[LUTE] Bach’s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted
Jarek, I thinks the available evidence pretty much points where Clive thinks it does, and I am inclined to agree with him, notwithstanding Vasily Antipov, an excellent Russian player who actually can perform "Lute Suites" as written (he knows no technical difficulties). The "Lute Suites" are simply not performable by an average professional player (unlike the rest of JSB's works), and that is the ultimate giveaway (besides being out of lutenistic character). RT From: "Jarosław Lipski" Roman, I do not share your dislike for musicology. It pays really big service to all of us I suppose. It has its rules and trespassing them creates the effect you are talking about. I am just saying that the available evidence on so called Lute Suites does not entitle us to make very definite statements that Bach never ever wrote anything with a lute in mind apart from 2 small movements in his Passions. It would be not too difficult to create a contradictory theory, but this kind of speculation seems to be rather a waste of time. JL Wiadomość napisana przez Roman Turovsky w dniu 29 kwi 2012, o godz. 23:01: a geetar then. Phrases like "there is some likelihood that item X might very well could have been item Y" may work in some musicological situations, but not in the case of our "Lute Suites". RT - Original Message - From: "Jarosław Lipski" To: Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2012 4:50 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Re: Re: Bach’s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted but in this case a spade is not a spade :) JL Wiadomość napisana przez Roman Turovsky w dniu 29 kwi 2012, o godz. 22:32: Yes, but - sometimes we have to give up the musicological mumbo-jumbo, and just call a spade a spade. RT - Original Message - From: "Jarosław Lipski" To: Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2012 4:24 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Re: Bach’s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted Eugene, Well, saying that "the evidence would be that Bach did not write any music specifically intended for solo lute" sounds to me (do correct me if I'm wrong) a little bit like a definite statement or a final argument, doesn't it? There is nothing wrong in having doubts and expressing them publicly, but making new theories is another matter. I greatly recommend David Ledbetters book "Unaccompanied Bach" (as mentioned) which deals with all available data concerning this subject in detail. There are many question marks and unfortunately no simple answers so far, I am afraid. However it can be agreed that there are no so called Bach lute suites if we understand them the same way that some guitarists used to believe in past, but then the question is what guitarist and how can we judge someones knowledge. It's much better to present bare facts letting people decide what they can make of it, IMHO. My 2 cents Best regards Jaroslaw Wiadomość napisana przez Braig, Eugene w dniu 26 kwi 2012, o godz. 22:01: I wholeheartedly agree, jl. Fortunately, I don't believe the little article discussed here did make any such definitive statements. I think it did a fair job of presenting evidence with relative objectivity. Eugene From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] on behalf of Jarosław Lipski [jaroslawlip...@wp.pl] Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2012 3:06 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bach’s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted Discussion is always a good thing, the problem begins when someone makes very definite statements like- the evidence would be that Bach did not write any music specifically intended for solo lute - or -You know what I am going to say next–perhaps you should sit down I understand that it was addressed to guitar players, but still we need more evidence before trying to convince someone that A or B is true. Musicology is a tricky bussiness and there is a lot of speculation on lute pieces by Bach. I'd rather use some arguments from available scholarly literature than made ad hoc theories, unless the reason for this was to stir a discussion. jl Wiadomoœæ napisana przez t...@heartistrymusic.com w dniu 26 kwi 2012, o godz. 20:02: ... It's obviously a bit of popular-press fluff, not even quite "gray literature," but that stuff tends to reach much more of the general public than scholarly literature ever will. > Eugene I agree. The interesting thing to me on this topic is the response it is getting from the Lute list. Yes, you lutenists who have been at it for 20 - 30 years already know this, but I think that in all likelihood, the rest of the music world does not. An article like this on a "guitar site" (nose upturned?) will probably reach a lot more people, and therefore could be a good thing, bringing more attention to lutes from other musical disciplines. Something I have noticed in reading liner notes to CDs / LPs is that, for example, keyboard afficianodos sometimes seem to be unaware that a Bach piece was also
[LUTE] Emperor Rudolf II
Holy Roman Emperor Rudolf II from Bohemia (ca late 1500s -1612?), was such a patron of the arts and sciences, did he sponsor any significant lutenist/composers? Are there collections (Mss, books) from this era during his reign? It seems like Bohemia, esp Prague, under Rudolf II was a very intellectially and artistically rich place, I would be surprised if there wasn't a significant lute presence/contribution during this era (unless he personally didn't like the lute?) trj -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Re: Re: Re: Bach’s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted
Roman, I do not share your dislike for musicology. It pays really big service to all of us I suppose. It has its rules and trespassing them creates the effect you are talking about. I am just saying that the available evidence on so called Lute Suites does not entitle us to make very definite statements that Bach never ever wrote anything with a lute in mind apart from 2 small movements in his Passions. It would be not too difficult to create a contradictory theory, but this kind of speculation seems to be rather a waste of time. JL Wiadomość napisana przez Roman Turovsky w dniu 29 kwi 2012, o godz. 23:01: > a geetar then. > Phrases like "there is some likelihood that item X might very well could have > been item Y" > may work in some musicological situations, but not in the case of our "Lute > Suites". > RT > > - Original Message - From: "Jarosław Lipski" > To: > Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2012 4:50 PM > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Re: Re: Bach’s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted > > >> but in this case a spade is not a spade :) >> JL >> >> >> Wiadomość napisana przez Roman Turovsky w dniu 29 kwi 2012, o godz. 22:32: >> >>> Yes, >>> but - >>> sometimes we have to give up the musicological mumbo-jumbo, >>> and just call a spade a spade. >>> RT >>> >>> - Original Message - From: "Jarosław Lipski" >>> To: >>> Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2012 4:24 PM >>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Re: Bach’s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted >>> >>> Eugene, Well, saying that "the evidence would be that Bach did not write any music specifically intended for solo lute" sounds to me (do correct me if I'm wrong) a little bit like a definite statement or a final argument, doesn't it? There is nothing wrong in having doubts and expressing them publicly, but making new theories is another matter. I greatly recommend David Ledbetters book "Unaccompanied Bach" (as mentioned) which deals with all available data concerning this subject in detail. There are many question marks and unfortunately no simple answers so far, I am afraid. However it can be agreed that there are no so called Bach lute suites if we understand them the same way that some guitarists used to believe in past, but then the question is what guitarist and how can we judge someones knowledge. It's much better to present bare facts letting people decide what they can make of it, IMHO. My 2 cents Best regards Jaroslaw Wiadomość napisana przez Braig, Eugene w dniu 26 kwi 2012, o godz. 22:01: > I wholeheartedly agree, jl. Fortunately, I don't believe the little > article discussed here did make any such definitive statements. I think > it did a fair job of presenting evidence with relative objectivity. > > Eugene > > From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] on behalf of > Jarosław Lipski [jaroslawlip...@wp.pl] > Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2012 3:06 PM > To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bach’s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted > > Discussion is always a good thing, the problem begins when someone makes > very definite statements like- the evidence would be that Bach did not > write any music specifically intended for solo lute > - or -You know what I am going to say next–perhaps you should sit down > I understand that it was addressed to guitar players, but still we need > more evidence before trying to convince someone that A or B is true. > Musicology is a tricky bussiness and there is a lot of speculation on > lute pieces by Bach. I'd rather use some arguments from available > scholarly literature than made ad hoc theories, unless the reason for > this was to stir a discussion. > > jl > > > Wiadomoœæ napisana przez t...@heartistrymusic.com w dniu 26 kwi 2012, o > godz. 20:02: > >>> ... It's obviously a bit of >>> popular-press fluff, not even quite "gray literature," but that stuff >>> tends to reach much more of the general public than scholarly >>> literature ever will. > Eugene >> I agree. >> The interesting thing to me on this topic is the response it is getting >> from the Lute list. Yes, you lutenists who have been at it for 20 - 30 >> years already know this, but I think that in all likelihood, the rest of >> the >> music world does not. An article like this on a "guitar site" (nose >> upturned?) >> will probably reach a lot more people, and therefore could be a good >> thing, >> bringing more attention to lutes from other musical disciplines. >> Something >> I have noticed in reading liner notes to CDs / LPs is that, for example, >> keyboard afficianodos sometimes seem to be unaware that a Bach piece >> was also arrang
[LUTE] Bach’s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted
a geetar then. Phrases like "there is some likelihood that item X might very well could have been item Y" may work in some musicological situations, but not in the case of our "Lute Suites". RT - Original Message - From: "Jarosław Lipski" To: Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2012 4:50 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Re: Re: Bach’s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted but in this case a spade is not a spade :) JL Wiadomość napisana przez Roman Turovsky w dniu 29 kwi 2012, o godz. 22:32: Yes, but - sometimes we have to give up the musicological mumbo-jumbo, and just call a spade a spade. RT - Original Message - From: "Jarosław Lipski" To: Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2012 4:24 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Re: Bach’s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted Eugene, Well, saying that "the evidence would be that Bach did not write any music specifically intended for solo lute" sounds to me (do correct me if I'm wrong) a little bit like a definite statement or a final argument, doesn't it? There is nothing wrong in having doubts and expressing them publicly, but making new theories is another matter. I greatly recommend David Ledbetters book "Unaccompanied Bach" (as mentioned) which deals with all available data concerning this subject in detail. There are many question marks and unfortunately no simple answers so far, I am afraid. However it can be agreed that there are no so called Bach lute suites if we understand them the same way that some guitarists used to believe in past, but then the question is what guitarist and how can we judge someones knowledge. It's much better to present bare facts letting people decide what they can make of it, IMHO. My 2 cents Best regards Jaroslaw Wiadomość napisana przez Braig, Eugene w dniu 26 kwi 2012, o godz. 22:01: I wholeheartedly agree, jl. Fortunately, I don't believe the little article discussed here did make any such definitive statements. I think it did a fair job of presenting evidence with relative objectivity. Eugene From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] on behalf of Jarosław Lipski [jaroslawlip...@wp.pl] Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2012 3:06 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bach’s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted Discussion is always a good thing, the problem begins when someone makes very definite statements like- the evidence would be that Bach did not write any music specifically intended for solo lute - or -You know what I am going to say next–perhaps you should sit down I understand that it was addressed to guitar players, but still we need more evidence before trying to convince someone that A or B is true. Musicology is a tricky bussiness and there is a lot of speculation on lute pieces by Bach. I'd rather use some arguments from available scholarly literature than made ad hoc theories, unless the reason for this was to stir a discussion. jl Wiadomoœæ napisana przez t...@heartistrymusic.com w dniu 26 kwi 2012, o godz. 20:02: ... It's obviously a bit of popular-press fluff, not even quite "gray literature," but that stuff tends to reach much more of the general public than scholarly literature ever will. > Eugene I agree. The interesting thing to me on this topic is the response it is getting from the Lute list. Yes, you lutenists who have been at it for 20 - 30 years already know this, but I think that in all likelihood, the rest of the music world does not. An article like this on a "guitar site" (nose upturned?) will probably reach a lot more people, and therefore could be a good thing, bringing more attention to lutes from other musical disciplines. Something I have noticed in reading liner notes to CDs / LPs is that, for example, keyboard afficianodos sometimes seem to be unaware that a Bach piece was also arranged by the man himself for other instruments. The same is true for violin, etc. "Any press is good press - even bad press." I personally think that the more people write about these things, the better. And if you have pertinent info that this writer doesn't seem to have, maybe they would like to know about it? Knowledge, especially accurate knowledge, is best shared with the world. And anything done to place the word Lute in front of a wider audience is going to be good for lutes and lutenists. I'll look forward to future responses. Tom However, there is at least a fair amount of reference to primary source material (the manuscripts themselves). It's obviously a bit of popular-press fluff, not even quite "gray literature," but that stuff tends to reach much more of the general public than scholarly literature ever will. Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Stephan Olbertz Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2012 4:35 AM Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Re: Bach´s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted
[LUTE] Re: Re: Re: Bach’s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted
but in this case a spade is not a spade :) JL Wiadomość napisana przez Roman Turovsky w dniu 29 kwi 2012, o godz. 22:32: > Yes, > but - > sometimes we have to give up the musicological mumbo-jumbo, > and just call a spade a spade. > RT > > - Original Message - From: "Jarosław Lipski" > To: > Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2012 4:24 PM > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Re: Bach’s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted > > >> Eugene, >> >> Well, saying that "the evidence would be that Bach did not write any music >> specifically intended for solo lute" sounds to me (do correct me if I'm >> wrong) a little bit like a definite statement or a final argument, doesn't >> it? There is nothing wrong in having doubts and expressing them publicly, >> but making new theories is another matter. I greatly recommend David >> Ledbetters book "Unaccompanied Bach" (as mentioned) which deals with all >> available data concerning this subject in detail. There are many question >> marks and unfortunately no simple answers so far, I am afraid. >> However it can be agreed that there are no so called Bach lute suites if we >> understand them the same way that some guitarists used to believe in past, >> but then the question is what guitarist and how can we judge someones >> knowledge. It's much better to present bare facts letting people decide >> what they can make of it, IMHO. >> My 2 cents >> >> Best regards >> >> Jaroslaw >> >> >> >> Wiadomość napisana przez Braig, Eugene w dniu 26 kwi 2012, o godz. 22:01: >> >>> I wholeheartedly agree, jl. Fortunately, I don't believe the little >>> article discussed here did make any such definitive statements. I think it >>> did a fair job of presenting evidence with relative objectivity. >>> >>> Eugene >>> >>> From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] on behalf of >>> Jarosław Lipski [jaroslawlip...@wp.pl] >>> Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2012 3:06 PM >>> To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bach’s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted >>> >>> Discussion is always a good thing, the problem begins when someone makes >>> very definite statements like- the evidence would be that Bach did not >>> write any music specifically intended for solo lute >>> - or -You know what I am going to say next–perhaps you should sit down >>> I understand that it was addressed to guitar players, but still we need >>> more evidence before trying to convince someone that A or B is true. >>> Musicology is a tricky bussiness and there is a lot of speculation on lute >>> pieces by Bach. I'd rather use some arguments from available scholarly >>> literature than made ad hoc theories, unless the reason for this was to >>> stir a discussion. >>> >>> jl >>> >>> >>> Wiadomoœæ napisana przez t...@heartistrymusic.com w dniu 26 kwi 2012, o >>> godz. 20:02: >>> > ... It's obviously a bit of > popular-press fluff, not even quite "gray literature," but that stuff > tends to reach much more of the general public than scholarly > literature ever will. > Eugene I agree. The interesting thing to me on this topic is the response it is getting from the Lute list. Yes, you lutenists who have been at it for 20 - 30 years already know this, but I think that in all likelihood, the rest of the music world does not. An article like this on a "guitar site" (nose upturned?) will probably reach a lot more people, and therefore could be a good thing, bringing more attention to lutes from other musical disciplines. Something I have noticed in reading liner notes to CDs / LPs is that, for example, keyboard afficianodos sometimes seem to be unaware that a Bach piece was also arranged by the man himself for other instruments. The same is true for violin, etc. "Any press is good press - even bad press." I personally think that the more people write about these things, the better. And if you have pertinent info that this writer doesn't seem to have, maybe they would like to know about it? Knowledge, especially accurate knowledge, is best shared with the world. And anything done to place the word Lute in front of a wider audience is going to be good for lutes and lutenists. I'll look forward to future responses. Tom > However, there is at least a fair amount of reference to primary > source material (the manuscripts themselves). It's obviously a bit of > popular-press fluff, not even quite "gray literature," but that stuff > tends to reach much more of the general public than scholarly > literature ever will. > > Eugene > > -Original Message- > From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On > Behalf Of Stephan Olbertz Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2012 4:35 AM Cc: > lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Re: Bach´s L
[LUTE] Re: Selling a guitar
Am 29.04.2012 22:27, schrieb Stewart McCoy: A friend of mine is trying to sell a 4-course renaissance guitar. I suggested he try Wayne's site at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute/forsale.html . Are there any other websites - lute, guitar, ukulele - where instruments can be advertised for sale? Any help much appreciated. Well, the fantastic website http://www.lute-academy.be/advertenties/advertenties-en.php comes to mind :-) best wishes Bernd To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Bach’s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted
Yes, but - sometimes we have to give up the musicological mumbo-jumbo, and just call a spade a spade. RT - Original Message - From: "Jarosław Lipski" To: Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2012 4:24 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Re: Bach’s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted Eugene, Well, saying that "the evidence would be that Bach did not write any music specifically intended for solo lute" sounds to me (do correct me if I'm wrong) a little bit like a definite statement or a final argument, doesn't it? There is nothing wrong in having doubts and expressing them publicly, but making new theories is another matter. I greatly recommend David Ledbetters book "Unaccompanied Bach" (as mentioned) which deals with all available data concerning this subject in detail. There are many question marks and unfortunately no simple answers so far, I am afraid. However it can be agreed that there are no so called Bach lute suites if we understand them the same way that some guitarists used to believe in past, but then the question is what guitarist and how can we judge someones knowledge. It's much better to present bare facts letting people decide what they can make of it, IMHO. My 2 cents Best regards Jaroslaw Wiadomość napisana przez Braig, Eugene w dniu 26 kwi 2012, o godz. 22:01: I wholeheartedly agree, jl. Fortunately, I don't believe the little article discussed here did make any such definitive statements. I think it did a fair job of presenting evidence with relative objectivity. Eugene From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] on behalf of Jarosław Lipski [jaroslawlip...@wp.pl] Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2012 3:06 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bach’s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted Discussion is always a good thing, the problem begins when someone makes very definite statements like- the evidence would be that Bach did not write any music specifically intended for solo lute - or -You know what I am going to say next–perhaps you should sit down I understand that it was addressed to guitar players, but still we need more evidence before trying to convince someone that A or B is true. Musicology is a tricky bussiness and there is a lot of speculation on lute pieces by Bach. I'd rather use some arguments from available scholarly literature than made ad hoc theories, unless the reason for this was to stir a discussion. jl Wiadomoœæ napisana przez t...@heartistrymusic.com w dniu 26 kwi 2012, o godz. 20:02: ... It's obviously a bit of popular-press fluff, not even quite "gray literature," but that stuff tends to reach much more of the general public than scholarly literature ever will. > Eugene I agree. The interesting thing to me on this topic is the response it is getting from the Lute list. Yes, you lutenists who have been at it for 20 - 30 years already know this, but I think that in all likelihood, the rest of the music world does not. An article like this on a "guitar site" (nose upturned?) will probably reach a lot more people, and therefore could be a good thing, bringing more attention to lutes from other musical disciplines. Something I have noticed in reading liner notes to CDs / LPs is that, for example, keyboard afficianodos sometimes seem to be unaware that a Bach piece was also arranged by the man himself for other instruments. The same is true for violin, etc. "Any press is good press - even bad press." I personally think that the more people write about these things, the better. And if you have pertinent info that this writer doesn't seem to have, maybe they would like to know about it? Knowledge, especially accurate knowledge, is best shared with the world. And anything done to place the word Lute in front of a wider audience is going to be good for lutes and lutenists. I'll look forward to future responses. Tom However, there is at least a fair amount of reference to primary source material (the manuscripts themselves). It's obviously a bit of popular-press fluff, not even quite "gray literature," but that stuff tends to reach much more of the general public than scholarly literature ever will. Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Stephan Olbertz Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2012 4:35 AM Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Re: Bach´s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted Am 25.04.2012, 22:27 Uhr, schrieb Daniel Winheld : The article was aimed at the guitar crowd, And that's probably why the article is a bit superficial. ;-) A real contribution would need to be in scholarly style. No references here, no mentioning of newer literature (e.g. by Negwer, Dierksen, Hofmann, Ledbetter), lots of statements without evidence. Regards Stephan still clinging to illusions of lute. It's tough letting go. But he put it all together very nicely, I thought. On Apr 25,
[LUTE] Selling a guitar
A friend of mine is trying to sell a 4-course renaissance guitar. I suggested he try Wayne's site at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute/forsale.html . Are there any other websites - lute, guitar, ukulele - where instruments can be advertised for sale? Any help much appreciated. Stewart McCoy -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute/forsale.html To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Re: Bach’s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted
Eugene, Well, saying that "the evidence would be that Bach did not write any music specifically intended for solo lute" sounds to me (do correct me if I'm wrong) a little bit like a definite statement or a final argument, doesn't it? There is nothing wrong in having doubts and expressing them publicly, but making new theories is another matter. I greatly recommend David Ledbetters book "Unaccompanied Bach" (as mentioned) which deals with all available data concerning this subject in detail. There are many question marks and unfortunately no simple answers so far, I am afraid. However it can be agreed that there are no so called Bach lute suites if we understand them the same way that some guitarists used to believe in past, but then the question is what guitarist and how can we judge someones knowledge. It's much better to present bare facts letting people decide what they can make of it, IMHO. My 2 cents Best regards Jaroslaw Wiadomość napisana przez Braig, Eugene w dniu 26 kwi 2012, o godz. 22:01: > I wholeheartedly agree, jl. Fortunately, I don't believe the little article > discussed here did make any such definitive statements. I think it did a > fair job of presenting evidence with relative objectivity. > > Eugene > > From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] on behalf of > Jarosław Lipski [jaroslawlip...@wp.pl] > Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2012 3:06 PM > To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bach’s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted > > Discussion is always a good thing, the problem begins when someone makes very > definite statements like- the evidence would be that Bach did not write any > music specifically intended for solo lute > - or -You know what I am going to say next–perhaps you should sit down > I understand that it was addressed to guitar players, but still we need more > evidence before trying to convince someone that A or B is true. Musicology is > a tricky bussiness and there is a lot of speculation on lute pieces by Bach. > I'd rather use some arguments from available scholarly literature than made > ad hoc theories, unless the reason for this was to stir a discussion. > > jl > > > Wiadomoœæ napisana przez t...@heartistrymusic.com w dniu 26 kwi 2012, o godz. > 20:02: > >>> ... It's obviously a bit of >>> popular-press fluff, not even quite "gray literature," but that stuff >>> tends to reach much more of the general public than scholarly >>> literature ever will. > Eugene >> I agree. >> The interesting thing to me on this topic is the response it is getting >> from the Lute list. Yes, you lutenists who have been at it for 20 - 30 >> years already know this, but I think that in all likelihood, the rest of the >> music world does not. An article like this on a "guitar site" (nose >> upturned?) >> will probably reach a lot more people, and therefore could be a good thing, >> bringing more attention to lutes from other musical disciplines. Something >> I have noticed in reading liner notes to CDs / LPs is that, for example, >> keyboard afficianodos sometimes seem to be unaware that a Bach piece >> was also arranged by the man himself for other instruments. The same is >> true for violin, etc. >> "Any press is good press - even bad press." I personally think that the more >> people write about these things, the better. And if you have pertinent info >> that >> this writer doesn't seem to have, maybe they would like to know about it? >> Knowledge, especially accurate knowledge, is best shared with the world. >> And anything done to place the word Lute in front of a wider audience is >> going >> to be good for lutes and lutenists. >> I'll look forward to future responses. >> Tom >>> However, there is at least a fair amount of reference to primary >>> source material (the manuscripts themselves). It's obviously a bit of >>> popular-press fluff, not even quite "gray literature," but that stuff >>> tends to reach much more of the general public than scholarly >>> literature ever will. >>> >>> Eugene >>> >>> -Original Message- >>> From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On >>> Behalf Of Stephan Olbertz Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2012 4:35 AM Cc: >>> lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Re: Bach´s Lute >>> Suites: This Myth is Busted >>> >>> Am 25.04.2012, 22:27 Uhr, schrieb Daniel Winheld : >>> The article was aimed at the guitar crowd, >>> >>> And that's probably why the article is a bit superficial. ;-) A real >>> contribution would need to be in scholarly style. No references here, >>> no mentioning of newer literature (e.g. by Negwer, Dierksen, Hofmann, >>> Ledbetter), lots of statements without evidence. >>> >>> Regards >>> >>> Stephan >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> still clinging to illusions of lute. It's tough letting go. But he put it all together very nicely, I thought. On Apr 25, 201
[LUTE] Re: Autumn Waltz (Howard Skempton 1976)
Short for baritone saxhorn (not saxophone, which is a reed instrument), one of the many brass instruments invented by Adolph Sax. It's similar to a euphonium (the bore is a little different) and has the same range as a Bb trombone. In the US (at least), they are used almost exclusively in marching or concert bands (which is where I played one, lo these many years). Guy -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Stuart Walsh Sent: Friday, April 27, 2012 2:51 PM To: Lute Net Subject: [LUTE] Autumn Waltz (Howard Skempton 1976) This is a tiny piece, about one minute, originally for two baritone horns (whatever they are). It's just simple two-part music and it fits on a lute very well. Howard Skempton is usually classified as an 'experimental' composer but this little piece just uses simple musical phrases and no harm took place to any lutes during the performance of the piece. It's in 3/4 but not obviously a waltz. As it's called Autumn Waltz I took a little video of the lovely Spring weather today. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsnEF0TvN7g Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Robert Ballard, 2nd book - CNRS edition
Dear List, first of all I'd like to thank you all members who got back to me about Robert Lundberg contribution: not only they have been very kind, but confirmed the fact that this list is an invaluable resource for every lutenist and/or lute maniac. For this reason, I hope somebody out there can help me with this: I am looking for the CNRS edition of Robert Ballard SECOND book (there's also a CNRS edition of the first book, but I have the facsimile printed by Fuzeau / Societe Franc,aise de Luth which is really nice to read...). The French title is " Oeuvres de Robert Ballard. Deuxieme livre", CNRS 1964. If somebody has a scanned copy and would be so kind to share it, it would be really of great help. Thank you in advance, Luca To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute crossover - Luthomania
On Apr 29, 2012, at 6:21 PM, Bernd Haegemann wrote: > with the Belgian lute master Philippe Malfeyt on theorbo > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKhH5LGcza4&feature=fvwrel This one is interesting too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DI8sbyY-kvU&feature=related -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: 4060
Arto, Singacademie was in Berlin, and it was instrumental in preservation of JSB's works and reputation, when it was led by C.F.Zelter and Mendelssohn. Its archive was taken to Kiev as war booty, and stored at the conservatory. The archive survived intact, unlike the collection of Lubeck Kunsthalle which was stolen piecemeal by the professors of Kiev Art Academy where it was stored. RT - Original Message - From: To: "Lute net" Sent: Friday, April 27, 2012 5:36 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: 4060 New try. I sent this already yesterday, but it has not appeared. Sorry if this becomes a double: - Very interesting and huge ms.! Thanks all involved! Eagerly waiting also the intro by François-Pierre Goy in the Tree edition to come. Before that proper analysis, it would be very interesting to hear at least something of the history of that ms. -- the 17th century history and also the 20th century history: the role of Kiev -- I can guess the point of history when the ms. was taken there... And what and where was that "Singakademie"? And how can this ms. be so clear? It looks like written/copied later than 17th century? The pen and the writing style looks more like 19th or even 20th century style. Could it have be written by some musicologist, who just copied many original 17th century mss.? Best, Arto On 25/04/12 22:34, Andreas Schlegel wrote: Dear lute netters, That's the famous manuscript of the Singakademie who came back from Kiew in the year 2000. I bought a microfiche and in February I was in Berlin, made the physical description and took photos of the watermarks etc. - and they didn't told me that they will publish the PDF... But anyway: That's a great gift! A big thank you to the library and to Rainer who shared the link! François-Pierre Goy and Tim Crawford are working on this very important source. François-Pierre Goy wrote an article and a whole inventory - but I don't know where it will be published. I will ask him when he's back from his holiday. Enjoy the source! Andreas Am 25.04.2012 um 21:07 schrieb Rainer: Dear lute netters, I have no idea if this is new: MS 4060 (750 pages) is on-line. See http://resolver.staatsbibliothek-berlin.de/SBB78A3 Rainer adS To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] RE: [LUTE] Re: Bach’s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted
I wholeheartedly agree, jl. Fortunately, I don't believe the little article discussed here did make any such definitive statements. I think it did a fair job of presenting evidence with relative objectivity. Eugene From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] on behalf of Jarosław Lipski [jaroslawlip...@wp.pl] Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2012 3:06 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bach’s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted Discussion is always a good thing, the problem begins when someone makes very definite statements like- the evidence would be that Bach did not write any music specifically intended for solo lute - or -You know what I am going to say next–perhaps you should sit down I understand that it was addressed to guitar players, but still we need more evidence before trying to convince someone that A or B is true. Musicology is a tricky bussiness and there is a lot of speculation on lute pieces by Bach. I'd rather use some arguments from available scholarly literature than made ad hoc theories, unless the reason for this was to stir a discussion. jl Wiadomoœæ napisana przez t...@heartistrymusic.com w dniu 26 kwi 2012, o godz. 20:02: >> ... It's obviously a bit of >> popular-press fluff, not even quite "gray literature," but that stuff >> tends to reach much more of the general public than scholarly >> literature ever will. > Eugene > I agree. > The interesting thing to me on this topic is the response it is getting > from the Lute list. Yes, you lutenists who have been at it for 20 - 30 > years already know this, but I think that in all likelihood, the rest of the > music world does not. An article like this on a "guitar site" (nose > upturned?) > will probably reach a lot more people, and therefore could be a good thing, > bringing more attention to lutes from other musical disciplines. Something > I have noticed in reading liner notes to CDs / LPs is that, for example, > keyboard afficianodos sometimes seem to be unaware that a Bach piece > was also arranged by the man himself for other instruments. The same is > true for violin, etc. > "Any press is good press - even bad press." I personally think that the more > people write about these things, the better. And if you have pertinent info > that > this writer doesn't seem to have, maybe they would like to know about it? > Knowledge, especially accurate knowledge, is best shared with the world. > And anything done to place the word Lute in front of a wider audience is going > to be good for lutes and lutenists. > I'll look forward to future responses. > Tom >> However, there is at least a fair amount of reference to primary >> source material (the manuscripts themselves). It's obviously a bit of >> popular-press fluff, not even quite "gray literature," but that stuff >> tends to reach much more of the general public than scholarly >> literature ever will. >> >> Eugene >> >> -Original Message- >> From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On >> Behalf Of Stephan Olbertz Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2012 4:35 AM Cc: >> lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Re: Bach´s Lute >> Suites: This Myth is Busted >> >> Am 25.04.2012, 22:27 Uhr, schrieb Daniel Winheld : >> >>> The article was aimed at the guitar crowd, >> >> And that's probably why the article is a bit superficial. ;-) A real >> contribution would need to be in scholarly style. No references here, >> no mentioning of newer literature (e.g. by Negwer, Dierksen, Hofmann, >> Ledbetter), lots of statements without evidence. >> >> Regards >> >> Stephan >> >> >> >> >> >> still clinging to illusions >>> of lute. It's tough letting go. >>> But he put it all together very nicely, I thought. >>> >>> On Apr 25, 2012, at 11:18 AM, Braig, Eugene wrote: >>> While I enjoyed this read, I didn't see anything particularly new here. For example, Hopkinson Smith specifically named all the sources of Bach's original "lute" music in the liner notes he drafted for his recording of this music around 30 years ago. He also stated their evident non-lute provenance. I have heard Paul O'Dette unequivocally state on more than one occasion something like "Sorry, Bach did not write for the lute." Etc. I suspect that anybody who is still clinging to the notion that Bach knowingly composed lute music after having had some exposure to some reference of the source material either really, really wants to believe so to somehow legitimize the lute or is a fan of modern classical guitar who wants to somehow legitimize the perceived ancestor of his/her own instrument. Best, Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of t...@heartistrymusic.com Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2012 11:58 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Luca
[LUTE] Re: 4060
Very interesting and huge ms.! Thanks all involved! Eagerly waiting also the intro by François-Pierre Goy in the Tree edition to come. Before that proper analysis, it would be very interesting to hear at least something of the history of that ms. -- the 17th century history and also the 20th century history: the role of Kiev -- I can guess the point of history when the ms. was taken there... And what and where was that "Singakademie"? And how can this ms. be so clear? It looks like written/copied later than 17th century? The pen and the writing style looks more like 19th or even 20th century style. Could it have be written by some musicologist, who just copied many original 17th century mss.? Best, Arto On 25/04/12 22:34, Andreas Schlegel wrote: Dear lute netters, That's the famous manuscript of the Singakademie who came back from Kiew in the year 2000. I bought a microfiche and in February I was in Berlin, made the physical description and took photos of the watermarks etc. - and they didn't told me that they will publish the PDF... But anyway: That's a great gift! A big thank you to the library and to Rainer who shared the link! François-Pierre Goy and Tim Crawford are working on this very important source. François-Pierre Goy wrote an article and a whole inventory - but I don't know where it will be published. I will ask him when he's back from his holiday. Enjoy the source! Andreas Am 25.04.2012 um 21:07 schrieb Rainer: Dear lute netters, I have no idea if this is new: MS 4060 (750 pages) is on-line. See http://resolver.staatsbibliothek-berlin.de/SBB78A3 Rainer adS To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Bach’s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted
Exactly. BTW, a recent (2009) must-read on the topic is David Ledbetters "Unaccompanied Bach" (Yale University Press), which includes studies on the violin, cello and lute/Lautenwerk works. Regards Stephan Am 26.04.2012, 21:06 Uhr, schrieb Jarosław Lipski : Discussion is always a good thing, the problem begins when someone makes very definite statements like- the evidence would be that Bach did not write any music specifically intended for solo lute - or -You know what I am going to say next–perhaps you should sit down I understand that it was addressed to guitar players, but still we need more evidence before trying to convince someone that A or B is true. Musicology is a tricky bussiness and there is a lot of speculation on lute pieces by Bach. I'd rather use some arguments from available scholarly literature than made ad hoc theories, unless the reason for this was to stir a discussion. jl Wiadomoœæ napisana przez t...@heartistrymusic.com w dniu 26 kwi 2012, o godz. 20:02: ... It's obviously a bit of popular-press fluff, not even quite "gray literature," but that stuff tends to reach much more of the general public than scholarly literature ever will. > Eugene I agree. The interesting thing to me on this topic is the response it is getting from the Lute list. Yes, you lutenists who have been at it for 20 - 30 years already know this, but I think that in all likelihood, the rest of the music world does not. An article like this on a "guitar site" (nose upturned?) will probably reach a lot more people, and therefore could be a good thing, bringing more attention to lutes from other musical disciplines. Something I have noticed in reading liner notes to CDs / LPs is that, for example, keyboard afficianodos sometimes seem to be unaware that a Bach piece was also arranged by the man himself for other instruments. The same is true for violin, etc. "Any press is good press - even bad press." I personally think that the more people write about these things, the better. And if you have pertinent info that this writer doesn't seem to have, maybe they would like to know about it? Knowledge, especially accurate knowledge, is best shared with the world. And anything done to place the word Lute in front of a wider audience is going to be good for lutes and lutenists. I'll look forward to future responses. Tom However, there is at least a fair amount of reference to primary source material (the manuscripts themselves). It's obviously a bit of popular-press fluff, not even quite "gray literature," but that stuff tends to reach much more of the general public than scholarly literature ever will. Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Stephan Olbertz Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2012 4:35 AM Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Re: Bach´s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted Am 25.04.2012, 22:27 Uhr, schrieb Daniel Winheld : The article was aimed at the guitar crowd, And that's probably why the article is a bit superficial. ;-) A real contribution would need to be in scholarly style. No references here, no mentioning of newer literature (e.g. by Negwer, Dierksen, Hofmann, Ledbetter), lots of statements without evidence. Regards Stephan still clinging to illusions of lute. It's tough letting go. But he put it all together very nicely, I thought. On Apr 25, 2012, at 11:18 AM, Braig, Eugene wrote: While I enjoyed this read, I didn't see anything particularly new here. For example, Hopkinson Smith specifically named all the sources of Bach's original "lute" music in the liner notes he drafted for his recording of this music around 30 years ago. He also stated their evident non-lute provenance. I have heard Paul O'Dette unequivocally state on more than one occasion something like "Sorry, Bach did not write for the lute." Etc. I suspect that anybody who is still clinging to the notion that Bach knowingly composed lute music after having had some exposure to some reference of the source material either really, really wants to believe so to somehow legitimize the lute or is a fan of modern classical guitar who wants to somehow legitimize the perceived ancestor of his/her own instrument. Best, Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of t...@heartistrymusic.com Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2012 11:58 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Luca Manassero Subject: [LUTE] [LUTE] Bach´s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted A very interesting article. I can't wait to see the responses from the rest of the list! I am reminded that Walther Gerwig did an arrangement of Bach's Cello Suite No.1 in G major, BWV1007. Very nice and beautifully played - in Renaissance tuning! Tom -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Erst
[LUTE] Re: Lundberg's contribution to lutemaking in the age of Galileo
Lots of great options for sharing files now: 1) Join lutegroup.ning.com and upload in the tablature forum 2) Join Dropbox and put the file in your "public" folder: http://db.tt/idH3MHl (use this link and get an extra 0.5 GB storage) 3) Join Google Drive (just unveiled this week so no guarantee on performance) Danny On Apr 29, 2012, at 6:51 AM, Franz Mechsner wrote: > Hi All, > > Many apologies - I tried in vein to send the Lundberg file to those > interested, but it did not work. I intended to have another try, but > thanks David for your offer. I'll send you the list of people who asked > me for the file. > > Best > Franz > > __ > > From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of David van Ooijen > Sent: Sat 28.04.2012 22:24 > To: lutelist Net > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lundberg's contribution to lutemaking in the age of > Galileo > > All, > Franz already made a version available (Danke Franz, and I really > enjoyed our chat, it gave me so much food for thought), but maybe not > quite mailable. I made a 2.5Mb scan, available to those who want to > see what's waiting for them after their planned trek to the library or > bookshop. > Mail me off-list for a digital copy. > David > -- > *** > David van Ooijen > davidvanooi...@gmail.com > www.davidvanooijen.nl > *** > To get on or off this list see list information at > [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > -- > > References > > 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
[LUTE] Re: 4060
It was a reply to David's post (below). Notice that he mentions sharing costs which is definately reasonable. Photocopying is a work which has to be paid, however I have a feeling that sooner or later probably most of interesting manuscripts will be digitalised. We only discuss how it could be done. jl Wiadomo¶æ napisana przez Alan Hoyle w dniu 26 kwi 2012, o godz. 22:17: > I do agree in principle with such sentiments, but, as Donna Stewart (a > librarian as well as a supreme interpreter of renaissance music for voice) > explained on the net a few months ago, the photographing (not to mention the > year-on-year conserving of these manuscripts, along with other aspects of > their management) costs an increasingly large amount of money - and at a time > when economic/fiscal pressures of public funds seem to be tightening focus on > what will bring a 'useful' financial return. > > Since, as lutenists, we have perversely chosen a non-commercial passion to > pursue, we should not expect the world to leap in and pander to it. We are > hugely fortunate already with the amount of tablature available for free via > Fronimo, Django & other sources. it ill behoves us to complain if a library > requires a contribution to its running costs to have access to its > manuscripts. Of course, if they find they can give it for free - so much the > better! > > > > > > > 2012/4/26 Jaros³aw Lipski > Hear, hear! Absolutely, manuscripts should be in the public domain and easily > available (at least in future). > > jl > > > Wiadomo¶æ napisana przez David Tayler w dniu 26 kwi 2012, o godz. 02:38: > > > Since I'm a hippie and believe all music should be free, some good must > > come from this. > > However, since I run a group and believe people should be paid, why > > don't you set up a PayPal donation event and I will be happy to chip > > in. And I imagine others would as well. > > I have often paid for mss to be scanned at libraries, knowing full well > > that others would benefit from these mss being "bumped" to the head of > > the inevitable line, to quote Dr. Blow. > > All mss will be scanned, of course. Only when? I just wish it had all > > been sooner before I ruined my eyes in the microfilm booth. > > However, I think it would be nice to share the cost. > > dt > > > > -- > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > > > --
[LUTE] Re: 4060
New try. I sent this already yesterday, but it has not appeared. Sorry if this becomes a double: - Very interesting and huge ms.! Thanks all involved! Eagerly waiting also the intro by François-Pierre Goy in the Tree edition to come. Before that proper analysis, it would be very interesting to hear at least something of the history of that ms. -- the 17th century history and also the 20th century history: the role of Kiev -- I can guess the point of history when the ms. was taken there... And what and where was that "Singakademie"? And how can this ms. be so clear? It looks like written/copied later than 17th century? The pen and the writing style looks more like 19th or even 20th century style. Could it have be written by some musicologist, who just copied many original 17th century mss.? Best, Arto On 25/04/12 22:34, Andreas Schlegel wrote: Dear lute netters, That's the famous manuscript of the Singakademie who came back from Kiew in the year 2000. I bought a microfiche and in February I was in Berlin, made the physical description and took photos of the watermarks etc. - and they didn't told me that they will publish the PDF... But anyway: That's a great gift! A big thank you to the library and to Rainer who shared the link! François-Pierre Goy and Tim Crawford are working on this very important source. François-Pierre Goy wrote an article and a whole inventory - but I don't know where it will be published. I will ask him when he's back from his holiday. Enjoy the source! Andreas Am 25.04.2012 um 21:07 schrieb Rainer: Dear lute netters, I have no idea if this is new: MS 4060 (750 pages) is on-line. See http://resolver.staatsbibliothek-berlin.de/SBB78A3 Rainer adS To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bach¹s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted
Greetings Eugene I agree with about all you've said - I would add some what I think are cogent factoids: Take the fifth 'cello suite. The music requires a scordatura, it has not survived in Bach's hand, and it was lost for hundreds of years. People have no trouble calling it a "'cello suite." The same music, in Bach's hand, in continuous "un-lostness," and dedicated to a contemporanious lutenist is deemed suspicious.(?) Add to this that in Bach's time it would have been way more usual to write a suite for lute than for 'cello - and that the lute suite is better music. IMHO It leaves me scratching my head. Best Regards, Joseph From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Braig, Eugene [brai...@osu.edu] Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2012 11:07 AM To: lute Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bach¹s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted Greetings Prof. Mayes, Yeah, I should not have used the "Bach's own hand" line; that's not really what I was getting at. Still, Ana Magdalina is a bit of a different case than Falckenhagen, e.g., just because she was obviously rather close to ol' Johann and known as one of her husband's regular copyists. I don't think anybody is arguing that Bach's "lute" works aren't Bach's, only that there is very little to suggest that he himself ever expected that music to be performed by actual lutenists with actual lutes in lap. In many cases-e.g., BWV 1000-there are examples with good Bachy provenance obviously intended for other instruments; this particular piece is also a good example of one to come to us as "lute" via an arrangement by a lutenist acquaintance of Bach's. Again, I don't think there's anything wrong with playing any/all of the alleged lute works on lutes or even in referring to them as "Bach's lute music." That is how we've all come to know this stuff. ...And we all know Bach himself was an inveterate recycler of his own (and even others': e.g., the solo keyboard concerti) music. There's also nothing wrong with an objective recognition of what is known of the source material for Bach's lute works, whatever conclusion anybody would like to draw from it. Best, Eugene -Original Message- From: Mayes, Joseph [mailto:ma...@rowan.edu] Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2012 7:49 AM To: Braig, Eugene; lute Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Bach¹s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted Hi Eugene The "Bach's own hand" argument is specious - we don't have the 'cello suites in Bach's hand either and even though they were in Ana Magdalina's hand and at least one for another instrument, we still call them "Bach's 'Cello Suites." Joseph Mayes On 4/25/12 10:23 PM, "Braig, Eugene" wrote: > I don't know how relevant the concept of urtext is in this case. > Urtext or not, there is still no evidence to tie Bach's alleged lute > suites to Bach in his hand and plenty of evidence that these are > arrangements or speculation at best. There's nothing wrong with > playing that music on the lute (especially because there is evidence > that some folks from around that time did like to play some of these > pieces on lute: e.g., Weyrauch and Falckenhagen), but I don't think > there's anything wrong with acknowledging what info there is of its > provenance either. You're right; it's all speculation. > > I think you have the concept of Bach's rental stable in reverse. > Titmuss and others aren't arguing for Bach as renter/lessee but as > lessor/owner, leasing his own stable out to paying customers. To > quote the originally linked article, "There is evidence that he ran an > instrument rental business." If so, that sounds like a man who would > own a fair number of popular instruments himself and not necessarily be > proficient with every one that he did own. > > Best, > Eugene > > > From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] on behalf > of David Tayler [vidan...@sbcglobal.net] > Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2012 9:14 PM > To: lute > Subject: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] [LUTE] [LUTE] Bach¹s Lute > Suites: This Myth is Busted > >For me the point is that Carolyn Abbate fimly trounced the notion of an >urtext thirty years ago :) >I just don't see any point in revisiting it. It turns out that >composition works like quantum mechanics, the closer you look, the >fuzzier it gets. >So all this linear provenance, composers intent, etc, that went out the >window years ago. I mean, no one is saying don't speculate, but it is >just speculation. >As far as Bach renting instruments, that proves one of two things. >First, that he probaly did not rent them, because they would not have >been in his household inventory at the time of his death, and, second, >in the extremely unlikely event that he rented them, he must have >wanted them. Here's my 2 euro cents. The gamba sonatas, some of the >greatest music ever written for ga
[LUTE] Re: Bach¹s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted
..And I have nothing more to add other than I also agree with all you've said, Joseph. Pluckers are good folk. Cheers! Eugene -Original Message- From: Mayes, Joseph [mailto:ma...@rowan.edu] Sent: Friday, April 27, 2012 10:09 AM To: Braig, Eugene; lute Subject: RE: [LUTE] Re: Bach¹s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted Greetings Eugene I agree with about all you've said - I would add some what I think are cogent factoids: Take the fifth 'cello suite. The music requires a scordatura, it has not survived in Bach's hand, and it was lost for hundreds of years. People have no trouble calling it a "'cello suite." The same music, in Bach's hand, in continuous "un-lostness," and dedicated to a contemporanious lutenist is deemed suspicious.(?) Add to this that in Bach's time it would have been way more usual to write a suite for lute than for 'cello - and that the lute suite is better music. IMHO It leaves me scratching my head. Best Regards, Joseph From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Braig, Eugene [brai...@osu.edu] Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2012 11:07 AM To: lute Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bach¹s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted Greetings Prof. Mayes, Yeah, I should not have used the "Bach's own hand" line; that's not really what I was getting at. Still, Ana Magdalina is a bit of a different case than Falckenhagen, e.g., just because she was obviously rather close to ol' Johann and known as one of her husband's regular copyists. I don't think anybody is arguing that Bach's "lute" works aren't Bach's, only that there is very little to suggest that he himself ever expected that music to be performed by actual lutenists with actual lutes in lap. In many cases-e.g., BWV 1000-there are examples with good Bachy provenance obviously intended for other instruments; this particular piece is also a good example of one to come to us as "lute" via an arrangement by a lutenist acquaintance of Bach's. Again, I don't think there's anything wrong with playing any/all of the alleged lute works on lutes or even in referring to them as "Bach's lute music." That is how we've all come to know this stuff. ...And we all know Bach himself was an inveterate recycler of his own (and even others': e.g., the solo keyboard concerti) music. There's also nothing wrong with an objective recognition of what is known of the source material for Bach's lute works, whatever conclusion anybody would like to draw from it. Best, Eugene -Original Message- From: Mayes, Joseph [mailto:ma...@rowan.edu] Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2012 7:49 AM To: Braig, Eugene; lute Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Bach¹s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted Hi Eugene The "Bach's own hand" argument is specious - we don't have the 'cello suites in Bach's hand either and even though they were in Ana Magdalina's hand and at least one for another instrument, we still call them "Bach's 'Cello Suites." Joseph Mayes On 4/25/12 10:23 PM, "Braig, Eugene" wrote: > I don't know how relevant the concept of urtext is in this case. > Urtext or not, there is still no evidence to tie Bach's alleged lute > suites to Bach in his hand and plenty of evidence that these are > arrangements or speculation at best. There's nothing wrong with > playing that music on the lute (especially because there is evidence > that some folks from around that time did like to play some of these > pieces on lute: e.g., Weyrauch and Falckenhagen), but I don't think > there's anything wrong with acknowledging what info there is of its > provenance either. You're right; it's all speculation. > > I think you have the concept of Bach's rental stable in reverse. > Titmuss and others aren't arguing for Bach as renter/lessee but as > lessor/owner, leasing his own stable out to paying customers. To > quote the originally linked article, "There is evidence that he ran an > instrument rental business." If so, that sounds like a man who would > own a fair number of popular instruments himself and not necessarily be > proficient with every one that he did own. > > Best, > Eugene > > > From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] on behalf > of David Tayler [vidan...@sbcglobal.net] > Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2012 9:14 PM > To: lute > Subject: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] [LUTE] [LUTE] Bach¹s Lute > Suites: This Myth is Busted > >For me the point is that Carolyn Abbate fimly trounced the notion of an >urtext thirty years ago :) >I just don't see any point in revisiting it. It turns out that >composition works like quantum mechanics, the closer you look, the >fuzzier it gets. >So all this linear provenance, composers intent, etc, that went out the >window years ago. I mean, no one is saying don't speculate, but it is >just speculation. >As far as Bach renting instruments, that proves one of two
[LUTE] Re: What makes a good lute?
Thank you, David, for your detailed suggestions regarding string spacing, and also for your very fine HD video of the Milan piece. As you say, ten minutes with a good teacher could resolve many technique issues for many of us. But for various reasons, many of us don't have ready access to a good teacher. Your methodical research and clear explanations will be very helpful to me, and - I'm sure - many others. Ned On Apr 25, 2012, at 9:41 PM, David Tayler wrote: > If you follow the link and use HD plus the pause button in full screen > you can see close ups of striking two strings. > However, it is better to be shown how to do it by a real person :) > You can see in the video that one string (the "near" string) goes under > the other one, and both strings are plucked with a slight curved > stroke. Also you can see that my fingers are well below the strings. > Now I'm not saying that is the right way to do it, and, indeed, I use > four or five hand positions, thumb over, thumb centre, etc, etc. > Each has its own challenges, > It is just one way to do it. > And, really, I could not do it without the right spacing. It would be > nearly impossible. > So for me, what makes a good lute: setup. I can play an average or > even below average lute and get a pretty good sound with the right > spacing. > I this case, I use "thumb in: egg" The other variant is "thumb in: > squid" where the fingers are more extended. > That is, the thumb is inside the hand, mostly, and the hand is shaped > as if it could hold an egg. > In fact, I could lay one! > Most importantly, the wrist is very loose. The wrist is a biggie as far > as tone goes. > The video was made with a follow focus tracking so you can see > everything mostly in focus. > [1]http://youtu.be/soTjO9WlsAs?hd=1&t=2m16s > __ > > From: William Samson > To: David Tayler > Cc: Lute List > Sent: Wed, April 25, 2012 11:32:00 AM > Subject: [LUTE] Re: What makes a good lute? > I haven't come across that formula David. Can you please point me to > a > source for the recipe? It could save a lot of time and money! > Thanks, > Bill > From: David Tayler <[2]vidan...@sbcglobal.net> > To: William Samson <[3]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk> > Sent: Wednesday, 25 April 2012, 18:57 > Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: What makes a good lute? > Simple geometry. > It's all been worked out, unlike forty years ago when we worked it > out. > No different from buying clothes. > dt > At 11:55 PM 4/9/2012, you wrote: > A luthier would need a formula relating hand dimensions (hand span, > fistmele and so on) in order to build a lute that's exactly the > right size for a particular player. Without such a formula, all > the > luthier gets is a headache when asked to build a lute that's the > right size for a particular player. > If it's down to the player to decide what spacings they need, how > will they determine that without having a selection of instruments > to try first? Not as easy as in the time of Laux Maler as David > Van > Edwards so amusingly pointed out! > I don't see how making exact copies of original instruments > actually > helps here - There are variations in these too - Compare, for > example the well-known 7c Hieber with the 7c Venere of about the > same size (58/59cm?). The Hieber has a wide string spacing at the > nut end, and the Venere is almost impossibly narrow here for most > players I know. Otherwise, there's not a lot of difference in > dimensions - bridge spacing, scale, body dimensions . . . > I sympathise with your point of view, but can't see how these > objectives can be achieved in practice without buying, trying and > then rejecting a goodish number of instruments. > Bill > From: David Tayler <[4]vidan...@sbcglobal.net> > To: lute <[5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > Sent: Monday, 9 April 2012, 22:27 > Subject: [LUTE] Re: What makes a good lute? > Ninety percent of the lutes I see are set up wrong and are also > the > wrong size for the person playing. I doubt that this will change > anytime soon: once someone buys the wrong size instrument, they > either > keep it or trade it in for another one that is the wrong size. > So I would rate size and setup as the number one issue, based on > my > experience that the player will have to go through a very long > retraining period > after learning on a lute that is the wrong size. Why pedal > backwards? > Of the setup issues, the number one issue is the span and > spacing. > Without the right span and spacing, which reconciles two numbers, > the > size of the hand (and fingers) an
[LUTE] Autumn Waltz (Howard Skempton 1976)
This is a tiny piece, about one minute, originally for two baritone horns (whatever they are). It's just simple two-part music and it fits on a lute very well. Howard Skempton is usually classified as an 'experimental' composer but this little piece just uses simple musical phrases and no harm took place to any lutes during the performance of the piece. It's in 3/4 but not obviously a waltz. As it's called Autumn Waltz I took a little video of the lovely Spring weather today. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsnEF0TvN7g Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: 4060
Found a unique sarabande and double by Dubut that was so charming, I just had to record it: http://youtu.be/rwSgtAX-g2M Danny On Apr 25, 2012, at 3:07 PM, Rainer wrote: > Dear lute netters, > > I have no idea if this is new: > > MS 4060 (750 pages) is on-line. > > See > > http://resolver.staatsbibliothek-berlin.de/SBB78A3 > > Rainer adS > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Saturday morning quotes
We have posted our Saturday morning quotes, this week from Count Bardi. [1]http://wp.me/p15OyV-nF Ron & Donna -- References 1. http://wp.me/p15OyV-nF To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Saturday morning quotes
We have posted our Saturday morning quotes, this week from Count Bardi. [1]http://wp.me/p15OyV-nF Ron & Donna -- References 1. http://wp.me/p15OyV-nF To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Zamboni re-tubed...
Dear lutenists, just in case our List will come alive again: I re-recorded some Zamboni when warming up my 10-course "Vieil Accord" playing - a tiny gig is coming. My tube explanation of the Preludio, Sarabanda Largo and Gavotta Allegro is: These pieces of the Sonata 9 by Giovanni Zamboni Romano come from his printed book "Sonate d'intavolatura di Leuto, Opera Prima" (Lucca 1718). The book is an example of a very late use of the old renaissance tuning, the "Vieil Accord". The instrument is 10-course renaissance lute made by Stephen Barber 1986. If interested, the links: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LC4YX24Dyps&feature=youtu.be http://vimeo.com/41204447 All the best, and I hope our List will be back some day! Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lundberg's contribution to lutemaking in the age of Galileo
Many thanks to Franz and David. I'm in waiting list. Eugene 2012/4/29 Franz Mechsner <[1]franz.mechs...@northumbria.ac.uk> Hi All, Many apologies - I tried in vein to send the Lundberg file to those interested, but it did not work. I intended to have another try, but thanks David for your offer. I'll send you the list of people who asked me for the file. Best Franz __ From: [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of David van Ooijen Sent: Sat 28.04.2012 22:24 To: lutelist Net Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lundberg's contribution to lutemaking in the age of Galileo All, Franz already made a version available (Danke Franz, and I really enjoyed our chat, it gave me so much food for thought), but maybe not quite mailable. I made a 2.5Mb scan, available to those who want to see what's waiting for them after their planned trek to the library or bookshop. Mail me off-list for a digital copy. David -- *** David van Ooijen [3]davidvanooi...@gmail.com [4]www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at [1][5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:franz.mechs...@northumbria.ac.uk 2. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 4. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lundberg's contribution to lutemaking in the age of Galileo
Hi All, Many apologies - I tried in vein to send the Lundberg file to those interested, but it did not work. I intended to have another try, but thanks David for your offer. I'll send you the list of people who asked me for the file. Best Franz __ From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of David van Ooijen Sent: Sat 28.04.2012 22:24 To: lutelist Net Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lundberg's contribution to lutemaking in the age of Galileo All, Franz already made a version available (Danke Franz, and I really enjoyed our chat, it gave me so much food for thought), but maybe not quite mailable. I made a 2.5Mb scan, available to those who want to see what's waiting for them after their planned trek to the library or bookshop. Mail me off-list for a digital copy. David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Agenda 2nd try
Original-Nachricht
Betreff: Agenda Belgium
Datum: Sun, 29 Apr 2012 11:00:16 +0200
Von: Bernd Haegemann [1]
Kopie (CC): [2]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
I have added 9 items to our agenda for may:
[3]http://www.lute-academy.be/xlagenda325-en/
best regards
Bernd
--
References
1. mailto:b...@symbol4.de
2. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
3. http://www.lute-academy.be/xlagenda325-en/
To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Ballard & Vallet
Mignarda Editions is pleased to announce availability of Angelique: Selected Lute Solos by Robert Ballard & Nicolas Vallet, a new performing edition of selected lute solos by Robert Ballard and Nicolas Vallet. The entirely new collection consists of some of the best music by both composers from diverse sources arranged by tonality for ease of performance. The music is for 10-course lute in renaissance tuning but all pieces can be played on an 8-course lute with minor adaptation of bass notes. Set in modern lute tablature with a period appearance, the book includes several pieces from Vallet's Regia Pietas (1620) that have not before appeared in modern edition. This new performing edition includes sixty-five pieces (less than 62 cents per piece), 70 pages of music, plus an introduction, performance notes and background information. [1]http://editions.mignarda.com/ -- References 1. http://editions.mignarda.com/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Saturday morning quotes
We posted this yesterday but something was amiss with the transmission. __ From: praelu...@hotmail.com To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Saturday morning quotes Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2012 15:02:25 + We have posted our Saturday morning quotes, this week from Count Bardi. [1]http://wp.me/p15OyV-nF Ron & Donna -- References 1. http://wp.me/p15OyV-nF To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lundberg's contribution to lutemaking in the age of Galileo
All, Franz already made a version available (Danke Franz, and I really enjoyed our chat, it gave me so much food for thought), but maybe not quite mailable. I made a 2.5Mb scan, available to those who want to see what's waiting for them after their planned trek to the library or bookshop. Mail me off-list for a digital copy. David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Lute crossover - Luthomania
with the Belgian lute master Philippe Malfeyt on theorbo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKhH5LGcza4&feature=fvwrel To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: What makes a good lute?
The "planting" is an interesting topic which one could discuss from many angles, however, the essence here is that if you"plant" the finger, you stop it from vibrating. So for legato playing, one must "drive through" or use a combination of "set" and drive through. There are times when some of the fingers of both hands need to be pre-positioned. In the video you can see that I put some of the fingers down into the strings before I use them., trying to stop only one of the two strings. Other times I do not and drive through the strings. Important to mention that this is just what I have figured out for myself after forty+ years of noodling, it isn't the "right" way. There are so many ways to strike the string and that is why the lute is so intriguing and subtle in articulation. However, when this is not the case, as in playing a riff or a simpler textures I recommend driving through the strings, which in turn requires enough space between the pairs, and a very well timed and placed stroke.In driving through the strings, ideally the string makes a new note BEFORE the old note has ended. Technically, this overlapping of notes is called "over legato". The reason that this is important is that the big advantage of double strings is that they can ring through better than single strings, and, interestingly, "thumb out" and "thumb over" ring through best, however, thumb in makes a rounder sound at the expense of legato. It is not always possible to play over legato, but it is an important sound for the lute. Sometimes, those fingers really net to be set in place. I think I have a sneaking suspicion that if I could raise my technique two levels higher, I could drive through every string on every note. I have seen classical guitarists come close to this, of course, it is harder on double strings. Alas, I may not get there! But never say never. dt __ From: William Samson To: David Tayler ; lute Sent: Thu, April 26, 2012 9:46:32 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: What makes a good lute? Thanks David, That's very helpful and a systematic analysis. The approach I've used for most of my lutes is to use the string spacing of an old 9c lute (label Matteus Vogt) as a starting point. It belonged to the Lute Society at one time. I took a rubbing of the strings (as did a few other UK makers) and measuring it just now, it pretty much fits the criteria you specify regarding the spacing at bridge and nut. In fact comparing it with the spacings I now have for many other old lutes, it's pretty much average. The point about hitting the two strings together is, of course, important. I had lessons from Diana Poulton (thumb out, close to bridge) and Michael Schaeffer (thumb inside, close to rose) who were both very particular about that issue and the tone production that resulted. Both said that the finger should be planted on the strings so you could feel them both, before plucking. There were, of course, at that time many very eminient lutenists still using nail, and one told me that he was happy to hit one of the strings and the other would vibrate in sympathy! Your other point about the second course lying under the knuckle of the first lh finger is one I haven't come across before - I'll check my lutes and see how they measure up against that one. As far as the nut is concerned, I agree that unless you have a spacing that works for you, some experimentation is needed. I wonder if you ever came across any of Jacob van der Geest's lutes? He made lots of very narrow (0.5mm?), shallow grooves side by side right across the nut and the player could place the strings to suit him/herself. I'm not sure how successful it was, but his instruments were certainly much revered at one time. Anyway - Plenty to think about there. Thanks again! Bill From: David Tayler <[1]vidan...@sbcglobal.net> To: lute <[2]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Thursday, 26 April 2012, 2:01 Subject: [LUTE] Re: What makes a good lute? Take a small, thin piece of wood 5mm, 5.2mm and so on Place it carefully between the paired strings, right at the bridge, careful not to scratch the soundboard or damage your strings (you can smooth the wood if you use gut. Increase the 2nd and 3rd course width until you can hit two strings clearly and cleanly. Then measure, then adjust. Start with 5.2mm If your nut spacing is too close, you can make a very, very thin mark with a file Then move one string out wider at the nut. You will quickly find the best ratio with no math needed :) Just don't make it too wide, or the total span will be too
