subject: [LUTE] three more Lute Lessons I had a productive weekend (no concerts ...), so there are also three more Lute Lessons (with annotations) on www.youtube.com/lutelessons Also embedded in my website for those who cannot reach YouTube. David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Conradi Sonata
Ok, I started the ball rolling and was going to let it rest, but I feel compelled to make a few comments (realizing that this discussion is now across 2 threads). 1) Franz, please do have the courage of your convictions. You made a comment that was intended to be critical, even if couched in indirect terms ( I realize this group includes many non-native English speakers, but I think the most appropriate internet term is snarky). Either you don't like amateurs posting about their videos or, feeling insecure about criticizing them yourself, you wish others would do so on the group. It's OK, I'm a big boy with a thick skin. You mentioned academic criticism in the other thread; I think you'll find that the lute amateur world is populated by many people with advanced degrees and training in other fields that has not left them fragile to both constructive and harsh words. There are at least 2 other surgeons I know who play seriously on baroque lute (in addition to several other doctors and lawyers) and you know that our egos are second to none! 2) I've posted before about my reasons for making utube videos and I'm not going to rehash it all again (the archives has a good search function). In brief, it's an excellent tool for self examination, for sharing my playing with friends who will likely never see me play in person and, as someone who gets to play in real concerts maybe once or twice a year, a great motivation to work on new rep. There is no doubt that putting lute videos out in the ether also introduces people to the instrument for the first time and I've had much correspondence from people interested in trying the lute after seeing my videos. And there IS the ego stroking component, I've never been ashamed to admit that. Also, like David with his facial expressions, I've picked up that I breathe too heavily, sometimes sway too much and pinch courses together with my left hand when I barre, none of which I would have been able to tell without regular lessons or the videos. 3) Public comments posted in youtube are seldom helpful (either good or bad). I couldn't care less that some people are offended by the light bouncing off my bald head, or (sorry Franz) that they don't like me reading from a score having a stiff elderly demeanor (sorry, in my profession stiff and elderly don't often go together). Similarly, when people have commented how great I am and that my playing is better than Barto, I know it's not true. I thank them and then refer them to videos and recordings that really ARE great. On the other hand, I have received many private messages, from both amateurs and professionals, that had very helpful and constructive criticism. I know I have a long way to go on the instrument, but looking at my videos from 2 years ago, 1 year ago and 6 months ago, I feel that I've made progress. 4) Can watching yourself play lead to self improvement or does it just reinforce bad technique? Everyone's different. Watching myself, I think that the major things I need to work on are a) consistent tone production, especially controlling the difference in attack between gut and synthetic in the basses b) more horizontal playing of longer lines, with greater use of dynamic control and a lighter touch on the less important notes c) rapid release of tension in the right hand fingers to allow greater speed in the faster dance movements d) holding notes longer in the left hand when doing so creates effective harmonies and suspensions e) these are the general themes; each piece or style will have it's own deficiencies (eg. more variety in the inegale for the French baroque music (thanks Wilke!), a freer strum on my baroque guitar) 5) There are many subscribers to my utube channel who presumably are interested when I have new videos. Consequently I haven't posted to this list every time there is a new one and tried to be selective (I post more on the baroque lute list about baroque specific issues). I thought my 11 course gut vs 13 course synthetic video would be relevant given the multiple discussions about pros and cons of models and strings. I also thought that so few people have heard Conradi's music, that an intro might be fun. 6) Finally, sorry you are not a fan on the ning group Stuart, but as I written in a few moderator posts, the whole friend thing is just about meaningless for a group such as [1]lutegroup.ning.com . It still has the advantages of being moderated and having the ability to upload and share files. Danny (I'll close the door to my office and have a good cry now g) On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 12:46 AM, Franz Mechsner [2]franz.mechs...@northumbria.ac.uk wrote: Hi Chris, It's not only about the lute... The issue is really important and goes deep - how to be open and
[LUTE] Elizabeth Kenney CD
On the subject of professionals who really DO play well, I've been listening to Liz Kenney's new CD, Flying Horse-Music from the ML Lutebook. Excellent sound and performance. Here's the Amazon link that has sound excerpts: [1]http://www.amazon.com/Flying-Horse-Music-ML-Lutebook/dp/B002HESQLW/ ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8s=musicqid=1263221478sr=8-1 Danny -- References 1. http://www.amazon.com/Flying-Horse-Music-ML-Lutebook/dp/B002HESQLW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8s=musicqid=1263221478sr=8-1 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: b-lute debut
David, nice to hear you play baroque lute, although I must say that it really means Weichenberger is really fine music and a little bit underestimated. But as far as I know we cannot be wholly sure, that these pieces are by Weichenberger, because there is only a W at the end of every piece. BTW - I don't think these pieces ar by Weiss. The source for the pieces, you uploaded, is PRAHA, Státní archív (CZ-Pa) Ms. RPI 504, cf. http://mss.slweiss.de/index.php?id=2type=msms=CZ-PaRPI504lang=eng and not PRAHA, Národní knihovna CSR - Universitní knihovna (CZ-Pu) Ms. II.Lb.27, which consist of fine music also, but for sure not by Weichenberger, but possibly by Eckstein - if A.V.E means A[nton] V[?] E[ckstein] at all. Best regards Markus David van Ooijen schrieb: Like Arto, I have fallen for an 11-course. Mine is made by Richard Berg, after Burckholtzer/Edlinger. It's 68cm and strung, naturally, all-gut with Gamut Pistoys on the basses. Last Wednesday I had my first concert, all music by Weichenberger, and here are the clips I made yesterday: Chaconne in a-moll http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiQSWBxUSAg Allemande in d-moll http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsGDtKGXHsg Courante in d-moll http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oaC8Rc6Rm4 Sarabande in d-moll http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XQfBIt-AkI David - still a lot to learn, but not bad for a beginner. ;-) -- Markus Lutz Schulstraße 11 88422 Bad Buchau Tel 0 75 82 / 92 62 89 Fax 0 75 82 / 92 62 90 Mail mar...@gmlutz.de To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Conradi Sonata
Well, let me just say that I really appreciate the videos you and others put up. I come across some interesting lute repertoire that I may or may not transcribe for guitar ... and some of this music puts me one more step towards ordering a Liuto Forte. Thanks! Best, Mark -Original Message- From: Daniel Shoskes kidneykut...@gmail.com To: Franz Mechsner franz.mechs...@northumbria.ac.uk Cc: chriswilke chriswi...@yahoo.com; Ed Durbrow edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp; LuteNet list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Mon, Jan 11, 2010 9:44 am Subject: [LUTE] Re: Conradi Sonata Ok, I started the ball rolling and was going to let it rest, but I feel compelled to make a few comments (realizing that this discussion is now across 2 threads). 1) Franz, please do have the courage of your convictions. You made a comment that was intended to be critical, even if couched in indirect terms ( I realize this group includes many non-native English speakers, but I think the most appropriate internet term is snarky). Either you don't like amateurs posting about their videos or, feeling insecure about criticizing them yourself, you wish others would do so on the group. It's OK, I'm a big boy with a thick skin. You mentioned academic criticism in the other thread; I think you'll find that the lute amateur world is populated by many people with advanced degrees and training in other fields that has not left them fragile to both constructive and harsh words. There are at least 2 other surgeons I know who play seriously on baroque lute (in addition to several other doctors and lawyers) and you know that our egos are second to none! 2) I've posted before about my reasons for making utube videos and I'm not going to rehash it all again (the archives has a good search function). In brief, it's an excellent tool for self examination, for sharing my playing with friends who will likely never see me play in person and, as someone who gets to play in real concerts maybe once or twice a year, a great motivation to work on new rep. There is no doubt that putting lute videos out in the ether also introduces people to the instrument for the first time and I've had much correspondence from people interested in trying the lute after seeing my videos. And there IS the ego stroking component, I've never been ashamed to admit that. Also, like David with his facial expressions, I've picked up that I breathe too heavily, sometimes sway too much and pinch courses together with my left hand when I barre, none of which I would have been able to tell without regular lessons or the videos. 3) Public comments posted in youtube are seldom helpful (either good or bad). I couldn't care less that some people are offended by the light bouncing off my bald head, or (sorry Franz) that they don't like me reading from a score having a stiff elderly demeanor (sorry, in my profession stiff and elderly don't often go together). Similarly, when people have commented how great I am and that my playing is better than Barto, I know it's not true. I thank them and then refer them to videos and recordings that really ARE great. On the other hand, I have received many private messages, from both amateurs and professionals, that had very helpful and constructive criticism. I know I have a long way to go on the instrument, but looking at my videos from 2 years ago, 1 year ago and 6 months ago, I feel that I've made progress. 4) Can watching yourself play lead to self improvement or does it just reinforce bad technique? Everyone's different. Watching myself, I think that the major things I need to work on are a) consistent tone production, especially controlling the difference in attack between gut and synthetic in the basses b) more horizontal playing of longer lines, with greater use of dynamic control and a lighter touch on the less important notes c) rapid release of tension in the right hand fingers to allow greater speed in the faster dance movements d) holding notes longer in the left hand when doing so creates effective harmonies and suspensions e) these are the general themes; each piece or style will have it's own deficiencies (eg. more variety in the inegale for the French baroque music (thanks Wilke!), a freer strum on my baroque guitar) 5) There are many subscribers to my utube channel who presumably are interested when I have new videos. Consequently I haven't posted to this list every time there is a new one and tried to be selective (I post more on the baroque lute list about baroque specific issues). I thought my 11 course gut vs 13 course synthetic video would be relevant given the multiple discussions about pros and cons of models and strings. I also thought that so few people have heard Conradi's music, that an intro might be fun. 6) Finally,
[LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary
Stuart wrote: I could see the use of something like a ning site dedicated only to constructive criticism of performances lute/allied plucked intruments - where you have to sign up to comment and preferably you sign up on the understanding that you submit something. And each person would indicate: beginner, amateur, professional in their performances and in their comments. Better still would be link from here to somewhere dedicated to constructive criticism if that is what you actually wanted. Great idea! Stephen Arndt To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary
This has been an instructive thread. Recently I've posted a few short pieces on youtube (edward18121) but haven't mentioned this to anyone but a few friends. Initially, I thought my motivation for doing this would be to get some constructive critical commentary, especially since I don't have a teacher yet. But now I think my primary motivation is 1): simply to let friends see me playing (before I develop the confidence to play for them live), 2): 'force' myself to work on something enough to play through it in front of a microphone, dealing with the nervousness that even just that incurs, and, most importantly 3): try to learn from the experience some things I can do to improve my playing. Youtube is a wonderful resource. I'm grateful to those who post - I can learn much from their videos. And I'm now grateful for the opportunity to post and learn from that experience. Comments or not, learning occurs, I believe. Ned -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary
Valery, My take on YouTube is that you take your chances when you post a video. Its an open forum and anyone can make suggestions whether they are constructive or not. (Yes, there are some jerks on there. Hopefully the folks on this list will be more respectful and helpful.) For someone posting videos who is not interested in anyone else's thoughts, the comment feature can be easily disabled. If one is only interested in hearing adoring remarks, that sort of service is rarely free. ;-) Years ago I had a roommate who took a job as an art teacher at a high school. As part of the job, he was required to coach the track team. Since he had never previously participated in any track and field events in his life, I asked how on earth the school thought he was remotely qualified to do this. (The real answer is that they didn't care whether he was qualified or not. They were getting someone to fill two positions for one salary.) My friend's answer was, No matter how good or bad I am at actually doing the stuff, I can offer the kids one thing they can never do for themselves. I can watch they're doing without being them. Whatever he did must have worked. He went to a couple of coaching clinics and watched some coaching videos. He then went on to lead his team to the state championship - a feat the crew had never achieved before - and do it again twice more in the five years he worked there. I've taken that as a great example for my own teaching. Even more importantly, I've taken it to heart in my own continuing role as a perpetual student. Chris --- On Sun, 1/10/10, Sauvage Valéry sauvag...@orange.fr wrote: From: Sauvage Valéry sauvag...@orange.fr Subject: [LUTE] constructive critical commentary To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Sunday, January 10, 2010, 9:47 PM About constructive critical commentary, as a multi Youtube recording luteninst, I know very well what's wrong in my videos, I'm working very hard to try do do better, and of course I accept criticism but very often I know the could be better points before being told by someone, and what I would need in fact is a (or many...) good master class(es) with some of the lute gods as Paul, Bob, Ron or Nigel (sorry I miss some other names but... List is long) So I don't wait any technical comment, but I'm always glad to answer to kind words people would spend time to write, even if it is not useful for my lute technic... And I'm afraid critical commentary sometimes posted are often not constructive, but acerb (then I'm sorry but I remove them at once ! Lol) So I'm not sure Youtube is the place for constructive commentary, but more for sharing music we love without pretention (I hope for my sake) I just got today a beautiful theorbo made by Didier Jarny, a small instrument for solo music (70cm/120cm) so now working on some Kapsberger's Canarios, and it is great fun ! V. -Message d'origine- De : lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] De la part de nedma...@aol.com Envoyé : dimanche 10 janvier 2010 22:55 À : franz.mechs...@northumbria.ac.uk; edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp; kidneykut...@gmail.com; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Objet : [LUTE] Re: Conradi Sonata To repeat my comments to the group (since I replied privately inadvertently), I thought the music quite lovely, and very nicely played. Franz's point concerning the absence of constructive critical commentary may be pertinent. Since I'm working on Renaissance lute only, and am not familiar with Baroque lute literature or technique, I'll leave it to other Baroque players to consider Franz's point. Ned -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: RCM Catalogue
Thank - you [and thank-you Waling who also replied]. That makes sense and matches up with what I can see a the bottom of my own guitar. Monica - Original Message - From: [1]Trovatrice To: [2]Monica Hall Sent: Monday, January 11, 2010 3:01 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] RCM Catalogue You are correct Monica. The tailblock is the piece inside the body, at the far (bottom) end of the lower bout, to which the two side pieces (ribs) are glued (sometimes with a decorative vertical strip at the seam). If you were to add a strap peg (or as you have speculated, a series of outboard string pegs, as on a Portuguese guitar) you would drill/screw through the relatively thin side ribs and into the tailblock for support. Trovatrice On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 9:02 AM, Monica Hall [3]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: I wonder whether many people have seen the Royal College of Music's catalogue of stringed instruments in their museum It is Absolutely Fabulous. I also have a query for those of you who are more expert than I am on instrument construction. I assume that the tailblock is a block at the bottom end of the instrument (opposite end from the pegbox). I have been reading about the Tessler guitar (on which my guitar is based). It says The vertical chequerboard strip at the rib joint on the tailblock stops short at the top strip of the ribs, the remainder being filled by a plain wooden inlay. This as well as some lifting and distortion of the tailblock, ribs and front suggests that there was a stage when the strings were hitched to the tail. The bone nut is scalloped between the strings which may disguise the modification of the original paire notches. I'm not sure what all this means but could it imply that the instrument was at one stage wire strung? It only gives front and back views of the instrument - not the bottom end. Monica -- To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:trovatr...@gmail.com 2. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 3. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary
Thank you ever so much, Franz ! We, lefties, had to wait all these years until someone - you - understood at last and had the guts to acknowledge this fact :-))) Best wishes, Jean-Marie = == En réponse au message du 11-01-2010, 14:13:59 == I have a very unconstructive commentary to David and Jean-Marie, you both are holding your lute on the wrong side ! Val ;- maybe these two geniuses found out how to hold the instrument properly - and the rest of us holds it to the wrong side! :-) F
[LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary
Thank you ever so much, Franz ! We, lefties, had to wait all these years But how do you do it? Do you also rewrite the tablatures so that they run from right to left? I always watch your youtube clips in a little mirror because otherwise it would confuse me.. Best wishes B To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Conradi Sonata
Daniel, I didn't know Conradi's music so thanks for sharing these beautiful pieces. I'd love to hear that Barto's bootleg! I looked at the New Grove Dictionary of Music and found there are two Conradi. Based on the publication date you give (1724), I guess these works are from Johann Melchior, son of Johann Georg, both Kapellmeisters at Oettingen. Nonetheless, the New Grove doesn't mention any lute works by them... Interestingly, it talks about an aria transcribed for cithrinchen (a lute-like instrument popular in Hamburg in the late 17th century) by Johann Georg. This is something new to me too, as I didn't know this instrument either (I've read it's some kind of bell-shaped cittern). Regards, Nicolás To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Elizabeth Kenney CD
I made a tinyurl for that Amazon link, since it's getting broken over multiple lines and messing up the link for me: http://tinyurl.com/kenny-lute-cd The Hyperion website also has good sample clips (I really like Hyperion's website): http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/al.asp?al=CDA67776f=kenny Thanks for the pointer! Looks like a great disc. JB On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 9:53 AM, Daniel Shoskes kidneykut...@gmail.com wrote: On the subject of professionals who really DO play well, I've been listening to Liz Kenney's new CD, Flying Horse-Music from the ML Lutebook. Excellent sound and performance. Here's the Amazon link that has sound excerpts: [1]http://www.amazon.com/Flying-Horse-Music-ML-Lutebook/dp/B002HESQLW/ ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8s=musicqid=1263221478sr=8-1 Danny -- References 1. http://www.amazon.com/Flying-Horse-Music-ML-Lutebook/dp/B002HESQLW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8s=musicqid=1263221478sr=8-1 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Now that we have all this useful information, it would be nice to be able to do something with it. (Actually, it can be emotionally fulfilling just to get information. This is usually only true, however, if you have the social life of a kumquat.) --UNIX Programmer's Manual
[LUTE] Odd problem with the list
Hi! I've recently noticed that I seem to be missing the original posts on a number of threads. The giveaway is that I get a lot of messages beginning with Re: but no sign of the original post. For example, the current thread entitled Conradi Sonata. And yes, I've checked my spam box! Has anyone else had this problem? Is there anything I can do about it? All my other email seems to be arriving. Thanks, and Happy New Year! Martin To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Conradi Sonata
A facsimile of the Conradi Lute music is available from TREE EDITION www.Tree-Edition.com Nicolás Valencia schrieb: Daniel, I didn't know Conradi's music so thanks for sharing these beautiful pieces. I'd love to hear that Barto's bootleg! I looked at the New Grove Dictionary of Music and found there are two Conradi. Based on the publication date you give (1724), I guess these works are from Johann Melchior, son of Johann Georg, both Kapellmeisters at Oettingen. Nonetheless, the New Grove doesn't mention any lute works by them... Interestingly, it talks about an aria transcribed for cithrinchen (a lute-like instrument popular in Hamburg in the late 17th century) by Johann Georg. This is something new to me too, as I didn't know this instrument either (I've read it's some kind of bell-shaped cittern). Regards, Nicolás To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html .
[LUTE] Re: constructive critical Three more
I have a very unconstructive commentary to David and Jean-Marie, you both are holding your lute on the wrong side ! This is actually a point of serious interest. Normally, watching someone of opposite hand/eye orientation do a familiar task is disorienting, (at least on the immediate perceptive response level) hence the historic prejudice against those of minority orientation (obviously, mostly lefties) Some practical group problems- a line of violinists getting poked by every 20th person. Watching one of David's excellent videos recently I got a visual orientation epiphany- I held up my own two hands (air lute) opposite his on the computer screen, and felt that I was being guided- as if through a mirrored reflection- and all fell into place. No more dizzy feeling of wrong sided playing, but instead an immediate, sudden, and final locking into place. I don't recall how often watching oneself in a mirror for self-correction in lute study has been recommended, but I am sure it has been done. I will now advise my own students to try both that and observe David's videos with the mirrored visual guidance state of mind. This form of self observance is of course standard in dance studios and martial arts schools. Oh yes, nothing left-handed about the sound. Clean, but gutsy- played instructively rather than concerty which of course is to the point. Good work on the new Baroque lute debut postings, too. Dan -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Conradi Sonata
Ed Martin has learned quite a bit about the multiple Conradis- and has recorded them as well. Perhaps he will weigh in here on this, unless it was already dealt with and may be in the archives. Dan I didn't know Conradi's music so thanks for sharing these beautiful pieces. I'd love to hear that Barto's bootleg! I looked at the New Grove Dictionary of Music and found there are two Conradi. Based on the publication date you give (1724), I guess these works are from Johann Melchior, son of Johann Georg, both Kapellmeisters at Oettingen. Nonetheless, the New Grove doesn't mention any lute works by them... -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary
Monica Hall wrote: I think it depends on the purpose for which players post their videos. Stuart often posts some of the Foscarini pieces I am transcribing and I'm sure he wont mind my saying that they are not polished professional performances. Often they are done in a hurry as well. But I find them enormously helpful - because I can hear someone else playing them and think about ways of improving them. I am pleased that he thinks they are worth exploring. Well I'm glad you find them helpful and I'm happy floundering around in strange territory. But in this sort of case is it best to make an mp3 and just send it to you personally? The same is true of the things on my web site - people's comments and queries are invaluable. Of course we should avoid saying really tactless things (and perhaps I am sometimes guilty of this). But I think we should be free to express an opinion. At least as far as this list is concerned we are surely all friends. Monica - Original Message - From: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: Sauvage Valéry sauvag...@orange.fr Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, January 11, 2010 10:42 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary Sauvage Valéry wrote: So I'm not sure Youtube is the place for constructive commentary, but more for sharing music we love I've put up some youtube videos. Is it folly, vanity, lack of self-awareness? Sometimes it's like a goal to aim for - to choose a piece, practice it, video it, and upload it as a sort of resolution... and then move on! Sometimes the little video I have uploaded has been an example of something. Like Valéry, I know (or think I know) much of what is wrong with my playing. And - like most players of musical instruments, ever - I'm not a professional, just an amateur trying to play as well as I can. And so I know nothing of, nor have any skills at all in the presentation and stagecraft of music - of communicating to an audience. But youtube doesn't have an audience in that sense - just people dipping in and out watching perhaps just a few seconds and then clicking away. And a video of a farting cat on a unicycle will always get the big hits anyway. But I do agree with David that people constructive criticism could make me, and others play better (and perhaps Valéry too?) - and see things in the music and interpret some things better and offer technical solutions etc etc (probably quite a lot of etcs). After a very long time I've been looking at some English lute music and the ornaments and it would be really interesting to get comments from people who are steeped in all that. I'm not a fan of ning (Cuthbert is now friends with Melanie etc) but I could see the use of something like a ning site dedicated only to constructive criticism of performances lute/allied plucked intruments - where you have to sign up to comment and preferably you sign up on the understanding that you submit something. And each person would indicate: beginner, amateur, professional in their performances and in their comments. Better still would be link from here to somewhere dedicated to constructive criticism if that is what you actually wanted. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.432 / Virus Database: 270.14.133/2612 - Release Date: 01/10/10 19:35:00
[LUTE] Re: Conradi Sonata
There are more Conradi recordings: Neue Lautenstuecke Lutenist: Rainer Waldeck ww.earlymusic.com The Baroque Lute Sony CB621 Lutenist: Eugen Dombois Regards Albert TREE EDITION - Music for the Lute - Albert Reyerman Finkenberg 89 23558 Luebeck Germany web:[1]www.Tree-Edition.com mailto: [2]albertreyer...@kabelmail.de phone: ++49(0)451- 899 78 48 - Werden Sie Mitglied bei der Deutschen Lautengesellschaft. Join The German Lute Society [3]www.lautengesellschaft.de - Daniel Winheld schrieb: Ed Martin has learned quite a bit about the multiple Conradis- and has recorded them as well. Perhaps he will weigh in here on this, unless it was already dealt with and may be in the archives. Dan I didn't know Conradi's music so thanks for sharing these beautiful pieces. I'd love to hear that Barto's bootleg! I looked at the New Grove Dictionary of Music and found there are two Conradi. Based on the publication date you give (1724), I guess these works are from Johann Melchior, son of Johann Georg, both Kapellmeisters at Oettingen. Nonetheless, the New Grove doesn't mention any lute works by them... -- References 1. http://www.Tree-Edition.com/ 2. mailto:albertreyer...@kabelmail.de 3. http://www.lautengesellschaft.de/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Conradi Sonata
And of course the fine rendition by the late Michael Schaffer of the A major suite on his recording of French Baroque Lute Suites, which was available on CD, don't think it's still in print, but used copies may be available. Definitely a must have. Dan -- Rachel Winheld 820 Colusa Avenue Berkeley, CA 94707 rwinh...@comcast.net Tel 510.526.0242 Cell 510.915.4276 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary
Of course, Bernd, what else did you imagine ? Jean-Marie ;-) = == En réponse au message du 11-01-2010, 17:42:17 == Thank you ever so much, Franz ! We, lefties, had to wait all these years But how do you do it? Do you also rewrite the tablatures so that they run from right to left? I always watch your youtube clips in a little mirror because otherwise it would confuse me.. Best wishes B N ¶è®ß¶¬+-±ç¥Ëbú+«b¢vÛiÿü0ÁË j»f¢ëayÛ¿Á·?ë^iÙ¢ø§uìa¶i
[LUTE] Reasons to tube videos
Hi lute gang, to me the reasons to publish more or less unpolished lute performances in the Net have been very, very varying! [The following history and the links to the pieces can be seen in http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/wikla/mus/own/videos.html] In the beginning, April 2008, I just found some old (analogy tape) videos, a way to make them digital, and publish them; some stuff from years 1992 to 2000. Did not think much, what I am doing. Then I found out I can use my digital pocket camera to make videos, too. And the first take happened to be a proof to RT that I am not anti-Ukranian, I recorded some folk music arr's by him. :-) It worked. I became eager to make my own arrangements: Tarantellas, song intabulations, Biber's Passagalia, Christmas carols, etc. And to show that those are playable, I also made tube versions to show, where to begin, and play it better. Then I started working with theorbo/chitarrone solos after years of continuo playing. Especially interesting was to be the French stuff, and especially especially Lully arrengements made in Lully's time. I put the tabs and also many of the original models by Lully to the Net. This was open propaganda for Lully's music. Then - after years of neglecting I found the transitional tunings. Great stuff it was! But it also transferred me quickly to the d-minor tuning - as it did also the 17th century lutenists! ;-) And there also was one very critical comment, very well formulated, by a certain 62Konrad, which made me want to find a better recording machine - better soundwise. So during last month I've been testing nearly everything - and still put it in the Net... Of course each of us, who write or send music to the net, know that the stuff will be there for ever. And a certain Narcissos factor cannot be denied... ;-) And of that: my today's piece is Les Tricotins - Gavotte, a medley of two versions of the same(?) piece: Les Tricotins (ms. Milleran, f.29v), and Gavotte (ms. Kalmar 21068, f.2r): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edVzZmX4BzI All the best, ;-)) Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Reasons to tube videos
Thank you for that fine playing of an engaging piece, Arto. You wrote: Of course each of us, who write or send music to the net, know that the stuff will be there forever Is this necessarily so? A delete option does appear, and I would hope that we are able to delete early postings of a piece to be replaced with later postings of that piece as we (I) progress on our instrument - a possible and acceptable procedure? Ned -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: three more Lute Lessons
On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 2:45 PM, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: able to see close up exactly what the right and left hands are doing. Make that left and right ... ;-) maybe the next time you have a spare weekend you could do one or two baroque guitar pieces. I'm sure there are better b-guitar players out there. On renaissance lute I feel confident I can show 'how it's done', for what that is worth, obviously, whereas on b-guitar I can just show how I happen to do it. Anyway, here are two where I do play baroque guitar: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FH1rEJKJB8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xJN9-8RIiw But this might not be what you were looking for ... David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: b-lute debut
On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 4:02 PM, Markus Lutz mar...@gmlutz.de wrote: The source for the pieces, you uploaded, is PRAHA, Státní archív (CZ-Pa) Ms. RPI 504, cf. http://mss.slweiss.de/index.php?id=2type=msms=CZ-PaRPI504lang=eng thank you, Markus. I'll check and correct! David - played not from the facsimile, obviously -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary
I suppose that if the recording is out there those who view it have a right to critique it. However; I think this should be shaded by whether or not the critic has had the guts to do the same and if they did would they feel the same way. To those of you who do put out performances on YouTube please don't stop, and to those of you who find it necessary to make negative and scathing reviews, while not putting their own work on YouTube there is an old saying: Put up or shut up. - Original Message - From: Sauvage Valéry sauvag...@orange.fr To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2010 9:47 PM Subject: [LUTE] constructive critical commentary About constructive critical commentary, as a multi Youtube recording luteninst, I know very well what's wrong in my videos, I'm working very hard to try do do better, and of course I accept criticism but very often I know the could be better points before being told by someone, and what I would need in fact is a (or many...) good master class(es) with some of the lute gods as Paul, Bob, Ron or Nigel (sorry I miss some other names but... List is long) So I don't wait any technical comment, but I'm always glad to answer to kind words people would spend time to write, even if it is not useful for my lute technic... And I'm afraid critical commentary sometimes posted are often not constructive, but acerb (then I'm sorry but I remove them at once ! Lol) So I'm not sure Youtube is the place for constructive commentary, but more for sharing music we love without pretention (I hope for my sake) I just got today a beautiful theorbo made by Didier Jarny, a small instrument for solo music (70cm/120cm) so now working on some Kapsberger's Canarios, and it is great fun ! V. -Message d'origine- De : lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] De la part de nedma...@aol.com Envoyé : dimanche 10 janvier 2010 22:55 À : franz.mechs...@northumbria.ac.uk; edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp; kidneykut...@gmail.com; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Objet : [LUTE] Re: Conradi Sonata To repeat my comments to the group (since I replied privately inadvertently), I thought the music quite lovely, and very nicely played. Franz's point concerning the absence of constructive critical commentary may be pertinent. Since I'm working on Renaissance lute only, and am not familiar with Baroque lute literature or technique, I'll leave it to other Baroque players to consider Franz's point. Ned -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4759 (20100110) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4762 (20100111) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
[LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary
I appreciate it when people point out mistakes, but it has to be handled well. For example, there are some videos where people are playing something twice as fast or twice as slow, double or half timing. Now it is obvious in this case that the player is not aware of it, and one *might* send a personal email alerting someone, or then again, not! If I had a glaring error I would probably take the video down and be grateful, or in some cases if it is just a wrong note I would leave it up and say, hey, I played a wrong note. On the other hand, most professional recordings of Dowland's Lachrimae and Johnson's Almaine have a mistake in the second bar--parallel fifths--and there really is no point in commenting or correcting this even in an email, although could post for example a corrected edition or start a discussion topic on the issue--without mentioning any names. No one is aware of all they mistakes they might make, at least as far as I can tell. For some younger or preprofessional players I occasionally consider mentioning some things that might prevent employment, but I have to say the reception for such information, however well--intentioned, is invariably tundra-esque. When I was starting out, I definitely appreciated people mentioning things like that, but I was trying to make a living and that puts you in a different frame of mind. The point is, there is first of all a privacy issue and second of all a colleague issue. When in doubt, say nothing at all. d At 01:31 AM 1/11/2010, you wrote: There seem to be several subject headers around dealing with what this, I'll stick to this one. I've had my fair share of lessons and I teach. Lessons or commentary from fellow students at a conservatory are not for people with a fragile ego, but all comments are fair. People know what they talk about, can clearly hear and see what's wrong with your playing and will say so. And it's good they do, for that's the only way to become better. The point is the comments are fair and made by people with knowledge. Not everybody posting comments on YouTube is fair or knows what he/she is writing about. Or, if I play a concert, people come to me and say they liked. it. Of course I'm flattered, but what did they like? Probably something completely different from what I tried to put into the music. That's no problem, but the same is true with criticism: what it is they didn't like, is not always a valid point for me. I might lose some of my audience, but I cannot please everybody. It is important to know who is saying something, to be able to judge it well. I had a little girl of six in my audience last Wednesday who thought it was utterly boring what I was doing, but her sister of eight just loved it. Not because of the music, but because I am her guitar teacher, I waved to her during the concert and was playing _such_ a funny guitar! She had a great time despite the boring music. Now for us commenting on each other's YouTube videos. Valery made the point he knows what's there to improve in his playing and he doesn't need to be reminded (sorry if I oversimplify his statement or have it wrong. It is a point I want to make that actually does not need Valery's playing, it is not about his playing at all, but the example was conveniently at hand). Sorry, Valery, perhaps you don't, because I think if you really did know what is there to improve and how to improve it, you'd change it within weeks or months. One of my first videos had too many funny faces, grimaces. I withdrew it. My debut Baroque lute videos of last weekend received kind comments, I thank you all, but I know my tone has to improve, not all is quite steady and some ornaments were downright sloppy. Many of the lute players on YouTube play not legato enough. Or should we blame their microphones? Many don't hold notes to give them their 'proper' length, or is that debatable? Anyway, do I tell them directly? No, because I don't know them. I teach real people. People facing me, personalities I know. I know their ambitions and their sensitivities. Both are needed to find the right touch in making comments on their playing. What use is there if someone hears from me his playing is not legato enough and he should hold the bass, when all he wants is a pat on the back and praise for his brave efforts? Sorry, got carried away. Real theorbo pupil coming in half an hour. David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary
I think one could offer constructive commentary that is a bit more pointed that was of a statistical nature that might be helpful. For example, one can say that out of say 500 videos 50 percent of the lutes do not have the string spacing optimized for tone and playability But even this is sort of bordering on direct criticsim. dt At 04:08 PM 1/11/2010, you wrote: I appreciate it when people point out mistakes, but it has to be handled well. For example, there are some videos where people are playing something twice as fast or twice as slow, double or half timing. Now it is obvious in this case that the player is not aware of it, and one *might* send a personal email alerting someone, or then again, not! If I had a glaring error I would probably take the video down and be grateful, or in some cases if it is just a wrong note I would leave it up and say, hey, I played a wrong note. On the other hand, most professional recordings of Dowland's Lachrimae and Johnson's Almaine have a mistake in the second bar--parallel fifths--and there really is no point in commenting or correcting this even in an email, although could post for example a corrected edition or start a discussion topic on the issue--without mentioning any names. No one is aware of all they mistakes they might make, at least as far as I can tell. For some younger or preprofessional players I occasionally consider mentioning some things that might prevent employment, but I have to say the reception for such information, however well--intentioned, is invariably tundra-esque. When I was starting out, I definitely appreciated people mentioning things like that, but I was trying to make a living and that puts you in a different frame of mind. The point is, there is first of all a privacy issue and second of all a colleague issue. When in doubt, say nothing at all. d At 01:31 AM 1/11/2010, you wrote: There seem to be several subject headers around dealing with what this, I'll stick to this one. I've had my fair share of lessons and I teach. Lessons or commentary from fellow students at a conservatory are not for people with a fragile ego, but all comments are fair. People know what they talk about, can clearly hear and see what's wrong with your playing and will say so. And it's good they do, for that's the only way to become better. The point is the comments are fair and made by people with knowledge. Not everybody posting comments on YouTube is fair or knows what he/she is writing about. Or, if I play a concert, people come to me and say they liked. it. Of course I'm flattered, but what did they like? Probably something completely different from what I tried to put into the music. That's no problem, but the same is true with criticism: what it is they didn't like, is not always a valid point for me. I might lose some of my audience, but I cannot please everybody. It is important to know who is saying something, to be able to judge it well. I had a little girl of six in my audience last Wednesday who thought it was utterly boring what I was doing, but her sister of eight just loved it. Not because of the music, but because I am her guitar teacher, I waved to her during the concert and was playing _such_ a funny guitar! She had a great time despite the boring music. Now for us commenting on each other's YouTube videos. Valery made the point he knows what's there to improve in his playing and he doesn't need to be reminded (sorry if I oversimplify his statement or have it wrong. It is a point I want to make that actually does not need Valery's playing, it is not about his playing at all, but the example was conveniently at hand). Sorry, Valery, perhaps you don't, because I think if you really did know what is there to improve and how to improve it, you'd change it within weeks or months. One of my first videos had too many funny faces, grimaces. I withdrew it. My debut Baroque lute videos of last weekend received kind comments, I thank you all, but I know my tone has to improve, not all is quite steady and some ornaments were downright sloppy. Many of the lute players on YouTube play not legato enough. Or should we blame their microphones? Many don't hold notes to give them their 'proper' length, or is that debatable? Anyway, do I tell them directly? No, because I don't know them. I teach real people. People facing me, personalities I know. I know their ambitions and their sensitivities. Both are needed to find the right touch in making comments on their playing. What use is there if someone hears from me his playing is not legato enough and he should hold the bass, when all he wants is a pat on the back and praise for his brave efforts? Sorry, got carried away. Real theorbo pupil coming in half an hour. David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see
[LUTE] string spacing
Hi David, As I got some money I am considering ordering a better Renaissance lute and a vihuela (not clear which kind, as I have rarely an opportunity to try vihuelas, and audio files, CDs etc. are not always so telling as needed for narrowing down one's options... but I think this is not the forum to discuss this). Your remark on string spacing reinforces my concerns I might not get the appropriate spacing (the issue is discussed, for instance, on the website of a vihuela maker, but I didn't get a clear impression what would be the consequence for me). Is there an ideal in your opinion, and how do you find out for yourself apart from the obvious, i.e., that it feels good with your hand(s). Thanks and best Franz Dr. Franz Mechsner Hanse Institute for Advanced Study Lehmkuhlenbusch 4 D-27753 Delmenhorst/Bremen GERMANY E-mail: [1]franz.mechs...@unn.ac.uk Phone: +49 (0)4221 9160-215 Fax: +49 (0)4221 9160-179 __ Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu im Auftrag von David Tayler Gesendet: Di 12.01.2010 01:19 An: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu Betreff: [LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary I think one could offer constructive commentary that is a bit more pointed that was of a statistical nature that might be helpful. For example, one can say that out of say 500 videos 50 percent of the lutes do not have the string spacing optimized for tone and playability But even this is sort of bordering on direct criticsim. dt At 04:08 PM 1/11/2010, you wrote: I appreciate it when people point out mistakes, but it has to be handled well. For example, there are some videos where people are playing something twice as fast or twice as slow, double or half timing. Now it is obvious in this case that the player is not aware of it, and one *might* send a personal email alerting someone, or then again, not! If I had a glaring error I would probably take the video down and be grateful, or in some cases if it is just a wrong note I would leave it up and say, hey, I played a wrong note. On the other hand, most professional recordings of Dowland's Lachrimae and Johnson's Almaine have a mistake in the second bar--parallel fifths--and there really is no point in commenting or correcting this even in an email, although could post for example a corrected edition or start a discussion topic on the issue--without mentioning any names. No one is aware of all they mistakes they might make, at least as far as I can tell. For some younger or preprofessional players I occasionally consider mentioning some things that might prevent employment, but I have to say the reception for such information, however well--intentioned, is invariably tundra-esque. When I was starting out, I definitely appreciated people mentioning things like that, but I was trying to make a living and that puts you in a different frame of mind. The point is, there is first of all a privacy issue and second of all a colleague issue. When in doubt, say nothing at all. d At 01:31 AM 1/11/2010, you wrote: There seem to be several subject headers around dealing with what this, I'll stick to this one. I've had my fair share of lessons and I teach. Lessons or commentary from fellow students at a conservatory are not for people with a fragile ego, but all comments are fair. People know what they talk about, can clearly hear and see what's wrong with your playing and will say so. And it's good they do, for that's the only way to become better. The point is the comments are fair and made by people with knowledge. Not everybody posting comments on YouTube is fair or knows what he/she is writing about. Or, if I play a concert, people come to me and say they liked. it. Of course I'm flattered, but what did they like? Probably something completely different from what I tried to put into the music. That's no problem, but the same is true with criticism: what it is they didn't like, is not always a valid point for me. I might lose some of my audience, but I cannot please everybody. It is important to know who is saying something, to be able to judge it well. I had a little girl of six in my audience last Wednesday who thought it was utterly boring what I was doing, but her sister of eight just loved it. Not because of the music, but because I am her guitar teacher, I waved to her during the concert and was playing _such_ a funny guitar! She had a great time despite the boring music. Now for us commenting on each other's YouTube videos. Valery made the point he knows what's there to improve in his playing and he doesn't need to be
[LUTE] Re: Reasons to tube videos
Haïku for Arto ;-) Narcissus, What a lovely flower, Waiting for it to retrun when the snow will be gone ! Valéry - Original Message - From: wikla And a certain Narcissos factor cannot be denied... ;-) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary
I think, most of the remarks here are very tasteful, but I am not hundred percent happy how strongly they defend the usual not-saying-anything. Why not expend the borders, getting a little used to a more honest exchange? After all, silence means that nothing is said... Recently, somebody said angrily to me in a discussion, my style of speaking was self-righteous. My immediate reaction was actually and of course tundra-esk, in particular my inside reaction, mainly occupied with some problems that guy might have with understanding my (of course always benevolent) intention, and, given there was something right in his remark, how harshly he expressed his impression about me and what this tells about him and I would surely not connect again to him... But honestly, his remark worked inside me for ome days (and probably dreams), and now I have learned something important, happy that he simply expressed his anger about my style. I have to be thankful and I am - and we connected well again, in a good and open spirit. I think the problem with saying not so agreable things is a problem of discussion culture, we are not used to it and so it appears over-dimensional and really puts us off. But so what? Is that so terrible? For my part, I much appreciate that being polite and sensitive is important, but I do not want work through a list of conditions and constraints before I am open and honest... and should certainly not expect that from others. I think if you do you almost never will speak out and almost never would accept anything from others... I think one should take some risk regarding speaking, and take into serious consideration what others say - let it work, it will only improve your mind in the end, independent of the degree you accept it in the end, independent of how politely the person uttered the stuff, independent of if the person is able to do better etc. etc. Of course, being silent spares you a lot of trouble... I have a sensitive but nice colleague who has (IMHO) a ridiculously boasting website... I never told him so far, but work on how to do one day, because I do not wish him to be exposed in this way... Cheers and thanks Franz Dr. Franz Mechsner Hanse Institute for Advanced Study Lehmkuhlenbusch 4 D-27753 Delmenhorst/Bremen GERMANY E-mail: [1]franz.mechs...@unn.ac.uk Phone: +49 (0)4221 9160-215 Fax: +49 (0)4221 9160-179 __ Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu im Auftrag von David Tayler Gesendet: Di 12.01.2010 01:08 An: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu Betreff: [LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary I appreciate it when people point out mistakes, but it has to be handled well. For example, there are some videos where people are playing something twice as fast or twice as slow, double or half timing. Now it is obvious in this case that the player is not aware of it, and one *might* send a personal email alerting someone, or then again, not! If I had a glaring error I would probably take the video down and be grateful, or in some cases if it is just a wrong note I would leave it up and say, hey, I played a wrong note. On the other hand, most professional recordings of Dowland's Lachrimae and Johnson's Almaine have a mistake in the second bar--parallel fifths--and there really is no point in commenting or correcting this even in an email, although could post for example a corrected edition or start a discussion topic on the issue--without mentioning any names. No one is aware of all they mistakes they might make, at least as far as I can tell. For some younger or preprofessional players I occasionally consider mentioning some things that might prevent employment, but I have to say the reception for such information, however well--intentioned, is invariably tundra-esque. When I was starting out, I definitely appreciated people mentioning things like that, but I was trying to make a living and that puts you in a different frame of mind. The point is, there is first of all a privacy issue and second of all a colleague issue. When in doubt, say nothing at all. d At 01:31 AM 1/11/2010, you wrote: There seem to be several subject headers around dealing with what this, I'll stick to this one. I've had my fair share of lessons and I teach. Lessons or commentary from fellow students at a conservatory are not for people with a fragile ego, but all comments are fair. People know what they talk about, can clearly hear and see what's wrong with your playing and will say so. And it's good they do, for that's the only way to become better. The point is the comments are fair and made by people with knowledge. Not everybody posting comments on YouTube is fair or
[LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary
I think, most of the remarks here are very tasteful, but I am not hundred percent happy how strongly they defend the usual not-saying-anything. Why not extend the borders, getting a little used to a more honest exchange? After all, silence means that nothing is said... Recently, somebody said angrily to me in a discussion, my style of speaking was self-righteous. My immediate reaction was actually and of course tundra-esk, in particular my inside reaction, mainly occupied with some problems that guy might have with understanding my (of course always benevolent) intention, and, given there was something right in his remark, how harshly he expressed his impression about me and what this tells about him and I would surely not connect again to him... But honestly, his remark worked inside me for ome days (and probably dreams), and now I have learned something important, happy that he simply expressed his anger about my style. I have to be thankful and I am - and we connected well again, in a good and open spirit. I think the problem with saying not so agreable things is a problem of discussion culture, we are not used to it and so it appears over-dimensional and really puts us off. But so what? Is that so terrible? For my part, I much appreciate that being polite and sensitive is important, but I do not want work through a list of conditions and constraints before I am open and honest... and should certainly not expect that from others. I think if you do you almost never will speak out and almost never would accept anything from others... I think one should take some risk regarding speaking, and take into serious consideration what others say - let it work, it will only improve your mind in the end, independent of the degree you accept it in the end, independent of how politely the person uttered the stuff, independent of if the person is able to do better etc. etc. Of course, being silent spares you a lot of trouble... I have a sensitive but nice colleague who has (IMHO) a ridiculously boasting website... I never told him so far, but work on how to do one day, because I do not wish him to be exposed in this way... Cheers and thanks Franz Dr. Franz Mechsner Hanse Institute for Advanced Study Lehmkuhlenbusch 4 D-27753 Delmenhorst/Bremen GERMANY E-mail: [1]franz.mechs...@unn.ac.uk Phone: +49 (0)4221 9160-215 Fax: +49 (0)4221 9160-179 __ Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu im Auftrag von David Tayler Gesendet: Di 12.01.2010 01:08 An: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu Betreff: [LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary I appreciate it when people point out mistakes, but it has to be handled well. For example, there are some videos where people are playing something twice as fast or twice as slow, double or half timing. Now it is obvious in this case that the player is not aware of it, and one *might* send a personal email alerting someone, or then again, not! If I had a glaring error I would probably take the video down and be grateful, or in some cases if it is just a wrong note I would leave it up and say, hey, I played a wrong note. On the other hand, most professional recordings of Dowland's Lachrimae and Johnson's Almaine have a mistake in the second bar--parallel fifths--and there really is no point in commenting or correcting this even in an email, although could post for example a corrected edition or start a discussion topic on the issue--without mentioning any names. No one is aware of all they mistakes they might make, at least as far as I can tell. For some younger or preprofessional players I occasionally consider mentioning some things that might prevent employment, but I have to say the reception for such information, however well--intentioned, is invariably tundra-esque. When I was starting out, I definitely appreciated people mentioning things like that, but I was trying to make a living and that puts you in a different frame of mind. The point is, there is first of all a privacy issue and second of all a colleague issue. When in doubt, say nothing at all. d At 01:31 AM 1/11/2010, you wrote: There seem to be several subject headers around dealing with what this, I'll stick to this one. I've had my fair share of lessons and I teach. Lessons or commentary from fellow students at a conservatory are not for people with a fragile ego, but all comments are fair. People know what they talk about, can clearly hear and see what's wrong with your playing and will say so. And it's good they do, for that's the only way to become better. The point is the comments are fair and made by people with knowledge. Not everybody posting comments on YouTube is fair or
[LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary
What exactly do you mean by optimized for tone and playability? Mark -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von David Tayler Gesendet: Dienstag, 12. Januar 2010 01:20 An: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu Betreff: [LUTE] Re: constructive critical commentary I think one could offer constructive commentary that is a bit more pointed that was of a statistical nature that might be helpful. For example, one can say that out of say 500 videos 50 percent of the lutes do not have the string spacing optimized for tone and playability But even this is sort of bordering on direct criticsim. dt At 04:08 PM 1/11/2010, you wrote: I appreciate it when people point out mistakes, but it has to be handled well. For example, there are some videos where people are playing something twice as fast or twice as slow, double or half timing. Now it is obvious in this case that the player is not aware of it, and one *might* send a personal email alerting someone, or then again, not! If I had a glaring error I would probably take the video down and be grateful, or in some cases if it is just a wrong note I would leave it up and say, hey, I played a wrong note. On the other hand, most professional recordings of Dowland's Lachrimae and Johnson's Almaine have a mistake in the second bar--parallel fifths--and there really is no point in commenting or correcting this even in an email, although could post for example a corrected edition or start a discussion topic on the issue--without mentioning any names. No one is aware of all they mistakes they might make, at least as far as I can tell. For some younger or preprofessional players I occasionally consider mentioning some things that might prevent employment, but I have to say the reception for such information, however well--intentioned, is invariably tundra-esque. When I was starting out, I definitely appreciated people mentioning things like that, but I was trying to make a living and that puts you in a different frame of mind. The point is, there is first of all a privacy issue and second of all a colleague issue. When in doubt, say nothing at all. d At 01:31 AM 1/11/2010, you wrote: There seem to be several subject headers around dealing with what this, I'll stick to this one. I've had my fair share of lessons and I teach. Lessons or commentary from fellow students at a conservatory are not for people with a fragile ego, but all comments are fair. People know what they talk about, can clearly hear and see what's wrong with your playing and will say so. And it's good they do, for that's the only way to become better. The point is the comments are fair and made by people with knowledge. Not everybody posting comments on YouTube is fair or knows what he/she is writing about. Or, if I play a concert, people come to me and say they liked. it. Of course I'm flattered, but what did they like? Probably something completely different from what I tried to put into the music. That's no problem, but the same is true with criticism: what it is they didn't like, is not always a valid point for me. I might lose some of my audience, but I cannot please everybody. It is important to know who is saying something, to be able to judge it well. I had a little girl of six in my audience last Wednesday who thought it was utterly boring what I was doing, but her sister of eight just loved it. Not because of the music, but because I am her guitar teacher, I waved to her during the concert and was playing _such_ a funny guitar! She had a great time despite the boring music. Now for us commenting on each other's YouTube videos. Valery made the point he knows what's there to improve in his playing and he doesn't need to be reminded (sorry if I oversimplify his statement or have it wrong. It is a point I want to make that actually does not need Valery's playing, it is not about his playing at all, but the example was conveniently at hand). Sorry, Valery, perhaps you don't, because I think if you really did know what is there to improve and how to improve it, you'd change it within weeks or months. One of my first videos had too many funny faces, grimaces. I withdrew it. My debut Baroque lute videos of last weekend received kind comments, I thank you all, but I know my tone has to improve, not all is quite steady and some ornaments were downright sloppy. Many of the lute players on YouTube play not legato enough. Or should we blame their microphones? Many don't hold notes to give them their 'proper' length, or is that debatable? Anyway, do I tell them directly? No, because I don't know them. I teach real people. People facing me, personalities I know. I know their ambitions and their sensitivities. Both are needed to find the right touch in making comments on their playing. What use is there if someone hears from me his playing is not legato enough and he should hold the bass, when all he
