[LUTE] Re: Best Body Frets?
On 09/26/2012 04:48 PM, Dan Winheld wrote: ..and I blew the syllable count on the last line. Hot seppuku for breakfast tomorrow. Autumn's in the air. On 9/26/2012 4:22 PM, Sean Smith wrote: Frets fall, leaves fly. On Sep 26, 2012, at 4:12 PM, Dan Winheld wrote: Warm case holds pegbox, Wooden frets are falling off- Autumn is in the air. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Best Body Frets?
Hi-they are not parallel to the soundboard. The layers are quite thin but with three layers it becomes a big fret. I used a drum sander to make the thin layers. -Sterling From: Ed Durbrow To: sterling price ; LuteNet list Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2012 6:54 AM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Best Body Frets? How does the sandwich work? Layers parallel to the soundboard or do they look like slices of oreos from the top? if it is parallel, those would be incredibly thin slices. On Sep 26, 2012, at 3:20 PM, sterling price <[1]spiffys84...@yahoo.com> wrote: > I am quite picky about body frets. I always use a hard material like > ebony or rosewood. On my holly lute the body frets are a > holly/ebony/holly sandwich and on another lute I have ebony/ivory > sandwich. These lutes sound great in high positions. > --Sterling > From: Stephan Olbertz <[2]stephan.olbe...@web.de> > To: [3]lute-cs.dartmouth.edu <[4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2012 11:16 PM > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Best Body Frets? > Bone is also nice. > Regards > Stephan > Am 26.09.2012, 01:37 Uhr, schrieb Dan Winheld <[1][5]dwinh...@lmi.net>: >> A question tossed onto the waves of this Ocean of Lute Wisdom- >> >> Any consensus regarding the best material for body frets? My woodies >> often sound a little too "woody"- they are some light colored wood, > no >> idea what species; and lately I've been knocking them off the >> soundboard. So instead of just regluing them, I wonder if other >> materials might sound better (but still be easily glued, preferably > with >> white glue?) >> >> I can think of ebony, maybe other legal/available tropical or other >> hardwoods, other materials? Ivory-like materials, celluloid, etc? And > a >> format that's easy for the workshop-challenged non-luthier to deal > with. >> (non-tapered toothpicks, half-round or something of that nature.) >> >> Thanks, all. >> Dan >> >> >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> > -- > Viele Gruesse > Best regards > Stephan Olbertz > > -- > > References > > 1. mailto:[6]dwinh...@lmi.net > -- References 1. mailto:spiffys84...@yahoo.com 2. mailto:stephan.olbe...@web.de 3. http://lute-cs.dartmouth.edu/ 4. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 5. mailto:dwinh...@lmi.net 6. mailto:dwinh...@lmi.net
[LUTE] Re: Best Body Frets?
Fret knot. On Sep 26, 2012, at 4:48 PM, Dan Winheld wrote: .and I blew the syllable count on the last line. Hot seppuku for breakfast tomorrow. On 9/26/2012 4:22 PM, Sean Smith wrote: > > Frets fall, leaves fly. > > > > > On Sep 26, 2012, at 4:12 PM, Dan Winheld wrote: > > Warm case holds pegbox, > Wooden frets are falling off- > Autumn is in the air. > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > >
[LUTE] Re: Best Body Frets?
..and I blew the syllable count on the last line. Hot seppuku for breakfast tomorrow. On 9/26/2012 4:22 PM, Sean Smith wrote: Frets fall, leaves fly. On Sep 26, 2012, at 4:12 PM, Dan Winheld wrote: Warm case holds pegbox, Wooden frets are falling off- Autumn is in the air. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Best Body Frets?
Frets fall, leaves fly. On Sep 26, 2012, at 4:12 PM, Dan Winheld wrote: Warm case holds pegbox, Wooden frets are falling off- Autumn is in the air. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Best Body Frets?
Warm case holds pegbox, Wooden frets are falling off- Autumn is in the air. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Best Body Frets?
There is a triple headed Theorbo or Angelique in the München Stadtmuseum (9-126), that has all ivory on the neck as well as the body - obviously a late modification. I posted photos on the http://lutegroup.ning.com site. trj -Original Message- From: Dan Winheld To: lute Sent: Tue, Sep 25, 2012 7:39 pm Subject: [LUTE] Best Body Frets? A question tossed onto the waves of this Ocean of Lute Wisdom- Any consensus regarding the best material for body frets? My woodies often sound a little too "woody"- they are some light colored wood, no idea what species; and lately I've been knocking them off the soundboard. So instead of just regluing them, I wonder if other materials might sound better (but still be easily glued, preferably with white glue?) I can think of ebony, maybe other legal/available tropical or other hardwoods, other materials? Ivory-like materials, celluloid, etc? And a format that's easy for the workshop-challenged non-luthier to deal with. (non-tapered toothpicks, half-round or something of that nature.) Thanks, all. Dan To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: Best Body Frets?
Yep- diatonic/modal fretting. There are guitars built to accommodate interchangeable fingerboards of different fretting systems. John Schneider (not to be confused with lutenist/mulit-instrumentalist John Schneiderman) uses them for a lot of avante-gard music, including Harry Partch & Lou Harrison. On 9/26/2012 12:21 PM, Paolo Busato wrote: That short fret recalls me of an African instrument, the Malagasy Kabosy. See here: http://www.boutique.laterit.fr/img/p/69-279-thickbox.jpg Paolo Busato lute-maker www.busatolutes.com e-mail: paolo.busatoatbusatolutes.com _ Il contenuto di questa e-mail e dei file allegati è RISERVATO e da considerarsi utilizzabile solamente dalla persona o dall'ente cui è indirizzato. Se avete ricevuto questa e-mail per errore, siete pregati di eliminarla e di contattare il mittente (Legge italiana 196/2003). The content of this e-mail and any files is CONFIDENTIAL and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete this email and any attachments and contact the sender. (Italian Law 196/2003) _ - Original Message - From: "Dan Winheld" To: "Paolo Busato" Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2012 9:11 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Best Body Frets? I know- that's bothered me for years. Diatonic fretting for the 1st course? -But that would only make sense going from 10-f to 12-g. The last fret that I broke- which prompted me to start this whole thread- was a piece off the end of the 11th, permitting only such diatonic fretting at that spot. Shame that I require the f# as well. The frets in Costa's painting look entirely too elegant & symmetrical to be a broken fret such as mine. Dan On 9/26/2012 11:35 AM, Paolo Busato wrote: Strangely enough the lute in the Costa's painting has eleven frets (instead of twelve) and the tenth fret "covers" only the 2nd, 3rd and 4th course. Paolo Busato lute-maker www.busatolutes.com e-mail: paolo.busatoatbusatolutes.com _ Il contenuto di questa e-mail e dei file allegati è RISERVATO e da considerarsi utilizzabile solamente dalla persona o dall'ente cui è indirizzato. Se avete ricevuto questa e-mail per errore, siete pregati di eliminarla e di contattare il mittente (Legge italiana 196/2003). The content of this e-mail and any files is CONFIDENTIAL and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete this email and any attachments and contact the sender. (Italian Law 196/2003) _ - Original Message - From: "Dan Winheld" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2012 5:53 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Best Body Frets? William, While body frets were certainly not standard (Francesco was just one player known for going above the frets, as not doubt was Pietro Bono and others) , they were an option going as far back as the late 15 Century- see Lorenzo Costa's "Concert", ca. 1485-95, National Gallery, London. 3 ebony looking frets right there on the 5 course lute. Anyway, Not quite the point of my question. Been there, done that. My six course lute was body fretless for decades, and I had zero trouble nailing the notes with perfect intonation, after some practice. In fact, I have a new student who is a violinist. He almost can't stand ANY of the frets- neck and body- interfering with his ability to get the perfect intonation he is used to, and accomplishes very easily by touch/hearing. At least as beginner, he finds them very difficult. But the necessity of clear, defined singing tone for those last 3, 4, or more semitones takes precedence in the music I am playing on these days. Which is why I put them on my eight course lute, which I was playing without body frets for the first 6 months after I got it- and yes, it is great practice. But the freedom to get really get accurate intonation was trumped but the need for more clearly defined tone. A pity, really, as the 12th fret requires some tricky slanting to get the octave "n" in perfect tune from the first down to the 4th course, then others take their position cues from that fret. And they are not all perfect- compromising happens. 17th century French practice is not 18th century German practice. While Dowland mentions ten tied frets in addition to body frets, 9 seems to have been standard and sufficient for the French virtuosos, but Weiss has you going right up to the octave, and there seem to be quite a number of late swan neck lutes with 14 total frets. Sam- I wouldn't use that dou
[LUTE] Re: Best Body Frets?
There are partial frets on a number of kinds of citterns. See some
pictures at
[1]http://www.cittern.theaterofmusic.com/old/index.html
Nancy
At 12:21 PM 9/26/2012, Paolo Busato wrote:
That short fret recalls me of an African instrument, the Malagasy
Kabosy. See here:
[2]http://www.boutique.laterit.fr/img/p/69-279-thickbox.jpg
Paolo Busato lute-maker
[3]www.busatolutes.com
e-mail: paolo.busatoatbusatolutes.com
_
Il contenuto di questa e-mail e dei file allegati e RISERVATO e da
considerarsi utilizzabile solamente dalla persona o dall'ente cui e
indirizzato. Se avete ricevuto questa e-mail per errore, siete
pregati di
eliminarla e di contattare il mittente (Legge italiana 196/2003).
The
content of this e-mail and any files is CONFIDENTIAL and intended
solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is
addressed.
If you are not the intended recipient, please delete this email
and any attachments and contact the sender. (Italian Law 196/2003)
_
- Original Message - From: "Dan Winheld"
To: "Paolo Busato"
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2012 9:11 PM
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Best Body Frets?
I know- that's bothered me for years. Diatonic fretting for the 1st
course? -But that would only make sense going from 10-f to 12-g. The
last fret that I broke- which prompted me to start this whole
thread- was a piece off the end of the 11th, permitting only such
diatonic fretting at that spot. Shame that I require the f# as well.
The frets in Costa's painting look entirely too elegant &
symmetrical to be a broken fret such as mine.
Dan
On 9/26/2012 11:35 AM, Paolo Busato wrote:
Strangely enough the lute in the Costa's painting has eleven frets
(instead of twelve) and the tenth fret "covers" only the 2nd, 3rd
and 4th course.
Paolo Busato lute-maker
[4]www.busatolutes.com
e-mail: paolo.busatoatbusatolutes.com
_
Il contenuto di questa e-mail e dei file allegati e RISERVATO e da
considerarsi utilizzabile solamente dalla persona o dall'ente cui e
indirizzato. Se avete ricevuto questa e-mail per errore, siete
pregati di
eliminarla e di contattare il mittente (Legge italiana 196/2003).
The
content of this e-mail and any files is CONFIDENTIAL and intended
solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is
addressed.
If you are not the intended recipient, please delete this email
and any attachments and contact the sender. (Italian Law 196/2003)
_
- Original Message - From: "Dan Winheld"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2012 5:53 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Best Body Frets?
William,
While body frets were certainly not standard (Francesco was just one
player known for going above the frets, as not doubt was Pietro Bono
and others) , they were an option going as far back as the late 15
Century- see Lorenzo Costa's "Concert", ca. 1485-95, National
Gallery, London. 3 ebony looking frets right there on the 5 course
lute.
Anyway, Not quite the point of my question. Been there, done that.
My six course lute was body fretless for decades, and I had zero
trouble nailing the notes with perfect intonation, after some
practice. In fact, I have a new student who is a violinist. He
almost can't stand ANY of the frets- neck and body- interfering with
his ability to get the perfect intonation he is used to, and
accomplishes very easily by touch/hearing. At least as beginner, he
finds them very difficult.
But the necessity of clear, defined singing tone for those last 3,
4, or more semitones takes precedence in the music I am playing on
these days. Which is why I put them on my eight course lute, which I
was playing without body frets for the first 6 months after I got
it- and yes, it is great practice. But the freedom to get really
get accurate intonation was trumped but the need for more clearly
defined tone. A pity, really, as the 12th fret requires some tricky
slanting to get the octave "n" in perfect tune from the first down
to the 4th course, then others take their position cues from that
fret. And they are not all perfect- compromising happens.
17th century French practice is not 18th century German practice.
While Dowland mentions ten tied frets in addition to body frets, 9
[LUTE] Re: Best Body Frets?
You don't really need the 12th fret. Just play the harmonic! Miles Dempster On 2012-09-26, at 2:35 PM, Paolo Busato wrote: > Strangely enough the lute in the Costa's painting has eleven frets (instead > of twelve) and the tenth fret "covers" only the 2nd, 3rd and 4th course. > > Paolo Busato lute-maker > www.busatolutes.com > e-mail: paolo.busatoatbusatolutes.com > _ > Il contenuto di questa e-mail e dei file allegati è RISERVATO e da > considerarsi utilizzabile solamente dalla persona o dall'ente cui è > indirizzato. Se avete ricevuto questa e-mail per errore, siete pregati di > eliminarla e di contattare il mittente (Legge italiana 196/2003). The > content of this e-mail and any files is CONFIDENTIAL and intended > solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. > If you are not the intended recipient, please delete this email > and any attachments and contact the sender. (Italian Law 196/2003) > _ > > - Original Message - From: "Dan Winheld" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2012 5:53 PM > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Best Body Frets? > > >> William, >> >> While body frets were certainly not standard (Francesco was just one player >> known for going above the frets, as not doubt was Pietro Bono and others) , >> they were an option going as far back as the late 15 Century- see Lorenzo >> Costa's "Concert", ca. 1485-95, National Gallery, London. 3 ebony looking >> frets right there on the 5 course lute. >> >> Anyway, Not quite the point of my question. Been there, done that. My six >> course lute was body fretless for decades, and I had zero trouble nailing >> the notes with perfect intonation, after some practice. In fact, I have a >> new student who is a violinist. He almost can't stand ANY of the frets- neck >> and body- interfering with his ability to get the perfect intonation he is >> used to, and accomplishes very easily by touch/hearing. At least as >> beginner, he finds them very difficult. >> >> But the necessity of clear, defined singing tone for those last 3, 4, or >> more semitones takes precedence in the music I am playing on these days. >> Which is why I put them on my eight course lute, which I was playing without >> body frets for the first 6 months after I got it- and yes, it is great >> practice. But the freedom to get really get accurate intonation was trumped >> but the need for more clearly defined tone. A pity, really, as the 12th fret >> requires some tricky slanting to get the octave "n" in perfect tune from the >> first down to the 4th course, then others take their position cues from that >> fret. And they are not all perfect- compromising happens. >> >> 17th century French practice is not 18th century German practice. While >> Dowland mentions ten tied frets in addition to body frets, 9 seems to have >> been standard and sufficient for the French virtuosos, but Weiss has you >> going right up to the octave, and there seem to be quite a number of late >> swan neck lutes with 14 total frets. >> >> Sam- I wouldn't use that double sticky tape for more than temporary position >> exploring. I thought it was the cat's pajamas myself for a few weeks, then >> they started getting knocked around, and the sound (on my lute, of course!) >> was markedly inferior to properly glued frets. The tape layer that carries >> the glue creates a barrier to proper sound transmission- already compromised >> the further up you go- and makes fret thickness sizing more troublesome. >> Just my experience. >> >> Dan >> >> >> >> On 9/26/2012 12:26 AM, William Samson wrote: >>>What nobody has mentioned yet is that body frets, while not unknown, >>>were comparatively rare back in the day. There's a brief mention of >>>them in 'Varietie' and only a few paintings show evidence of their >>>use. Accurate stopping of the string on the soundboard might well have >>>been the norm - and of course a 'singing' tone would be out. I suspect >>>the reason people want them is that Dowland used fret positions right >>>up to the 12th, and of course all the Bream recordings that lurk at the >>>back of many players' minds have a wonderful sustained tone on these >>>notes. Would Dowland himself have used them or would they be regarded >>>as
[LUTE] Re: Best Body Frets?
> That short fret recalls me of an African instrument, the Malagasy > Kabosy. See here: > http://www.boutique.laterit.fr/img/p/69-279-thickbox.jpg I think have seen this sort of fret arrangement also on Tamburitza. Tom > Paolo Busato lute-maker > www.busatolutes.com > e-mail: paolo.busatoatbusatolutes.com > __ > ___ Il contenuto di questa e-mail e dei file allegati è RISERVATO e da > considerarsi utilizzabile solamente dalla persona o dall'ente cui è > indirizzato. Se avete ricevuto questa e-mail per errore, siete pregati > di eliminarla e di contattare il mittente (Legge italiana 196/2003). > The content of this e-mail and any files is CONFIDENTIAL and intended > solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is > addressed. > If you are not the intended recipient, please delete this email > and any attachments and contact the sender. (Italian Law 196/2003) > __ > ___ > > - Original Message - > From: "Dan Winheld" > To: "Paolo Busato" > Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2012 9:11 PM > Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Best Body Frets? > > > >I know- that's bothered me for years. Diatonic fretting for the 1st > >course? -But that would only make sense going from 10-f to 12-g. The > >last fret that I broke- which prompted me to start this whole thread- > >was a piece off the end of the 11th, permitting only such diatonic > >fretting at that spot. Shame that I require the f# as well. The frets > >in Costa's painting look entirely too elegant & symmetrical to be a > >broken fret such as mine. > > > > Dan > > > > On 9/26/2012 11:35 AM, Paolo Busato wrote: > >> Strangely enough the lute in the Costa's painting has eleven frets > >> (instead of twelve) and the tenth fret "covers" only the 2nd, 3rd > >> and 4th course. > >> > >> Paolo Busato lute-maker > >> www.busatolutes.com > >> e-mail: paolo.busatoatbusatolutes.com > >> ___ > >> __ Il contenuto di questa e-mail e dei file allegati è > >> RISERVATO e da considerarsi utilizzabile solamente dalla persona o > >> dall'ente cui è indirizzato. Se avete ricevuto questa e-mail per > >> errore, siete pregati di eliminarla e di contattare il mittente > >> (Legge italiana 196/2003). The content of this e-mail and any files > >> is CONFIDENTIAL and intended solely for the use of the individual > >> or entity to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended > >> recipient, please delete this email and any attachments and contact > >> the sender. (Italian Law 196/2003) > >> ___ > >> __ > >> > >> - Original Message - From: "Dan Winheld" > >> To: Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2012 > >> 5:53 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Best Body Frets? > >> > >> > >>> William, > >>> > >>> While body frets were certainly not standard (Francesco was just > >>> one player known for going above the frets, as not doubt was > >>> Pietro Bono and others) , they were an option going as far back as > >>> the late 15 Century- see Lorenzo Costa's "Concert", ca. 1485-95, > >>> National Gallery, London. 3 ebony looking frets right there on the > >>> 5 course lute. > >>> > >>> Anyway, Not quite the point of my question. Been there, done that. > >>> My six course lute was body fretless for decades, and I had zero > >>> trouble nailing the notes with perfect intonation, after some > >>> practice. In fact, I have a new student who is a violinist. He > >>> almost can't stand ANY of the frets- neck and body- interfering > >>> with his ability to get the perfect intonation he is used to, and > >>> accomplishes very easily by touch/hearing. At least as beginner, > >>> he finds them very difficult. > >>> > >>> But the necessity of clear, defined singing tone for those last 3, > >>> 4, or more semitones takes precedence in the music I am playing on > >>> these days. Which is why I put them on my eight course lute, which > >>> I was playing without body frets for the first 6 months after I > >>> got it- and yes, it is great practice. But the freedom to get > >>> really get accurate inton
[LUTE] Re: Best Body Frets?
That short fret recalls me of an African instrument, the Malagasy Kabosy. See here: http://www.boutique.laterit.fr/img/p/69-279-thickbox.jpg Paolo Busato lute-maker www.busatolutes.com e-mail: paolo.busatoatbusatolutes.com _ Il contenuto di questa e-mail e dei file allegati è RISERVATO e da considerarsi utilizzabile solamente dalla persona o dall'ente cui è indirizzato. Se avete ricevuto questa e-mail per errore, siete pregati di eliminarla e di contattare il mittente (Legge italiana 196/2003). The content of this e-mail and any files is CONFIDENTIAL and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete this email and any attachments and contact the sender. (Italian Law 196/2003) _ - Original Message - From: "Dan Winheld" To: "Paolo Busato" Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2012 9:11 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Best Body Frets? I know- that's bothered me for years. Diatonic fretting for the 1st course? -But that would only make sense going from 10-f to 12-g. The last fret that I broke- which prompted me to start this whole thread- was a piece off the end of the 11th, permitting only such diatonic fretting at that spot. Shame that I require the f# as well. The frets in Costa's painting look entirely too elegant & symmetrical to be a broken fret such as mine. Dan On 9/26/2012 11:35 AM, Paolo Busato wrote: Strangely enough the lute in the Costa's painting has eleven frets (instead of twelve) and the tenth fret "covers" only the 2nd, 3rd and 4th course. Paolo Busato lute-maker www.busatolutes.com e-mail: paolo.busatoatbusatolutes.com _ Il contenuto di questa e-mail e dei file allegati è RISERVATO e da considerarsi utilizzabile solamente dalla persona o dall'ente cui è indirizzato. Se avete ricevuto questa e-mail per errore, siete pregati di eliminarla e di contattare il mittente (Legge italiana 196/2003). The content of this e-mail and any files is CONFIDENTIAL and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete this email and any attachments and contact the sender. (Italian Law 196/2003) _ - Original Message - From: "Dan Winheld" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2012 5:53 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Best Body Frets? William, While body frets were certainly not standard (Francesco was just one player known for going above the frets, as not doubt was Pietro Bono and others) , they were an option going as far back as the late 15 Century- see Lorenzo Costa's "Concert", ca. 1485-95, National Gallery, London. 3 ebony looking frets right there on the 5 course lute. Anyway, Not quite the point of my question. Been there, done that. My six course lute was body fretless for decades, and I had zero trouble nailing the notes with perfect intonation, after some practice. In fact, I have a new student who is a violinist. He almost can't stand ANY of the frets- neck and body- interfering with his ability to get the perfect intonation he is used to, and accomplishes very easily by touch/hearing. At least as beginner, he finds them very difficult. But the necessity of clear, defined singing tone for those last 3, 4, or more semitones takes precedence in the music I am playing on these days. Which is why I put them on my eight course lute, which I was playing without body frets for the first 6 months after I got it- and yes, it is great practice. But the freedom to get really get accurate intonation was trumped but the need for more clearly defined tone. A pity, really, as the 12th fret requires some tricky slanting to get the octave "n" in perfect tune from the first down to the 4th course, then others take their position cues from that fret. And they are not all perfect- compromising happens. 17th century French practice is not 18th century German practice. While Dowland mentions ten tied frets in addition to body frets, 9 seems to have been standard and sufficient for the French virtuosos, but Weiss has you going right up to the octave, and there seem to be quite a number of late swan neck lutes with 14 total frets. Sam- I wouldn't use that double sticky tape for more than temporary position exploring. I thought it was the cat's pajamas myself for a few weeks, then they started getting knocked around, and the sound (on my lute, of course!) was markedly inferior to properly glued frets. The tape layer that carries the glue creates a barrier to proper sound transmission- already compromise
[LUTE] Re: Best Body Frets?
Strangely enough the lute in the Costa's painting has eleven frets (instead of twelve) and the tenth fret "covers" only the 2nd, 3rd and 4th course. Paolo Busato lute-maker www.busatolutes.com e-mail: paolo.busatoatbusatolutes.com _ Il contenuto di questa e-mail e dei file allegati è RISERVATO e da considerarsi utilizzabile solamente dalla persona o dall'ente cui è indirizzato. Se avete ricevuto questa e-mail per errore, siete pregati di eliminarla e di contattare il mittente (Legge italiana 196/2003). The content of this e-mail and any files is CONFIDENTIAL and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete this email and any attachments and contact the sender. (Italian Law 196/2003) _ - Original Message - From: "Dan Winheld" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2012 5:53 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Best Body Frets? William, While body frets were certainly not standard (Francesco was just one player known for going above the frets, as not doubt was Pietro Bono and others) , they were an option going as far back as the late 15 Century- see Lorenzo Costa's "Concert", ca. 1485-95, National Gallery, London. 3 ebony looking frets right there on the 5 course lute. Anyway, Not quite the point of my question. Been there, done that. My six course lute was body fretless for decades, and I had zero trouble nailing the notes with perfect intonation, after some practice. In fact, I have a new student who is a violinist. He almost can't stand ANY of the frets- neck and body- interfering with his ability to get the perfect intonation he is used to, and accomplishes very easily by touch/hearing. At least as beginner, he finds them very difficult. But the necessity of clear, defined singing tone for those last 3, 4, or more semitones takes precedence in the music I am playing on these days. Which is why I put them on my eight course lute, which I was playing without body frets for the first 6 months after I got it- and yes, it is great practice. But the freedom to get really get accurate intonation was trumped but the need for more clearly defined tone. A pity, really, as the 12th fret requires some tricky slanting to get the octave "n" in perfect tune from the first down to the 4th course, then others take their position cues from that fret. And they are not all perfect- compromising happens. 17th century French practice is not 18th century German practice. While Dowland mentions ten tied frets in addition to body frets, 9 seems to have been standard and sufficient for the French virtuosos, but Weiss has you going right up to the octave, and there seem to be quite a number of late swan neck lutes with 14 total frets. Sam- I wouldn't use that double sticky tape for more than temporary position exploring. I thought it was the cat's pajamas myself for a few weeks, then they started getting knocked around, and the sound (on my lute, of course!) was markedly inferior to properly glued frets. The tape layer that carries the glue creates a barrier to proper sound transmission- already compromised the further up you go- and makes fret thickness sizing more troublesome. Just my experience. Dan On 9/26/2012 12:26 AM, William Samson wrote: What nobody has mentioned yet is that body frets, while not unknown, were comparatively rare back in the day. There's a brief mention of them in 'Varietie' and only a few paintings show evidence of their use. Accurate stopping of the string on the soundboard might well have been the norm - and of course a 'singing' tone would be out. I suspect the reason people want them is that Dowland used fret positions right up to the 12th, and of course all the Bream recordings that lurk at the back of many players' minds have a wonderful sustained tone on these notes. Would Dowland himself have used them or would they be regarded as a crutch for amateur performers who couldn't stop the string accurately - a bit like some learning violinists use tied-on frets? After the longer-necked lutes of the early 17th century came along (neck/body join at around the 10th fret usually) you have to look hard to find pieces that use notes above the 10th fret, for the rest of that century. Bill From: Dan Winheld To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, 26 September 2012, 0:37 Subject: [LUTE] Best Body Frets? A question tossed onto the waves of this Ocean of Lute Wisdom- Any consensus regarding the best material for body frets? My woodies often sound a little too "woody"- they are some light colored wood, no
[LUTE] Re: Best Body Frets?
Two votes for bamboo, so far- best in category; home fretting, kitchen division. Maybe fish bones, some seem to be pretty straight, and about the right size, coming off the spine. Perfect with the recommended fish glue. Dan On 9/25/2012 11:47 PM, David van Ooijen wrote: On 26 September 2012 01:37, Dan Winheld wrote: A question tossed onto the waves of this Ocean of Lute Wisdom- What gets washed ashore - aprat from plastics - bamboo! I use bamboo skewers. Rummage through the kitchen drawers to find one. David To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Best Body Frets?
William, While body frets were certainly not standard (Francesco was just one player known for going above the frets, as not doubt was Pietro Bono and others) , they were an option going as far back as the late 15 Century- see Lorenzo Costa's "Concert", ca. 1485-95, National Gallery, London. 3 ebony looking frets right there on the 5 course lute. Anyway, Not quite the point of my question. Been there, done that. My six course lute was body fretless for decades, and I had zero trouble nailing the notes with perfect intonation, after some practice. In fact, I have a new student who is a violinist. He almost can't stand ANY of the frets- neck and body- interfering with his ability to get the perfect intonation he is used to, and accomplishes very easily by touch/hearing. At least as beginner, he finds them very difficult. But the necessity of clear, defined singing tone for those last 3, 4, or more semitones takes precedence in the music I am playing on these days. Which is why I put them on my eight course lute, which I was playing without body frets for the first 6 months after I got it- and yes, it is great practice. But the freedom to get really get accurate intonation was trumped but the need for more clearly defined tone. A pity, really, as the 12th fret requires some tricky slanting to get the octave "n" in perfect tune from the first down to the 4th course, then others take their position cues from that fret. And they are not all perfect- compromising happens. 17th century French practice is not 18th century German practice. While Dowland mentions ten tied frets in addition to body frets, 9 seems to have been standard and sufficient for the French virtuosos, but Weiss has you going right up to the octave, and there seem to be quite a number of late swan neck lutes with 14 total frets. Sam- I wouldn't use that double sticky tape for more than temporary position exploring. I thought it was the cat's pajamas myself for a few weeks, then they started getting knocked around, and the sound (on my lute, of course!) was markedly inferior to properly glued frets. The tape layer that carries the glue creates a barrier to proper sound transmission- already compromised the further up you go- and makes fret thickness sizing more troublesome. Just my experience. Dan On 9/26/2012 12:26 AM, William Samson wrote: What nobody has mentioned yet is that body frets, while not unknown, were comparatively rare back in the day. There's a brief mention of them in 'Varietie' and only a few paintings show evidence of their use. Accurate stopping of the string on the soundboard might well have been the norm - and of course a 'singing' tone would be out. I suspect the reason people want them is that Dowland used fret positions right up to the 12th, and of course all the Bream recordings that lurk at the back of many players' minds have a wonderful sustained tone on these notes. Would Dowland himself have used them or would they be regarded as a crutch for amateur performers who couldn't stop the string accurately - a bit like some learning violinists use tied-on frets? After the longer-necked lutes of the early 17th century came along (neck/body join at around the 10th fret usually) you have to look hard to find pieces that use notes above the 10th fret, for the rest of that century. Bill From: Dan Winheld To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, 26 September 2012, 0:37 Subject: [LUTE] Best Body Frets? A question tossed onto the waves of this Ocean of Lute Wisdom- Any consensus regarding the best material for body frets? My woodies often sound a little too "woody"- they are some light colored wood, no idea what species; and lately I've been knocking them off the soundboard. So instead of just regluing them, I wonder if other materials might sound better (but still be easily glued, preferably with white glue?) I can think of ebony, maybe other legal/available tropical or other hardwoods, other materials? Ivory-like materials, celluloid, etc? And a format that's easy for the workshop-challenged non-luthier to deal with. (non-tapered toothpicks, half-round or something of that nature.) Thanks, all. Dan To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Best Body Frets?
What nobody has mentioned yet is that body frets, while not unknown, were comparatively rare back in the day. There's a brief mention of them in 'Varietie' and only a few paintings show evidence of their use. Accurate stopping of the string on the soundboard might well have been the norm - and of course a 'singing' tone would be out. I suspect the reason people want them is that Dowland used fret positions right up to the 12th, and of course all the Bream recordings that lurk at the back of many players' minds have a wonderful sustained tone on these notes. Would Dowland himself have used them or would they be regarded as a crutch for amateur performers who couldn't stop the string accurately - a bit like some learning violinists use tied-on frets? After the longer-necked lutes of the early 17th century came along (neck/body join at around the 10th fret usually) you have to look hard to find pieces that use notes above the 10th fret, for the rest of that century. Bill From: Dan Winheld To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, 26 September 2012, 0:37 Subject: [LUTE] Best Body Frets? A question tossed onto the waves of this Ocean of Lute Wisdom- Any consensus regarding the best material for body frets? My woodies often sound a little too "woody"- they are some light colored wood, no idea what species; and lately I've been knocking them off the soundboard. So instead of just regluing them, I wonder if other materials might sound better (but still be easily glued, preferably with white glue?) I can think of ebony, maybe other legal/available tropical or other hardwoods, other materials? Ivory-like materials, celluloid, etc? And a format that's easy for the workshop-challenged non-luthier to deal with. (non-tapered toothpicks, half-round or something of that nature.) Thanks, all. Dan To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Best Body Frets?
I am quite picky about body frets. I always use a hard material like ebony or rosewood. On my holly lute the body frets are a holly/ebony/holly sandwich and on another lute I have ebony/ivory sandwich. These lutes sound great in high positions. --Sterling From: Stephan Olbertz To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2012 11:16 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Best Body Frets? Bone is also nice. Regards Stephan Am 26.09.2012, 01:37 Uhr, schrieb Dan Winheld <[1]dwinh...@lmi.net>: > A question tossed onto the waves of this Ocean of Lute Wisdom- > > Any consensus regarding the best material for body frets? My woodies > often sound a little too "woody"- they are some light colored wood, no > idea what species; and lately I've been knocking them off the > soundboard. So instead of just regluing them, I wonder if other > materials might sound better (but still be easily glued, preferably with > white glue?) > > I can think of ebony, maybe other legal/available tropical or other > hardwoods, other materials? Ivory-like materials, celluloid, etc? And a > format that's easy for the workshop-challenged non-luthier to deal with. > (non-tapered toothpicks, half-round or something of that nature.) > > Thanks, all. > Dan > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > -- Viele Gruesse Best regards Stephan Olbertz -- References 1. mailto:dwinh...@lmi.net
[LUTE] Re: Best Body Frets?
Bone is also nice. Regards Stephan Am 26.09.2012, 01:37 Uhr, schrieb Dan Winheld : A question tossed onto the waves of this Ocean of Lute Wisdom- Any consensus regarding the best material for body frets? My woodies often sound a little too "woody"- they are some light colored wood, no idea what species; and lately I've been knocking them off the soundboard. So instead of just regluing them, I wonder if other materials might sound better (but still be easily glued, preferably with white glue?) I can think of ebony, maybe other legal/available tropical or other hardwoods, other materials? Ivory-like materials, celluloid, etc? And a format that's easy for the workshop-challenged non-luthier to deal with. (non-tapered toothpicks, half-round or something of that nature.) Thanks, all. Dan To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Viele Grüße Best regards Stephan Olbertz
[LUTE] Re: Best Body Frets?
Indeed, the fish glue - completely reversible, easily removed with a drop of warm water. The gut pieces just need to be ironed with a clothes iron. If a proper groove is is prepared in a piece of wood, and the piece of gut put in it, a reasonably flat bottom surface can be made. Also - they come out quite straight and actually a bit more firm. alexander r. On Tue, 25 Sep 2012 19:16:42 -0700 Stephen Fryer wrote: > Dan Winheld wrote: > > What glue have you used? > > I'd suggest hide or fish glue. Then it's possible to unglue and replace > a worn fret. > > Stephen Fryer > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Best Body Frets?
Dan Winheld wrote: What glue have you used? I'd suggest hide or fish glue. Then it's possible to unglue and replace a worn fret. Stephen Fryer To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Best Body Frets?
Thanks Alexander- I've thought of that, but what stopped me was, 1. One would need a double diameter size fret so that it could be split lengthwise to provide a flat surface for glue up. 2. When not being stretched under tension around the neck, pieces of gut tend to be wiggly little bastards. 3. Less durable than wood or other material. BUT- same fret material, same tone. (Until one wanders out past the neckblock, where lack of support ends the whole ballgame, response wise. ) Based on your past successful experience, I may try this. Plenty of raw material here. What glue have you used? Thanks,Dan On 9/25/2012 6:38 PM, alexander wrote: I have used the properly sized pieces of fret gut in the past. One gets a consistent material this way. alexander r. On Tue, 25 Sep 2012 16:37:59 -0700 Dan Winheld wrote: A question tossed onto the waves of this Ocean of Lute Wisdom- Any consensus regarding the best material for body frets? My woodies often sound a little too "woody"- they are some light colored wood, no idea what species; and lately I've been knocking them off the soundboard. So instead of just regluing them, I wonder if other materials might sound better (but still be easily glued, preferably with white glue?) I can think of ebony, maybe other legal/available tropical or other hardwoods, other materials? Ivory-like materials, celluloid, etc? And a format that's easy for the workshop-challenged non-luthier to deal with. (non-tapered toothpicks, half-round or something of that nature.) Thanks, all. Dan To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Best Body Frets?
I have used the properly sized pieces of fret gut in the past. One gets a consistent material this way. alexander r. On Tue, 25 Sep 2012 16:37:59 -0700 Dan Winheld wrote: > A question tossed onto the waves of this Ocean of Lute Wisdom- > > Any consensus regarding the best material for body frets? My woodies > often sound a little too "woody"- they are some light colored wood, no > idea what species; and lately I've been knocking them off the > soundboard. So instead of just regluing them, I wonder if other > materials might sound better (but still be easily glued, preferably with > white glue?) > > I can think of ebony, maybe other legal/available tropical or other > hardwoods, other materials? Ivory-like materials, celluloid, etc? And a > format that's easy for the workshop-challenged non-luthier to deal with. > (non-tapered toothpicks, half-round or something of that nature.) > > Thanks, all. > Dan > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
