[LUTE] Re: An old Capirola edition?
Dear lutenists, many thanks to all, who commented very interestingly - in public and in private - the Capirola Padoana! I have been checking also some other pieces by "mesez Vicenzo capirola", as the SPES facsimile names the composer on the cover. It seems to be obvious that the 4th course needs the octave. There are many places that work and sound much better so... In the beginning my new Niskanen lute seemed to make that octave sound too loud, and I changed it to the same octave. But now the octave is back! We'll see(=hear), what will come of that... ;-) The split 3rd doesn't seem to be - at least for now - an attractive object of major workload, because the old Rooley edition is as such so fun to play... :) Best, Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: An old Capirola edition?
Sorry, my iPad didn't load all of the lutelist mail for some reason. The question was answered very completely in earlier emails. In the words of the great Emily Litella from the original Saturday Night Live... "Ohh, never mind" Steve > Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 00:14:21 -0700 > To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > From: blueh...@hotmail.com > Subject: [LUTE] Re: An old Capirola edition? > > It sounds like the version that was in the Rooley Lute Tutor. I can't > remember the name of the book and it is in storage so I can't put my > hands on it. > I would hazard a guess that it was edited that way to be "friendlier" > to a novice lutenist. > Steve > > Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 21:44:08 +0300 > > To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > > From: wi...@cs.helsinki.fi > > Subject: [LUTE] An old Capirola edition? > > > > Dear lutenists > > I played an old version of a "Padoana Veneziana", old _modern > version_ > > of this piece. It seems to be a free edition of the real Capirola > .23. > > "Padoana belissima, descorda come sancta trinitas" (Minkoff page 54). > > In the original the 6th course is lowered a whole tone, the edition > > uses the 7th. The original has a special section that separates the > > strings of the 4th course, the edition luckily not! ;-) The edition > > also misses some sections of the original. But the edition is fun to > > play! :-) Also the attribute "Veneziana" seems to be a modern > > interpretation? The piece is in > > [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElFIRz2WWxM&feature=youtu.be > > [2]http://vimeo.com/44120062 > > I have only an old photocopy page of the edition, no editor name > there. > > French tab. Looks like old Lute Society edition? Anyone happens to > know > > the editor or the reason for this Padoana being "Veneziana"? > > Best, > > Arto > > -- > > > > References > > > > Visible links > > 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElFIRz2WWxM&feature=youtu.be > > 2. http://vimeo.com/44120062 > > > > Hidden links: > > 3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElFIRz2WWxM&feature=youtu.be > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > -- > --
[LUTE] Re: An old Capirola edition?
It sounds like the version that was in the Rooley Lute Tutor. I can't remember the name of the book and it is in storage so I can't put my hands on it. I would hazard a guess that it was edited that way to be "friendlier" to a novice lutenist. Steve > Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 21:44:08 +0300 > To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > From: wi...@cs.helsinki.fi > Subject: [LUTE] An old Capirola edition? > > Dear lutenists > I played an old version of a "Padoana Veneziana", old _modern version_ > of this piece. It seems to be a free edition of the real Capirola .23. > "Padoana belissima, descorda come sancta trinitas" (Minkoff page 54). > In the original the 6th course is lowered a whole tone, the edition > uses the 7th. The original has a special section that separates the > strings of the 4th course, the edition luckily not! ;-) The edition > also misses some sections of the original. But the edition is fun to > play! :-) Also the attribute "Veneziana" seems to be a modern > interpretation? The piece is in > [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElFIRz2WWxM&feature=youtu.be > [2]http://vimeo.com/44120062 > I have only an old photocopy page of the edition, no editor name there. > French tab. Looks like old Lute Society edition? Anyone happens to know > the editor or the reason for this Padoana being "Veneziana"? > Best, > Arto > -- > > References > > Visible links > 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElFIRz2WWxM&feature=youtu.be > 2. http://vimeo.com/44120062 > > Hidden links: > 3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElFIRz2WWxM&feature=youtu.be > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: An old Capirola edition?
Dear Dan, I agree with you! It's always best to play the real thing... Although I have to say that I have always admired Tony Rooley for his understanding of renaissance culture and musicianship. In the case of the padoana, he rightly recognised that it has the sort of 'cut & paste' structure to it that allows subtraction (and potentially addition!) of sections without destroying the character of the piece. This seems to have been part of the way in which 16c lutenists worked. We should perhaps do more of it ourselves today... Best wishes, Denys -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Daniel Winheld Sent: 15 June 2012 22:28 To: Denys Stephens Cc: 'lute net' Subject: [LUTE] Re: An old Capirola edition? Understanding now that this is a version for beginners, I apologize for telling Arto to throw away anything pedagogical from Anthony Rooley's hand. But Arto is ready to move beyond the beginner's version! Dan Dan On Jun 15, 2012, at 1:29 PM, Denys Stephens wrote: > Dear Arto, > I think you must have a photocopy of the version from pages 29-30 > of Anthony Rooley's 'A new varietie of lute lessons' which was > published in 1975 together with an LP of all the pieces in the > book. It was rather an exciting idea at the time. It formed part > of a series of publications of 'music from student repertoire' > published by Guitar Magazine, which is the reason why the piece > is simplified by the exclusion of the more difficult sections. > The tablature was hand written by Michael Hunt, who also wrote > out some of the early Lute Society tablature sheets, which is > why it could easily be mistaken for a Lute Society production. > I have always found the split third course section in the > full version of the piece much easier to do in practice than > it might seem to be in theory, especially when you have the > right lute to play it on. It completely confounds, of course, > tablature programs, which have no way of replicating this > notation. > > The use of the title 'Padoana Venetiana' for the piece is > interesting. It has somehow entered the realm of lute > mythology that this is the proper title of the piece - which > as you have noted, it isn't! My guess is that this comes from > a misreading of the introductory material in Otto Gombosi's 1955 > edition of the Capirola lute book, where he describes the Capirola > padoana as belonging to the 'family' of dances which includes > Dalza's pavanas 'alla Venetiana,' although he doesn't give the > piece that title. But at the time of Tony Rooley's book, the > Capirola manuscript was only known from the Gombosi edition, > as there were no facsimilies of it available then. The padoana > itself seems to have been a lute players standard piece, and may > not have been composed by Capirola at all, although his version is > very elegant. Other versions of it are found in Newsidler's > 'Ein newes lautenbuchlein' of 1540, and more famously as 'the > Duke of Somersett's Dompe' in Ms. Royal Appendix 58. It's > particularly interesting that there is a 'Pavana deta la > descordata' which is clearly based on the same theme in > the Castelfranco Veneto manuscript, which seems to be Giovanni > Pacalono's reworking of the piece. It was still in circulation > and popular well after the time of the Capirola manuscript. > > Best wishes, > > Denys > > > > > > -Original Message- > From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf > Of Arto Wikla > Sent: 15 June 2012 19:44 > To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu > Subject: [LUTE] An old Capirola edition? > > Dear lutenists > I played an old version of a "Padoana Veneziana", old _modern version_ > of this piece. It seems to be a free edition of the real Capirola .23. > "Padoana belissima, descorda come sancta trinitas" (Minkoff page 54). > In the original the 6th course is lowered a whole tone, the edition > uses the 7th. The original has a special section that separates the > strings of the 4th course, the edition luckily not! ;-) The edition > also misses some sections of the original. But the edition is fun to > play! :-) Also the attribute "Veneziana" seems to be a modern > interpretation? The piece is in > [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElFIRz2WWxM&feature=youtu.be > [2]http://vimeo.com/44120062 > I have only an old photocopy page of the edition, no editor name there. > French tab. Looks like old Lute Society edition? Anyone happens to know > the editor or the reason for this Padoana being "Veneziana"? > Best, > Arto > -- > > References > > Visible links > 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElFIRz2WWxM&feature=youtu.be > 2. http://vimeo.com/44120062 > > Hidden links: > 3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElFIRz2WWxM&feature=youtu.be > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >
[LUTE] Re: An old Capirola edition?
I wonder if Anthony Rooley's modern edition is not taken from the "The duke of Sommersettes dompe" found in an English MS -- for more detail and the intabulation see Matthew Spring's History of the lute in Britain: http://books.google.com/books?id=OQPLgjs2n7IC&lpg=PA71&ots=C414PQG6YF&dq=osborn%20lute%20book&pg=PA82 Alain On 6/15/2012 11:44 AM, Arto Wikla wrote: Dear lutenists I played an old version of a "Padoana Veneziana", old _modern version_ of this piece. It seems to be a free edition of the real Capirola .23. "Padoana belissima, descorda come sancta trinitas" (Minkoff page 54). In the original the 6th course is lowered a whole tone, the edition uses the 7th. The original has a special section that separates the strings of the 4th course, the edition luckily not! ;-) The edition also misses some sections of the original. But the edition is fun to play! :-) Also the attribute "Veneziana" seems to be a modern interpretation? The piece is in [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElFIRz2WWxM&feature=youtu.be [2]http://vimeo.com/44120062 I have only an old photocopy page of the edition, no editor name there. French tab. Looks like old Lute Society edition? Anyone happens to know the editor or the reason for this Padoana being "Veneziana"? Best, Arto -- References Visible links 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElFIRz2WWxM&feature=youtu.be 2. http://vimeo.com/44120062 Hidden links: 3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElFIRz2WWxM&feature=youtu.be To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: An old Capirola edition?
Understanding now that this is a version for beginners, I apologize for telling Arto to throw away anything pedagogical from Anthony Rooley's hand. But Arto is ready to move beyond the beginner's version! Dan Dan On Jun 15, 2012, at 1:29 PM, Denys Stephens wrote: > Dear Arto, > I think you must have a photocopy of the version from pages 29-30 > of Anthony Rooley's 'A new varietie of lute lessons' which was > published in 1975 together with an LP of all the pieces in the > book. It was rather an exciting idea at the time. It formed part > of a series of publications of 'music from student repertoire' > published by Guitar Magazine, which is the reason why the piece > is simplified by the exclusion of the more difficult sections. > The tablature was hand written by Michael Hunt, who also wrote > out some of the early Lute Society tablature sheets, which is > why it could easily be mistaken for a Lute Society production. > I have always found the split third course section in the > full version of the piece much easier to do in practice than > it might seem to be in theory, especially when you have the > right lute to play it on. It completely confounds, of course, > tablature programs, which have no way of replicating this > notation. > > The use of the title 'Padoana Venetiana' for the piece is > interesting. It has somehow entered the realm of lute > mythology that this is the proper title of the piece - which > as you have noted, it isn't! My guess is that this comes from > a misreading of the introductory material in Otto Gombosi's 1955 > edition of the Capirola lute book, where he describes the Capirola > padoana as belonging to the 'family' of dances which includes > Dalza's pavanas 'alla Venetiana,' although he doesn't give the > piece that title. But at the time of Tony Rooley's book, the > Capirola manuscript was only known from the Gombosi edition, > as there were no facsimilies of it available then. The padoana > itself seems to have been a lute players standard piece, and may > not have been composed by Capirola at all, although his version is > very elegant. Other versions of it are found in Newsidler's > 'Ein newes lautenbuchlein' of 1540, and more famously as 'the > Duke of Somersett's Dompe' in Ms. Royal Appendix 58. It's > particularly interesting that there is a 'Pavana deta la > descordata' which is clearly based on the same theme in > the Castelfranco Veneto manuscript, which seems to be Giovanni > Pacalono's reworking of the piece. It was still in circulation > and popular well after the time of the Capirola manuscript. > > Best wishes, > > Denys > > > > > > -Original Message- > From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf > Of Arto Wikla > Sent: 15 June 2012 19:44 > To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu > Subject: [LUTE] An old Capirola edition? > > Dear lutenists > I played an old version of a "Padoana Veneziana", old _modern version_ > of this piece. It seems to be a free edition of the real Capirola .23. > "Padoana belissima, descorda come sancta trinitas" (Minkoff page 54). > In the original the 6th course is lowered a whole tone, the edition > uses the 7th. The original has a special section that separates the > strings of the 4th course, the edition luckily not! ;-) The edition > also misses some sections of the original. But the edition is fun to > play! :-) Also the attribute "Veneziana" seems to be a modern > interpretation? The piece is in > [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElFIRz2WWxM&feature=youtu.be > [2]http://vimeo.com/44120062 > I have only an old photocopy page of the edition, no editor name there. > French tab. Looks like old Lute Society edition? Anyone happens to know > the editor or the reason for this Padoana being "Veneziana"? > Best, > Arto > -- > > References > > Visible links > 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElFIRz2WWxM&feature=youtu.be > 2. http://vimeo.com/44120062 > > Hidden links: > 3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElFIRz2WWxM&feature=youtu.be > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >
[LUTE] Re: An old Capirola edition?
Dear Arto, I think you must have a photocopy of the version from pages 29-30 of Anthony Rooley's 'A new varietie of lute lessons' which was published in 1975 together with an LP of all the pieces in the book. It was rather an exciting idea at the time. It formed part of a series of publications of 'music from student repertoire' published by Guitar Magazine, which is the reason why the piece is simplified by the exclusion of the more difficult sections. The tablature was hand written by Michael Hunt, who also wrote out some of the early Lute Society tablature sheets, which is why it could easily be mistaken for a Lute Society production. I have always found the split third course section in the full version of the piece much easier to do in practice than it might seem to be in theory, especially when you have the right lute to play it on. It completely confounds, of course, tablature programs, which have no way of replicating this notation. The use of the title 'Padoana Venetiana' for the piece is interesting. It has somehow entered the realm of lute mythology that this is the proper title of the piece - which as you have noted, it isn't! My guess is that this comes from a misreading of the introductory material in Otto Gombosi's 1955 edition of the Capirola lute book, where he describes the Capirola padoana as belonging to the 'family' of dances which includes Dalza's pavanas 'alla Venetiana,' although he doesn't give the piece that title. But at the time of Tony Rooley's book, the Capirola manuscript was only known from the Gombosi edition, as there were no facsimilies of it available then. The padoana itself seems to have been a lute players standard piece, and may not have been composed by Capirola at all, although his version is very elegant. Other versions of it are found in Newsidler's 'Ein newes lautenbuchlein' of 1540, and more famously as 'the Duke of Somersett's Dompe' in Ms. Royal Appendix 58. It's particularly interesting that there is a 'Pavana deta la descordata' which is clearly based on the same theme in the Castelfranco Veneto manuscript, which seems to be Giovanni Pacalono's reworking of the piece. It was still in circulation and popular well after the time of the Capirola manuscript. Best wishes, Denys -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Arto Wikla Sent: 15 June 2012 19:44 To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] An old Capirola edition? Dear lutenists I played an old version of a "Padoana Veneziana", old _modern version_ of this piece. It seems to be a free edition of the real Capirola .23. "Padoana belissima, descorda come sancta trinitas" (Minkoff page 54). In the original the 6th course is lowered a whole tone, the edition uses the 7th. The original has a special section that separates the strings of the 4th course, the edition luckily not! ;-) The edition also misses some sections of the original. But the edition is fun to play! :-) Also the attribute "Veneziana" seems to be a modern interpretation? The piece is in [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElFIRz2WWxM&feature=youtu.be [2]http://vimeo.com/44120062 I have only an old photocopy page of the edition, no editor name there. French tab. Looks like old Lute Society edition? Anyone happens to know the editor or the reason for this Padoana being "Veneziana"? Best, Arto -- References Visible links 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElFIRz2WWxM&feature=youtu.be 2. http://vimeo.com/44120062 Hidden links: 3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElFIRz2WWxM&feature=youtu.be To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: An old Capirola edition?
Arto- I don't know where that version comes from. Throw it away and play the original- it's much better. In the original, it's the 3rd course that's split, not the 4th (wouldn't work very well, 8ve string). Splitting the 3rd course is 90% of the FUN part of this piece! It's set up to be very easy to play, and the effect is fantastic. I guarantee you'll love it when you try it. The other missing bits are also fun- but apparently it wasn't enough fun for Capirola or Vitale to finish it, but that's no problem either. Capirola does the split 3rd in one other piece, and I believe at least one Spanish vihuela composer does this. And your playing is very nice- excellent tone, expression, and I see you getting into the rhythm. Dan On Jun 15, 2012, at 11:44 AM, Arto Wikla wrote: > Dear lutenists > I played an old version of a "Padoana Veneziana", old _modern version_ > of this piece. It seems to be a free edition of the real Capirola .23. > "Padoana belissima, descorda come sancta trinitas" (Minkoff page 54). > In the original the 6th course is lowered a whole tone, the edition > uses the 7th. The original has a special section that separates the > strings of the 4th course, the edition luckily not! ;-) The edition > also misses some sections of the original. But the edition is fun to > play! :-) Also the attribute "Veneziana" seems to be a modern > interpretation? The piece is in > [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElFIRz2WWxM&feature=youtu.be > [2]http://vimeo.com/44120062 > I have only an old photocopy page of the edition, no editor name there. > French tab. Looks like old Lute Society edition? Anyone happens to know > the editor or the reason for this Padoana being "Veneziana"? > Best, > Arto > -- > > References > > Visible links > 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElFIRz2WWxM&feature=youtu.be > 2. http://vimeo.com/44120062 > > Hidden links: > 3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElFIRz2WWxM&feature=youtu.be > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
