[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments

[Matthew Daillie]

For those of you who are looking for help experimenting with meantone and other 
temperaments, David van Ooijen's webpage is a very good starting point:

https://davidvanooijen.wordpress.com/mean-tone-temperament-for-lute/

Best,
Matthew


Le 21 juil. 2019 à 17:34, David van Ooijen  a écrit :

>   The beauty of MT is that each key has it's own character. I've played
>   l'Orfeo 30 times. 30 Times in MT. I've lost count of the times I've
>   played Monteverdi's Maria Vespers (over one hundred times, anyway) all
>   in MT.
> 
>   David
> 
>   On Sun, 21 Jul 2019 at 17:21, <[1]r.turov...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> So - I took a quick look: l'Orfeo starts in C and goes through a, d,
> F, g, G, Bb, c and even f.
> A separate theorbo for each key change, I suppose!))
> RT
> 




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[LUTE] Re: Wishful thinking on lute temparaments was Re: Lute Temperaments

[Rainer]

On 22.07.2019 04:15, Jurgen Frenz wrote:

to my opinion it would be great if someone anyone would record an identical 
piece of renaissance music twice: once in equal temperament and once in a 
different tuning so that everybody can appreciate the difference.
Of course, one thing that nobody mentioned in this discussion is our 
"well-tempered" music that from early childhood onward has conditioned our 
hearing - Arab and Indian musicians hear those micro-intervals much better than we do 
because their everyday sonic environment contains them. I assume that in the 16th century 
European ears were differently trained than ours today and hence the music-playing public 
would hear those intervals that we judge to be of lesser importance. There is a 
hypothesis that monophonic non-western music survives with little changes precisely 
because of these subtle intervals that are charged with emotional expressiveness whereas 
our western harmonic equal 'temperamented' music ended its development around 1900 when 
all possibilities had been explored. - I do not know if we can improve our hearing so as 
to recognize the subtleties of non-equal temperament once we are older than 20 or so.
Whatever the case, it would be great to hear the difference in an example - it 
should be remarkable in a slower Dall'Aquila fantasia or something similar.

Best wishes
Jurgen


Go to

http://www.iupress.indiana.edu/product_info.php?products_id=807988

and press "Related Links".

I think there are other pages with vocal music in different tunings, but I 
cannot remember.

Rainer

PS

We had this discussion not very long ago and apparently nobody has changed his 
mind :(



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[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments

[Ron Andrico]

   Yes, Howard, I am very good at distilling complex ideas into concise
   terms, and I am tempted to stop at saying thanks for your laudatory
   statement, barbs and all.  But we dwell in an age that places far too
   much value on the shaping of public perceptions through subtle language
   via platforms such as ours, and it will not do to let your accusations
   stand without remarks.
   We all approach music from a different perspective and I value the
   insights and the musical skills of many performers who are and have
   been on the public stage for many years.  What I do not value is the
   manner in which various players claim authority by stating that their
   particular approach is the one true way.  And I do not value the manner
   in which a large helping of attitude has been foisted on the public by
   mavens of marketing in the pursuit of greater notoriety, and thus
   sales.
   As lutenists, players of ancient instruments that became outmoded for
   very good reasons, we do the historical research and eventually come to
   understand how the machine evolved and how it works best for each of us
   today as applied to our chosen repertory.  Martyn H pointed out, as I
   have in the past, that all this noise about temperaments really has to
   do with making keyboard instruments sound less bad in the pursuit of
   music that contains more intervallic spice as time and taste marched
   on.  There survive some historical discussions of lute fretting but the
   language is unclear or otherwise flawed.  A sideways application of
   modern interpretations of keyboard temperaments to the lute and fretted
   viol is a bit of an awkward stretch.
   As for the lute, the frets move.  Move them until the music sounds
   right.
   RA
 __

   From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu  on behalf
   of howard posner 
   Sent: Monday, July 22, 2019 2:01 AM
   To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments

   > On Jul 20, 2019, at 4:22 AM, Ron Andrico 
   wrote:
   >
   >  musicians who
   >   understand music and who explore the more interesting repertory for
   >   lute follow the precepts of Galilei, which approximates equal
   >   temperament.
   You just trashed most of the best musicians in early music, and,
   apparently, most of the best music, in a single sentence.  As a person
   who writes for a living, I can only admire your efficiency with words.
   To get on or off this list see list information at
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[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments

[Jean-Marie Poirier]

Ditto ! Thanks Ron !

Jean-Marie Poirier

> Le 22 juil. 2019 à 14:01, Ron Andrico  a écrit :
> 
>   Yes, Howard, I am very good at distilling complex ideas into concise
>   terms, and I am tempted to stop at saying thanks for your laudatory
>   statement, barbs and all.  But we dwell in an age that places far too
>   much value on the shaping of public perceptions through subtle language
>   via platforms such as ours, and it will not do to let your accusations
>   stand without remarks.
>   We all approach music from a different perspective and I value the
>   insights and the musical skills of many performers who are and have
>   been on the public stage for many years.  What I do not value is the
>   manner in which various players claim authority by stating that their
>   particular approach is the one true way.  And I do not value the manner
>   in which a large helping of attitude has been foisted on the public by
>   mavens of marketing in the pursuit of greater notoriety, and thus
>   sales.
>   As lutenists, players of ancient instruments that became outmoded for
>   very good reasons, we do the historical research and eventually come to
>   understand how the machine evolved and how it works best for each of us
>   today as applied to our chosen repertory.  Martyn H pointed out, as I
>   have in the past, that all this noise about temperaments really has to
>   do with making keyboard instruments sound less bad in the pursuit of
>   music that contains more intervallic spice as time and taste marched
>   on.  There survive some historical discussions of lute fretting but the
>   language is unclear or otherwise flawed.  A sideways application of
>   modern interpretations of keyboard temperaments to the lute and fretted
>   viol is a bit of an awkward stretch.
>   As for the lute, the frets move.  Move them until the music sounds
>   right.
>   RA
> __
> 
>   From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu  on behalf
>   of howard posner 
>   Sent: Monday, July 22, 2019 2:01 AM
>   To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 
>   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments
> 
>> On Jul 20, 2019, at 4:22 AM, Ron Andrico 
>   wrote:
>> 
>> musicians who
>>  understand music and who explore the more interesting repertory for
>>  lute follow the precepts of Galilei, which approximates equal
>>  temperament.
>   You just trashed most of the best musicians in early music, and,
>   apparently, most of the best music, in a single sentence.  As a person
>   who writes for a living, I can only admire your efficiency with words.
>   To get on or off this list see list information at
>   [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 
>   Virus-free. [2]www.avast.com
> 
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> 
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> 
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[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments

[David van Ooijen]

   Fixed fretted instrument had some sort of MT. Citerns with an
   approximation 1/6 comma MT come to mind. That's not a modern
   interpretation or an awkward stretch.

 >
 >on.   There survive some historical discussions of lute
 fretting but the
 >language is unclear or otherwise flawed.   A sideways
 application of
 >modern interpretations of keyboard temperaments to the lute and
 fretted
 >viol is a bit of an awkward stretch.

   --

   ***
   David van Ooijen
   [1]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
   [2]www.davidvanooijen.nl
   ***

   --

References

   1. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com
   2. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/


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[LUTE] Re: Bach and the lute

[Roland Hayes]

   I say "e."
   Get [1]Outlook for Android
 __

   From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu  on behalf
   of Mark Probert 
   Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2019 2:41:44 AM
   To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 
   Subject: [LUTE] Bach and the lute

   Hi all.
   At the risk of opening a can of worms, does anyone have any theories
   of why there are not more (any) works by J.S. for what was, arguably,
   the finest solo instrument of his day?  I can think of a few possible
   reasons:
   a. He wasn't paid to write for lute;
   b. Being an organ/keys/violin guy, he was unfamiliar with lute idiom
   and thought it better to stick to his knitting rather than have
   someone like SLW poo-poo him;
   c. Related to (b), there was no point when SLW was already doing what
   he was doing;
   d. He did write for the lute, it just got lost/burned/eaten by the
   family dog/etc.;
   e. Anything he wanted to say on the lute he could express on a keyboard
   so there was simply no need for him to go there.
   Or is this simply conjecture and best left to the existing "lute
   suites"
   to have the final word?
   Wonderingly
.. mark.
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[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments

[howard posner]

> On Jul 22, 2019, at 5:01 AM, Ron Andrico  wrote:
> 
>  I am very good at distilling complex ideas into concise terms . . .
> What I do not value is the manner in which various players claim authority by 
> stating that their particular approach is the one true way.  

But you’re the one who just wrote:

> musicians who
>  understand music and who explore the more interesting repertory for
>  lute follow the precepts of Galilei, which approximates equal
>  temperament.


If there’s a difference between “tuning according to the precepts of Vincentio 
Galilei is the one true way” and “musicians who don’t tune according to the 
precepts of Vincentio Galilei don’t understand music,” it’s a subtlety lost on 
someone who hasn’t your genius for distinguishing complex ideas from 
contradictory ones.








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[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments

[r . turovsky]

Citterns play in only 2 keys, and hardly ever with other instruments.
so it is not a problem there.
RT 


http://turovsky.org
Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes.

> On Jul 22, 2019, at 10:47 AM, David van Ooijen  
> wrote:
> 
>   Fixed fretted instrument had some sort of MT. Citerns with an
>   approximation 1/6 comma MT come to mind. That's not a modern
>   interpretation or an awkward stretch.
> 
>> 
>>   on.   There survive some historical discussions of lute
> fretting but the
>>   language is unclear or otherwise flawed.   A sideways
> application of
>>   modern interpretations of keyboard temperaments to the lute and
> fretted
>>   viol is a bit of an awkward stretch.
> 
>   --
> 
>   ***
>   David van Ooijen
>   [1]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
>   [2]www.davidvanooijen.nl
>   ***
> 
>   --
> 
> References
> 
>   1. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com
>   2. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments

[Tristan von Neumann]

I reckon that there's also different lutist temperaments.


Let's not use mean tone though :)


On 22.07.19 19:36, howard posner wrote:

On Jul 22, 2019, at 5:01 AM, Ron Andrico  wrote:

  I am very good at distilling complex ideas into concise terms . . .
What I do not value is the manner in which various players claim authority by 
stating that their particular approach is the one true way.

But you’re the one who just wrote:


musicians who
  understand music and who explore the more interesting repertory for
  lute follow the precepts of Galilei, which approximates equal
  temperament.


If there’s a difference between “tuning according to the precepts of Vincentio 
Galilei is the one true way” and “musicians who don’t tune according to the 
precepts of Vincentio Galilei don’t understand music,” it’s a subtlety lost on 
someone who hasn’t your genius for distinguishing complex ideas from 
contradictory ones.








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[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments

[Tristan von Neumann]

Hardly ever?...

In paintings, there's often other instruments...


And what about Orpharion? It also has fixed frets...



On 22.07.19 19:59, r.turov...@gmail.com wrote:

Citterns play in only 2 keys, and hardly ever with other instruments.
so it is not a problem there.
RT


http://turovsky.org
Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes.


On Jul 22, 2019, at 10:47 AM, David van Ooijen  wrote:

   Fixed fretted instrument had some sort of MT. Citerns with an
   approximation 1/6 comma MT come to mind. That's not a modern
   interpretation or an awkward stretch.


   on.   There survive some historical discussions of lute

 fretting but the

   language is unclear or otherwise flawed.   A sideways

 application of

   modern interpretations of keyboard temperaments to the lute and

 fretted

   viol is a bit of an awkward stretch.

   --

   ***
   David van Ooijen
   [1]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
   [2]www.davidvanooijen.nl
   ***

   --

References

   1. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com
   2. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/


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[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments

[David van Ooijen]

   Citterns play in broken consort with lutes. Been there, done that.
   Temperament, not to mention tuning, certainly is an issue.

   It's nice for members to speak out on subjects, it's even better when
   they do so on subjects they have some experience with.

   David

   On Mon, 22 Jul 2019 at 20:04, <[1]r.turov...@gmail.com> wrote:

 Citterns play in only 2 keys, and hardly ever with other
 instruments.
 so it is not a problem there.
 RT
 
 [2]http://turovsky.org
 Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes.
 > On Jul 22, 2019, at 10:47 AM, David van Ooijen
 <[3]davidvanooi...@gmail.com> wrote:
 >
 >Fixed fretted instrument had some sort of MT. Citerns with an
 >approximation 1/6 comma MT come to mind. That's not a modern
 >interpretation or an awkward stretch.
 >
 >>
 >>on.There survive some historical discussions of lute
 >  fretting but the
 >>language is unclear or otherwise flawed.A sideways
 >  application of
 >>modern interpretations of keyboard temperaments to the lute
 and
 >  fretted
 >>viol is a bit of an awkward stretch.
 >
 >--
 >
 >***
 >David van Ooijen
 >[1][4]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
 >[2][5]www.davidvanooijen.nl
 >***
 >
 >--
 >
 > References
 >
 >1. mailto:[6]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
 >2. [7]http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/
 >
 >
 > To get on or off this list see list information at
 > [8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

   ***
   David van Ooijen
   [9]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
   [10]www.davidvanooijen.nl
   ***

   --

References

   1. mailto:r.turov...@gmail.com
   2. http://turovsky.org/
   3. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com
   4. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com
   5. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/
   6. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com
   7. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/
   8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   9. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com
  10. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/

[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments

[tribioli]

   That's why I am usually quiet. Better say nothing and left the others
   with the doubt you are dumb than speak out and make them sure you are
   dumb indeed  :-):-)

    Messaggio originale 
   Da: David van Ooijen 
   Data: 22/07/19 20:13 (GMT+01:00)
   A:
   Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Oggetto: [LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments

  Citterns play in broken consort with lutes. Been there, done that.
  Temperament, not to mention tuning, certainly is an issue.
  It's nice for members to speak out on subjects, it's even better
   when
  they do so on subjects they have some experience with.
  David
  On Mon, 22 Jul 2019 at 20:04, <[1]r.turov...@gmail.com> wrote:
Citterns play in only 2 keys, and hardly ever with other
instruments.
so it is not a problem there.
RT

[2]http://turovsky.org
Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes.
> On Jul 22, 2019, at 10:47 AM, David van Ooijen
<[3]davidvanooi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>Fixed fretted instrument had some sort of MT. Citerns with an
>approximation 1/6 comma MT come to mind. That's not a modern
>interpretation or an awkward stretch.
>
>>
>>on.There survive some historical discussions of lute
>  fretting but the
>>language is unclear or otherwise flawed.A sideways
>  application of
>>modern interpretations of keyboard temperaments to the lute
and
>  fretted
>>viol is a bit of an awkward stretch.
>
>--
>
>***
>David van Ooijen
>[1][4]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
>[2][5]www.davidvanooijen.nl
>***
>
>--
>
> References
>
>1. mailto:[6]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
>2. [7]http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> [8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  --
  ***
  David van Ooijen
  [9]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
  [10]www.davidvanooijen.nl
  ***
  --
   References
  1. mailto:r.turov...@gmail.com
  2. http://turovsky.org/
  3. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com
  4. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com
  5. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/
  6. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com
  7. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/
  8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  9. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com
 10. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/

[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments

[Ron Andrico]

   Sorry Howard, but you employed a faulty syllogism contrived by altering
   and amending my words, a typical lawyerly device.  I did not state that
   following Galilei's precepts is the one true way.  I said that
   musicians who understand music and wish to explore the more interesting
   repertory temper their instrument according to Galilei's precepts.  I
   stand by my words as I originally stated.  No subtlety.  No spin.  Go
   back to work.
 __

   From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu  on behalf
   of howard posner 
   Sent: Monday, July 22, 2019 5:36 PM
   To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments

   > On Jul 22, 2019, at 5:01 AM, Ron Andrico 
   wrote:
   >
   >  I am very good at distilling complex ideas into concise terms . . .
   > What I do not value is the manner in which various players claim
   authority by stating that their particular approach is the one true
   way.
   But you’re the one who just wrote:
   > musicians who
   >  understand music and who explore the more interesting repertory for
   >  lute follow the precepts of Galilei, which approximates equal
   >  temperament.
   If there’s a difference between “tuning according to the precepts of
   Vincentio Galilei is the one true way” and “musicians who don’t tune
   according to the precepts of Vincentio Galilei don’t understand music,”
   it’s a subtlety lost on someone who hasn’t your genius for
   distinguishing complex ideas from contradictory ones.
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   Virus-free. [2]www.avast.com

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[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments

[Ron Andrico]

   David, citterns are strung with wire, which introduces alternative
   temperament issues and places them more in the class of a keyboard
   instrument.

   RA
 __

   From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu  on behalf
   of David van Ooijen 
   Sent: Monday, July 22, 2019 2:47 PM
   Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments

  Fixed fretted instrument had some sort of MT. Citerns with an
  approximation 1/6 comma MT come to mind. That's not a modern
  interpretation or an awkward stretch.
>
>on.   There survive some historical discussions of lute
fretting but the
>language is unclear or otherwise flawed.   A sideways
application of
>modern interpretations of keyboard temperaments to the lute
   and
fretted
>viol is a bit of an awkward stretch.
  --
  ***
  David van Ooijen
  [1]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
  [2]www.davidvanooijen.nl
  ***
  --
   References
  1. [1]mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com
  2. [2]http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/
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[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments

[David van Ooijen]

   My point was they were played in consort with lutes, which has
   consequences for the temperament of the lutes. Same is true for the
   wind and keyboard instruments in l'Orfeo or the Maria Vespers. Lutes
   are not solo instruments only, when they go out in the world and meet
   their fellow instruments, they'll have to adapt. Or play out of
   tune/temperament.

   David

   On Mon, 22 Jul 2019 at 21:34, Ron Andrico <[1]praelu...@hotmail.com>
   wrote:

   David, citterns are strung with wire, which introduces alternative
   temperament issues and places them more in the class of a keyboard
   instrument.
   RA
 __

   From: [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu <[3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu> on
   behalf of David van Ooijen <[4]davidvanooi...@gmail.com>
   Sent: Monday, July 22, 2019 2:47 PM
   Cc: [5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu <[6]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments

   Fixed fretted instrument had some sort of MT. Citerns with an
   approximation 1/6 comma MT come to mind. That's not a modern
   interpretation or an awkward stretch.
   >
   >   on. There survive some historical discussions of
   lute
   fretting but the
   >   language is unclear or otherwise flawed. A sideways
   application of
   >   modern interpretations of keyboard temperaments to the
   lute and
   fretted
   >   viol is a bit of an awkward stretch.
   --
   ***
   David van Ooijen
   [1][7]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
   [2][8]www.davidvanooijen.nl
   ***
   --
   References
   1. [9]mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com
   2. [10]http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [11]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   Virus-free. [12]www.avast.com

   --

   ***
   David van Ooijen
   [13]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
   [14]www.davidvanooijen.nl
   ***

   --

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[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments

[Matthew Daillie]

Citterns are keyboard instruments and metal strings introduce alternative 
temperament issues? Gosh, I am learning a lot of alternative facts at the 
moment.
Best,
Matthew



> On Jul 22, 2019, at 21:34, Ron Andrico  wrote:
> 
>   David, citterns are strung with wire, which introduces alternative
>   temperament issues and places them more in the class of a keyboard
>   instrument.
> 
>   RA
> __
> 
>   From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu  on behalf
>   of David van Ooijen 
>   Sent: Monday, July 22, 2019 2:47 PM
>   Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 
>   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments
> 
>  Fixed fretted instrument had some sort of MT. Citerns with an
>  approximation 1/6 comma MT come to mind. That's not a modern
>  interpretation or an awkward stretch.
>> 
>>   on.   There survive some historical discussions of lute
>fretting but the
>>   language is unclear or otherwise flawed.   A sideways
>application of
>>   modern interpretations of keyboard temperaments to the lute
>   and
>fretted
>>   viol is a bit of an awkward stretch.
>  --
>  ***
>  David van Ooijen
>  [1]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
>  [2]www.davidvanooijen.nl
>  ***
>  --
>   References
>  1. [1]mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com
>  2. [2]http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/
>   To get on or off this list see list information at
>   [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 
>   Virus-free. [4]www.avast.com
> 
>   --
> 
> References
> 
>   Visible links:
>   1. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com
>   2. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/
>   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>   4. 
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[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments

[Ron Andrico]

   Having played all manner of ensemble music, including cittern in
   consort, for upwards of forty years, yes, I agree.  And in such cases,
   lute players, who have more flexibility, must shove their moveable
   frets around to arrive at a reasonably tempered scale, hopefully using
   their ears.  It's even worse when a guitarist has to tune to a keyboard
   or an accordion in ensemble because that means open strings have to be
   altered.  The math is interesting but the ears are necessary.

   RA
 __

   From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu  on behalf
   of David van Ooijen 
   Sent: Monday, July 22, 2019 7:39 PM
   Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments

  My point was they were played in consort with lutes, which has
  consequences for the temperament of the lutes. Same is true for the
  wind and keyboard instruments in l'Orfeo or the Maria Vespers. Lutes
  are not solo instruments only, when they go out in the world and
   meet
  their fellow instruments, they'll have to adapt. Or play out of
  tune/temperament.
  David
  On Mon, 22 Jul 2019 at 21:34, Ron Andrico <[1]praelu...@hotmail.com>
  wrote:
  David, citterns are strung with wire, which introduces alternative
  temperament issues and places them more in the class of a keyboard
  instrument.
  RA
__
  From: [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu <[3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu> on
  behalf of David van Ooijen <[4]davidvanooi...@gmail.com>
  Sent: Monday, July 22, 2019 2:47 PM
  Cc: [5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu <[6]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
  Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments
  Fixed fretted instrument had some sort of MT. Citerns with an
  approximation 1/6 comma MT come to mind. That's not a modern
  interpretation or an awkward stretch.
  >
  >   on. There survive some historical discussions of
  lute
  fretting but the
  >   language is unclear or otherwise flawed. A
   sideways
  application of
  >   modern interpretations of keyboard temperaments to
   the
  lute and
  fretted
  >   viol is a bit of an awkward stretch.
  --
  ***
  David van Ooijen
  [1][7]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
  [2][8]www.davidvanooijen.nl
  ***
  --
  References
  1. [9]mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com
  2. [10]http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/
  To get on or off this list see list information at
  [11]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  Virus-free. [12]www.avast.com
  --
  ***
  David van Ooijen
  [13]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
  [14]www.davidvanooijen.nl
  ***
  --
   References
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[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments

[Andreas Schlegel]

I know: the citation is German. But any translation makes an interpretation and 
therefore it’s the best to give citations in the original language:

Praetorius 1619, Syntagma II, 156–157:
NB. Hierbey habe ich auch des Calvisii Meynung de Temperatura Instrumentorum 
uffzusetzen nicht unterlassen wollen.
Das ist gewiß (sagt er) wenn die Consonantiae sollen recht klingen, so 
müssen sie rein in ihren proportionibus stehen, und weder uberheufft noch 
geringer werden; Und dasselbige befindet sich also in voce humana, auch in 
Posaunen und in andern [Blasinstrumenten], welchen man mit menschlichem Athem 
etwas zugeben oder nemen kan. Denn vox humana [hier nicht das gleichnamige 
Orgelregister, sondern die menschliche Singstimme] lencket sich natürlich zu 
der rechten Proportion der Intervallorum, und legets ihnen zu, wo etwas 
mangeln, oder nimpt weg, wo was uberley seyn solte.
Auff den Instrumenten [besaitetete Tasteninstrumente] aber und Orgeln hat es 
eine andere Meynung, do seynd der Clavier gar zu wenig, darumb muß man allda 
etlichen Consonantiis etwas nemen, auff daß solches alles nicht auf einem 
Clave allein mangle. 

So we have at least two levels:
- pure intonation for all instruments which can be played in this manner (and 
independently from the tuning system of the keyboard instruments!)
- keyboard instruments (which have not enough keys to play all the pure 
intervals)

- the fretted instruments are not explicitly mentioned

Perhaps it’s just a modern idea that all instrument have to follow the tuning 
of the keyboard instruments. Perhaps it was just the contrary: All musicians, 
who were able, played / sung in pure tuning and the damned keyboard and fretted 
instruments have to play in the best possible compromise. 

The Renaissance of pure tuning, pythagorean and meantone tunings and all the 
temperaments was started by keyboard players. In consequence the keyboard is 
now the dominator of the scene or the rider, but as Praetorius clearly points 
out, in his time the keyboard was the horse. We changed the parts.

A very interesting book is:
Ortgies, Ibo: Die Praxis der Orgelstimmung in Norddeutschland im 17. und 18. 
Jahrhundert und ihr Verhältnis zur zeitgenössischen Musikpraxis, Diss. 
Göteborg: Göteborgs universitet, Dept. of Musicology and Film Studies, 2004, 
revidiert 2007. Link: 
https://sites.google.com/site/iboortgies/Ibo_Ortgies_PhDDiss_complete_IO01.pdf?attredirects=0
 


All the best

Andreas

> Am 22.07.2019 um 21:41 schrieb Matthew Daillie :
> 
> Citterns are keyboard instruments and metal strings introduce alternative 
> temperament issues? Gosh, I am learning a lot of alternative facts at the 
> moment.
> Best,
> Matthew
> 
> 
> 
>> On Jul 22, 2019, at 21:34, Ron Andrico  wrote:
>> 
>>  David, citterns are strung with wire, which introduces alternative
>>  temperament issues and places them more in the class of a keyboard
>>  instrument.
>> 
>>  RA
>>__
>> 
>>  From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu  on behalf
>>  of David van Ooijen 
>>  Sent: Monday, July 22, 2019 2:47 PM
>>  Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 
>>  Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments
>> 
>> Fixed fretted instrument had some sort of MT. Citerns with an
>> approximation 1/6 comma MT come to mind. That's not a modern
>> interpretation or an awkward stretch.
>>> 
>>>  on.   There survive some historical discussions of lute
>>   fretting but the
>>>  language is unclear or otherwise flawed.   A sideways
>>   application of
>>>  modern interpretations of keyboard temperaments to the lute
>>  and
>>   fretted
>>>  viol is a bit of an awkward stretch.
>> --
>> ***
>> David van Ooijen
>> [1]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
>> [2]www.davidvanooijen.nl
>> ***
>> --
>>  References
>> 1. [1]mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com
>> 2. [2]http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/
>>  To get on or off this list see list information at
>>  [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>> 
>>  Virus-free. [4]www.avast.com
>> 
>>  --
>> 
>> References
>> 
>>  Visible links:
>>  1. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com
>>  2. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/
>>  3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>  4. 
>> https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=link
>> 
>>  Hidden links:
>>  6. 
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>>  7. 
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> 
> 



--

[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments

[Matthew Daillie]

So you don't alter the tuning of the open strings on your lute when changing 
temperaments? No wonder you don't like meantone.

Best,
Matthew


> On Jul 22, 2019, at 21:55, Ron Andrico  wrote:
> 
> It's even worse when a guitarist has to tune to a keyboard or an accordion in 
> ensemble because that means open strings have to be altered.



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[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments

[howard posner]

I quoted your words so any reader could tell whether I was distorting your 
meaning.

And whatever I was doing, it wasn’t a “syllogism,” which is defined as "a form 
of reasoning in which a conclusion is drawn (whether validly or not) from two 
given or assumed propositions (premises), each of which shares a term with the 
conclusion, and shares a common or middle term not present in the conclusion”

for example:

All keyboard instruments have keys.
Citterns have no keys.
Therefore, citterns are "more in the class of a keyboard instrument.”

But you’re absolutely right: I need to go back to work.


> On Jul 22, 2019, at 12:32 PM, Ron Andrico  wrote:
> 
> Sorry Howard, but you employed a faulty syllogism contrived by altering and 
> amending my words, a typical lawyerly device.  I did not state that following 
> Galilei's precepts is the one true way.  I said that musicians who understand 
> music and wish to explore the more interesting repertory temper their 
> instrument according to Galilei's precepts.  I stand by my words as I 
> originally stated.  No subtlety.  No spin.  Go back to work.
> 
> From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu  on behalf of 
> howard posner 
> Sent: Monday, July 22, 2019 5:36 PM
> To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments
>  
> > On Jul 22, 2019, at 5:01 AM, Ron Andrico  wrote:
> > 
> >  I am very good at distilling complex ideas into concise terms . . .
> > What I do not value is the manner in which various players claim authority 
> > by stating that their particular approach is the one true way.  
> 
> But you’re the one who just wrote:
> 
> > musicians who
> >  understand music and who explore the more interesting repertory for
> >  lute follow the precepts of Galilei, which approximates equal
> >  temperament.
> 
> 
> If there’s a difference between “tuning according to the precepts of 
> Vincentio Galilei is the one true way” and “musicians who don’t tune 
> according to the precepts of Vincentio Galilei don’t understand music,” it’s 
> a subtlety lost on someone who hasn’t your genius for distinguishing complex 
> ideas from contradictory ones.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 
>   Virus-free. www.avast.com

[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments

[Leonard Williams]

   I'm coming late to the discussion; perhaps an interesting read for some
   of us would be Adam Wead's dissertation titled "Lute Tuning and
   Temperament in the Sixteenth and Seventeenth Centuries".   Here, I
   believe, is the link:
   https://scholarworks.iu.edu/dspace/bitstream/handle/2022/18424/Wead%2C%
   20Adam%20%28DM%20EMI%29.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y
   He compares several period methods of fret-setting, including Dowland
   (mistakes noted) and Gerle.
   Leonard Williams

   --


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[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments

[magnus andersson]

   Dear all,

   I hope I haven't missed anyone's mention of Bardi, but he apparently
   witnessed the problem discussed here

   âand more than once Iâve felt like laughing when I saw musicians
   struggling to put a lute or a viol into proper tune with a keyboard..."

   My own personal experience is that it can however work very well with
   mean tone tuning without tastini, but it requires some rethinking.
   Having different semitones on the on the first and forth frets can imo
   be very useful when playing basso continuo on the theorbo.

   Best,

   Magnus

   [1]Skickat från Yahoo Mail för iPhone

   Den måndag, juli 22, 2019, 10:30 em, skrev Leonard Williams
   :

 I'm coming late to the discussion; perhaps an interesting read for
   some

 of us would be Adam Wead's dissertation titled "Lute Tuning and

 Temperament in the Sixteenth and Seventeenth Centuries".  Here, I

 believe, is the link:


   [2]https://scholarworks.iu.edu/dspace/bitstream/handle/2022/18424/Wead%
   2C%

 20Adam%20%28DM%20EMI%29.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

 He compares several period methods of fret-setting, including Dowland

 (mistakes noted) and Gerle.

 Leonard Williams

 --

   To get on or off this list see list information at

   [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. https://overview.mail.yahoo.com/?.src=iOS
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   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments

[Tristan von Neumann]

There is, however, a solution to the problem:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0akGtDPVRxk

On 22.07.19 22:13, Andreas Schlegel wrote:

I know: the citation is German. But any translation makes an interpretation and 
therefore it’s the best to give citations in the original language:

Praetorius 1619, Syntagma II, 156–157:
NB. Hierbey habe ich auch des Calvisii Meynung de Temperatura Instrumentorum 
uffzusetzen nicht unterlassen wollen.
Das ist gewiß (sagt er) wenn die Consonantiae sollen recht klingen, so 
müssen sie rein in ihren proportionibus stehen, und weder uberheufft noch 
geringer werden; Und dasselbige befindet sich also in voce humana, auch in 
Posaunen und in andern [Blasinstrumenten], welchen man mit menschlichem Athem 
etwas zugeben oder nemen kan. Denn vox humana [hier nicht das gleichnamige 
Orgelregister, sondern die menschliche Singstimme] lencket sich natürlich zu 
der rechten Proportion der Intervallorum, und legets ihnen zu, wo etwas 
mangeln, oder nimpt weg, wo was uberley seyn solte.
Auff den Instrumenten [besaitetete Tasteninstrumente] aber und Orgeln hat es 
eine andere Meynung, do seynd der Clavier gar zu wenig, darumb muß man allda 
etlichen Consonantiis etwas nemen, auff daß solches alles nicht auf einem 
Clave allein mangle.

So we have at least two levels:
- pure intonation for all instruments which can be played in this manner (and 
independently from the tuning system of the keyboard instruments!)
- keyboard instruments (which have not enough keys to play all the pure 
intervals)

- the fretted instruments are not explicitly mentioned

Perhaps it’s just a modern idea that all instrument have to follow the tuning 
of the keyboard instruments. Perhaps it was just the contrary: All musicians, 
who were able, played / sung in pure tuning and the damned keyboard and fretted 
instruments have to play in the best possible compromise.

The Renaissance of pure tuning, pythagorean and meantone tunings and all the 
temperaments was started by keyboard players. In consequence the keyboard is 
now the dominator of the scene or the rider, but as Praetorius clearly points 
out, in his time the keyboard was the horse. We changed the parts.

A very interesting book is:
Ortgies, Ibo: Die Praxis der Orgelstimmung in Norddeutschland im 17. und 18. 
Jahrhundert und ihr Verhältnis zur zeitgenössischen Musikpraxis, Diss. Göteborg: 
Göteborgs universitet, Dept. of Musicology and Film Studies, 2004, revidiert 2007. 
Link: 
https://sites.google.com/site/iboortgies/Ibo_Ortgies_PhDDiss_complete_IO01.pdf?attredirects=0
 


All the best

Andreas


Am 22.07.2019 um 21:41 schrieb Matthew Daillie :

Citterns are keyboard instruments and metal strings introduce alternative 
temperament issues? Gosh, I am learning a lot of alternative facts at the 
moment.
Best,
Matthew




On Jul 22, 2019, at 21:34, Ron Andrico  wrote:

   David, citterns are strung with wire, which introduces alternative
   temperament issues and places them more in the class of a keyboard
   instrument.

   RA
 __

   From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu  on behalf
   of David van Ooijen 
   Sent: Monday, July 22, 2019 2:47 PM
   Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments

  Fixed fretted instrument had some sort of MT. Citerns with an
  approximation 1/6 comma MT come to mind. That's not a modern
  interpretation or an awkward stretch.

   on.   There survive some historical discussions of lute

fretting but the

   language is unclear or otherwise flawed.   A sideways

application of

   modern interpretations of keyboard temperaments to the lute

   and
fretted

   viol is a bit of an awkward stretch.

  --
  ***
  David van Ooijen
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  [2]www.davidvanooijen.nl
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[LUTE] Re: Wishful thinking on lute temparaments was Re: Lute Temperaments

[G. C.]

   Dear Rainer,
   when listening to Tarletone, which came in 4 versions, I have to say,
   that to my ears, they all sounded virtually the same, at least the 3 MT
   versions.
   For some reason, my ears prefered the equal temperament one, although I
   can't exactly say why. It felt more "crisp" if that says anything.
   My  + 60 year's hearing must probably be somewhat deteriorated, or
   heavily indoctrinated.
   Best wishes
   G.
   On Mon, Jul 22, 2019 at 11:49 AM Rainer <[1]rads.bera_g...@t-online.de>
   wrote:

 Go to
 [2]http://www.iupress.indiana.edu/product_info.php?products_id=80798
 8
 and press "Related Links".
 I think there are other pages with vocal music in different tunings,
 but I cannot remember.
 Rainer
 PS
 We had this discussion not very long ago and apparently nobody has
 changed his mind :(

   --

References

   1. mailto:rads.bera_g...@t-online.de
   2. http://www.iupress.indiana.edu/product_info.php?products_id=807988


To get on or off this list see list information at
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[LUTE] Re: Wishful thinking on lute temparaments was Re: Lute Temperaments

[howard posner]

You might go back and listen to the first F chord, the fourth note of the 
piece, in the quarter-comma tuning a few times, then listen to the same chord 
in any of the other meantone tunings.  It’s weird to the point of dissonance in 
the quarter-comma version, and very different from the others.  Indeed, if I 
heard it another context I’d assume it was just out of tune.

> On Jul 22, 2019, at 4:10 PM, G. C.  wrote:
> 
>   Dear Rainer,
>   when listening to Tarletone, which came in 4 versions, I have to say,
>   that to my ears, they all sounded virtually the same, at least the 3 MT
>   versions.
>   For some reason, my ears prefered the equal temperament one, although I
>   can't exactly say why. It felt more "crisp" if that says anything.
>   My  + 60 year's hearing must probably be somewhat deteriorated, or
>   heavily indoctrinated.
>   Best wishes
>   G.
>   On Mon, Jul 22, 2019 at 11:49 AM Rainer <[1]rads.bera_g...@t-online.de>
>   wrote:
> 
> Go to
> [2]http://www.iupress.indiana.edu/product_info.php?products_id=80798
> 8
> and press "Related Links".
> I think there are other pages with vocal music in different tunings,
> but I cannot remember.
> Rainer
> PS
> We had this discussion not very long ago and apparently nobody has
> changed his mind :(
> 
>   --
> 
> References
> 
>   1. mailto:rads.bera_g...@t-online.de
>   2. http://www.iupress.indiana.edu/product_info.php?products_id=807988
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Wishful thinking on lute temparaments was Re: Lute Temperaments

[G. C.]

   Dear Howard,
   thanks for the coaching, but I have to say, that I really couldn't hear
   any significant difference. Only with the equal tuning one, which was
   different from the MT ones and more appealing somehow.
   It's probably due to age :)
   Best wishes
   G
   On Tue, Jul 23, 2019 at 1:34 AM howard posner
   <[1]howardpos...@ca.rr.com> wrote:

 You might go back and listen to the first F chord, the fourth note
 of the piece, in the quarter-comma tuning a few times, then listen
 to the same chord in any of the other meantone tunings.   It's weird
 to the point of dissonance in the quarter-comma version, and very
 different from the others.   Indeed, if I heard it another context
 I'd assume it was just out of tune.
 > On Jul 22, 2019, at 4:10 PM, G. C. <[2]kalei...@gmail.com> wrote:
 >
 >Dear Rainer,
 >when listening to Tarletone, which came in 4 versions, I have
 to say,
 >that to my ears, they all sounded virtually the same, at least
 the 3 MT
 >versions.
 >For some reason, my ears prefered the equal temperament one,
 although I
 >can't exactly say why. It felt more "crisp" if that says
 anything.
 >My   + 60 year's hearing must probably be somewhat
 deteriorated, or
 >heavily indoctrinated.
 >Best wishes
 >G.
 >On Mon, Jul 22, 2019 at 11:49 AM Rainer
 <[1][3]rads.bera_g...@t-online.de>
 >wrote:
 >
 >  Go to
 >
 [2][4]http://www.iupress.indiana.edu/product_info.php?products_id=80
 798
 >  8
 >  and press "Related Links".
 >  I think there are other pages with vocal music in different
 tunings,
 >  but I cannot remember.
 >  Rainer
 >  PS
 >  We had this discussion not very long ago and apparently
 nobody has
 >  changed his mind :(
 >
 >--
 >
 > References
 >
 >1. mailto:[5]rads.bera_g...@t-online.de
 >2.
 [6]http://www.iupress.indiana.edu/product_info.php?products_id=80798
 8
 >
 >
 > To get on or off this list see list information at
 > [7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. mailto:howardpos...@ca.rr.com
   2. mailto:kalei...@gmail.com
   3. mailto:rads.bera_g...@t-online.de
   4. http://www.iupress.indiana.edu/product_info.php?products_id=80798
   5. mailto:rads.bera_g...@t-online.de
   6. http://www.iupress.indiana.edu/product_info.php?products_id=807988
   7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html