[LUTE] Re: Lutes and social classes historically.
Tobias Hume was not a member of the aristocracy. He was a mercenary soldier and died penniless in a home for the destitute. At one point he petitioned parliament for a pension complaining that he had been reduced to eating weeds to stay alive. I believe the ancestors of the violin family were originally considered folk instruments. Gary - Original Message - From: Bruno Correia bruno.l...@gmail.com To: List LUTELIST lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, July 23, 2012 4:35 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lutes and social classes historically. Dear Herbert, 2012/7/23 Herbert Ward [1]wa...@physics.utexas.edu I have heard that the high cost of the lute and its strings ensured that the lute historically was limited to the upper classes. Perhaps not only but mostly to the upperclass. How can we know this? The high cost of instruments, strings and editions might be a good indicative. The printed sources of lute music are not only very demanding to play but in many cases are also dificult to understand if you didn't have enough music culture (exposure to vocal polyphony). I imagine that the lower class had little time to study such pieces and perhaps not enough taste to appreciate it. Do we know how many loaves of bread cost the same as a set of strings in Renaissance Europe? We don't. Just remember, breads were made at home (cheaper), strings by the string maker (expensive). Are surviving documents or iconography definitive on this issue? I don't think so. They may be misleading as well. Were all the composers either patronized by the upper class or upper class themselves? In fact many were. Kapsperger for instance, inherited a noble title but was't wealthy, he was patronized by Italian academies and did get a job during the Barberini papacy. What instruments did the lower classes have? The guitar!! Best wishes. To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Bruno Correia Pesquisador autonomo da pratica e interpretac,ao historicamente informada no alaude e teorba. Doutor em Praticas Interpretativas pela Universidade Federal do Estado do Rio de Janeiro. -- References 1. mailto:wa...@physics.utexas.edu 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2197 / Virus Database: 2437/5147 - Release Date: 07/22/12
[LUTE] Re: Lutes and social classes historically.
I think class structure was different during the 16th and 17th centuries and indeed changed a lot during this period. There was the nobility, and a small class of artisans - i.e. people with a skill of some sort. The mass of the population were peasants with varying degrees of literacy tied to the land. Overall during the period there was a gradually emerging middle class. Professional musicians for better or worse belonged to the artisan class on the whole. They relied on patronage from the better off who didn't always pay them and often lived from hand to mouth. The aristocracy and some of the clergy would have been wealthy and literate enough to become competant amateur musicians. But it is not something you can gereralize about. Monica - Original Message - From: Gary Digman magg...@sonic.net To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2012 9:20 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lutes and social classes historically. Tobias Hume was not a member of the aristocracy. He was a mercenary soldier and died penniless in a home for the destitute. At one point he petitioned parliament for a pension complaining that he had been reduced to eating weeds to stay alive. I believe the ancestors of the violin family were originally considered folk instruments. Gary - Original Message - From: Bruno Correia bruno.l...@gmail.com To: List LUTELIST lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, July 23, 2012 4:35 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lutes and social classes historically. Dear Herbert, 2012/7/23 Herbert Ward [1]wa...@physics.utexas.edu I have heard that the high cost of the lute and its strings ensured that the lute historically was limited to the upper classes. Perhaps not only but mostly to the upperclass. How can we know this? The high cost of instruments, strings and editions might be a good indicative. The printed sources of lute music are not only very demanding to play but in many cases are also dificult to understand if you didn't have enough music culture (exposure to vocal polyphony). I imagine that the lower class had little time to study such pieces and perhaps not enough taste to appreciate it. Do we know how many loaves of bread cost the same as a set of strings in Renaissance Europe? We don't. Just remember, breads were made at home (cheaper), strings by the string maker (expensive). Are surviving documents or iconography definitive on this issue? I don't think so. They may be misleading as well. Were all the composers either patronized by the upper class or upper class themselves? In fact many were. Kapsperger for instance, inherited a noble title but was't wealthy, he was patronized by Italian academies and did get a job during the Barberini papacy. What instruments did the lower classes have? The guitar!! Best wishes. To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Bruno Correia Pesquisador autonomo da pratica e interpretac,ao historicamente informada no alaude e teorba. Doutor em Praticas Interpretativas pela Universidade Federal do Estado do Rio de Janeiro. -- References 1. mailto:wa...@physics.utexas.edu 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2197 / Virus Database: 2437/5147 - Release Date: 07/22/12
[LUTE] Re: Lute Ensemble
On 07/23/2012 05:04 PM, Anton Höger wrote: Ok, I wrote that IMSLP always check the uploads and need at least one day. Because I often make a transcription for guitar too, it seems that IMSLP cannot handle with the same file name. But sorry if you feel that my more hundreds of Intavolations for 2-4 lutes in any tunings are to much, anton, I didn't write that I don't like your intavolations or guitar arrangements. Please don't be so quickly offended by what I wrote and please do continue your work. I only asked what the purpose is of sending emails for every addition or minor change to a piece, while there are so many better alternatives for getting the attention of your efforts like a webpage with a latest additions page, a rss xml feed, twitter or simply a separate mailing list. It's just an idea, not a critic on what you do. Taco I will not upload any more Intavolations. My work was thought for the luteplayers in any level. Not everybody can play the English Treble Ground duets or the very complicated Terzi duos or some else. If I look at mediafire, where I first uploaded my Intavolations, there are more than 15000 downloads! So I dont understand your opinion about solo lute players. May be,- but thats one of my reasons I do the Intavolations! I was 10 years teacher for classical guitar and later 15 years for the Renaissance lute. And my experience with all the hundreds of pupils was that they could benefit a lot of ensemble playing. Rhythme, Hearing, Playing prima vista, and a lot more. But a crucial effect is the sound effect of more lutes in an ensemble. Because of the less technical demand the lute players in an Ensemble has an overwelming soundeffect. But I dont want to defend my work. So if you feel so, I dont will upload any more Intavolations. I think my announcements are not too much, when I have a look at some gibberish you can find here. (More than one has complained this!) But ok, why should I make any uploads more? So all lute players who has downloaded my work, will give thanks to you! Anton To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: Feeds and dumps
Hi Anton, Taco, and all, RSS feeds have been an elegant and non-intrusive way for consumers to keep abreast of newly published documents for some time now. Here is an example: http://musickshandmade.com/lute/collections/feed.rss. If you follow that link you will see a link to a transcription of Arthurs dump from the Marsh LB. Following a recent discussion on dumps on this list, I decided to try to recap the current state of knowledge on the Dump as a type of music and collected various quotes and documents to that effect. Unfortunately, not only is the evidence fuzzy at best, but I was lead in the direction of an even more elusive Irish topic and instrument: the tiompan. Maybe some of you will find that information entertaining, and perhaps some of the documents useful. I also linked in the facsimile images of the piece from the Braye MS. Any feedback on the dump would be of considerable interest to me, gross as it may sound. I have not been able to check the latest Grove information for instance which is a real shame. Alain On 7/24/2012 7:23 AM, Taco Walstra wrote: On 07/23/2012 05:04 PM, Anton Höger wrote: Ok, I wrote that IMSLP always check the uploads and need at least one day. Because I often make a transcription for guitar too, it seems that IMSLP cannot handle with the same file name. But sorry if you feel that my more hundreds of Intavolations for 2-4 lutes in any tunings are to much, anton, I didn't write that I don't like your intavolations or guitar arrangements. Please don't be so quickly offended by what I wrote and please do continue your work. I only asked what the purpose is of sending emails for every addition or minor change to a piece, while there are so many better alternatives for getting the attention of your efforts like a webpage with a latest additions page, a rss xml feed, twitter or simply a separate mailing list. It's just an idea, not a critic on what you do. Taco I will not upload any more Intavolations. My work was thought for the luteplayers in any level. Not everybody can play the English Treble Ground duets or the very complicated Terzi duos or some else. If I look at mediafire, where I first uploaded my Intavolations, there are more than 15000 downloads! So I dont understand your opinion about solo lute players. May be,- but thats one of my reasons I do the Intavolations! I was 10 years teacher for classical guitar and later 15 years for the Renaissance lute. And my experience with all the hundreds of pupils was that they could benefit a lot of ensemble playing. Rhythme, Hearing, Playing prima vista, and a lot more. But a crucial effect is the sound effect of more lutes in an ensemble. Because of the less technical demand the lute players in an Ensemble has an overwelming soundeffect. But I dont want to defend my work. So if you feel so, I dont will upload any more Intavolations. I think my announcements are not too much, when I have a look at some gibberish you can find here. (More than one has complained this!) But ok, why should I make any uploads more? So all lute players who has downloaded my work, will give thanks to you! Anton To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute Ensemble
Anton, A I think the work you do is marvelous and a great teaching tool.A Too much music in this world and not enough time to assimilate it all.A With your intabulations it allows players of different levels to play together. A BTW, have you ever thought of doing intabulations of medieval music.A I have done some on occasion for the purpose of playing with other lute players.A They can be quite challenging as well. A please continue to upate us. A Bruno Montreal Canada [1]www.estavel.org A On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 10:23 AM, Taco Walstra [2]wals...@science.uva.nl wrote: On 07/23/2012 05:04 PM, Anton HAP:ger wrote: Ok, I wrote that IMSLP always check the uploads and need A at least one day. Because I often make a transcription for guitar too, it seems that IMSLP cannot handle with the same file name. But sorry if you feel that my more hundreds of Intavolations for 2-4 lutes in any tunings are to much, anton, I didn't write that I don't like your intavolations or guitar arrangements. Please don't be so quickly offended by what I wrote and please do continue your work. I only asked what the purpose is of sending emails for every addition or minor change to a piece, while there are so many better alternatives for getting the attention of your efforts like a webpage with a latest additions page, a rss xml feed, twitter or simply a separate mailing list. It's just an idea, not a critic on what you do. Taco I will not upload any more Intavolations. My work was thought for the luteplayers in any level. Not everybody can play the English Treble Ground duets or the very complicated Terzi duos or some else. If I look at mediafire, where I first uploaded my Intavolations, there are more than 15000 downloads! So I dont understand your opinion about solo lute players. May be,- but thats one of my reasons I do the Intavolations! I was 10 years teacher for classical guitar and later 15 years for the Renaissance lute. And my experience with all the hundreds of pupils was that they could benefit a lot of ensemble playing. Rhythme, Hearing, Playing prima vista, and a lot more. But a crucial effect is the sound effect of more lutes in an ensemble. Because of the less technical demand the lute players in an Ensemble has an overwelming soundeffect. But I dont want to defend my work. So if you feel so, I dont will upload any more Intavolations. I think my announcements are not too much, when I have a look at some gibberish you can find here. (More than one has complained this!) But ok, why should I make any uploads more? So all lute players who has downloaded my work, will give thanks to you! Anton To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- -- A Bruno Cognyl-Fournier A [4]www.estavel.org A -- References 1. http://www.estavel.org/ 2. mailto:wals...@science.uva.nl 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 4. http://www.estavel.org/
[LUTE] Re: Lute Ensemble
I am also very appreciative of Anton's efforts and generosity! (Thank you, Anton!) I like that Anton notifies this list of recent uploads and changes. It helps to keep me up-to-date with Anton's postings (no small task!). This list doesn't seem, to me, overburdened by this sort of notice. I am happy with his move to the IMSLP. Anton did mention the one day delay when he first started posting there and occasionally reminders us in his mailings to this group. In my experience a problem with the link most often has been because I have been too anxious (meaning too early)! But perhaps delaying the notice to this email list by one day might be considered. There are other possibilities for posting lute scores -- such as the Lute (or Early Guitar Vihuela!) Ning site, but I find it less than ideal for the type and quantity of offerings by Anton. Most lutenists may well be primarily solo players, but my life and music-making would be substantially poorer (literally and figuratively) without making music with other people--and that includes other lutenists. We do not have any great wealth of ensemble music, especially for 3 or 4 lutes. So I am happy about every new piece I find. Having a wider variety of lute ensemble music creates more options when trying to program to certain criteria, also. A group of us lutenists in Minnesota are planning on including some of Anton's arrangements in a program for the Minnesota Guitar Society in January 2013. We just have to figure out which! Thank you for your continued efforts, Anton! -- R To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
