[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise
Thank's for this. I can't actually see that inverted 7 6 sequences dictate a non re-entrant tuning - the low tessitura one sometimes has is just part and parcel of the instrument. And I agree with the anonymous author of the Facebook article you mention who wote: ' in the second section of the example bars 3 and 4 show this. The 7 6 chain shown gets very low and dark, the 7 6 from 2nd to 4th course would be v odd with a higher octave 2nd course. I personally accept harmony below the bass with 2 reentrant strings as a pleasant sonority. the bass played with the thumb stretched out and the fingers v close to the bridge ameliorates the effect to me. Further, when realising accompaniments I do think there's a modern tendency to be overly concerned about considerations of part writing and of ensuring a particular line doesn't jump the octave. A concern not always shared by early players: some of the few intabulated realisations we have don't often seem too bothered about jumping around or being focused on maintaining the integrity of an upper line. For example passages in Kapsberger's 1612 'Libro Primo di Arie.' As I see it, the theorbo is principally an instrument for producing a bass with, where possible, straightforward harmony to accompany others. A good example of this is Corradi's 1616 'Le Stravagaze' which generally exhibits simple block chords played with the bass with little or no independent contrapuntal lines. 'Going up the neck' is necessary if one has a re-entrant tuning (single or double) and a high bass note which you wish to play at the notated octave together with some harmony (altho of course there's no prohibition on taking notes/sequences of notes an octave down). For example, with a double re-entrant instrument in nominal A tuning: a d just above the bass clef must be taken on the fourth course (rather than the third) if one wishes to play some harmony above it (say a f# on the third or on the first course). With non re-entrant one could simply play the bass on the third course and the 3rd and, indeed, a 5th on the second and first respectively. Hence why 'going up the neck' suggests a re-entrant tuning. MH __ From: R. Mattes r...@mh-freiburg.de To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk; Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk; Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, 24 February 2014, 17:23 Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise On Mon, 24 Feb 2014 08:29:00 + (GMT), Martyn Hodgson wrote I don't have this work either - I think... @Monica: are you by any chance refering to [1]https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.441553512620558.1073741827 .253474818095096type=1 (Bartolotti continuo and solo similarities - from [2]https://www.facebook.com/Tiorba)? BTW, there's an image of page 52. or me this example works _much_ better in a non-reentrant tuning (N.B: Ms. one has an error: the second chor should read dfbflat). Why would Bartolotti start thist example with horribly wrong conterpoint? In reentrant tuning the 7-6 would transmogrify into a perfect fifth (f c) resolving to a forth (f bflat) [1]. To be followed by a chain of 2nd chords ... Yes, we all know that a 7-6 chain can be inverted (double counterpoint) into a 2-3 chain but we also know this doesn't work with a third voice running a third above the bass (since the fith between this voice and the 7th would invert into a (false/wrong) forth. We know our counterpoint - Bartolotti didn't? This all does not happen with a non-reentrant tuning. The one problematic spot for a non-reentrant tuning is Ms.13 - here the 7th (e natural, second string) would resolve into a 6th (d, fifth string), a problem easily solveable by playing the resolution on the third string. That spot makes much more sense in an reentrant tuning (moving from an open string g in ms. 10 to same note fretted on the second string, third fret ms. 11). And I'm not quite sure what you mean in the page 6-7 example. But doesn't the use of higher positions suggest a re-entrant (single or double) tuning rather than the reverse, since it still allows for some harmony to be played above the bass line? No. Once you are an the highest string (string 3 for an reentrant tuning) the strings above will actually be below. That's exactly what would happen on page 52. Going up the neck is as common on a archlute as it is on a theorbo. Cheers, RalfD [1] Yeah, that's why the called him ... without doubt the most skillful upon the theorbo. -- References 1. https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.441553512620558.1073741827.253474818095096type=1 2. https://www.facebook.com/Tiorba To get on or off this list see list information at
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise
Martyn, I agree that seicento pluckers often played harmony below the bass. This is another way of saying that they recognized and used chord inversion even though musicians weren't supposed to be aware of root equivalency at the time. However, we know that guitarists certainly did with alfabeto, in which identical finger shapes resulted in harmonic units that would change position dependent upon the tuning used. Lute and theorbo players did as well. For example, in the songs with bass lines and written theorbo parts in Castaldi's Capricci a due stromenti..., he often inverts chords to make the part idiomatic to the instrument. There's a passage in Al mormorio in which the bass line steps down, A-G-F#. In the written out thoerbo part, Castaldi harmonizes the A with a root position minor chord on the 6th course, but then unexpectedly places a root position D major chord UNDER the F#. Tellingly, he then omits the G because its role is to provide smooth voice leading between the A and F#. As Castaldi has an F natural 8th course, his whole reason for introducing the change is to accommodate some type of harmony on the F#. He could have simply played a 6/3 chord on the F# by placing it in a upper octave, but this would have resulted in a thinner, less resonant sonority. It is extremely interesting to note, therefore, that he feels free to alter the chord position where needed to make the part more satisfying according to the resources of the instrument. This sort of practice must be what Caccini had in mind when he enigmatically stated in the preface to Le nuove musiche that, I have made use of counterpoint only so that the parts would agree [on paper?]. He also says that an aria or solo madrigal performed in this manner, will delight more than one which has all the art of counterpoint. In other words, the bass line may function in much the same way as the chords on a jazz lead sheet: as a generator of notes that a player may potentially re-arrange according to dramatic context or idiomatic needs of the instrument. Chris Dr. Christopher Wilke D.M.A. Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com On Tue, 2/25/14, Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise To: R. Mattes r...@mh-freiburg.de, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk, Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Tuesday, February 25, 2014, 4:52 AM Thank's for this. I can't actually see that inverted 7 6 sequences dictate a non re-entrant tuning - the low tessitura one sometimes has is just part and parcel of the instrument. And I agree with the anonymous author of the Facebook article you mention who wote: ' in the second section of the example bars 3 and 4 show this. The 7 6 chain shown gets very low and dark, the 7 6 from 2nd to 4th course would be v odd with a higher octave 2nd course. I personally accept harmony below the bass with 2 reentrant strings as a pleasant sonority. the bass played with the thumb stretched out and the fingers v close to the bridge ameliorates the effect to me. Further, when realising accompaniments I do think there's a modern tendency to be overly concerned about considerations of part writing and of ensuring a particular line doesn't jump the octave. A concern not always shared by early players: some of the few intabulated realisations we have don't often seem too bothered about jumping around or being focused on maintaining the integrity of an upper line. For example passages in Kapsberger's 1612 'Libro Primo di Arie.' As I see it, the theorbo is principally an instrument for producing a bass with, where possible, straightforward harmony to accompany others. A good example of this is Corradi's 1616 'Le Stravagaze' which generally exhibits simple block chords played with the bass with little or no independent contrapuntal lines. 'Going up the neck' is necessary if one has a re-entrant tuning (single or double) and a high bass note which you wish to play at the notated octave together with some harmony (altho of course there's no prohibition on taking notes/sequences of notes an octave down). For example, with a double re-entrant instrument in nominal A tuning: a d just above the bass clef must be taken on the fourth course (rather than the third) if one wishes to play some harmony above it (say a f# on the third or on the first course). With non re-entrant one could simply play the bass on the third course and the 3rd and, indeed, a 5th on the second and first respectively. Hence why 'going up the neck' suggests a re-entrant tuning. MH __ From: R. Mattes r...@mh-freiburg.de To: Martyn Hodgson
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise
Indeed - and, truth be told, I sometimes do it myself (ie adjusting the bass line) when wanting a particularly strong chord not practicable with the bass as found - especially when playing theorbo continuo in opera, large cantatas and the like where there is usually at least one other instrument playing the bass line alone (eg a bass violin or similar). MH __ From: Christopher Wilke chriswi...@yahoo.com To: R. Mattes r...@mh-freiburg.de; Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk; Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Sent: Tuesday, 25 February 2014, 13:28 Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise Martyn, I agree that seicento pluckers often played harmony below the bass. This is another way of saying that they recognized and used chord inversion even though musicians weren't supposed to be aware of root equivalency at the time. However, we know that guitarists certainly did with alfabeto, in which identical finger shapes resulted in harmonic units that would change position dependent upon the tuning used. Lute and theorbo players did as well. For example, in the songs with bass lines and written theorbo parts in Castaldi's Capricci a due stromenti..., he often inverts chords to make the part idiomatic to the instrument. There's a passage in Al mormorio in which the bass line steps down, A-G-F#. In the written out thoerbo part, Castaldi harmonizes the A with a root position minor chord on the 6th course, but then unexpectedly places a root position D major chord UNDER the F#. Tellingly, he then omits the G because its role is to provide smooth voice leading between the A and F#. As Castaldi has an F natural 8th course, his whole reason for introducing the change is to accommodate some type of harmony on the F#. He could have simply played a 6/3 chord on the F# by placing it in a upper octave, but this would have resulted in a thinner, less resonant sonority. It is extremely interesting to note, therefore, that he feels free to alter the chord position where needed to make the part more satisfying according to the resources of the instrument. This sort of practice must be what Caccini had in mind when he enigmatically stated in the preface to Le nuove musiche that, I have made use of counterpoint only so that the parts would agree [on paper?]. He also says that an aria or solo madrigal performed in this manner, will delight more than one which has all the art of counterpoint. In other words, the bass line may function in much the same way as the chords on a jazz lead sheet: as a generator of notes that a player may potentially re-arrange according to dramatic context or idiomatic needs of the instrument. Chris Dr. Christopher Wilke D.M.A. Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com On Tue, 2/25/14, Martyn Hodgson [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise To: R. Mattes [2]r...@mh-freiburg.de, Monica Hall [3]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk, Lutelist [4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Tuesday, February 25, 2014, 4:52 AM Thank's for this. I can't actually see that inverted 7 6 sequences dictate a non re-entrant tuning - the low tessitura one sometimes has is just part and parcel of the instrument. And I agree with the anonymous author of the Facebook article you mention who wote: ' in the second section of the example bars 3 and 4 show this. The 7 6 chain shown gets very low and dark, the 7 6 from 2nd to 4th course would be v odd with a higher octave 2nd course. I personally accept harmony below the bass with 2 reentrant strings as a pleasant sonority. the bass played with the thumb stretched out and the fingers v close to the bridge ameliorates the effect to me. Further, when realising accompaniments I do think there's a modern tendency to be overly concerned about considerations of part writing and of ensuring a particular line doesn't jump the octave. A concern not always shared by early players: some of the few intabulated realisations we have don't often seem too bothered about jumping around or being focused on maintaining the integrity of an upper line. For example passages in Kapsberger's 1612 'Libro Primo di Arie.' As I see it, the theorbo is principally an instrument for producing a bass with, where possible, straightforward harmony to accompany others. A good example of this is Corradi's 1616 'Le Stravagaze' which generally exhibits simple block chords played with the bass with little or no independent
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise
On Tue, 25 Feb 2014 09:52:18 + (GMT), Martyn Hodgson wrote Thank's for this. I can't actually see that inverted 7 6 sequences dictate a non re-entrant tuning - the low tessitura one sometimes has is just part and parcel of the instrument. And I agree with the anonymous author of the Facebook article you mention who wote: That would be Matthew Jones. ' in the second section of the example bars 3 and 4 show this. The 7 6 chain shown gets very low and dark, the 7 6 from 2nd to 4th course would be v odd with a higher octave 2nd course. Yes, that particular meassure would be odd. But that oddness _does_ exist in Bartolotti's solo music (as M. Jones points out in another post). And this is an oddness that could easily be avoided by playing the e on the fifth string, second fret. So this measure clearly is an argument against the example being written for an non-reentrant instrument. But the fist few are odd (no, they are actually gibberish). And since there are examples for the first kind of oddness (i.e. resolving to the wrong octave) I have yet to find one of the second kind (i.e. inverting 73-63 to 24-35) [M. Jones continues ...] I personally accept harmony below the bass with 2 reentrant strings as a pleasant sonority. the bass played with the thumb stretched out and the fingers v close to the bridge ameliorates the effect to me. There is no such thing as harmony below bass. Please, get all out of your Berkeley Jazz shoes, now. If you play a realization like the given Bartolotti example on a reentrant instrument you simply create a new bass voice (and a pretty bad on, in this case). The continuo bass is the lowest voice - that's not a concept I invented, it's at the core of what Banchieri calls 'basso seguente' (and probably one of the main techniques that triggered the development of B.C. - at some point organists realized that a basso sequente together with some hints (read: numbers) would be enough to sketch down a composition, nad way easier to produce than the intabulations they had to prepare to be able to play colla parte). [now Martin:] Further, when realising accompaniments I do think there's a modern tendency to be overly concerned about considerations of part writing and of ensuring a particular line doesn't jump the octave. Is there? More than back then? The continuo methods I've read so far (quite some, if I might say) that deal with dissonances at all (i.e. those that go beyond the three sheet Idiot's guide to B.C.) all take great care to keep the parts in order. Just as an example: look at Muffat's treaties (IMHO one of the best to start with for an aspiring lute player), when he describes chains of parallel 6th chords (trivial if you play three voices - nasty if you want four) he takes great care that the fourth voice in his four voice example is correct. Actually, even the Bartolotti examples (sans the odd measures) is a fine example of partwriting. And just to mention it: full playing (i.e. more than four voices) is always a correct core plus some notes doubled. A concern not always shared by early players: some of the few intabulated realisations we have don't often seem too bothered about jumping around or being focused on maintaining the integrity of an upper line. For example passages in Kapsberger's 1612 'Libro Primo di Arie.' As I see it, the theorbo is principally an instrument for producing a bass with, where possible, straightforward harmony to accompany others. A good example of this is Corradi's 1616 'Le Stravagaze' which generally exhibits simple block chords played with the bass with little or no independent contrapuntal lines. I am more than a little bit reluctant to compare accompainments for Villanella type music with Bartolotti's refined continuo realizations. I think we desperately need to try distinguish between different styles (as the old ones did). Villanella style is know for it's (purpously!) rustic counterpoint. The only dissonances in Corradi are the cadencial 4th and the passing 7th on the antepenultima. And those never violate counterpoint. BTW, I've probably said It before - I think it's very problematic to simply read such sources as Kapsberger and Corradi as BC realizations. There's a big chance that they where meant as _alternative_ ways to accompain the music. Remember: While every BC is an accompainment, not every accompainment is a BC. 'Going up the neck' is necessary if one has a re-entrant tuning (single or double) and a high bass note which you wish to play at the notated octave together with some harmony (altho of course there's no prohibition on taking notes/sequences of notes an octave down). For example, with a double re-entrant instrument in nominal A tuning: a d just above the bass clef must be taken on the fourth course (rather than the third) if one wishes to play some harmony above it (say a f# on the third or on the first course). With non re-entrant one could
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise
On Tue, 25 Feb 2014 05:28:26 -0800 (PST), Christopher Wilke wrote I agree that seicento pluckers often played harmony below the bass. How would you know. This is another way of saying that they recognized and used chord inversion Now what? This definition is _disagrees_ with the example given. even though musicians weren't supposed to be aware of root equivalency at the time. We know how the thought, wrote and reasond about it. Of course we can just ignore all texts written by musicians for musicians and play Captain Let's-pretend. Not my way to aproach early music. However, we know that guitarists certainly did with alfabeto, in which identical finger shapes resulted in harmonic units that would change position dependent upon the tuning used. First, as I've said before: a guitar accompaniment is not a vaild source for continuo realizations! Guitar players where actually known for there inability to play sophisticated music (and that's why everyone and their grandmother sneered at them). Lute and theorbo players did as well. For example, in the songs with bass lines and written theorbo parts in Castaldi's Capricci a due stromenti..., he often inverts chords to make the part idiomatic to the instrument. There's a passage in Al mormorio in which the bass line steps down, A-G-F#. In the written out thoerbo part, Castaldi harmonizes the A with a root position minor chord on the 6th course, but then unexpectedly places a root position D major chord UNDER the F#. Tellingly, he then omits the G because its role is to provide smooth voice leading between the A and F#.As Castaldi has an F natural 8th course, his whole reason for introducing the change is to accommodate some type of harmony on the F#. He could have simply played a 6/3 chord on the F# by placing it in a upper octave, but this would have resulted in a thinner, less resonant sonority. It is extremely interesting to note, therefore, that he feels free to alter the chord position where needed to make the part more satisfying according to the resources of the instrument. Wait, wait. Do yo uthink that the lower vocal part is also meant as a BC part? This is a vocal duo with written out theorbo accompaniment. The theorbo bass voice is an independent voice. At exactly the place you mention it's playing cute motivic games with the vocal basso (voice: a g fis g, answered by g a b c). This sort of practice must be what Caccini had in mind when he enigmatically stated in the preface to Le nuove musiche that, I have made use of counterpoint only so that the parts would agree [on paper?]. He also says that an aria or solo madrigal performed in this manner, will delight more than one which has all the art of counterpoint. In other words, the bass line may function in much the same way as the chords on a jazz lead sheet: as a generator of notes that a player may potentially re-arrange according to dramatic context or idiomatic needs of the instrument. Sorry, but I can't even start to see how you would drwa such conclusions from Caccini's words. That text just claims that the art of the composition doesn't rely on the artfulness of the counterpoint (as did music up to then). That's what makes his music nuove. Cheers, RalfD To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise
Ralf, On Tue, 2/25/14, R. Mattes r...@mh-freiburg.de wrote: There is no such thing as harmony below bass. Please, get all out of your Berkeley Jazz shoes, now. No, everyone keep your shoes on, please! In fact, 17th century players frequently utilized the option to play harmony below the bass by recognizing chord roots and inverting them as was practical. There are even examples of written out lute realizations in which every single chord has been voiced in root position(!), which clearly shows that they understood the theoretical principles at work, even if they lacked a terminology to discuss them in today's lingo (i.e. Berkeley Jazz shoes). According to what we know of 17th century theory, players couldn't do this, but, well, um, they did. I noted one such instance from Castaldi in my last post. I discuss many more in far greater depth in an article I wrote for the LSA which has very frustratingly been in publishing limbo for several years. Chris Dr. Christopher Wilke D.M.A. Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise
Ralf, On Tue, 2/25/14, R. Mattes r...@mh-freiburg.de wrote: First, as I've said before: a guitar accompaniment is not a vaild source for continuo realizations! Guitar players where actually known for there inability to play sophisticated music... Whether the music they played is sophisticated enough for anyone's taste is irrelevant: as a resource, it reflects some 17th century musicians' ability to recognize that identical groups of notes resulted in functionally identical vertical sonorities independent of octave placement or voice leading. In other words, they knew a Cm7 chord was a Cmin7 chord whether it had a C, an E-flat, a G or a B-flat under it. Quite sophisticated thinking, actually. Do yo uthink that the lower vocal part is also meant as a BC part? This is a vocal duo with written out theorbo accompaniment. The theorbo bass voice is an independent voice. Whether the bass is sung or not is irrelevant because the part in bass clef functions as the continuo line. The theorbo bass is definitely not an independent voice since 99% of the time Castaldi reproduces the line of the basso exactly, an octave lower. Castaldi only deviates from the mensural bass for reasons specific to the theorbo, like when he couldn't play the expected low F#. His solution demonstrates the types of options that a 17th musician felt were valid. Chris Dr. Christopher Wilke D.M.A. Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise
Further observations are in line below in small text caps since, at least for me, Wayne's robot seems to alter formatting - or whatever - and reduces the texts to numerous short broken up passages running over numerous pages. I've asked him about it.. Also see Wilke's note. MH PS On another possible Bartolotti matter altogether. Quite a few years ago I posted a message about one of the theorbo pieces found at the end of NB Wien 17.706 - possibly by Bartolotti since the MS contains a number of theorbo solos ascribed to Angelo Michiele (presumably our man). On 90v, bottom system are various chords mostly three notes, but one five, with little numbers (either a 3 or a 2) placed under them. The music is in French tablature with the usual way of showing the basses (ie with slashes and then numbers 4 to 7). I had thought these 2s or 3s might show ways of breaking each chord - but couldn't make much sense. At the time no responses came! Have you (or anyone else for that matter) any thoughts? MH __ From: R. Mattes r...@mh-freiburg.de To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk; Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Sent: Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise On Tue, 25 Feb 2014 09:52:18 + (GMT), Martyn Hodgson wrote Thank's for this. I can't actually see that inverted 7 6 sequences dictate a non re-entrant tuning - the low tessitura one sometimes has is just part and parcel of the instrument. THE ABOVE STANDS. I agree with the anonymous author of the Facebook article you mention who wote: That would be Matthew Jones. ' in the second section of the example bars 3 and 4 show this. The 7 6 chain shown gets very low and dark, the 7 6 from 2nd to 4th course would be v odd with a higher octave 2nd course. Yes, that particular meassure would be odd. But that oddness _does_ exist in Bartolotti's solo music (as M. Jones points out in another post). And this is an oddness that could easily be avoided by playing the e on the fifth string, second fret. So this measure clearly is an argument against the example being written for an non-reentrant instrument. INDEED But the fist few are odd (no, they are actually gibberish). And since there are examples for the first kind of oddness (i.e. resolving to the wrong octave) I have yet to find one of the second kind (i.e. inverting 73-63 to 24-35) [M. Jones continues ...] I personally accept harmony below the bass with 2 reentrant strings as a pleasant sonority. the bass played with the thumb stretched out and the fingers v close to the bridge ameliorates the effect to me. There is no such thing as harmony below bass. Please, get all out of your Berkeley Jazz shoes, now. I DON'T UNDERSTAND THE REFERENCE - SORRY. If you play a realization like the given Bartolotti example on a reentrant instrument you simply create a new bass voice (and a pretty bad on, in this case). The continuo bass is the lowest voice AS WILKE POINTS OUT, BUT NOT ALWAYS STRICTLY FOLLOWED AT THE TIME BY THEORBO PLAYERS SUCH AS KAPSBERGER. - that's not a concept I invented, it's at the core of what Banchieri calls 'basso seguente' (and probably one of the main techniques that triggered the development of B.C. - at some point organists realized that a basso sequente together with some hints (read: numbers) would be enough to sketch down a composition, nad way easier to produce than the intabulations they had to prepare to be able to play colla parte). [now Martin:] Further, when realising accompaniments I do think there's a modern tendency to be overly concerned about considerations of part writing and of ensuring a particular line doesn't jump the octave. IN THIS I AM REFERRING TO REALISATION ON THE THEORBO - NOT ON THE KEYBOARD. Is there? More than back then? The continuo methods I've read so far (quite some, if I might say) that deal with dissonances at all (i.e. those that go beyond the three sheet Idiot's guide to B.C.) all take great care to keep the parts in order. Just as an example: look at Muffat's treaties (IMHO one of the best to start with for an aspiring lute player), when he describes chains of parallel 6th chords (trivial if you play three voices - nasty if you want four) he takes great care that the fourth voice in his four voice example is correct. Actually, even the Bartolotti examples (sans the odd measures) is a fine example of partwriting. And just to mention it: full playing (i.e. more than four voices) is always a correct core plus some notes doubled. REGARDING REALISATIONS ON THE THEORBO (RATHER THAN KEYBOARD), LOOK AT THE INTABULATIONS NOT JUST THE THEORBO 'METHODS' -
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise
Wow ! Ralf, How can you be so blunt an unfair towards guitar music and guitar players. When the Chevalier de Grammont in his Mémoires, speaks of Corbetta he uses very laudatory terms, and of course, after praising Corbetta's talent, he sneers at the universal fashion to play the guitar just because it was the fashion, la raclerie universelle, meaning that amateurs who pretended to imitate the masters were ridiculous... But the important point is that he acknowledges Corbetta's immense talent as a player and a musician. And you can't deny that Corbetta's music is quite often so sophisticated that it is very hard to play properly. It is a bit too simple to brush aside all the treatises for continuo realization on the guitar. They are perfectly justified and are the reflection of a common practice at the time. Here is the passage in question (I am confident that you can read French) : Il y avoit un certain Italien à la Cour, fameux pour la guitare. Il avoit du génie pour la musique, et c'est le seul qui de la guitare ait pu faire quelque chose; mais sa composition étoit si gracieuse et si tendre qu'il auroit donné de l'harmonie au plus ingrat de tous les instruments. La vérité est que rien n'étoit plus difficile que de jouer à sa manière. Le goût du roi pour ses compositions avoit tellement mis cet instrument à la mode que tout le monde en jouoit bien ou mal, et sur la toilette des belles on étoit aussi sûr de voir une guitare que d'y trouver du rouge et des mouches. Le duc d'York en jouoit passablement, et le comte d'Arran comme Francisco lui-même. Ce Francisque venoit de faire une sarabande qui charmoit ou désoloit tout le monde : car toute la guitarerie de la Cour se mit à l'apprendre, et Dieu sait la raclerie universelle que c'étoit ! I do not agree at all that the music of Visée, Bartolotti, Campion, Grénerin, just to name a few, was not sophisticated. Quite the contrary IMHO. Best, Jean-Marie Poirier -- On Tue, 25 Feb 2014 05:28:26 -0800 (PST), Christopher Wilke wrote First, as I've said before: a guitar accompaniment is not a vaild source for continuo realizations! Guitar players where actually known for there inability to play sophisticated music (and that's why everyone and their grandmother sneered at them). To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise
Wow ! Ralf, How can you be so blunt an unfair towards guitar music and guitar players. When the Chevalier de Grammont in his Mémoires, speaks of Corbetta he uses very laudatory terms, and of course, after praising Corbetta's talent, he sneers at the universal fashion to play the guitar just because it was the fashion, la raclerie universelle, meaning that amateurs who pretended to imitate the masters were ridiculous... But the important point is that he acknowledges Corbetta's immense talent as a player and a musician. And you can't deny that Corbetta's music is quite often so sophisticated that it is very hard to play properly. It is a bit too simple to brush aside all the treatises for continuo realization on the guitar. They are perfectly justified and are the reflection of a common practice at the time. Here is the passage in question (I am confident that you can read French) : Il y avoit un certain Italien à la Cour, fameux pour la guitare. Il avoit du génie pour la musique, et c'est le seul qui de la guitare ait pu faire quelque chose; mais sa composition étoit si gracieuse et si tendre qu'il auroit donné de l'harmonie au plus ingrat de tous les instruments. La vérité est que rien n'étoit plus difficile que de jouer à sa manière. Le goût du roi pour ses compositions avoit tellement mis cet instrument à la mode que tout le monde en jouoit bien ou mal, et sur la toilette des belles on étoit aussi sûr de voir une guitare que d'y trouver du rouge et des mouches. Le duc d'York en jouoit passablement, et le comte d'Arran comme Francisco lui-même. Ce Francisque venoit de faire une sarabande qui charmoit ou désoloit tout le monde : car toute la guitarerie de la Cour se mit à l'apprendre, et Dieu sait la raclerie universelle que c'étoit ! I do not agree at all that the music of Visée, Bartolotti, Campion, Grénerin, just to name a few, was not sophisticated. Quite the contrary IMHO. Best, Jean-Marie Poirier -- First, as I've said before: a guitar accompaniment is not a vaild source for continuo realizations! Guitar players where actually known for there inability to play sophisticated music (and that's why everyone and their grandmother sneered at them). To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise
On Tue, 25 Feb 2014 07:41:43 -0800 (PST), Christopher Wilke wrote Ralf, On Tue, 2/25/14, R. Mattes r...@mh-freiburg.de wrote: There is no such thing as harmony below bass. Please, get all out of your Berkeley Jazz shoes, now. No, everyone keep your shoes on, please! In fact, 17th century players frequently utilized the option to play harmony below the bass by recognizing chord roots and inverting them as was practical. There are even examples of written out lute realizations in which every single chord has been voiced in root position(!), But that is not harmony below the bass at all. That's just substituting the bass note. which clearly shows that they understood the theoretical principles at work, even if they lacked a terminology to discuss them in today's lingo (i.e. Berkeley Jazz shoes). According to what we know of 17th century theory, players couldn't do this, but, well, um, they did. I noted one such instance from Castaldi in my last post. Yes, but there is no mystery at all in that example - and no need to refer to modern (read: Rameauistic) terminology. At that spot Castaldi just susbstitutes a Clausula Cantizans with a *Clausula Fundamentalis. As you see, they even had a name for it (and allready Vincentino 1555 mentions the possibility to substitute one with another). Any musician with only moderate training would know by heart that a cantizans fa-mi-fa would go together with a fundamentalis la-re-sol or ut-re-sol and that would fit to a tenorizans mi-re-ut or fa-re-ut and fa-fa-ut and which of these patterns can be (re-)combined. I discuss many more in far greater depth in an article I wrote for the LSA which has very frustratingly been in publishing limbo for several years. Too bad - I'd love to read it at some point. Can't you publish it somewhere else (or publish it online)? I hate when valuable information gets lost ... Cheers, RalfD To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise
On Feb 25, 2014, at 8:44 AM, Jean-Marie Poirier jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr wrote: Here is the passage in question (I am confident that you can read French) : For those who canât, I will helpfully offer a translation from Google Language Tools. I think it speaks for itself. He had some Italian in the Court, famous for the guitar. He had a genius for music, and this is the only guitar could do something;., But its composition was so gracious and so tender that it would have given the harmony most ungrateful of all instruments. the truth is that nothing was more difficult than playing his way. taste the king for his compositions had made ââthe instrument so fashionable that all played upon the world good or bad, and the toilet was beautiful also sure to see a guitar to find the red and flies. The Duke of York played upon fairly, and the Earl of Arran as Francisco itself. This Frantz had just made a sarabande or désoloit that charmed everyone: for all guitarerie Court began to learn, and God knows the Universal raclerie it was! -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise
Thank you Howard but Google is not completely up to point. Here is my translation, not very far from Google's but... There was at court (of Charles II of England) a certain Italianwho was famous for the guitar. He had genius for music, and he wa the only one who could do something with the guitar; but his composition was so gracious and so tender that he would have given harmony to the most ungrateful of all instruments. The truth is that nothing was more difficult than playing after his manner. The taste of the king for his compositions had made this instrument so fashionable that everybody would play it, good or bad, and on the ladies' dressing tables you would find a guitar as certainly as rouge and flies. The Duke of York could play it fairly well, and the count of Arran as well as Francisco himself. This Francisque had just composed a Saraband which charmed or afflicted everybody : because all guitar rakers at Court had started to learn it and God knows what a universal scraping that was ! At first sight but a bit more accurate than Google I hope ;-) ! Best, Jean-Marie Ps : Thank you for the precisions you gave me Ralf ! I feel reassured ;-) -- On Feb 25, 2014, at 8:44 AM, Jean-Marie Poirier jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr wrote: Here is the passage in question (I am confident that you can read French) : For those who can’t, I will helpfully offer a translation from Google Language Tools. I think it speaks for itself. He had some Italian in the Court, famous for the guitar. He had a genius for music, and this is the only guitar could do something;., But its composition was so gracious and so tender that it would have given the harmony most ungrateful of all instruments. the truth is that nothing was more difficult than playing his way. taste the king for his compositions had made ​​the instrument so fashionable that all played upon the world good or bad, and the toilet was beautiful also sure to see a guitar to find the red and flies. The Duke of York played upon fairly, and the Earl of Arran as Francisco itself. This Frantz had just made a sarabande or désoloit that charmed everyone: for all guitarerie Court began to learn, and God knows the Universal raclerie it was! -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise
Its getting a bit OT, but I think in the context 'mouche' on the ladies' dressing tables refers to something other than 'flies'. I've found another possible meaning: patch or ornament related to taffeta. Miles Dempster On Feb 25, 2014, at 12:44 PM, Jean-Marie Poirier jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr wrote: Thank you Howard but Google is not completely up to point. Here is my translation, not very far from Google's but... There was at court (of Charles II of England) a certain Italianwho was famous for the guitar. He had genius for music, and he wa the only one who could do something with the guitar; but his composition was so gracious and so tender that he would have given harmony to the most ungrateful of all instruments. The truth is that nothing was more difficult than playing after his manner. The taste of the king for his compositions had made this instrument so fashionable that everybody would play it, good or bad, and on the ladies' dressing tables you would find a guitar as certainly as rouge and flies. The Duke of York could play it fairly well, and the count of Arran as well as Francisco himself. This Francisque had just composed a Saraband which charmed or afflicted everybody : because all guitar rakers at Court had started to learn it and God knows what a universal scraping that was ! At first sight but a bit more accurate than Google I hope ;-) ! Best, Jean-Marie Ps : Thank you for the precisions you gave me Ralf ! I feel reassured ;-) -- On Feb 25, 2014, at 8:44 AM, Jean-Marie Poirier jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr wrote: Here is the passage in question (I am confident that you can read French) : For those who canât, I will helpfully offer a translation from Google Language Tools. I think it speaks for itself. He had some Italian in the Court, famous for the guitar. He had a genius for music, and this is the only guitar could do something;., But its composition was so gracious and so tender that it would have given the harmony most ungrateful of all instruments. the truth is that nothing was more difficult than playing his way. taste the king for his compositions had made ââthe instrument so fashionable that all played upon the world good or bad, and the toilet was beautiful also sure to see a guitar to find the red and flies. The Duke of York played upon fairly, and the Earl of Arran as Francisco itself. This Frantz had just made a sarabande or désoloit that charmed everyone: for all guitarerie Court began to learn, and God knows the Universal raclerie it was! -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise
Here is what you get from the Dictionary of the French Academy, 1694 : Mouche : Certain petit morceau de taffetas noir que les Dames se mettent sur le visage, ou pour cacher quelques eleveures, ou pour faire paroistre leur teint plus blanc. a mouche was a tiny spot of black taffeta that Ladies put (glue) on their face, to hide some small defects, or to make their complexion appear whiter... Jean-Marie -- Its getting a bit OT, but I think in the context 'mouche' on the ladies' dressing tables refers to something other than 'flies'. I've found another possible meaning: patch or ornament related to taffeta. Miles Dempster On Feb 25, 2014, at 12:44 PM, Jean-Marie Poirier jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr wrote: Thank you Howard but Google is not completely up to point. Here is my translation, not very far from Google's but... There was at court (of Charles II of England) a certain Italianwho was famous for the guitar. He had genius for music, and he wa the only one who could do something with the guitar; but his composition was so gracious and so tender that he would have given harmony to the most ungrateful of all instruments. The truth is that nothing was more difficult than playing after his manner. The taste of the king for his compositions had made this instrument so fashionable that everybody would play it, good or bad, and on the ladies' dressing tables you would find a guitar as certainly as rouge and flies. The Duke of York could play it fairly well, and the count of Arran as well as Francisco himself. This Francisque had just composed a Saraband which charmed or afflicted everybody : because all guitar rakers at Court had started to learn it and God knows what a universal scraping that was ! At first sight but a bit more accurate than Google I hope ;-) ! Best, Jean-Marie Ps : Thank you for the precisions you gave me Ralf ! I feel reassured ;-) -- On Feb 25, 2014, at 8:44 AM, Jean-Marie Poirier jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr wrote: Here is the passage in question (I am confident that you can read French) : For those who can’t, I will helpfully offer a translation from Google Language Tools. I think it speaks for itself. He had some Italian in the Court, famous for the guitar. He had a genius for music, and this is the only guitar could do something;., But its composition was so gracious and so tender that it would have given the harmony most ungrateful of all instruments. the truth is that nothing was more difficult than playing his way. taste the king for his compositions had made ​​the instrument so fashionable that all played upon the world good or bad, and the toilet was beautiful also sure to see a guitar to find the red and flies. The Duke of York played upon fairly, and the Earl of Arran as Francisco itself. This Frantz had just made a sarabande or désoloit that charmed everyone: for all guitarerie Court began to learn, and God knows the Universal raclerie it was! -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise
a mouche was an artificial beauty spot actually ! Jean-Marie -- Its getting a bit OT, but I think in the context 'mouche' on the ladies' dressing tables refers to something other than 'flies'. I've found another possible meaning: patch or ornament related to taffeta. Miles Dempster On Feb 25, 2014, at 12:44 PM, Jean-Marie Poirier jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr wrote: Thank you Howard but Google is not completely up to point. Here is my translation, not very far from Google's but... There was at court (of Charles II of England) a certain Italianwho was famous for the guitar. He had genius for music, and he wa the only one who could do something with the guitar; but his composition was so gracious and so tender that he would have given harmony to the most ungrateful of all instruments. The truth is that nothing was more difficult than playing after his manner. The taste of the king for his compositions had made this instrument so fashionable that everybody would play it, good or bad, and on the ladies' dressing tables you would find a guitar as certainly as rouge and flies. The Duke of York could play it fairly well, and the count of Arran as well as Francisco himself. This Francisque had just composed a Saraband which charmed or afflicted everybody : because all guitar rakers at Court had started to learn it and God knows what a universal scraping that was ! At first sight but a bit more accurate than Google I hope ;-) ! Best, Jean-Marie Ps : Thank you for the precisions you gave me Ralf ! I feel reassured ;-) -- On Feb 25, 2014, at 8:44 AM, Jean-Marie Poirier jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr wrote: Here is the passage in question (I am confident that you can read French) : For those who can’t, I will helpfully offer a translation from Google Language Tools. I think it speaks for itself. He had some Italian in the Court, famous for the guitar. He had a genius for music, and this is the only guitar could do something;., But its composition was so gracious and so tender that it would have given the harmony most ungrateful of all instruments. the truth is that nothing was more difficult than playing his way. taste the king for his compositions had made ​​the instrument so fashionable that all played upon the world good or bad, and the toilet was beautiful also sure to see a guitar to find the red and flies. The Duke of York played upon fairly, and the Earl of Arran as Francisco itself. This Frantz had just made a sarabande or désoloit that charmed everyone: for all guitarerie Court began to learn, and God knows the Universal raclerie it was! -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] making sure your message looks as you intended it -
Hi lute people - I recommend that when you compose a message to send to the lute list that you set the format to plain and avoid rich text and HTML. This will keep you from using formatting options that won't get past the mail list robot un-mangled. The lute list robot converts every message to plain text because there was a time, not long ago in lute builders time, when many of the readers could not interpret the fancier HTML coding that would appear in their mailbox, and they complained loudly about it. If it seems clear that now nobody is using a mail reader that doesn't understand HTML, I could start sending the mail on as HTML, which would allow people to use various fonts and colors in their messages. This would not be trivial for me to do, and some small number of messages would still come through garbled, but it is a possibility, if everyone on the list wanted things to work that way. I know a few people would be very excited to see HTML messages passed on in their original form, but I need to feel that everyone would prefer it. So let me know, one way or the other. Wayne To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: making sure your message looks as you intended it -
Hi Wayne, Would plain text continue to work? If so, I wouldn't imagine HTML messages would be a problem for any of us. Bill [1]Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android __ From: Wayne Cripps w...@cs.dartmouth.edu; To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Subject: [LUTE] making sure your message looks as you intended it - Sent: Tue, Feb 25, 2014 7:18:09 PM Hi lute people - I recommend that when you compose a message to send to the lute list that you set the format to plain and avoid rich text and HTML. This will keep you from using formatting options that won't get past the mail list robot un-mangled. The lute list robot converts every message to plain text because there was a time, not long ago in lute builders time, when many of the readers could not interpret the fancier HTML coding that would appear in their mailbox, and they complained loudly about it. If it seems clear that now nobody is using a mail reader that doesn't understand HTML, I could start sending the mail on as HTML, which would allow people to use various fonts and colors in their messages. This would not be trivial for me to do, and some small number of messages would still come through garbled, but it is a possibility, if everyone on the list wanted things to work that way. I know a few people would be very excited to see HTML messages passed on in their original form, but I need to feel that everyone would prefer it. So let me know, one way or the other. Wayne To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. https://uk.overview.mail.yahoo.com/mobile/?.src=Android 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: making sure your message looks as you intended it -
On Tue, 25 Feb 2014 14:18:09 -0500 (EST), Wayne Cripps wrote Hi lute people - I recommend that when you compose a message to send to the lute list that you set the format to plain and avoid rich text and HTML. This will keep you from using formatting options that won't get past the mail list robot un-mangled. Thanks for pointing that out. The lute list robot converts every message to plain text because there was a time, not long ago in lute builders time, when many of the readers could not interpret the fancier HTML coding that would appear in their mailbox, and they complained loudly about it. Unfortunately the bot _doesn't_ convert HTML messages. If it seems clear that now nobody is using a mail reader that doesn't understand HTML, I could start sending the mail on as HTML, which would allow people to use various fonts and colors in their messages. This would not be trivial for me to do, and some small number of messages would still come through garbled, but it is a possibility, if everyone on the list wanted things to work that way. I know a few people would be very excited to see HTML messages passed on in their original form, but I need to feel that everyone would prefer it. So let me know, one way or the other. Well, I myself would be bothered by HTML messages. Those messages are mostly unreadable on some of my (not-so) smartphones (ridiculous long lines that will refuse to reformat since the senders HTML mail editor considers line length to be such an important part of the message that it puts in hard line breaks ...). But even more important: I disable HTML mode in all my mail software since enabling HTML does not only open your mail up to all sorts of nasty, rude, slimy usertracking (looking into your direction, LSA 8-) but often also enables JavaScript as well (most Android mail readers) and that's a _real_ security issue (note: I'm not implying that any lute list member would actually send malicious code on purpose. But an inocent cross-site script and your browser/mail client will happily infect all your outgoing mail). Please, no HTML. Cheers, RalfD Wayne To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- R. Mattes - Hochschule fuer Musik Freiburg r...@inm.mh-freiburg.de
[LUTE] Re: making sure your message looks as you intended it -
test 123 à b c ç hello test , this is a test, à èè Bruno 2014-02-25 15:08 GMT-05:00 wayne cripps w...@cs.dartmouth.edu: I see test 123 then four a's with grave accents, c with cedilla,e repeated three times, then 6 c's with cedilla, and three e's with circumflex. This came to me directly, so it didn't go through the robot. W On Feb 25, 2014, at 2:38 PM, Bruno Fournier br...@estavel.org wrote: this is a test to see if I still get strange characters test 123 . çeçeçeççç êêê 2014-02-25 14:18 GMT-05:00 Wayne Cripps w...@cs.dartmouth.edu: Hi lute people - I recommend that when you compose a message to send to the lute list that you set the format to plain and avoid rich text and HTML. This will keep you from using formatting options that won't get past the mail list robot un-mangled. The lute list robot converts every message to plain text because there was a time, not long ago in lute builders time, when many of the readers could not interpret the fancier HTML coding that would appear in their mailbox, and they complained loudly about it. If it seems clear that now nobody is using a mail reader that doesn't understand HTML, I could start sending the mail on as HTML, which would allow people to use various fonts and colors in their messages. This would not be trivial for me to do, and some small number of messages would still come through garbled, but it is a possibility, if everyone on the list wanted things to work that way. I know a few people would be very excited to see HTML messages passed on in their original form, but I need to feel that everyone would prefer it. So let me know, one way or the other. Wayne To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Bruno Cognyl-Fournier www.estavel.org -- Bruno Cognyl-Fournier www.estavel.org
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise
On Feb 25, 2014, at 9:44 AM, Jean-Marie Poirier jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr wrote: Thank you Howard but Google is not completely up to point. Im shocked SHOCKED -- to hear it. At first sight but a bit more accurate than Google I hope ;-) ! Sorry, but theres simply no way to improve on the toilet was beautiful, and Shakespeare himself would be envious of taste the king for his compositions. Were dealing with great literature here. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise
Agreed Howard ! Google translations made my day a couple of times and I always advised my students to resort to it when they felt depressed and needed a bit of fun to brighten up ! Speaking of the great Bill, his monologue in Hamlet sifted through Google translator into French is a pure masterpiece ! He would be envious for sure ;-) Best, Jean-Marie -- On Feb 25, 2014, at 9:44 AM, Jean-Marie Poirier jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr wrote: Thank you Howard but Google is not completely up to point. I’m shocked — SHOCKED -- to hear it. At first sight but a bit more accurate than Google I hope ;-) ! Sorry, but there’s simply no way to improve on “the toilet was beautiful,” and Shakespeare himself would be envious of “taste the king for his compositions.” We’re dealing with great literature here. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
