[LUTE] Re: Caccini's theorbo
Which Harwood article are we talking about here? P On 7 March 2010 01:05, Roman Turovsky [1]r.turov...@verizon.net wrote: Thankfully we have Renato Meucci to have sorted out the HArwood mess. RT - Original Message - From: David Tayler [2]vidan...@sbcglobal.net To: [3]lute-cs.dartmouth.edu [4]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, March 06, 2010 7:03 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Caccini's theorbo I think the original article by Harwood, et al., is a pretty thorough study, it just draws the wrong conclusion from its own research by conflating theorbo and chitarrone. Conflating the terms is understandable, because many of the terms were used interchangeably. The big mistake they made was in not understanding that using the terms interchangeably is the exact opposite of conflation, and that the result of their system would be that we would wind up with fewer differences, not more; uniform, not diverse. However the research itself is right, I think, bass lute tuned physically up or imagined as up by transposition. The information is in the article, just ignored in the conclusions. dt -- References 1. mailto:r.turov...@verizon.net 2. mailto:vidan...@sbcglobal.net 3. http://lute-cs.dartmouth.edu/ 4. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Caccini's theorbo
I have a Caccini instrument which was made for me made for me which is exactly as Chris describes, a large bodied bass lute. I opted for seven courses, although eight or nine seemed like a good idea. I then played around with the tuning for a while, winding up with G single reentrant because most of the songs-- incl. Amarilli--I wanted to play were in G. I also sometimes play it with the fourth course a half step lower so it can be played in meantone with no extra frets. I use this instrument for a lot of the repertory from 1580-1620. One can make the case that this is the Chittarone, but whether one uses ths term or not it seems like a basic, practical solution. The instrument is definetely louder than a theorbo, for reasons that are somewhat puzzling, but loud it is. I expected to corner the early 17th century market, but of course 99 percent of the clients have no idea what it is, and then, when it is explained to them, want the theorbo anyway. So much for HIP. And so it goes. dt At 10:25 AM 3/5/2010, you wrote: Whenever I decide to play Caccini on 7-course lute or on my (essentially French kind-of) theorbo, I ponder the matter of Caccini's theorbo and things like the fingered g#. First, I really wish I could justify the expense of a bass lute with theorbo tuning. It would make me whole, in a way. The Bottegari lute book (1570s) contains at least one tune by Caccini, and considering the sense of portentousness that Nuove Musiche (1600something) exudes, I'm inclined to think that versions of the other tunes contained in it had also been kicking around Caccini's desk for a while, since a time, maybe, when his songs would have been accompanied on lute. Even if he says the music is 'Nuove.' And since it seems like leaping around octaves in the theorbo bass line is just a fact of life and can be perfectly euphonious (on A theorbo I always start 'Amarilli' on the 7th course and finger the following f# on the 4th course; no complaints yet) I reckon that whatever instrument he originally intended the songs to be accompanied by, the bass lines would be written in a way that was sensible enough for keyboardists to play them as written (maybe also taking pains to ensure that nothing figured '11' would be played as a mere '4') but that lutenists and theorbo players were no more octave-bound in 1600 than they were when Delair authorized playing inconvenient or difficult notes at 16' in 1690. Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 08:49:07 -0800 To: Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; davidvanooi...@gmail.com From: chriswi...@yahoo.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: Caccini's theorbo David, My guess is that is not what we would call a theorbo at all, but rather a bass lute probably tuned theorbo-like. All the strings would therefore be on one neck and those chromatic basses could be fingered. Whether the tuning was in A, G or something else and whether one or both of the upper courses were down the octave is anyone's guess. This is almost certainly the same type of instrument Kapsperger used for his first chitarrone book. I seem to remember that HK doesn't use more than 11 courses in this book and he also requires an apparently fingered G# bass note as well as the open G-natural in Toccata VI. Chris --- On Fri, 3/5/10, David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com wrote: From: David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com Subject: [LUTE] Caccini's theorbo To: lutelist Net Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, March 5, 2010, 9:19 AM Do we know anything about the instrument(s) Caccini played? His bass lines sometimes need G as well as G#, (and I believe F as well as F#) in one piece, which is impossible on a 'standard' (...) theorbo in a with 6 strings/courses on the fingerboard. If Caccini were just another composer, and I'd transpose the bass at will, but knowing he was a theorbo player, I'm a wondering about his setup: how many strings on the fingerboard and what nominal pitch? There are many practical solutions, but did somebody make a study into Caccini's lute, perhaps? David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft. [1]Get it now. -- References 1. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469230/direct/01/
[LUTE] Re: Caccini's theorbo
Also, for those who wish to use a theorbo or archlute, when you have your instrument made, always ask the maker to build it so that it can be 6+8, 7+7 or 8+6. This is very easy to do, and allows you to fret the F sharp in any number of ways. I have the archlute in that configuration, and the theorbos are 7+8, 8+7 which gives a low low F, which is also handy for continuo, though not essential. Another possibility is of course that the music was read a tone higher at a lower pitch, or whatever nominal pitch was used, however, as a practical matter for the music written around 1600, the F sharp is an essential note, and the low D is very handy, but not necessary if you have the long strings. Since they presumably did not have the long strings at that time, the alternate stringing solution for the theorbo covers this lacuna for those who do not want to invest in a bass lute. dt At 11:59 AM 3/6/2010, you wrote: I have a Caccini instrument which was made for me made for me which is exactly as Chris describes, a large bodied bass lute. I opted for seven courses, although eight or nine seemed like a good idea. I then played around with the tuning for a while, winding up with G single reentrant because most of the songs-- incl. Amarilli--I wanted to play were in G. I also sometimes play it with the fourth course a half step lower so it can be played in meantone with no extra frets. I use this instrument for a lot of the repertory from 1580-1620. One can make the case that this is the Chittarone, but whether one uses ths term or not it seems like a basic, practical solution. The instrument is definetely louder than a theorbo, for reasons that are somewhat puzzling, but loud it is. I expected to corner the early 17th century market, but of course 99 percent of the clients have no idea what it is, and then, when it is explained to them, want the theorbo anyway. So much for HIP. And so it goes. dt At 10:25 AM 3/5/2010, you wrote: Whenever I decide to play Caccini on 7-course lute or on my (essentially French kind-of) theorbo, I ponder the matter of Caccini's theorbo and things like the fingered g#. First, I really wish I could justify the expense of a bass lute with theorbo tuning. It would make me whole, in a way. The Bottegari lute book (1570s) contains at least one tune by Caccini, and considering the sense of portentousness that Nuove Musiche (1600something) exudes, I'm inclined to think that versions of the other tunes contained in it had also been kicking around Caccini's desk for a while, since a time, maybe, when his songs would have been accompanied on lute. Even if he says the music is 'Nuove.' And since it seems like leaping around octaves in the theorbo bass line is just a fact of life and can be perfectly euphonious (on A theorbo I always start 'Amarilli' on the 7th course and finger the following f# on the 4th course; no complaints yet) I reckon that whatever instrument he originally intended the songs to be accompanied by, the bass lines would be written in a way that was sensible enough for keyboardists to play them as written (maybe also taking pains to ensure that nothing figured '11' would be played as a mere '4') but that lutenists and theorbo players were no more octave-bound in 1600 than they were when Delair authorized playing inconvenient or difficult notes at 16' in 1690. Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 08:49:07 -0800 To: Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; davidvanooi...@gmail.com From: chriswi...@yahoo.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: Caccini's theorbo David, My guess is that is not what we would call a theorbo at all, but rather a bass lute probably tuned theorbo-like. All the strings would therefore be on one neck and those chromatic basses could be fingered. Whether the tuning was in A, G or something else and whether one or both of the upper courses were down the octave is anyone's guess. This is almost certainly the same type of instrument Kapsperger used for his first chitarrone book. I seem to remember that HK doesn't use more than 11 courses in this book and he also requires an apparently fingered G# bass note as well as the open G-natural in Toccata VI. Chris --- On Fri, 3/5/10, David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com wrote: From: David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com Subject: [LUTE] Caccini's theorbo To: lutelist Net Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, March 5, 2010, 9:19 AM Do we know anything about the instrument(s) Caccini played? His bass lines sometimes need G as well as G#, (and I believe F as well as F#) in one piece, which is impossible on a 'standard' (...) theorbo in a with 6 strings/courses on the fingerboard. If Caccini were just another composer
[LUTE] Re: Caccini's theorbo
On Sat, Mar 6, 2010 at 8:59 PM, David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net wrote: I have a Caccini instrument which was made for me made for me which is exactly as Chris describes, a large bodied bass lute. I opted for seven courses, although eight or nine seemed like a good idea. Same story here. I have a 78cm 10-course bass lute. I have it tuned in D, very convenient for continuo, but mostly used for English lute song. And, indeed, very loud. Pain in the shoulders, too. ;-) But it seems nobody did a thorough study on Caccini's instrument. Much interesting andp lausible speculation, though, for which I thank all contributors. David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Caccini's theorbo
I think the original article by Harwood, et al., is a pretty thorough study, it just draws the wrong conclusion from its own research by conflating theorbo and chitarrone. Conflating the terms is understandable, because many of the terms were used interchangeably. The big mistake they made was in not understanding that using the terms interchangeably is the exact opposite of conflation, and that the result of their system would be that we would wind up with fewer differences, not more; uniform, not diverse. However the research itself is right, I think, bass lute tuned physically up or imagined as up by transposition. The information is in the article, just ignored in the conclusions. dt At 01:37 PM 3/6/2010, you wrote: On Sat, Mar 6, 2010 at 8:59 PM, David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net wrote: I have a Caccini instrument which was made for me made for me which is exactly as Chris describes, a large bodied bass lute. I opted for seven courses, although eight or nine seemed like a good idea. Same story here. I have a 78cm 10-course bass lute. I have it tuned in D, very convenient for continuo, but mostly used for English lute song. And, indeed, very loud. Pain in the shoulders, too. ;-) But it seems nobody did a thorough study on Caccini's instrument. Much interesting andp lausible speculation, though, for which I thank all contributors. David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Caccini's theorbo
Thankfully we have Renato Meucci to have sorted out the HArwood mess. RT - Original Message - From: David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, March 06, 2010 7:03 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Caccini's theorbo I think the original article by Harwood, et al., is a pretty thorough study, it just draws the wrong conclusion from its own research by conflating theorbo and chitarrone. Conflating the terms is understandable, because many of the terms were used interchangeably. The big mistake they made was in not understanding that using the terms interchangeably is the exact opposite of conflation, and that the result of their system would be that we would wind up with fewer differences, not more; uniform, not diverse. However the research itself is right, I think, bass lute tuned physically up or imagined as up by transposition. The information is in the article, just ignored in the conclusions. dt At 01:37 PM 3/6/2010, you wrote: On Sat, Mar 6, 2010 at 8:59 PM, David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net wrote: I have a Caccini instrument which was made for me made for me which is exactly as Chris describes, a large bodied bass lute. I opted for seven courses, although eight or nine seemed like a good idea. Same story here. I have a 78cm 10-course bass lute. I have it tuned in D, very convenient for continuo, but mostly used for English lute song. And, indeed, very loud. Pain in the shoulders, too. ;-) But it seems nobody did a thorough study on Caccini's instrument. Much interesting andp lausible speculation, though, for which I thank all contributors. David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Caccini's theorbo
David, My guess is that is not what we would call a theorbo at all, but rather a bass lute probably tuned theorbo-like. All the strings would therefore be on one neck and those chromatic basses could be fingered. Whether the tuning was in A, G or something else and whether one or both of the upper courses were down the octave is anyone's guess. This is almost certainly the same type of instrument Kapsperger used for his first chitarrone book. I seem to remember that HK doesn't use more than 11 courses in this book and he also requires an apparently fingered G# bass note as well as the open G-natural in Toccata VI. Chris --- On Fri, 3/5/10, David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com wrote: From: David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com Subject: [LUTE] Caccini's theorbo To: lutelist Net Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, March 5, 2010, 9:19 AM Do we know anything about the instrument(s) Caccini played? His bass lines sometimes need G as well as G#, (and I believe F as well as F#) in one piece, which is impossible on a 'standard' (...) theorbo in a with 6 strings/courses on the fingerboard. If Caccini were just another composer, and I'd transpose the bass at will, but knowing he was a theorbo player, I'm a wondering about his setup: how many strings on the fingerboard and what nominal pitch? There are many practical solutions, but did somebody make a study into Caccini's lute, perhaps? David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Caccini's theorbo
Whenever I decide to play Caccini on 7-course lute or on my (essentially French kind-of) theorbo, I ponder the matter of Caccini's theorbo and things like the fingered g#. First, I really wish I could justify the expense of a bass lute with theorbo tuning. It would make me whole, in a way. The Bottegari lute book (1570s) contains at least one tune by Caccini, and considering the sense of portentousness that Nuove Musiche (1600something) exudes, I'm inclined to think that versions of the other tunes contained in it had also been kicking around Caccini's desk for a while, since a time, maybe, when his songs would have been accompanied on lute. Even if he says the music is 'Nuove.' And since it seems like leaping around octaves in the theorbo bass line is just a fact of life and can be perfectly euphonious (on A theorbo I always start 'Amarilli' on the 7th course and finger the following f# on the 4th course; no complaints yet) I reckon that whatever instrument he originally intended the songs to be accompanied by, the bass lines would be written in a way that was sensible enough for keyboardists to play them as written (maybe also taking pains to ensure that nothing figured '11' would be played as a mere '4') but that lutenists and theorbo players were no more octave-bound in 1600 than they were when Delair authorized playing inconvenient or difficult notes at 16' in 1690. Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 08:49:07 -0800 To: Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; davidvanooi...@gmail.com From: chriswi...@yahoo.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: Caccini's theorbo David, My guess is that is not what we would call a theorbo at all, but rather a bass lute probably tuned theorbo-like. All the strings would therefore be on one neck and those chromatic basses could be fingered. Whether the tuning was in A, G or something else and whether one or both of the upper courses were down the octave is anyone's guess. This is almost certainly the same type of instrument Kapsperger used for his first chitarrone book. I seem to remember that HK doesn't use more than 11 courses in this book and he also requires an apparently fingered G# bass note as well as the open G-natural in Toccata VI. Chris --- On Fri, 3/5/10, David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com wrote: From: David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com Subject: [LUTE] Caccini's theorbo To: lutelist Net Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, March 5, 2010, 9:19 AM Do we know anything about the instrument(s) Caccini played? His bass lines sometimes need G as well as G#, (and I believe F as well as F#) in one piece, which is impossible on a 'standard' (...) theorbo in a with 6 strings/courses on the fingerboard. If Caccini were just another composer, and I'd transpose the bass at will, but knowing he was a theorbo player, I'm a wondering about his setup: how many strings on the fingerboard and what nominal pitch? There are many practical solutions, but did somebody make a study into Caccini's lute, perhaps? David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft. [1]Get it now. -- References 1. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469230/direct/01/
[LUTE] Re: Caccini's theorbo
As no low F is written in my version, I tune the F to F# for Amarilli. Victor Coelho has an article in the Journal of Seventeenth Century Music (vol 9 2003) about the Camerata, Caccini and the nuove musiche and how it wasn't so new when finally published. r -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of John Lenti Sent: Friday, March 05, 2010 1:26 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Net Subject: [LUTE] Re: Caccini's theorbo Whenever I decide to play Caccini on 7-course lute or on my (essentially French kind-of) theorbo, I ponder the matter of Caccini's theorbo and things like the fingered g#. First, I really wish I could justify the expense of a bass lute with theorbo tuning. It would make me whole, in a way. The Bottegari lute book (1570s) contains at least one tune by Caccini, and considering the sense of portentousness that Nuove Musiche (1600something) exudes, I'm inclined to think that versions of the other tunes contained in it had also been kicking around Caccini's desk for a while, since a time, maybe, when his songs would have been accompanied on lute. Even if he says the music is 'Nuove.' And since it seems like leaping around octaves in the theorbo bass line is just a fact of life and can be perfectly euphonious (on A theorbo I always start 'Amarilli' on the 7th course and finger the following f# on the 4th course; no complaints yet) I reckon that whatever instrument he originally intended the songs to be accompanied by, the bass lines would be written in a way that was sensible enough for keyboardists to play them as written (maybe also taking pains to ensure that nothing figured '11' would be played as a mere '4') but that lutenists and theorbo players were no more octave-bound in 1600 than they were when Delair authorized playing inconvenient or difficult notes at 16' in 1690. Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 08:49:07 -0800 To: Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; davidvanooi...@gmail.com From: chriswi...@yahoo.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: Caccini's theorbo David, My guess is that is not what we would call a theorbo at all, but rather a bass lute probably tuned theorbo-like. All the strings would therefore be on one neck and those chromatic basses could be fingered. Whether the tuning was in A, G or something else and whether one or both of the upper courses were down the octave is anyone's guess. This is almost certainly the same type of instrument Kapsperger used for his first chitarrone book. I seem to remember that HK doesn't use more than 11 courses in this book and he also requires an apparently fingered G# bass note as well as the open G-natural in Toccata VI. Chris --- On Fri, 3/5/10, David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com wrote: From: David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com Subject: [LUTE] Caccini's theorbo To: lutelist Net Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, March 5, 2010, 9:19 AM Do we know anything about the instrument(s) Caccini played? His bass lines sometimes need G as well as G#, (and I believe F as well as F#) in one piece, which is impossible on a 'standard' (...) theorbo in a with 6 strings/courses on the fingerboard. If Caccini were just another composer, and I'd transpose the bass at will, but knowing he was a theorbo player, I'm a wondering about his setup: how many strings on the fingerboard and what nominal pitch? There are many practical solutions, but did somebody make a study into Caccini's lute, perhaps? David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft. [1]Get it now. -- References 1. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469230/direct/01/
