[LUTE] Re: Unison C string on 8c lutes
I think you will be surprised at how you will like the 5 th course in octaves. Good luck! Sent from my iPhone On Nov 23, 2019, at 12:34 PM, Jurgen Frenz wrote:  Hello Edward, thank you very much, I feel encouraged now to "go octaves" all the way down from 5th. course.I should consider myself stupid that I hesitated, because who is there to judge me apart from myself. I am not competing in any academic exercise :-) Thank you very much again, gut is cost-wise prohibitive to me. Best regards Jurgen -- "Close your eyes. Fall in love. Stay there." JalÄl ad-DÄ«n Muhammad Rumi âââââââ Original Message âââââââ On Saturday, November 23, 2019 9:16 PM, Edward Martin wrote: Hello Jurgen, I agree that in with 8-course lutes, they do tend to not sound as brilliant as with octaves. Of course, it is a compromise, but on my 8-course lute, I have octaves on 5,6,7, & 8 and like it very much. Whatever brand of strings you try, I think you will like the 5th course in octaves, as it brightens up the sound. I do not see it as confusing the voices as you say, but adding to the richness and complexity of the sound. Another thing that could very much improve the sound is to use gut. If you do not want gut, at least consider using gut for octaves. On Sat, Nov 23, 2019 at 6:19 AM Jurgen Frenz <[1]eye-and-ear-cont...@protonmail.com> wrote: Hello there, I have an 8c lute now since 10 months and from the beginning I'm "unhappy" with the sound of the unison C strings on it. I changed the plain Aquila strings to round-wound Aquilas but to me it sounds quite the same. What I'm missing is the high frequencies that we have on 6c instruments with the octave string. In my mind I call the current sound "plastic-y". The maker of the instrument suggested to try out the Savarez early music strings but I do not think I would recover high frequencies with them. Any remedies that you have tried out with success other than "just get used to it"? An octave string shouldn't be a good idea because it would confuse voices. Hoping for some suggestions, Jurgen -- "Close your eyes. Fall in love. Stay there." JalÃl ad-Dà �n Muhammad Rumi To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:eye-and-ear-cont...@protonmail.com 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Unison C string on 8c lutes
You could try Aquila CD strings or (as you were considering) Savarez PVF. Best, Matthew On 23 nov. 2019, at 13:17, Jurgen Frenz wrote: > Hello there, > > I have an 8c lute now since 10 months and from the beginning I'm > "unhappy" with the sound of the unison C strings on it. I changed the > plain Aquila strings to round-wound Aquilas but to me it sounds quite > the same. What I'm missing is the high frequencies that we have on 6c > instruments with the octave string. In my mind I call the current sound > "plastic-y". The maker of the instrument suggested to try out the > Savarez early music strings but I do not think I would recover high > frequencies with them. > > Any remedies that you have tried out with success other than "just get > used to it"? An octave string shouldn't be a good idea because it would > confuse voices. > > Hoping for some suggestions, > Jurgen > > -- > "Close your eyes. Fall in love. Stay there." > > JalÄl ad-DÄ«n Muhammad Rumi > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Unison C string on 8c lutes
Hello Edward, thank you very much, I feel encouraged now to "go octaves" all the way down from 5th. course.I should consider myself stupid that I hesitated, because who is there to judge me apart from myself. I am not competing in any academic exercise :-) Thank you very much again, gut is cost-wise prohibitive to me. Best regards Jurgen -- "Close your eyes. Fall in love. Stay there." JalÃl ad-Dën Muhammad Rumi âââââââ Original Message âââââââ On Saturday, November 23, 2019 9:16 PM, Edward Martin wrote: Hello Jurgen, I agree that in with 8-course lutes, they do tend to not sound as brilliant as with octaves. Of course, it is a compromise, but on my 8-course lute, I have octaves on 5,6,7, & 8 and like it very much. Whatever brand of strings you try, I think you will like the 5th course in octaves, as it brightens up the sound. I do not see it as confusing the voices as you say, but adding to the richness and complexity of the sound. Another thing that could very much improve the sound is to use gut. If you do not want gut, at least consider using gut for octaves. On Sat, Nov 23, 2019 at 6:19 AM Jurgen Frenz <[1]eye-and-ear-cont...@protonmail.com> wrote: Hello there, I have an 8c lute now since 10 months and from the beginning I'm "unhappy" with the sound of the unison C strings on it. I changed the plain Aquila strings to round-wound Aquilas but to me it sounds quite the same. What I'm missing is the high frequencies that we have on 6c instruments with the octave string. In my mind I call the current sound "plastic-y". The maker of the instrument suggested to try out the Savarez early music strings but I do not think I would recover high frequencies with them. Any remedies that you have tried out with success other than "just get used to it"? An octave string shouldn't be a good idea because it would confuse voices. Hoping for some suggestions, Jurgen -- "Close your eyes. Fall in love. Stay there." JalÃl ad-DÃën Muhammad Rumi To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html References 1. mailto:eye-and-ear-cont...@protonmail.com 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: fonts and replies
Thanks Wayne. I thought it was something like this but couldn't quite remember. The business of blank lines: do you mean a soace between paragraphs (which doesn't seem to produce a space when transmitted) or --- actually typing in a line as I've just done here? regards Martyn On Saturday, 23 November 2019, 14:53:50 GMT, wayne lute wrote: Hi Martyn The lute list converts all text to plain text. No fonts, no font sizes, no colors, and some non-North-American letters get garbled. This is done while removing any possible viruses from the message. It is also because in the past HTML formatted messages confused many people. If you want to keep your message clear I recommend that firstly you delete any text that isn't relevant. This is important as otherwise a person can get confused reading the message with replies. Many people are too lazy to clean up their messages. Secondly I recommend that you separate thoughts and paragraphs with a blank line. The blank lines between paragraphs will stay with most mail readers. When you reply to a message, that message has been formatted by the list robot, by the original senders email program, and by your program. As your conversation goes back and forth these three processes interact in strange ways and add more and more layers to the message. So it really helps if you take the time to clean up the formatting and delete unnecessary text each time you reply. I know this interferes with the feeling of being in the moment which is so important to computer gamers, but it makes the results a lot more readable. Wayne To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] fonts and replies
Hi Martyn The lute list converts all text to plain text. No fonts, no font sizes, no colors, and some non-North-American letters get garbled. This is done while removing any possible viruses from the message. It is also because in the past HTML formatted messages confused many people. If you want to keep your message clear I recommend that firstly you delete any text that isn’t relevant. This is important as otherwise a person can get confused reading the message with replies. Many people are too lazy to clean up their messages. Secondly I recommend that you separate thoughts and paragraphs with a blank line. The blank lines between paragraphs will stay with most mail readers. When you reply to a message, that message has been formatted by the list robot, by the original senders email program, and by your program. As your conversation goes back and forth these three processes interact in strange ways and add more and more layers to the message. So it really helps if you take the time to clean up the formatting and delete unnecessary text each time you reply. I know this interferes with the feeling of being in the moment which is so important to computer gamers, but it makes the results a lot more readable. Wayne To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Unison C string on 8c lutes
Hello Jurgen, I agree that in with 8-course lutes, they do tend to not sound as brilliant as with octaves. Of course, it is a compromise, but on my 8-course lute, I have octaves on 5,6,7, & 8 and like it very much. Whatever brand of strings you try, I think you will like the 5th course in octaves, as it brightens up the sound. I do not see it as confusing the voices as you say, but adding to the richness and complexity of the sound. Another thing that could very much improve the sound is to use gut. If you do not want gut, at least consider using gut for octaves. On Sat, Nov 23, 2019 at 6:19 AM Jurgen Frenz <[1]eye-and-ear-cont...@protonmail.com> wrote: Hello there, I have an 8c lute now since 10 months and from the beginning I'm "unhappy" with the sound of the unison C strings on it. I changed the plain Aquila strings to round-wound Aquilas but to me it sounds quite the same. What I'm missing is the high frequencies that we have on 6c instruments with the octave string. In my mind I call the current sound "plastic-y". The maker of the instrument suggested to try out the Savarez early music strings but I do not think I would recover high frequencies with them. Any remedies that you have tried out with success other than "just get used to it"? An octave string shouldn't be a good idea because it would confuse voices. Hoping for some suggestions, Jurgen -- "Close your eyes. Fall in love. Stay there." JalÃl ad-Dà «n Muhammad Rumi To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:eye-and-ear-cont...@protonmail.com 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Calchedon strnging was Re: Mandora/Gallichon website
6 course spanish guitar wound strings: yes, there is a spanish source that is Juan Vargas Y Guzman of 1773 that mentioned that this instrument has wound strings in the 4th, 5th and 6th courses (i.e. entorchados). It is not sauid that are silk wound but we are in 1773, when the silk strings were well introduced on the 6 course mandolin, on the 5 course/5 single string guitar, on the very recent 6 string guitar. It is written that the tickness of the 4th is 2/3 thick than the 2nd that it is plain gut. The 3rd has the same gauge of a violin 2nd (in those times around .90-95 mm gauge) Two years ago I had the chance to take the measures of a big batch of survived original strings for 6 course Paget guitar inside a newspaper dated 1812 in Genevre: the 3rd ranged form .91 up to .97 mm while the 4,5,6 were silk wound strings. Well, I have done a replica of these wound strings: the 5 and 6th are exaclty the ones for the 4,5th basses of 6 string guitar. The same strings 4 and 5 were perfexct for a Niggel Gallichion like 5th and 6th. The tension was around 3.6 Kg at 415 Hz pitch standard. This is my experience. In the painting of the link I sent you and in the list strings 5 and 6 are wound ansds with octaves. Silk wound I think Mimmo -Messaggio originale- Da: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu Per conto di Martyn Hodgson Inviato: sabato 23 novembre 2019 13:10 A: Lute List ; Mimmo - Aquila Corde Armoniche ; Wayne Lute ; Wayne Cripps Oggetto: [LUTE] Re: Calchedon strnging was Re: Mandora/Gallichon website Ah - interpolation in bold doesn't seem to work here so I'll cut and paste below. (To Wayne - I think you've explained this before so excuse me for being a bit dim: but can't the original paragraph spacings and even font types be preserved in these threads? - it makes it so much easier to converse) MP: why between 1670 were mentioned gut wound strings only / MH: I believe lutenists (then as now) preferred something closer to plain (high twist) gut than a robust overwound sound even well into the eighteenth century (too much 'zing' and carry over of diatonic basses, etc otherwise) and, of course, the relatively very thin diameter of wire required for thin double strung courses may have also precluded low tension lute basses to some extent. The madora/gallichon does not have this register of basses. MP The 6 course spanish guitar is a good example: it employed silk wound strings / Indeed, from when? Do we know? I've assumed wound basses they came in with the Spanish sixth course around 1760/70 but have no direct evidence for such an date./ MH Mace mentions the Dm tuning and even gives a set of Lessons in it MM 181-186 Playford: I wonder how many in Europe were aware of this book./ MH I wonder too - but perhaps Playford was following a new technology only recently imported from Europe? The Commonwealth etc reduced many continental links until just after the Interregnum. The St Colombe use of viol wound also seems fairly persuasive. MH Yes, I agree the links between late mandora and late 5 eighteenth century 5/6 course guitars suggests a degree of interchange of knowledge/experience by players (S Moliotor's notes about some Viennese mandora player stringing his instrument with single strings are particularly compelling). However I am not close to the idea of silk wound strings but having more historical evidences/ MH Yes - I again agree On Saturday, 23 November 2019, 11:47:30 GMT, Martyn Hodgson wrote: And thank you too Mimmo, I'll interpolate my responses in bold italic below if I may regards Martyn On Saturday, 23 November 2019, 11:05:18 GMT, Mimmo - Aquila Corde Armoniche <[1]mperu...@aquilacorde.com> wrote: Grazie Martyn, However I have the necessity to have historical evidences about the evidence of the use of silk wound strings Yes; silk wound strings are louder so I wonder: why between 1670 were mentioned gut wound strings only (on d minor 11 course german lutes -see the 1715 source and others recently discovererd by me- then for 5 course guitar)? MH: I believe lutenists (then as now) preferred something closer to plain (high twist) gut than a robust overwound sound even well into the eighteenth century (too much 'zing' and carry over of diatonic basses, etc otherwise) and, of course, the relatively very thin diameter of wire required for thin double strung courses may have also precluded low tension lute basses to some extent. The madora/gallichon does not have this register of basses. Close or open wound types does not matter now. Maybe there is a technical explanation: I have done very extensive tests with silk wound strings for the 11 and 13 course d minor lute basses:
[LUTE] Unison C string on 8c lutes
Hello there, I have an 8c lute now since 10 months and from the beginning I'm "unhappy" with the sound of the unison C strings on it. I changed the plain Aquila strings to round-wound Aquilas but to me it sounds quite the same. What I'm missing is the high frequencies that we have on 6c instruments with the octave string. In my mind I call the current sound "plastic-y". The maker of the instrument suggested to try out the Savarez early music strings but I do not think I would recover high frequencies with them. Any remedies that you have tried out with success other than "just get used to it"? An octave string shouldn't be a good idea because it would confuse voices. Hoping for some suggestions, Jurgen -- "Close your eyes. Fall in love. Stay there." JalÃl ad-Dën Muhammad Rumi To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Calchedon strnging was Re: Mandora/Gallichon website
Ah - interpolation in bold doesn't seem to work here so I'll cut and paste below. (To Wayne - I think you've explained this before so excuse me for being a bit dim: but can't the original paragraph spacings and even font types be preserved in these threads? - it makes it so much easier to converse) MP: why between 1670 were mentioned gut wound strings only / MH: I believe lutenists (then as now) preferred something closer to plain (high twist) gut than a robust overwound sound even well into the eighteenth century (too much 'zing' and carry over of diatonic basses, etc otherwise) and, of course, the relatively very thin diameter of wire required for thin double strung courses may have also precluded low tension lute basses to some extent. The madora/gallichon does not have this register of basses. MP The 6 course spanish guitar is a good example: it employed silk wound strings / Indeed, from when? Do we know? I've assumed wound basses they came in with the Spanish sixth course around 1760/70 but have no direct evidence for such an date./ MH Mace mentions the Dm tuning and even gives a set of Lessons in it MM 181-186 Playford: I wonder how many in Europe were aware of this book./ MH I wonder too - but perhaps Playford was following a new technology only recently imported from Europe? The Commonwealth etc reduced many continental links until just after the Interregnum. The St Colombe use of viol wound also seems fairly persuasive. MH Yes, I agree the links between late mandora and late 5 eighteenth century 5/6 course guitars suggests a degree of interchange of knowledge/experience by players (S Moliotor's notes about some Viennese mandora player stringing his instrument with single strings are particularly compelling). However I am not close to the idea of silk wound strings but having more historical evidences/ MH Yes - I again agree On Saturday, 23 November 2019, 11:47:30 GMT, Martyn Hodgson wrote: And thank you too Mimmo, I'll interpolate my responses in bold italic below if I may regards Martyn On Saturday, 23 November 2019, 11:05:18 GMT, Mimmo - Aquila Corde Armoniche <[1]mperu...@aquilacorde.com> wrote: Grazie Martyn, However I have the necessity to have historical evidences about the evidence of the use of silk wound strings Yes; silk wound strings are louder so I wonder: why between 1670 were mentioned gut wound strings only (on d minor 11 course german lutes -see the 1715 source and others recently discovererd by me- then for 5 course guitar)? MH: I believe lutenists (then as now) preferred something closer to plain (high twist) gut than a robust overwound sound even well into the eighteenth century (too much 'zing' and carry over of diatonic basses, etc otherwise) and, of course, the relatively very thin diameter of wire required for thin double strung courses may have also precluded low tension lute basses to some extent. The madora/gallichon does not have this register of basses. Close or open wound types does not matter now. Maybe there is a technical explanation: I have done very extensive tests with silk wound strings for the 11 and 13 course d minor lute basses: they does not work properly (I have not space here to explain why, but there are strong both acoustical and technical problems that cannot be solved) while they work in excellent way in different situations, expecially if there are single strings and/or if the tension has a certain higher level like I thinks that it was in use on these kind of instruments (no historical evidences, just my opinion having seen the presence of fan bracing, the thick soundboards on some surviving in strument and the description of the loud bass sonority found in old sources). The 6 course spanish guitar is a good example: it employed silk wound strings Indeed, from when? Do we know? I've assumed wound basses they came in with the Spanish sixth course around 1760/70 but have no direct evidence for such an date. Mace is the best source ever in matter of lute strings and Talbot is still today one of the best source of the very begginning od the XVIII c. but there is a but: they are both english. I do not thinks/remember if this intrument was in use also in England: maybe Mace & Talbot were not aware of the existence of this type of instrument? Who know. They do not mentioned for example the d minor lutes and the 5 course guitars Mace mentions the Dm tuning and even gives a set of Lessons in it MM 181-186 Playford: I wonder how many in Europe were aware of this book. I wonder too - but perhaps Playford was
[LUTE] Re: Calchedon strnging was Re: Mandora/Gallichon website
And thank you too Mimmo, I'll interpolate my responses in bold italic below if I may regards Martyn On Saturday, 23 November 2019, 11:05:18 GMT, Mimmo - Aquila Corde Armoniche wrote: Grazie Martyn, However I have the necessity to have historical evidences about the evidence of the use of silk wound strings Yes; silk wound strings are louder so I wonder: why between 1670 were mentioned gut wound strings only (on d minor 11 course german lutes -see the 1715 source and others recently discovererd by me- then for 5 course guitar)? MH: I believe lutenists (then as now) preferred something closer to plain (high twist) gut than a robust overwound sound even well into the eighteenth century (too much 'zing' and carry over of diatonic basses, etc otherwise) and, of course, the relatively very thin diameter of wire required for thin double strung courses may have also precluded low tension lute basses to some extent. The madora/gallichon does not have this register of basses. Close or open wound types does not matter now. Maybe there is a technical explanation: I have done very extensive tests with silk wound strings for the 11 and 13 course d minor lute basses: they does not work properly (I have not space here to explain why, but there are strong both acoustical and technical problems that cannot be solved) while they work in excellent way in different situations, expecially if there are single strings and/or if the tension has a certain higher level like I thinks that it was in use on these kind of instruments (no historical evidences, just my opinion having seen the presence of fan bracing, the thick soundboards on some surviving in strument and the description of the loud bass sonority found in old sources). The 6 course spanish guitar is a good example: it employed silk wound strings Indeed, from when? Do we know? I've assumed wound basses they came in with the Spanish sixth course around 1760/70 but have no direct evidence for such an date. Mace is the best source ever in matter of lute strings and Talbot is still today one of the best source of the very begginning od the XVIII c. but there is a but: they are both english. I do not thinks/remember if this intrument was in use also in England: maybe Mace & Talbot were not aware of the existence of this type of instrument? Who know. They do not mentioned for example the d minor lutes and the 5 course guitars Mace mentions the Dm tuning and even gives a set of Lessons in it MM 181-186 Playford: I wonder how many in Europe were aware of this book. I wonder too - but perhaps Playford was following a new technology only recently imported from Europe? The Commonwealth etc reduced many continental links until just after the Interregnum. The St Colombe use of viol wound also seems fairly persuasive. Facts are facts and the evidence of wound strings realized gut cores for the 11 course lutes & guitars is compelling. The 1760 guitar sources are here very clear: when they describes for the first time silk wound strings they explained the things in a way that is clear that they are introducing something of new and better. Yes, I agree the links between late mandora and late 5 eighteenth century 5/6 course guitars suggests a degree of interchange of knowledge/experience by players (S Moliotor's notes about some Viennese mandora player stringing his instrument with single strings are particularly compelling). However I am not close to the idea of silk wound strings but having more historical evidences Yes - I again agree Thanks for the contribute. Ciao regards Martyn Da: Martyn Hodgson Inviato: sabato 23 novembre 2019 11:20 A: Lute List ; Mimmo - Aquila Corde Armoniche Oggetto: Re: R: [LUTE] Calchedon strnging was Re: Mandora/Gallichon website Thanks Mimmo, Regarding silk cores for overwound strings, I agree that they are louder and more focused than those with just plain gut cores. However, whilst Mace and Talbot don't mention such strings, I see no reason to doubt the accuracy of the well known comment by Playford (a very significant and well established publisher and promoter) that wound strings on silk cores were known, and indeed preferred, at the time. And so if in England, which had just undergone revolutionary wars etc, how much more in continental Europe and in particular areas with a history of fine wire drawing and string manufacture. In short, I see no reason to suppose that overwound strings (and those on silk too) were not becoming known in many parts of Europe by the second half of the seventeenth century (for such instruments as the calchedon as while as the bass viol). But, as we agree, more work is clearly required Finally, it is relevant that the large continuo
[LUTE] Re: Calchedon strnging was Re: Mandora/Gallichon website
Grazie Martyn, However I have the necessity to have historical evidences about the evidence of the use of silk wound strings Yes; silk wound strings are louder so I wonder: why between 1670 were mentioned gut wound strings only (on d minor 11 course german lutes -see the 1715 source and others recently discovererd by me- then for 5 course guitar)? Close or open wound types does not matter now. Maybe there is a technical explanation: I have done very extensive tests with silk wound strings for the 11 and 13 course d minor lute basses: they does not work properly (I have not space here to explain why, but there are strong both acoustical and technical problems that cannot be solved) while they work in excellent way in different situations, expecially if there are single strings and/or if the tension has a certain higher level like I thinks that it was in use on these kind of instruments (no historical evidences, just my opinion having seen the presence of fan bracing, the thick soundboards on some surviving in strument and the description of the loud bass sonority found in old sources). The 6 course spanish guitar is a good example: it employed silk wound strings Mace is the best source ever in matter of lute strings and Talbot is still today one of the best source of the very begginning od the XVIII c. but there is a but: they are both english. I do not thinks/remember if this intrument was in use also in England: maybe Mace & Talbot were not aware of the existence of this type of instrument? Who know. They do not mentioned for example the d minor lutes and the 5 course guitars. Playford: I wonder how many in Europe were aware of this book. Facts are facts and the evidence of wound strings realized gut cores for the 11 course lutes & guitars is compelling. The 1760 guitar sources are here very clear: when they describes for the first time silk wound strings they explained the things in a way that is clear that they are introducing something of new and better. However I am not close to the idea of silk wound strings but having more historical evidences Thanks for the contribute. Ciao Da: Martyn Hodgson Inviato: sabato 23 novembre 2019 11:20 A: Lute List ; Mimmo - Aquila Corde Armoniche Oggetto: Re: R: [LUTE] Calchedon strnging was Re: Mandora/Gallichon website Thanks Mimmo, Regarding silk cores for overwound strings, I agree that they are louder and more focused than those with just plain gut cores. However, whilst Mace and Talbot don't mention such strings, I see no reason to doubt the accuracy of the well known comment by Playford (a very significant and well established publisher and promoter) that wound strings on silk cores were known, and indeed preferred, at the time. And so if in England, which had just undergone revolutionary wars etc, how much more in continental Europe and in particular areas with a history of fine wire drawing and string manufacture. In short, I see no reason to suppose that overwound strings (and those on silk too) were not becoming known in many parts of Europe by the second half of the seventeenth century (for such instruments as the calchedon as while as the bass viol). But, as we agree, more work is clearly required Finally, it is relevant that the large continuo calchedon seems to have often (generally?) employed single strings: so the diameter of overwinding wire can be quite substantial (as on the large bass viol employed by Staine Colombe et als at around this time). regards, Martyn On Saturday, 23 November 2019, 09:43:48 GMT, Mimmo - Aquila Corde Armoniche <[1]mperu...@aquilacorde.com> wrote: Hi Martyn, thank you very much to inform me in matter. The open question about this instrument is still today not totally solved. So, I am doing my job concerning the strings only around the instrument that was in use in Germany around 1740-90 with 6 course (Niggel types) or even more (for example Wenger models). I agree with you that a such instrument sould be quite loud and competitive to the 7 bass viol (there are some historical sources that mention this thing). The problem is all round the use of the overspan strings, but only those thatb employ silk in the cores (those with gut cores are less loud) But the first mention of silk cores (5 course guitars come form Guerrero (Spain 1760's) who wrote that in Spain they use wound silk wound strings because they are louder than the traditional wound strings with gut cores. Then there is Corrette that suggest the use of silk cores. At today the only mention od possible silk cores come form John Playford in 1664 but Both T Mace and Talbot do not mentioned them at all. Need more investigations Ciao Mimmo Da:
[LUTE] Re: Calchedon strnging was Re: Mandora/Gallichon website
Thanks Mimmo, Regarding silk cores for overwound strings, I agree that they are louder and more focused than those with just plain gut cores. However, whilst Mace and Talbot don't mention such strings, I see no reason to doubt the accuracy of the well known comment by Playford (a very significant and well established publisher and promoter) that wound strings on silk cores were known, and indeed preferred, at the time. And so if in England, which had just undergone revolutionary wars etc, how much more in continental Europe and in particular areas with a history of fine wire drawing and string manufacture. In short, I see no reason to suppose that overwound strings (and those on silk too) were not becoming known in many parts of Europe by the second half of the seventeenth century (for such instruments as the calchedon as while as the bass viol). But, as we agree, more work is clearly required Finally, it is relevant that the large continuo calchedon seems to have often (generally?) employed single strings: so the diameter of overwinding wire can be quite substantial (as on the large bass viol employed by Staine Colombe et als at around this time). regards, Martyn On Saturday, 23 November 2019, 09:43:48 GMT, Mimmo - Aquila Corde Armoniche wrote: Hi Martyn, thank you very much to inform me in matter. The open question about this instrument is still today not totally solved. So, I am doing my job concerning the strings only around the instrument that was in use in Germany around 1740-90 with 6 course (Niggel types) or even more (for example Wenger models). I agree with you that a such instrument sould be quite loud and competitive to the 7 bass viol (there are some historical sources that mention this thing). The problem is all round the use of the overspan strings, but only those thatb employ silk in the cores (those with gut cores are less loud) But the first mention of silk cores (5 course guitars come form Guerrero (Spain 1760's) who wrote that in Spain they use wound silk wound strings because they are louder than the traditional wound strings with gut cores. Then there is Corrette that suggest the use of silk cores. At today the only mention od possible silk cores come form John Playford in 1664 but Both T Mace and Talbot do not mentioned them at all. Need more investigations Ciao Mimmo Da: Martyn Hodgson Inviato: sabato 23 novembre 2019 10:31 A: Mimmo - Aquila Corde Armoniche ; Lute List Oggetto: Fw: [LUTE] Calchedon strnging was Re: Mandora/Gallichon website Dear Mimmo, Sorry, in my earlier I gave the wrong year for the Edlinger calchedon: - it should be 1728 not 1729 (the latter is the year Edlinger died). The instrument is part of the collection in the Narodnì Museum, Prague. Here's a link to a Czech language magazine site with a pic. [1]https://www.google.com/url?sa=i=images==2ahUKEwi4ydqF- __lAhWu34UKHXUXBB0QjRx6BAgBEAQ=http%3A%2F%2Fhudebnirozhledy.scena.c z%2Fwww%2Findex.php%3Fpage%3Dclanek%26id_clanku%3D2519=AOvVaw3UC3U L_IcQLJPxLR8YZdod=1574585668331802 regards Martyn - Forwarded message - From: Martyn Hodgson <[2]hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> To: Braig, Eugene <[3]brai...@osu.edu>; [4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu <[5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>; Mimmo - Aquila Corde Armoniche <[6]mperu...@aquilacorde.com> Sent: Friday, 22 November 2019, 12:34:24 GMT Subject: [LUTE] Calchedon strnging was Re: Mandora/Gallichon website Hello Mimmo, By coincidence I've also been developing a paper on early gallichon stringing for some time now, but have made but poor progress - mainly due to lack of suitable iconography showing such details in enough detail to draw definitive conclusions. My own thesis is that the very earliest calchedons/gallichons, were developed in Bohemia and northern Austrian lands in the 1660s and made use of the newly invented overwound strings to give a robust bass down to contabass ,A ( ie almost as low as the theorbo lowest bass) and so produce an easily manageable instrument able to play chromatically in the lowest register. The Edlinger of 1729 is, I think, a particularly good example of the fully developed large continuo form of the instrument (though I think there may have been some modifications to the finial of the pegbox). This instrument is is mentioned in the recent FoMRHI paper (link below) as is also the possible relationships to the Italian instrument briefly touched on in my earlier. Much food for thought [1][7]https://www.fomrhi.org/vanilla/fomrhi/uploads/bulletins/Fomrhi-13 1/C omm%202037.pdf regards Martyn On Friday, 22 November 2019, 10:08:17 GMT, Mimmo -
[LUTE] Re: Calchedon strnging was Re: Mandora/Gallichon website
Hi Martyn, thank you very much to inform me in matter. The open question about this instrument is still today not totally solved. So, I am doing my job concerning the strings only around the instrument that was in use in Germany around 1740-90 with 6 course (Niggel types) or even more (for example Wenger models). I agree with you that a such instrument sould be quite loud and competitive to the 7 bass viol (there are some historical sources that mention this thing). The problem is all round the use of the overspan strings, but only those thatb employ silk in the cores (those with gut cores are less loud) But the first mention of silk cores (5 course guitars come form Guerrero (Spain 1760's) who wrote that in Spain they use wound silk wound strings because they are louder than the traditional wound strings with gut cores. Then there is Corrette that suggest the use of silk cores. At today the only mention od possible silk cores come form John Playford in 1664 but Both T Mace and Talbot do not mentioned them at all. Need more investigations Ciao Mimmo Da: Martyn Hodgson Inviato: sabato 23 novembre 2019 10:31 A: Mimmo - Aquila Corde Armoniche ; Lute List Oggetto: Fw: [LUTE] Calchedon strnging was Re: Mandora/Gallichon website Dear Mimmo, Sorry, in my earlier I gave the wrong year for the Edlinger calchedon: - it should be 1728 not 1729 (the latter is the year Edlinger died). The instrument is part of the collection in the Narodnì Museum, Prague. Here's a link to a Czech language magazine site with a pic. [1]https://www.google.com/url?sa=i=images=*hUKEwi4ydqF-__ lAhWu34UKHXUXBB0QjRx6BAgBEAQ=http%3A%2F%2Fhudebnirozhledy.scena.cz% 2Fwww%2Findex.php%3Fpage%3Dclanek%26id_clanku%3D2519=AOvVaw3UC3UL_ IcQLJPxLR8YZdod regards Martyn - Forwarded message - From: Martyn Hodgson <[2]hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> To: Braig, Eugene <[3]brai...@osu.edu>; [4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu <[5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>; Mimmo - Aquila Corde Armoniche <[6]mperu...@aquilacorde.com> Sent: Friday, 22 November 2019, 12:34:24 GMT Subject: [LUTE] Calchedon strnging was Re: Mandora/Gallichon website Hello Mimmo, By coincidence I've also been developing a paper on early gallichon stringing for some time now, but have made but poor progress - mainly due to lack of suitable iconography showing such details in enough detail to draw definitive conclusions. My own thesis is that the very earliest calchedons/gallichons, were developed in Bohemia and northern Austrian lands in the 1660s and made use of the newly invented overwound strings to give a robust bass down to contabass ,A ( ie almost as low as the theorbo lowest bass) and so produce an easily manageable instrument able to play chromatically in the lowest register. The Edlinger of 1729 is, I think, a particularly good example of the fully developed large continuo form of the instrument (though I think there may have been some modifications to the finial of the pegbox). This instrument is is mentioned in the recent FoMRHI paper (link below) as is also the possible relationships to the Italian instrument briefly touched on in my earlier. Much food for thought [1][7]https://www.fomrhi.org/vanilla/fomrhi/uploads/bulletins/Fomrhi-13 1/C omm%202037.pdf regards Martyn On Friday, 22 November 2019, 10:08:17 GMT, Mimmo - Aquila Corde Armoniche <[8]mperu...@aquilacorde.com> wrote: Hello, This si really a good idea. I have this contribute that, in my opinion, the best painting concerning Gallichon/Mandora (I am doing article in matter of a possible historical string setup) [2][9]https://www.hampel-auctions.com/online-catalog-fullscreen.html?a0 =-1 Mimmo Peruffo -Messaggio originale- Da: [3][10]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu <[4][11]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> Per conto di Braig, Eugene Inviato: giovedì 21 novembre 2019 19:32 A: [5][12]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Oggetto: [LUTE] Re: Mandora/Gallichon website I look forward to watching the site develop. Thank you, Rainer. Eugene -Original Message- From: [6][13]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu <[7][14]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> On Behalf Of Seicento/Rainer Luckhardt Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2019 1:26 PM To: [8][15]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Mandora/Gallichon website Dear Lute-List, I'm going to set up a website about the 18th century mandora/gallichon. This might be a place for general information about the instrument(s), its history, where it has been played, composers, and,
[LUTE] Re: Calchedon strnging was Re: Mandora/Gallichon website
Dear Mimmo, Sorry, in my earlier I gave the wrong year for the Edlinger calchedon: - it should be 1728 not 1729 (the latter is the year Edlinger died). The instrument is part of the collection in the Narodnì Museum, Prague. Here's a link to a Czech language magazine site with a pic. [1]https://www.google.com/url?sa=i=images==2ahUKEwi4ydqF- __lAhWu34UKHXUXBB0QjRx6BAgBEAQ=http%3A%2F%2Fhudebnirozhledy.scena.c z%2Fwww%2Findex.php%3Fpage%3Dclanek%26id_clanku%3D2519=AOvVaw3UC3U L_IcQLJPxLR8YZdod=1574585668331802 regards Martyn - Forwarded message - From: Martyn Hodgson To: Braig, Eugene ; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu ; Mimmo - Aquila Corde Armoniche Sent: Friday, 22 November 2019, 12:34:24 GMT Subject: [LUTE] Calchedon strnging was Re: Mandora/Gallichon website Hello Mimmo, By coincidence I've also been developing a paper on early gallichon stringing for some time now, but have made but poor progress - mainly due to lack of suitable iconography showing such details in enough detail to draw definitive conclusions. My own thesis is that the very earliest calchedons/gallichons, were developed in Bohemia and northern Austrian lands in the 1660s and made use of the newly invented overwound strings to give a robust bass down to contabass ,A ( ie almost as low as the theorbo lowest bass) and so produce an easily manageable instrument able to play chromatically in the lowest register. The Edlinger of 1729 is, I think, a particularly good example of the fully developed large continuo form of the instrument (though I think there may have been some modifications to the finial of the pegbox). This instrument is is mentioned in the recent FoMRHI paper (link below) as is also the possible relationships to the Italian instrument briefly touched on in my earlier. Much food for thought [1][2]https://www.fomrhi.org/vanilla/fomrhi/uploads/bulletins/Fomrhi-13 1/C omm%202037.pdf regards Martyn On Friday, 22 November 2019, 10:08:17 GMT, Mimmo - Aquila Corde Armoniche <[3]mperu...@aquilacorde.com> wrote: Hello, This si really a good idea. I have this contribute that, in my opinion, the best painting concerning Gallichon/Mandora (I am doing article in matter of a possible historical string setup) [2][4]https://www.hampel-auctions.com/online-catalog-fullscreen.html?a= 120 =-1=683 Mimmo Peruffo -Messaggio originale- Da: [3][5]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu <[4][6]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> Per conto di Braig, Eugene Inviato: giovedà ¬ 21 novembre 2019 19:32 A: [5][7]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Oggetto: [LUTE] Re: Mandora/Gallichon website I look forward to watching the site develop. Thank you, Rainer. Eugene -Original Message- From: [6][8]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu <[7][9]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> On Behalf Of Seicento/Rainer Luckhardt Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2019 1:26 PM To: [8][10]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Mandora/Gallichon website Dear Lute-List, I'm going to set up a website about the 18th century mandora/gallichon. This might be a place for general information about the instrument(s), its history, where it has been played, composers, and, and, and.but also information about where to find a player, a lutemaker, and last but not least a download page for lots of pieces. Those who already know a bit about 18th century mandora music: don't be afraid! I'm not going to present hundreds of bad and boaring menuets there. Amongst all the manuscripts which I have (quite a lot, in copy of course) I've found many interesting pieces, technically not to much demanding, often with nice melodies, and sometimes music of high quality in baroque or gallant style. During the last years I've made a collection of my favorite pieces and suites, and I made readable copies of it with Fronimo. Probably other mandora players did the same. So why not putting together the whole mandora wisdom and repertoire and collect it in the web, downloadable for free and open to all. That's quite a lot of work of which I've already done a bit. Therefore I would like to ask the mandora players of amongst us (I know there are some) to participate to this idea, and to contribute whatever might be of interest. You can have a look to this very basic website with just an index-page, a completely empty "about Mandora"-page and the impressum (which is obligatory in Germany). The web adress is: www.gallichon.de But some buttons are already there, and so at least you can see which themes I have integrated until now. But
