[LUTE] Re: De Visee
Didn't Baron (In 'Study of the Lute' 1727) complain about the French who 'scratched' at their lutes. Does this imply that they played with nails? (I no longer have my copy of the Baron book, so I can't find the original quote, and I well could be mistaken). trj -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: De Visee Corbetta
Context matters, and this could indeed be a possible explanation of Ebert's addition to his text from 1723. But it seems clear that Corbetta had to pay his fellow musicians out of his own pocket first, regardless of whether he was subsequently compensated. So, if this were a myth, then at least it is based on a (rather ambiguous) historical report. Ebert: 'Every foreign musician who performed at court in Turin was given 500 Thaler.' Perhaps Madame Royale was kind enough to pay him his share. Strickly speaking, however, Corbetta's consort didn't perform there, and the story doesn't tell whether Corbetta received any compensation, in order to be able to pay them the lost income. What we don't know is whether this amount was intended to serve for the entire ensemble or whether it solely concerned his personal fee. In the first case he did not have too much to complain about. Except that he had crossed the Alps for nothing, and broke a nail. Lex -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Namens Monica Hall Verzonden: donderdag 9 mei 2019 09:58 Aan: r...@mh-freiburg.de; LuteList Onderwerp: [LUTE] Re: De Visee Corbetta Briefly - there were two editions of Ebert's book. In 1723 the account of Corbetta's visit ends Every foreign musician who performed at court in Turin was given 500 Thlr. and Madame Royale wished to show her generosity by not withholding anything from Corbetta. The rest of it occurs in the edition of 1724 and implies that Corbetta paid off his musicians, but after he complained Madame re-imbursed him. His obituary in Mercure Galante specifically refers to Madame's kindness to him in his last years. You need to consider all of the texts carefully before jumping to conclusions. Monica > On 08 May 2019 at 20:13 Ralf Mattes wrote: > > > > Am Mittwoch, 08. Mai 2019 20:00 CEST, Monica Hall > schrieb: > > >The relevant passage reads as follows. Feel free to correct the > >translation. > > > >Recently the world-famous guitarist, Corbetta, who taught all the > >Potentates of Europe, came here [to Turin] from England. But because > >he had the misfortune to break a fingernail (and with old folk these > >grow again very slowly) it was impossible for him to present himself at > >the festival with his consort, however much he wanted to. Every > >foreign musician who performed at court in Turin was given 500 Thlr. > >and Madame Royale wished to show her generosity by not withholding > >anything from Signor Corbetta . > > > >Corbetta complained bitterly that he had come from England with great > >difficulty, > > In this case I'd translate "Schaden" with "expenses", but that's a detail. > > > and because he had invited people from Italy to come there > >[to Turin] to play in consort on his guarantee, he had to pay them > >afterwards out of his own pocket. > > That's what I wrote - he had to pay them out of his own pocket. > You claimed: "Corbetta didn't have to pay his musicians out of his own pocket > - that's just another myth." > > Cheers, RalfD > > > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
On the other side [of the nail], we know that Corbetta used them. The influence of his playing, on a whole generation of guitarists (perhaps also including Robert de Visee), can hardly be overestimated. Therefore, it seems likely that, also in France, some used their nails when playing from the books available. And Visee may have been well aware of that. There is an another interesting on-line article on the nail subject, written by Gerard Rebours: http://g.rebours.free.fr/6E/6.With_or_without_nails.html Lex -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Namens Martyn Hodgson Verzonden: donderdag 9 mei 2019 08:49 Aan: maan7...@cs.dartmouth.edu; Lute List Onderwerp: [LUTE] Re: De Visee That's not the point being made. Which is that, even if some theorbo players employed nails (or didn't), we cannot draw the unequivocal conclusion that the period guitar was therefore also played with nails. And, in particular, that this was the practice that De Visee generally expected and followed himself Richard Sweeney, who uses nails, gives a reasonably even-handed account from some early sources in his blog available by pasting this into your search. https://richardsweeney.com/the-best-way-of-play/ MH On Wednesday, 8 May 2019, 14:35:21 BST, magnus andersson wrote: Do we have any evidence of any historical guitar or theorbo player who explicitly played without fingernails? Den onsdag, maj 8, 2019, 3:20 em, skrev Martyn Hodgson : Hear! hear!. And just because some theorbo players used nails by no means that De Visee did. This is, of course, how modern myths start Martyn On Wednesday, 8 May 2019, 11:09:58 BST, Monica Hall <[1]mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: Corbetta didn't have to pay his musicians out of his own pocket - that's just another myth. The relevant source states that Every foreign musician who performed at court in Turin was given 500 Thlr. and Madame Royale wished to show her generosity by not withholding anything [from Signor Corbetta]. Madame Royale was the mother of Victor Amadeus, the ruler of Savoy at the time when Corbetta visited the town to perform. We don't actually know whether De Visee played with his nails. Monica > On 07 May 2019 at 22:20 magnus andersson <[1][2]maan7...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: > > >Dear collective wisdom, >From what I have understood, it seems like manicure has been around >since at least 3200 BC, so I assume players like Piccinini, Corbetta >(who we know had >to cancel one of his concerts due to a broken nail- and still pay his >fellow musicians from his own pocket!) and perhaps de Visà ©e had found >a way for them to get it to work without shredding and tearing their >strings apart constantly, and - to quote Piccinini: > >"the one, and very important [thing] is to play neatly, and cleanly; In >the manner that all small touches of the string may be schietto, like >pearl[s]" >/Magnus > -- References 1. mailto:mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu 2. mailto:maan7...@cs.dartmouth.edu To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Newsletter fom TREE EDITION
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[LUTE] Re: De Visee Corbetta
Briefly - there were two editions of Ebert's book. In 1723 the account of Corbetta's visit ends Every foreign musician who performed at court in Turin was given 500 Thlr. and Madame Royale wished to show her generosity by not withholding anything from Corbetta. The rest of it occurs in the edition of 1724 and implies that Corbetta paid off his musicians, but after he complained Madame re-imbursed him. His obituary in Mercure Galante specifically refers to Madame's kindness to him in his last years. You need to consider all of the texts carefully before jumping to conclusions. Monica > On 08 May 2019 at 20:13 Ralf Mattes wrote: > > > > Am Mittwoch, 08. Mai 2019 20:00 CEST, Monica Hall > schrieb: > > >The relevant passage reads as follows. Feel free to correct the > >translation. > > > >Recently the world-famous guitarist, Corbetta, who taught all the > >Potentates of Europe, came here [to Turin] from England. But because > >he had the misfortune to break a fingernail (and with old folk these > >grow again very slowly) it was impossible for him to present himself at > >the festival with his consort, however much he wanted to. Every > >foreign musician who performed at court in Turin was given 500 Thlr. > >and Madame Royale wished to show her generosity by not withholding > >anything from Signor Corbetta . > > > >Corbetta complained bitterly that he had come from England with great > >difficulty, > > In this case I'd translate "Schaden" with "expenses", but that's a detail. > > > and because he had invited people from Italy to come there > >[to Turin] to play in consort on his guarantee, he had to pay them > >afterwards out of his own pocket. > > That's what I wrote - he had to pay them out of his own pocket. > You claimed: "Corbetta didn't have to pay his musicians out of his own pocket > - that's just another myth." > > Cheers, RalfD > > > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
That's not the point being made. Which is that, even if some theorbo players employed nails (or didn't), we cannot draw the unequivocal conclusion that the period guitar was therefore also played with nails. And, in particular, that this was the practice that De Visee generally expected and followed himself Richard Sweeney, who uses nails, gives a reasonably even-handed account from some early sources in his blog available by pasting this into your search. https://richardsweeney.com/the-best-way-of-play/ MH On Wednesday, 8 May 2019, 14:35:21 BST, magnus andersson wrote: Do we have any evidence of any historical guitar or theorbo player who explicitly played without fingernails? Den onsdag, maj 8, 2019, 3:20 em, skrev Martyn Hodgson : Hear! hear!. And just because some theorbo players used nails by no means that De Visee did. This is, of course, how modern myths start Martyn On Wednesday, 8 May 2019, 11:09:58 BST, Monica Hall <[1]mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: Corbetta didn't have to pay his musicians out of his own pocket - that's just another myth. The relevant source states that Every foreign musician who performed at court in Turin was given 500 Thlr. and Madame Royale wished to show her generosity by not withholding anything [from Signor Corbetta]. Madame Royale was the mother of Victor Amadeus, the ruler of Savoy at the time when Corbetta visited the town to perform. We don't actually know whether De Visee played with his nails. Monica > On 07 May 2019 at 22:20 magnus andersson <[1][2]maan7...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: > > >Dear collective wisdom, >From what I have understood, it seems like manicure has been around >since at least 3200 BC, so I assume players like Piccinini, Corbetta >(who we know had >to cancel one of his concerts due to a broken nail- and still pay his >fellow musicians from his own pocket!) and perhaps de Visà ©e had found >a way for them to get it to work without shredding and tearing their >strings apart constantly, and - to quote Piccinini: > >"the one, and very important [thing] is to play neatly, and cleanly; In >the manner that all small touches of the string may be schietto, like >pearl[s]" >/Magnus > -- References 1. mailto:mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu 2. mailto:maan7...@cs.dartmouth.edu To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
