Re: 'Tastini' - lack of evidence
Some of you may wish to know that the English translation by Carol MacClintock of Vincenzo Galilei's _Fronimo (1584),_ American Institute of Musicology, Musicological Studies and Documents, 39 (1985), is still available. My catalogue lists it for $64. AIM publications are distributed by A-R Editions in Middleton, Wisconsin.(www.areditions.com). Incidentally A-R Editions has just released John Griffiths and Dinko Fabris _Neapolitan Fantasias_ containing works by Dentice, the Severinos, Cardone, M. Newsidler et al. Transcription and separate tablature. Many of the works are from Berlin/Cracow, Mus Ms 40032. ajn - Arto wrote: Dear Martyn, > Yes, I would be most grateful for the relevant page numbers in the > original edition(s) -1568 and/or 1584. The MacClintoc translation/edition is of the 1584 version. If I interprete the listings of contents right, the talk about uneven fret placement and tastini starts in page 155ff: "Unequal frets on Lute and Viola to provide for major and minor semitones are an impertinence", and then page 162: "Frets added to the Lute, and their impertinence". What makes me wonder, is that these page numbers seem to correspond also the pages of the translation! And for ex. this 155ff is the _lower_ half of the modern page 155! Could MacClintock really preserve the original page numbering in the translation? Anyhow, please check that Martyn, and let us know! By the way, in the book there is lots of more interesting material of these matters than I wrote to the net in my page in 1995! That is only kind of teaser, actually... ;-) And in the book there is also very much else to be studied! I must put the book in the front of my reading list! Thanks for re-activating my interest to Il Fronimo! Perhaps I or others will inform the List of other intersting comments of music and lutes written by Vincenzo G.! All the best, Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: 'Tastini' - lack of evidence
Thank you Arto. The 1584 book is paginated running to page no. 182. Pages 120 through to 175 contain only tablature with no text other than titles of the pieces: - page 155 has an intabulation of 'Non ved'il mondo'; - page 162 of 'Caronte' and 'Mentre di poggia'. In short, as you suggest, there seems to be something rum about the page references. I suppose there's no help but to wade through the original: I don't suppose MacClintock gives the original Italian? - that would help in tracing the quotes. rgds Martyn Arto Wikla <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Dear Martyn, > Yes, I would be most grateful for the relevant page numbers in the > original edition(s) -1568 and/or 1584. The MacClintoc translation/edition is of the 1584 version. If I interprete the listings of contents right, the talk about uneven fret placement and tastini starts in page 155ff: "Unequal frets on Lute and Viola to provide for major and minor semitones are an impertinence", and then page 162: "Frets added to the Lute, and their impertinence". What makes me wonder, is that these page numbers seem to correspond also the pages of the translation! And for ex. this 155ff is the _lower_ half of the modern page 155! Could MacClintock really preserve the original page numbering in the translation? Anyhow, please check that Martyn, and let us know! By the way, in the book there is lots of more interesting material of these matters than I wrote to the net in my page in 1995! That is only kind of teaser, actually... ;-) And in the book there is also very much else to be studied! I must put the book in the front of my reading list! Thanks for re-activating my interest to Il Fronimo! Perhaps I or others will inform the List of other intersting comments of music and lutes written by Vincenzo G.! All the best, Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com --
Re: 'Tastini' - lack of evidence
Dear Martyn, > Yes, I would be most grateful for the relevant page numbers in the > original edition(s) -1568 and/or 1584. The MacClintoc translation/edition is of the 1584 version. If I interprete the listings of contents right, the talk about uneven fret placement and tastini starts in page 155ff: "Unequal frets on Lute and Viola to provide for major and minor semitones are an impertinence", and then page 162: "Frets added to the Lute, and their impertinence". What makes me wonder, is that these page numbers seem to correspond also the pages of the translation! And for ex. this 155ff is the _lower_ half of the modern page 155! Could MacClintock really preserve the original page numbering in the translation? Anyhow, please check that Martyn, and let us know! By the way, in the book there is lots of more interesting material of these matters than I wrote to the net in my page in 1995! That is only kind of teaser, actually... ;-) And in the book there is also very much else to be studied! I must put the book in the front of my reading list! Thanks for re-activating my interest to Il Fronimo! Perhaps I or others will inform the List of other intersting comments of music and lutes written by Vincenzo G.! All the best, Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: 'Tastini' - lack of evidence
At 06:48 AM 4/5/2005, Daniel Shoskes wrote: >> - hardly, I suggest, a convincing case for >>their adoption in modern times. > >No, the case for their adoption in modern times is getting an F# instead >of a Gb and a C# instead of a Db in meantone tuning! For that, I am >willing to have Gallilei's ghost stare dissaprovingly at me. Precisely. Galilei was advocating the use of equal temperament and disparaging lutenists who used tastini to avoid "some of the sharpness from the thirds and major tenths," using typical 16th-century invective. Actually rather mild by their standards. Caroline Caroline Usher DCMB Administrative Coordinator 613-8155, Box 91000 B343 LSRC To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Fwd: Re: 'Tastini' - lack of evidence
No Daniel, it's not just G I'm afraid but on the basis of historical evidence, or rather lack of it, most other early lutenists. If we are serious about period performance it is important we pay proper regard to what they wld have expected based on the evidence and not our personal preferences. rgds Martyn Daniel Shoskes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > - hardly, I suggest, a convincing case for >their adoption in modern times. No, the case for their adoption in modern times is getting an F# instead of a Gb and a C# instead of a Db in meantone tuning! For that, I am willing to have Gallilei's ghost stare dissaprovingly at me. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: 'Tastini' - lack of evidence
> - hardly, I suggest, a convincing case for >their adoption in modern times. No, the case for their adoption in modern times is getting an F# instead of a Gb and a C# instead of a Db in meantone tuning! For that, I am willing to have Gallilei's ghost stare dissaprovingly at me. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: 'Tastini' - lack of evidence
Thank you Arto, Yes, I would be most grateful for the relevant page numbers in the original edition(s) -1568 and/or 1584. rgds Martyn Arto Wikla <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Dear Martyn and all On Tuesday 05 April 2005 12:20, Martyn Hodgson wrote: > So, as I understand it, the sole piece of HISTORICAL evidence is from > Vincenzo Galilei's 'Fromino Dialogo' (1568,1584) translated by > MacClintock (AIM 1985) as: > "..Now I come to the matter of 'tastini' which lately some people > seek to introduce to remove some of the sharpness from the thirds and > major tenths (as they try to persuade those who are more foolish than > they)" MacClintock goes on to say that he later 'points out that > those using 'tastini' do not know much about thoery'. (Incidentally I > can't find the original Italian quotes in my copy of the 1584 book - > have you any source page numbers?) Just a small correction, if you have used as source my page http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/wikla/mus/fronimo.html There the comments in brackets [ ] are mine, not MacClintock's! So you should not blame him of my text: [Then he points out that those using the tastini do not know much about theory, they just want to hear 'marvels'.] The comments in paranthesis should be Galilei's. I think you should find MacClintock's translation in a good music library. I do not remember, did he give the page numbers of the original book. I can check it in the evening at home. By the way, every lutenist, in the MacClintock's edition all the tabulatures are in facsimile! An easy source of important lute music! Arto Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: 'Tastini' - lack of evidence
Dear Martyn and all On Tuesday 05 April 2005 12:20, Martyn Hodgson wrote: > So, as I understand it, the sole piece of HISTORICAL evidence is from > Vincenzo Galilei's 'Fromino Dialogo' (1568,1584) translated by > MacClintock (AIM 1985) as: > "..Now I come to the matter of 'tastini' which lately some people > seek to introduce to remove some of the sharpness from the thirds and > major tenths (as they try to persuade those who are more foolish than > they)" MacClintock goes on to say that he later 'points out that > those using 'tastini' do not know much about thoery'. (Incidentally I > can't find the original Italian quotes in my copy of the 1584 book - > have you any source page numbers?) Just a small correction, if you have used as source my page http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/wikla/mus/fronimo.html There the comments in brackets [ ] are mine, not MacClintock's! So you should not blame him of my text: [Then he points out that those using the tastini do not know much about theory, they just want to hear 'marvels'.] The comments in paranthesis should be Galilei's. I think you should find MacClintock's translation in a good music library. I do not remember, did he give the page numbers of the original book. I can check it in the evening at home. By the way, every lutenist, in the MacClintock's edition all the tabulatures are in facsimile! An easy source of important lute music! Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
'Tastini' - lack of evidence
Thank you Daniel. So, as I understand it, the sole piece of HISTORICAL evidence is from Vincenzo Galilei's 'Fromino Dialogo' (1568,1584) translated by MacClintock (AIM 1985) as: "..Now I come to the matter of 'tastini' which lately some people seek to introduce to remove some of the sharpness from the thirds and major tenths (as they try to persuade those who are more foolish than they)" MacClintock goes on to say that he later 'points out that those using 'tastini' do not know much about thoery'. (Incidentally I can't find the original Italian quotes in my copy of the 1584 book - have you any source page numbers?) In short, the ONLY piece of historical evidence for 'tastini' seems to be a passing reference in the pedagogic writings of Galilei who himself eschews their use and mentions that some foolish and ignorant people 'seek'' to introduce them: - hardly, I suggest, a convincing case for their adoption in modern times. And particularly so considering that when other early sources write about fretting they signally fail to mention these extra little frets (eg Dowland 'Varietie') and they is no trace of them in contemporary iconography. If anybody else has other HISTORICAL evidence, I'd be grateful for it. rgds Martyn ' Daniel Shoskes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On Monday, April 04, 2005, at 12:57PM, Martyn Hodgson wrote: > >Would someone kindly remind me of all the historical evidence for ''tastini', >for their actual widespread use and examples of any iconography depicting them. I can only refer to what others have said: http://home.planet.nl/~d.v.ooijen/lgs/meantone.html http://www.luteshop.fsnet.co.uk/tuning.htm http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/wikla/mus/fronimo.html Some professional players use them: http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/Heringman.html (both my teachers, Pat O'Brien and David Dolata do) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com --
