[LUTE] Re: new piece of the month

[Nancy Carlin]

   I liked your description of Matthew Holmes' use of the sharp sign.
   I have spent some time lately with Dd.9.33 and Holmes has written a lot
   of notes on lines instead of between the lines. In almost all of the
   places the note is on the line below the space it belongs in, so
   perhaps there are places in the this piece  where questionable notes
   might belong a course up.
   I will take a look those the places you have marked.  The one "mistake"
   that I always correct when I play the piece is in measure 24. The 4th
   note (d) seems to me better as a (c) so that it matches the figures of
   similar 3 notes groups in that area.
   Nancy

 Thanks, Nancy.  I've looked again at my copy of the MS and mostly
 it's pretty clear, but damp damage at the tops of pages has obscured
 a few things:
 bar 1, events 2-4: top part
 bar 56: middle of bar, but the logic is clear here
 bar 59: most of bar, but the rhythm signs are all just about
 legible, also events 1-3, 7-9 and 10-12
 The other thing I noticed is that the # sign occurs three times,
 each time written in the middle of the stave (not next to a note):
 bar 1 (before first chord)
 bar 23, event 7
 bar 38, event 1
 I doubt that these are intended as signs for graces. Holmes seems to
 have used the # to cross out a copying mistake or indicate the
 location of such a mistake, to indicate a grace, or for no
 discernable reason at all!  Looking through Dd.2.11 and Dd.5.78, it
 is quite rare, and quite often occurs just two or three times in the
 course of a piece, and then at places where a grace is impossible or
 seems unlikely.  But just occasionally, it occurs about 20 times on
 one page (see the first page of Lachrimae in Dd.5.78) and in
 sensible places - then it seems it is being used to indicate
 graces.  So I think we have to be very circumspect in interpreting
 this sign.
 Best wishes,
 Martin
 On 16/10/2010 19:05, Nancy Carlin wrote:

 Thank you, thank you for this piece. I have been fascinated with
 it for
 quite a while and about a year ago asked the list if anyone knew
 where
 to find it. Ron Andrico got back to me with a link to the music,
 which
 he has on his web site. So now what is really interesting is the
 differences that Ron and Martin have in their versions of the
 piece. I
 am eagerly waiting for Dd.2.11 to be available so I can get a
 real copy
 of it to replace the fuzzy old microfilm I have, but assume at
 least
 some of the different notes come from guessing what is written
 at the
 top of the pages where it looks like there is mildew damage.
 The
 biggest difference between the 2 versions is measure 31, which
 was
 probably unreadable. The other differences are mostly from
 places where
 Holmes wrote notes on the lines instead of in the spaces and Ron
 and
 Martin chose a line above or below each other.
 About those ornaments - Martin wrote THE article on ornament in
 the
 1996 The Lute "The Interpretation of Sings for Graces in English
 Lute
 Music," pp37-84. You can easily buy a copy of it from the Lute
 Society
 (UK)'s web site.
 It's also interesting that Martin has named it "Dump" rather
 than
 "Ground."  It looks like it's loosely built on a 6 measure chord
 progression to me, and some of the Dumps have shorter, sometimes
 only 2
 chord grounds.If you want to look at other lute grounds
 there is
 one on with web site
 [1][1] www.groundsanddivisions.info
 from the Euing manuscript, and there is one very strange one for
 bandora that I transcribed for lute in my article on bandora
 music.
 That one is 2 variations on 2 different chord progressions stuck
 together and I am beginning to think it might be a bass part
 from an
 ensemble piece.
 Nancy
 At 08:34 AM 10/16/2010, Martin Shepherd wrote:
With apologies for the long gap in this series, a new piece
 of the
   month has finally escaped from my music room, played on a new
 lute
   after Maler (67cm) strung entirely in gut.
   [2]http://www.luteshop.co.uk/month/pieceofthemonth.htm
   You'll want to play this piece (you'll probably also want to
 play
   the lute, but sorry it belongs to somebody else!).
   Best wishes,
   Martin
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 Nancy Carlin Associates
 P.O. Box 6499
 Concord, CA 94524  USA
 phone 925/686-5800 fax 925/680-2582
 web sites - [4]www.nancycarlinassociates.com
 [5]www.groundsanddivisions.

[LUTE] Re: 42 Hennen Dantz

[David van Ooijen]

On 17 October 2010 21:04, Peter Nightingale  wrote:

> I liked it that way too, but there is always the tension between HIP and
> the taste of some HUP (hysterically uniformed physicist).

In The Hague Royal Conservatory Early Music department we had a class
called hysterical documentation, or so I always thought ... ;-)

David

***
David van Ooijen
davidvanooi...@gmail.com
www.davidvanooijen.nl
***



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[LUTE] Re: 42 Hennen Dantz

[Peter Nightingale]

On Sun, 17 Oct 2010, David van Ooijen wrote:

> On 17 October 2010 17:31, Peter Nightingale  wrote:
>
>> I was listening to "42. Hennen Dantz"
>> (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRW2GvbQhhg)
>>  and was wondering how you
>> decided to deal with the "3" in measure 17 as you do, i.e., if you count
>> the first 16 bars in four beats, you keep three of the same from bar 17
>> onward.  Am I off the charts wrong to think that you you could have
>> counted the first 16 bars in two beats each and then used one of those
>> beats for each bar starting at the 3 in measure 17?
>
> Yes! I could have done that, and it would have been a lot better! I
> think you are right, it would have made a more exiting relationship
> from 2 to 3.

I liked it that way too, but there is always the tension between HIP and 
the taste of some HUP (hysterically uniformed physicist).

> I might record it again. ;-)
>
> thanks
>
> David
Thank YOU for putting all those annotated pieces out there,
Peter.

PS For Mac folks: Safari running on Snow TIger suppresses the text in the
David's speech bubbles; Firefox displays them just fine.  As an unrelated
but wonderful bonus, Firefox's add-on Addblock Plus zaps most of those
awfull Google adds that pop up left and right on web pages.


the next auto-quote is:
I would rather be the offspring of two apes
than be a man and afraid to face the truth.
(Thomas Huxley)
/\/\
Peter Nightingale  Telephone (401) 874-5882
Department of Physics, East Hall   Fax (401) 874-2380
University of Rhode Island Kingston, RI 02881



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[LUTE] Re: Lute volume

[Mathias Rösel]

Yes, I'm sorry. Here's another link that will hopefully work better:
http://www.esnips.com/doc/2e16bada-e956-4cc0-9f12-f891df8545bc/Bouvier_Reichard_Gehema


Mathias  

"Ed Durbrow"  schrieb: 
I get:


Diese Session ist nicht mehr gültig (Timeout). Bitte schließen Sie
dieses Fenster und melden Sie sich neu mit Ihrem GMX Account an.












On Oct 17, 2010, at 8:51 PM, Mathias Rösel wrote:


Judge for yourself:
http://service.gmx.net/de/cgi/derefer?TYPE=2&DEST=http%3A%2F%2Fservice%2Egmx%2Enet%2Fde%2Fcgi%2Fdfstools%3Fopenid%3D30949%2E1287316081%26o%3D959384029%2E1287316082%26cmd%3Dopen%26file%3D04%2BGigue%2BWach%2Bauf%2BMs1645%255FMatthias%2BRebecca%2B%2B%252Emp3%26folder%3D%252F
(last Sunday, Cottbus). In the beginning, or so I was later told, a
woman said, now a mike is needed, but after a short while she could
dela
with it. As a matter of fact, there was a lot of echo in the huge
cathedral. But focussing does the trick. Or so I was told >8)

Mathias

"Gary Digman"  schrieb:

As a jazz musician, I play a lot of corporate events and parties. For
years 

I thought the crowd would get louder every time we began to play, but
now I 

think the perception that the crowd is getting louder is a result of
focus, 

i.e. when we begin to play we focus on sound, giving the impression that
all 

sounds get louder including the crowd noise.



That being said, I have to admit that I have attended lute concerts
given by 

some of the leading lights of the lute world for audiences numbering in
the 

hundreds where the lute literally could not be heard at all past the
seventh 

or eighth row. Very frustating to pay $35-$80 for a ticket only to find
out 

you will not be able to hear the lute no matter how focused you are. I
think 

if we're going to play for audiences this la rge, some sound
reinforcement 

may become necessary even though it is a compromise. Other instruments
have 

had to deal with this problem. Jazz bassists amplify the double bass,
even 

though the best and purest sound of the double bass is thereby
compromised, 

in order to be heard.



Gary



- Original Message - 

From: "Ron Andrico" 

To: ; 

Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2010 11:29 AM

Subject: [LUTE] Lute volume





 To All:

 We have a new post on our blog that may be of general lute interest,

 concerning volume in performance.

 http://mignarda.wordpress.com/2010/10/16/sound-check-is-it-loud-enough/

 Best wishes,

 Ron & Donna

 www.mignarda.com

 --





To get on or off this list see list information at

http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html















No virus found in this incoming message.

Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

Version: 9.0.862 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3199 - Release Date: 10/15/10


11:34:00









-- 
Viele Grüße

Mathias Rösel

http://mathiasroesel.livejournal.com 
http://www.myspace.com/mathiasroesel 





Ed Durbrow
Saitama, Japan
http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9 688/


 

-- 
Viele Grüße

Mathias Rösel

http://mathiasroesel.livejournal.com 
http://www.myspace.com/mathiasroesel 

[LUTE] Re: 42 Hennen Dantz

[David van Ooijen]

On 17 October 2010 17:31, Peter Nightingale  wrote:

> I was listening to "42. Hennen Dantz"
> (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRW2GvbQhhg)
>  and was wondering how you
> decided to deal with the "3" in measure 17 as you do, i.e., if you count
> the first 16 bars in four beats, you keep three of the same from bar 17
> onward.  Am I off the charts wrong to think that you you could have
> counted the first 16 bars in two beats each and then used one of those
> beats for each bar starting at the 3 in measure 17?

Yes! I could have done that, and it would have been a lot better! I
think you are right, it would have made a more exiting relationship
from 2 to 3.
I might record it again. ;-)

thanks

David



-- 
***
David van Ooijen
davidvanooi...@gmail.com
www.davidvanooijen.nl
***



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[LUTE] Re: Lute volume

[Edward Mast]

Chris,
As far as you've gone, I agree completely.  But going further, expecting a solo 
lute - or guitar - to keep an audience's attention for a full program is 
optimistic.  It doesn't for me, and I love the lute and its literature.  More 
variety is needed.  Lute with singer, or lute with gamba, or at least one other 
instrument works fine. Some solo music and some two (or more) parts.  Ensemble 
playing adds interest to a concert that the solo instrumentalist can't supply.  
The one exception: the piano.  For me it's is the only solo instrument I can 
find totally satisfying for a full (say 1 1/2 hour) program.  
Ned
On Oct 17, 2010, at 10:51 AM, Christopher Wilke wrote:

> Gary,
> 
> --- On Sun, 10/17/10, Gary Digman  wrote:
>> 
>> That being said, I have to admit that I have attended lute
>> concerts given by some of the leading lights of the lute
>> world for audiences numbering in the hundreds where the lute
>> literally could not be heard at all past the seventh or
>> eighth row. Very frustating to pay $35-$80 for a ticket only
>> to find out you will not be able to hear the lute no matter
>> how focused you are. I think if we're going to play for
>> audiences this large, some sound reinforcement may become
>> necessary even though it is a compromise. Other instruments
>> have had to deal with this problem. Jazz bassists amplify
>> the double bass, even though the best and purest sound of
>> the double bass is thereby compromised, in order to be
>> heard.
>> 
> 
> Back when I got my Master's in classical guitar, projection was a major focus 
> of our training.  While the ability to produce a dynamically nuanced 
> performance was assumed and formed a major part of our grades, we were also 
> expected to understand the practicalities of performing in less than ideal 
> circumstances.  We were told repeatedly: get to the hall early; have someone 
> listen to you as you test the dynamic threshold; be prepared to let go of 
> some of the precious dynamic or phrasing ideas you worked out alone in the 
> practice room; you might want to consider moving your right hand position a 
> little closer to the bridge as a general position for this concert; descend 
> to really low volume as a special effect only were dramatically appropriate - 
> maybe once or twice in a program; above all, HAVE REGARD FOR YOUR LISTENERS.
> 
> I've never encountered this in my lute training, where the emphasis has been 
> decidedly on working out even more subtle gradations.  This is all well and 
> good - professionals should have total control over the instrument - but what 
> about the people on the other side of the lute?  There's no reason a lute 
> can't feature in the same size halls as classical guitar.  Although the 
> overall volume is slightly less, it carries far better than the comparatively 
> bass-heavy, mellow modern guitar. 
> 
> The real problem comes down to two culprits: the myth of the lute as 
> "mystical window to another era," and the strong-weak articulation.  I'm 
> prepared dismiss the former, a view which embraces the idea of the lute as 
> some sort of delicate magical device whose spell will be broken if its voice 
> rises above a hush, because this is a fairly tale modernism.  The latter is 
> more difficult.  We all know that good-bad, strong-weak alternation was part 
> of early music.  In practical terms, however, if you're playing in a large 
> hall and no one can hear your weak notes, the audience is literally missing 
> half of what you're playing.  A player might have to settle for strong-less 
> strong or REALLY STRONG-strong or even strong-strong in some cases.  Sorry, 
> you might just have to eschew showing off what an erudite, HIP musician you 
> are in lieu of showing off the music.  
> 
> I once took a large group of my classical guitar students to hear a big name 
> lutenist who was performing in a not-especially-large venue.  My students all 
> said that the concert was boring because the performer only played simple 
> little pieces.  When I actually showed them the sheet music to some of the 
> pieces played, they couldn't believe the degree of musical sophistication 
> involved.  They left with the impression that the lute had some great music 
> written for you, but its really a weak little instrument.  I had to 
> sympathize with their position because I too felt that many of the subtleties 
> of the music never got to the audience due to the incredibly intimate, 
> sensitive touch of the performer.  As a lute fan, I could appreciate the 
> performer's awesome control, but I could not actually experience it.  
> Ultimately, despite great artistry, this person was really a poor ambassador 
> for the instrument.
> 
> Chris
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> Gary
>> 
>> - Original Message - From: "Ron Andrico" 
>> To: ;
>> 
>> Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2010 11:29 AM
>> Subject: [LUTE] Lute volume
>> 
>> 
>>>To All:
>>>We have a new post on our blog that
>> may be of general lute 

[LUTE] Re: dodecaphonic lute/ NeoBaroque and new Dm lute music

[Anthony Hind]

   "Quite so Roman, my struggling to define musical niceties, made my
   geographical classification become somewhat hazy; but I dare say there
   might be other such traditions that I should have mentionned, if I was
   to be exhaustive. So appologies to any one I left out."
   Regards
   AH
 __

   De : Roman Turovsky 
   A : Stuart Walsh ; Anthony Hind
   
   Cc : lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Envoye le : Dim 17 octobre 2010, 17h 34min 47s
   Objet : Re: [LUTE] Re: dodecaphonic lute/ NeoBaroque and new Dm lute
   music
   From: "Anthony Hind" <[1]agno3ph...@yahoo.com>
   >  Perhaps, T. Satoh's works could be classified as Neo-Renaissance or
   >  Baroque; but there seems to have been an unbroken Japanese ancient
   >  music tradition up to the present, from which contemporary Japanese
   >  composers can almost directly borrow, and TS can surely rely on this
   >  continued skill even when borrowing from early forms of Western
   Music,
   >  which might lead to a less artificial modern "transfusion".
   >  [5][2]http://www.channelclassics.com/works-of-toyohoko-satoh-1.html
   >  [6][3]http://www.channelclassics.com/works-of-toyohiko-satoh-2.html
   >  Other relatively unbroken traditions might include Scottish or Irish
   Rob MacKillop has done a few things in the former.
   >  (and perhaps central European RT?) folk-baroque.
   If "RT" was referring to your humble servant -
   The Ukrainian tradition is not quite Central European, but is probably
   the most relatively unbroken of all, as
   well as the most lutenistically relevant. I also have been very lucky
   to be able to actively participate in it and work
   directly with its most authentic carriers.
   RT

   --

References

   1. mailto:agno3ph...@yahoo.com
   2. http://www.channelclassics.com/works-of-toyohoko-satoh-1.html
   3. http://www.channelclassics.com/works-of-toyohiko-satoh-2.html


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[LUTE] Re: Lute volume

[wolfgang wiehe]

Here another example from cottbus to judge. 
Well balanced - i think - between singer and lute. The mic "zoom h2" was
about 5 meters away, this was the first row of our auditorium:
http://www.esnips.com/doc/3c871420-c2d5-4c38-a416-00784a90ba5d/Frottola-
-su-su-leva

And here the same frottola with another "zoom h2" about 15 meters behind
the last row of the auditorium with much more natural reverb:
http://www.esnips.com/doc/ddbd60e1-bfab-48cb-a83e-d2bcc3f51017/16-Titel-
16

The church is from the 15th century and - if i remember right - 70 m
long and 22 m high and wide. See the ground plot:
http://www.st-nikolai-cottbus.de/oberkirche/bilder/denkmal/folie10.html

Greetings
W.



-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im
Auftrag von "Mathias Rösel"
Gesendet: Sonntag, 17. Oktober 2010 13:51
An: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Lute volume


Judge for yourself:
http://service.gmx.net/de/cgi/derefer?TYPE=2&DEST=http%3A%2F%2Fservice%2
Egmx%2Enet%2Fde%2Fcgi%2Fdfstools%3Fopenid%3D30949%2E1287316081%26o%3D959
384029%2E1287316082%26cmd%3Dopen%26file%3D04%2BGigue%2BWach%2Bauf%2BMs16
45%255FMatthias%2BRebecca%2B%2B%252Emp3%26folder%3D%252F
(last Sunday, Cottbus). In the beginning, or so I was later told, a
woman said, now a mike is needed, but after a short while she could dela
with it. As a matter of fact, there was a lot of echo in the huge
cathedral. But focussing does the trick. Or so I was told >8)

Mathias

"Gary Digman"  schrieb:
> As a jazz musician, I play a lot of corporate events and parties. For 
> years
> I thought the crowd would get louder every time we began to play, but
now I 
> think the perception that the crowd is getting louder is a result of
focus, 
> i.e. when we begin to play we focus on sound, giving the impression
that all 
> sounds get louder including the crowd noise.
> 
> That being said, I have to admit that I have attended lute concerts 
> given by
> some of the leading lights of the lute world for audiences numbering
in the 
> hundreds where the lute literally could not be heard at all past the
seventh 
> or eighth row. Very frustating to pay $35-$80 for a ticket only to
find out 
> you will not be able to hear the lute no matter how focused you are. I
think 
> if we're going to play for audiences this large, some sound
reinforcement 
> may become necessary even though it is a compromise. Other instruments
have 
> had to deal with this problem. Jazz bassists amplify the double bass,
even 
> though the best and purest sound of the double bass is thereby
compromised, 
> in order to be heard.
> 
> Gary
> 
> - Original Message -
> From: "Ron Andrico" 
> To: ; 
> Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2010 11:29 AM
> Subject: [LUTE] Lute volume
> 
> 
> >   To All:
> >   We have a new post on our blog that may be of general lute
interest,
> >   concerning volume in performance.
> >
http://mignarda.wordpress.com/2010/10/16/sound-check-is-it-loud-enough/
> >   Best wishes,
> >   Ron & Donna
> >   www.mignarda.com
> >   --
> >
> >
> > To get on or off this list see list information at 
> > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> >
> 
> 
> --
> --
> 
> 
> 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 9.0.862 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3199 - Release Date: 
> 10/15/10
> 11:34:00
> 
> 
> 


-- 
Viele Grüße

Mathias Rösel

http://mathiasroesel.livejournal.com 
http://www.myspace.com/mathiasroesel 

[LUTE] Re: dodecaphonic lute/ NeoBaroque and new Dm lute music

[Roman Turovsky]

From: "Anthony Hind" 

  Perhaps, T. Satoh's works could be classified as Neo-Renaissance or
  Baroque; but there seems to have been an unbroken Japanese ancient
  music tradition up to the present, from which contemporary Japanese
  composers can almost directly borrow, and TS can surely rely on this
  continued skill even when borrowing from early forms of Western Music,
  which might lead to a less artificial modern "transfusion".
  [5]http://www.channelclassics.com/works-of-toyohoko-satoh-1.html
  [6]http://www.channelclassics.com/works-of-toyohiko-satoh-2.html
  Other relatively unbroken traditions might include Scottish or Irish

Rob MacKillop has done a few things in the former.


  (and perhaps central European RT?) folk-baroque.

If "RT" was referring to your humble servant -
The Ukrainian tradition is not quite Central European, but is probably the 
most relatively unbroken of all, as
well as the most lutenistically relevant. I also have been very lucky to be 
able to actively participate in it and work

directly with its most authentic carriers.
RT









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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] 42 Hennen Dantz

[Peter Nightingale]

Dear All and David van Ooijen, specifically,

I was listening to "42. Hennen Dantz" 
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRW2GvbQhhg) 
 and was wondering how you 
decided to deal with the "3" in measure 17 as you do, i.e., if you count 
the first 16 bars in four beats, you keep three of the same from bar 17 
onward.  Am I off the charts wrong to think that you you could have 
counted the first 16 bars in two beats each and then used one of those 
beats for each bar starting at the 3 in measure 17?

Regards,
Peter.

the next auto-quote is:
Operationally, God is beginning to resemble not a ruler
but the last fading smile of a cosmic Cheshire Cat.
(Julian Huxley)
/\/\
Peter Nightingale  Telephone (401) 874-5882
Department of Physics, East Hall   Fax (401) 874-2380
University of Rhode Island Kingston, RI 02881



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[LUTE] Re: Lute volume

[Christopher Wilke]

Gary,

--- On Sun, 10/17/10, Gary Digman  wrote:
> 
> That being said, I have to admit that I have attended lute
> concerts given by some of the leading lights of the lute
> world for audiences numbering in the hundreds where the lute
> literally could not be heard at all past the seventh or
> eighth row. Very frustating to pay $35-$80 for a ticket only
> to find out you will not be able to hear the lute no matter
> how focused you are. I think if we're going to play for
> audiences this large, some sound reinforcement may become
> necessary even though it is a compromise. Other instruments
> have had to deal with this problem. Jazz bassists amplify
> the double bass, even though the best and purest sound of
> the double bass is thereby compromised, in order to be
> heard.
> 

Back when I got my Master's in classical guitar, projection was a major focus 
of our training.  While the ability to produce a dynamically nuanced 
performance was assumed and formed a major part of our grades, we were also 
expected to understand the practicalities of performing in less than ideal 
circumstances.  We were told repeatedly: get to the hall early; have someone 
listen to you as you test the dynamic threshold; be prepared to let go of some 
of the precious dynamic or phrasing ideas you worked out alone in the practice 
room; you might want to consider moving your right hand position a little 
closer to the bridge as a general position for this concert; descend to really 
low volume as a special effect only were dramatically appropriate - maybe once 
or twice in a program; above all, HAVE REGARD FOR YOUR LISTENERS.

I've never encountered this in my lute training, where the emphasis has been 
decidedly on working out even more subtle gradations.  This is all well and 
good - professionals should have total control over the instrument - but what 
about the people on the other side of the lute?  There's no reason a lute can't 
feature in the same size halls as classical guitar.  Although the overall 
volume is slightly less, it carries far better than the comparatively 
bass-heavy, mellow modern guitar. 

The real problem comes down to two culprits: the myth of the lute as "mystical 
window to another era," and the strong-weak articulation.  I'm prepared dismiss 
the former, a view which embraces the idea of the lute as some sort of delicate 
magical device whose spell will be broken if its voice rises above a hush, 
because this is a fairly tale modernism.  The latter is more difficult.  We all 
know that good-bad, strong-weak alternation was part of early music.  In 
practical terms, however, if you're playing in a large hall and no one can hear 
your weak notes, the audience is literally missing half of what you're playing. 
 A player might have to settle for strong-less strong or REALLY STRONG-strong 
or even strong-strong in some cases.  Sorry, you might just have to eschew 
showing off what an erudite, HIP musician you are in lieu of showing off the 
music.  

I once took a large group of my classical guitar students to hear a big name 
lutenist who was performing in a not-especially-large venue.  My students all 
said that the concert was boring because the performer only played simple 
little pieces.  When I actually showed them the sheet music to some of the 
pieces played, they couldn't believe the degree of musical sophistication 
involved.  They left with the impression that the lute had some great music 
written for you, but its really a weak little instrument.  I had to sympathize 
with their position because I too felt that many of the subtleties of the music 
never got to the audience due to the incredibly intimate, sensitive touch of 
the performer.  As a lute fan, I could appreciate the performer's awesome 
control, but I could not actually experience it.  Ultimately, despite great 
artistry, this person was really a poor ambassador for the instrument.

Chris





> Gary
> 
> - Original Message - From: "Ron Andrico" 
> To: ;
> 
> Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2010 11:29 AM
> Subject: [LUTE] Lute volume
> 
> 
> >   To All:
> >   We have a new post on our blog that
> may be of general lute interest,
> >   concerning volume in performance.
> >   http://mignarda.wordpress.com/2010/10/16/sound-check-is-it-loud-enough/
> >   Best wishes,
> >   Ron & Donna
> >   www.mignarda.com
> >   --
> > 
> > 
> > To get on or off this list see list information at
> > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 9.0.862 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3199 - Release
> Date: 10/15/10 11:34:00
> 
> 
> 


  

[LUTE] Re: Lute volume

[Mathias Rösel]

Judge for yourself:
http://service.gmx.net/de/cgi/derefer?TYPE=2&DEST=http%3A%2F%2Fservice%2Egmx%2Enet%2Fde%2Fcgi%2Fdfstools%3Fopenid%3D30949%2E1287316081%26o%3D959384029%2E1287316082%26cmd%3Dopen%26file%3D04%2BGigue%2BWach%2Bauf%2BMs1645%255FMatthias%2BRebecca%2B%2B%252Emp3%26folder%3D%252F
(last Sunday, Cottbus). In the beginning, or so I was later told, a
woman said, now a mike is needed, but after a short while she could dela
with it. As a matter of fact, there was a lot of echo in the huge
cathedral. But focussing does the trick. Or so I was told >8)

Mathias

"Gary Digman"  schrieb:
> As a jazz musician, I play a lot of corporate events and parties. For years 
> I thought the crowd would get louder every time we began to play, but now I 
> think the perception that the crowd is getting louder is a result of focus, 
> i.e. when we begin to play we focus on sound, giving the impression that all 
> sounds get louder including the crowd noise.
> 
> That being said, I have to admit that I have attended lute concerts given by 
> some of the leading lights of the lute world for audiences numbering in the 
> hundreds where the lute literally could not be heard at all past the seventh 
> or eighth row. Very frustating to pay $35-$80 for a ticket only to find out 
> you will not be able to hear the lute no matter how focused you are. I think 
> if we're going to play for audiences this large, some sound reinforcement 
> may become necessary even though it is a compromise. Other instruments have 
> had to deal with this problem. Jazz bassists amplify the double bass, even 
> though the best and purest sound of the double bass is thereby compromised, 
> in order to be heard.
> 
> Gary
> 
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Ron Andrico" 
> To: ; 
> Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2010 11:29 AM
> Subject: [LUTE] Lute volume
> 
> 
> >   To All:
> >   We have a new post on our blog that may be of general lute interest,
> >   concerning volume in performance.
> >   http://mignarda.wordpress.com/2010/10/16/sound-check-is-it-loud-enough/
> >   Best wishes,
> >   Ron & Donna
> >   www.mignarda.com
> >   --
> >
> >
> > To get on or off this list see list information at
> > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 9.0.862 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3199 - Release Date: 10/15/10 
> 11:34:00
> 
> 
> 


-- 
Viele Grüße

Mathias Rösel

http://mathiasroesel.livejournal.com 
http://www.myspace.com/mathiasroesel 

[LUTE] Theorbo for sale

[Stefan Olof Lundgren]

Dear Luteplayers!

Are You looking for something special? For some years I've played a
14-course Theorbo.
Several photos here: http://www.luteonline.se/theorbo_for_sale_2010.htm

It has the body of the instrument in the Germanisches Museum in Nürnberg
(MIR 903) by Lepold Widhalm in 1755 and the same stringlength (74 cm.) for
the stopped strings. But with a "chitarrone"-length (160 cm.) for the
bordunes. The idea was to get the full sound of the d-minor "baroque lute" +
the clear sound of the low basses of the "chitarrone". I have used it for
playing solo-theorbo music by Visée, transcriptions of the Bach cello-suites
and my own pieces. The tuning has been the normal theorbo-tuning in A with
single strings on all 14 strings. The instrument was made by Josef Kreisel
(Germany) in 2005.

Now, why am I selling it when it is such a great instrument? Well, since I
liked it so much I ordered another one from the same maker just to have a
"stand in" if something would happen. But after getting the new one and
spending some time playing it, the "original" was just standing around, and
that have been for two years now. AND I need a new PC and HD-camcorder for
future videoproductions! So, take Your chance. A new instrument with a hard
cover case costs today about EUR 4300. I bought this instrument for EUR 3600
and You will get it for EUR 3000!

You can hear and see the instrument on these two You tube videos:

Troll Eyes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMJSAJY5QzA&feature=channel

Josef Kreisel, Lutemaker (in the very end of this video you can see both
instruments.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PwiZ6KqNbo&feature=channel

I live in Sweden and at the end of november I'll be in Münich and
Alteglofsheim (Bavaria) for a week. Let hear from You and we will make a
date!

All the best

Stefan

www.luteonline.se



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: dodecaphonic lute/ NeoBaroque and new Dm lute music

[Anthony Hind]

   Dear Stuart and all
   "But I think serial music could work on a lute or lutes." Stuart

  I was thinking eactly the same thing Stuart (nice playing and
   piece), while I was mulling over the previous Baroque lute thread "New
   music to d-minor tuning?", and trying to clarify my thoughts.
   Appologies for thinking aloud:
 No one mentionned the two (possibly three) pieces written by the
   Australian composer, Robert Allworth for Baroque lute, available from
   the Australian Music Centre.
   [1]http://tinyurl.com/create.php
   %
   I believe at least two of these pieces were written for Susan King,
   including a 12 tone style composition for solo Dm lute, "Memories of
   Rain".
   The sheet music and a recorded extract can be found here:
   [2]http://tinyurl.com/2e99dzg
   %
   I heard Susan play this in a Parisian Salon (I think on her beautiful
   11c lute having belonged to Michael Schaeffer made by Michael Lowe).
   Her playing  is subtle (more so than seems on this "amplified" recorded
   extract), and I enjoyed the piece, but perhaps others would prefer
   something more neo-baroque.
   %
   It is true that the lute generally projects less than the Theorbo
   (Jerzy Zak) and even during the baroque era, the latter did tend to
   dominate in orchestral ensembles; but I do think a lute can work quite
   well in small ensembles or with voice or flute.
   %
   An example of this can be found in Allworth's concerto for French
   Baroque lute, harp, violin, viola da gamba, here:
   [3]http://tinyurl.com/26dyuxt
   I believe this was also written for Susan King; but this short extract
   admittedly does not allow a clear judgement, and I have'nt heard the
   complete recording.
   %
   However, I suggest, except for the acoustics of modern auditoriums, as
   proved by the above (and Stuart's work), serial-type music could be
   applied to any instrument including the lute.
   %
   There is a recording of contemporary music by Pete Soderberg, but I
   don't know on what type of lute it has been performed; and it is of
   course not music specifically written for the lute. Although, if
   successful (and I have not heard it) it could show how apt the lute is
   to perform such music.
   [4]http://tinyurl.com/33m6wzl
   If you have heard it, I would like your comments.
   %
   Perhaps, T. Satoh's works could be classified as Neo-Renaissance or
   Baroque; but there seems to have been an unbroken Japanese ancient
   music tradition up to the present, from which contemporary Japanese
   composers can almost directly borrow, and TS can surely rely on this
   continued skill even when borrowing from early forms of Western Music,
   which might lead to a less artificial modern "transfusion".
   [5]http://www.channelclassics.com/works-of-toyohoko-satoh-1.html
   [6]http://www.channelclassics.com/works-of-toyohiko-satoh-2.html
   %
   Other relatively unbroken traditions might include Scottish or Irish
   (and perhaps central European RT?) folk-baroque. Perhaps, Maxwell
   Davies, now in his quieter Orkney's mode, could be persuaded to write
   something for Rob Mackillop's sensitive playing?
   [7]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOuauqi2oBM&feature=related
   (although I personally far prefer MD's Neo-Baroque adventure with the
   Fires of London).
   %
   Actually, I think there are more than one interpretation of the
   expression "Neo-Baroque",
   depending on the degree of "newness" one feels "Neo" expresses (see
   neologism).
   At least one sense of this I feel, could be a contemporary music
   obtained by abstraction through synthesizing of the principles of
   Baroque construction, and fusing it with elements of modern
   composition. In other words a "new Baroque" but in which features of
   the old remain clearly audible, not just new pieces created by someone
   who has mastered the rules of French or German baroque composition
   which I would prefer to call Baroque revival.
   Although I see "Neo" in Neo-classical can receive this weaker meaning,
   albeit only if the composition adds something new to what has already
   been said by the Classical masters:
   "an artist, well schooled and comfortably familiar with the canon, does
   not repeat it in lifeless reproductions, but synthesizes the tradition
   anew in each work. (...)  a neoclassical artist who fails to achieve
   (this) may create works that are inane, vacuous or even mediocre,
   gaffes of taste and failures of craftsmanship are not commonly
   neoclassical failings."
   [8]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoclassicism   (sorry, I see no
   author)
   %
   In order to create a new Baroque in the stronger sense, I feel (as
   suggested above) a composer must have been steeped in a musical
   tradition in order to operate such an abstraction, which implies either
   no break in the tradition, or a period of Baroque revival (as hopefully
   at present). Could I be allowed, in that sense, to consider Schoenberg
   (at least

[LUTE] Re: new piece of the month

[Martin Shepherd]

Thanks, Nancy.  I've looked again at my copy of the MS and mostly it's 
pretty clear, but damp damage at the tops of pages has obscured a few 
things:


bar 1, events 2-4: top part
bar 56: middle of bar, but the logic is clear here
bar 59: most of bar, but the rhythm signs are all just about legible, 
also events 1-3, 7-9 and 10-12


The other thing I noticed is that the # sign occurs three times, each 
time written in the middle of the stave (not next to a note):


bar 1 (before first chord)
bar 23, event 7
bar 38, event 1

I doubt that these are intended as signs for graces. Holmes seems to 
have used the # to cross out a copying mistake or indicate the location 
of such a mistake, to indicate a grace, or for no discernable reason at 
all!  Looking through Dd.2.11 and Dd.5.78, it is quite rare, and quite 
often occurs just two or three times in the course of a piece, and then 
at places where a grace is impossible or seems unlikely.  But just 
occasionally, it occurs about 20 times on one page (see the first page 
of Lachrimae in Dd.5.78) and in sensible places - then it seems it is 
being used to indicate graces.  So I think we have to be very 
circumspect in interpreting this sign.


Best wishes,

Martin

On 16/10/2010 19:05, Nancy Carlin wrote:

Thank you, thank you for this piece. I have been fascinated with it for
quite a while and about a year ago asked the list if anyone knew where
to find it. Ron Andrico got back to me with a link to the music, which
he has on his web site. So now what is really interesting is the
differences that Ron and Martin have in their versions of the piece. I
am eagerly waiting for Dd.2.11 to be available so I can get a real copy
of it to replace the fuzzy old microfilm I have, but assume at least
some of the different notes come from guessing what is written at the
top of the pages where it looks like there is mildew damage.  The
biggest difference between the 2 versions is measure 31, which was
probably unreadable. The other differences are mostly from places where
Holmes wrote notes on the lines instead of in the spaces and Ron and
Martin chose a line above or below each other.
About those ornaments - Martin wrote THE article on ornament in the
1996 The Lute "The Interpretation of Sings for Graces in English Lute
Music," pp37-84. You can easily buy a copy of it from the Lute Society
(UK)'s web site.
It's also interesting that Martin has named it "Dump" rather than
"Ground."  It looks like it's loosely built on a 6 measure chord
progression to me, and some of the Dumps have shorter, sometimes only 2
chord grounds.If you want to look at other lute grounds there is
one on with web site
[1]www.groundsanddivisions.info
from the Euing manuscript, and there is one very strange one for
bandora that I transcribed for lute in my article on bandora music.
That one is 2 variations on 2 different chord progressions stuck
together and I am beginning to think it might be a bass part from an
ensemble piece.
Nancy
At 08:34 AM 10/16/2010, Martin Shepherd wrote:

   With apologies for the long gap in this series, a new piece of the
  month has finally escaped from my music room, played on a new lute
  after Maler (67cm) strung entirely in gut.
  [2]http://www.luteshop.co.uk/month/pieceofthemonth.htm
  You'll want to play this piece (you'll probably also want to play
  the lute, but sorry it belongs to somebody else!).
  Best wishes,
  Martin
  To get on or off this list see list information at
  [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

Nancy Carlin Associates
P.O. Box 6499
Concord, CA 94524  USA
phone 925/686-5800 fax 925/680-2582
web sites - [4]www.nancycarlinassociates.com
[5]www.groundsanddivisions.info
Representing:
FROM WALES - Crasdant&  Carreg Lafar,  FROM ENGLAND - Jez Lowe&  Jez
Lowe&  The Bad Pennies, and now representing EARLY MUSIC - The Venere
Lute Quartet, The Good Pennyworths&  Morrongiello&  Young
Administrator THE LUTE SOCIETY OF AMERICA
web site - [6]http://LuteSocietyofAmerica.org
--

References

1. http://www.groundsanddivisions.info/
2. http://www.luteshop.co.uk/month/pieceofthemonth.htm
3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
4. http://www.nancycarlinassociates.com/
5. http://www.groundsanddivisions.info/
6. http://lutesocietyofamerica.org/

[LUTE] Re: new piece of the month

[Martin Shepherd]

Pictures coming soon.  It has a figured ash back, cherry neck and pegbox 
and boxwood bridge and fingerboard.  Rainforest friendly, at least.


Martin

On 17/10/2010 03:38, Ed Durbrow wrote:

Very nicely played and ornamented. Pictures of that lute???

On Oct 17, 2010, at 12:34 AM, Martin Shepherd wrote:

With apologies for the long gap in this series, a new piece of the
month has finally escaped from my music room, played on a new lute
after Maler (67cm) strung entirely in gut.
[1]http://www.luteshop.co.uk/month/pieceofthemonth.htm
You'll want to play this piece (you'll probably also want to play the
lute, but sorry it belongs to somebody else!).
Best wishes,
Martin
To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

Ed Durbrow
Saitama, Japan
[2]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
[3]http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/

--

References

1. http://www.luteshop.co.uk/month/pieceofthemonth.htm
2. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
3. http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/

[LUTE] Re: Lute volume

[Stephan Olbertz]

Actually for most people any music is a signal to _not_ listen and start  
talking. :-)

That's what they are used to with pop music.
When I played gigs with guitar and flute, we tried to play when they were  
eating, that was a lot more quiet. :-)


Stephan

Am 17.10.2010, 08:29 Uhr, schrieb Gary Digman :

As a jazz musician, I play a lot of corporate events and parties. For  
years I thought the crowd would get louder every time we began to play,  
but now I think the perception that the crowd is getting louder is a  
result of focus, i.e. when we begin to play we focus on sound, giving  
the impression that all sounds get louder including the crowd noise.


That being said, I have to admit that I have attended lute concerts  
given by some of the leading lights of the lute world for audiences  
numbering in the hundreds where the lute literally could not be heard at  
all past the seventh or eighth row. Very frustating to pay $35-$80 for a  
ticket only to find out you will not be able to hear the lute no matter  
how focused you are. I think if we're going to play for audiences this  
large, some sound reinforcement may become necessary even though it is a  
compromise. Other instruments have had to deal with this problem. Jazz  
bassists amplify the double bass, even though the best and purest sound  
of the double bass is thereby compromised, in order to be heard.


Gary

- Original Message - From: "Ron Andrico" 
To: ; 
Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2010 11:29 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Lute volume



  To All:
  We have a new post on our blog that may be of general lute interest,
  concerning volume in performance.
  http://mignarda.wordpress.com/2010/10/16/sound-check-is-it-loud-enough/
  Best wishes,
  Ron & Donna
  www.mignarda.com
  --


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html








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