[LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience
Wow - that was quick work. That must be the picture. But is there any evidence that the lutenist is Foscarini? To be honest - when I first read the liner notes to the CD I thought they were a work of fiction. But perhaps I am missing something. Monica - Original Message - From: "Jean-Marie Poirier" To: "Monica Hall" Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 8:05 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Foscarini Experience Monica, Would that be the picture you are looking for ? If yes, it's just across the street, VAM ;-) ! Here's a link with details : http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O18973/painting-the-ommeganck-in-brussels-on/ All the best, Jean-Marie = == En réponse au message du 31-03-2011, 20:54:29 == I came across this CD by the group Foscarini Experience with the title "Bon voyage" some time ago.In the liner notes it mentions an illustration which features Foscarini on a wagon playing the lute together with a girl with a triangle and a violone player which apparently dates from 1615 and is part of an illustration of a feast held for the Archduchess Isabella Clara Eugenia, the wife of the Archduke Albert. Does anyone know anything about this illustration and whether the lutenist is clearly identified as Foscarini. I have done a bit of surfing the net but haven't found any trace of it. Monica -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience
P.S All the players look like females to me...! Monica - Original Message - From: "Monica Hall" To: "Jean-Marie Poirier" Cc: "Lutelist" Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 8:10 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience Wow - that was quick work. That must be the picture. But is there any evidence that the lutenist is Foscarini? To be honest - when I first read the liner notes to the CD I thought they were a work of fiction. But perhaps I am missing something. Monica - Original Message - From: "Jean-Marie Poirier" To: "Monica Hall" Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 8:05 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Foscarini Experience Monica, Would that be the picture you are looking for ? If yes, it's just across the street, VAM ;-) ! Here's a link with details : http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O18973/painting-the-ommeganck-in-brussels-on/ All the best, Jean-Marie = == En réponse au message du 31-03-2011, 20:54:29 == I came across this CD by the group Foscarini Experience with the title "Bon voyage" some time ago.In the liner notes it mentions an illustration which features Foscarini on a wagon playing the lute together with a girl with a triangle and a violone player which apparently dates from 1615 and is part of an illustration of a feast held for the Archduchess Isabella Clara Eugenia, the wife of the Archduke Albert. Does anyone know anything about this illustration and whether the lutenist is clearly identified as Foscarini. I have done a bit of surfing the net but haven't found any trace of it. Monica -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience
I quite like that CD (especially the guitar solos that they opted to record as solos), but the liner notes do strike me as a bit "whimsical." Eugene > -Original Message- > From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On > Behalf Of Monica Hall > Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 3:10 PM > To: Jean-Marie Poirier > Cc: Lutelist > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience > > Wow - that was quick work. That must be the picture. But is there any > evidence that the lutenist is Foscarini? > > To be honest - when I first read the liner notes to the CD I thought they > were a work of fiction. But perhaps I am missing something. > > Monica > > - Original Message - > From: "Jean-Marie Poirier" > To: "Monica Hall" > Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 8:05 PM > Subject: Re: [LUTE] Foscarini Experience > > > > Monica, > > > > Would that be the picture you are looking for ? > > If yes, it's just across the street, VAM ;-) ! > > Here's a link with details : > > http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O18973/painting-the-ommeganck-in- > brussels-on/ > > > > All the best, > > > > Jean-Marie > > > > = > > > > == En réponse au message du 31-03-2011, 20:54:29 == > > > >> I came across this CD by the group Foscarini Experience with the > title > >> "Bon voyage" some time ago.In the liner notes it mentions an > >> illustration which features Foscarini on a wagon playing the lute > >> together with a girl with a triangle and a violone player which > >> apparently dates from 1615 and is part of an illustration of a feast > >> held for the Archduchess Isabella Clara Eugenia, the wife of the > >> Archduke Albert. > >> > >> > >> > >> Does anyone know anything about this illustration and whether the > >> lutenist is clearly identified as Foscarini. I have done a bit of > >> surfing the net but haven't found any trace of it. > >> > >> > >> > >> Monica > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> > >> > >>To get on or off this list see list information at > >>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > > >
[LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience
Yes - the music is fun and I really enjoyed hearing the solo pieces too - but liner notes are just nonsense. They have just made it all up as a kind of concept to hang the recording on. Really it's irresponsible - because what they have said is now being repeated as if it were true. What a world we live in. Monica - Original Message - From: "Monica Hall" To: "Eugene C. Braig IV" Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 8:20 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience - Original Message - From: "Eugene C. Braig IV" To: "'Lutelist'" Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 8:12 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience I quite like that CD (especially the guitar solos that they opted to record as solos), but the liner notes do strike me as a bit "whimsical." Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Monica Hall Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 3:10 PM To: Jean-Marie Poirier Cc: Lutelist Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience Wow - that was quick work. That must be the picture. But is there any evidence that the lutenist is Foscarini? To be honest - when I first read the liner notes to the CD I thought they were a work of fiction. But perhaps I am missing something. Monica - Original Message - From: "Jean-Marie Poirier" To: "Monica Hall" Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 8:05 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Foscarini Experience > Monica, > > Would that be the picture you are looking for ? > If yes, it's just across the street, VAM ;-) ! > Here's a link with details : > http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O18973/painting-the-ommeganck-in- brussels-on/ > > All the best, > > Jean-Marie > > = > > == En réponse au message du 31-03-2011, 20:54:29 == > >> I came across this CD by the group Foscarini Experience with the title >> "Bon voyage" some time ago.In the liner notes it mentions an >> illustration which features Foscarini on a wagon playing the lute >> together with a girl with a triangle and a violone player which >> apparently dates from 1615 and is part of an illustration of a >> feast >> held for the Archduchess Isabella Clara Eugenia, the wife of the >> Archduke Albert. >> >> >> >> Does anyone know anything about this illustration and whether the >> lutenist is clearly identified as Foscarini. I have done a bit of >> surfing the net but haven't found any trace of it. >> >> >> >> Monica >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> >>To get on or off this list see list information at >>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > >
[LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience
Don't even mention Grove - as far as the baroque guitar is concerned it is full of errors. Monica - Original Message - From: "A. J. Ness" To: "Monica Hall" Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 8:56 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience That's what makes me angry about the Jacques de Saint-Luc article in New Grove (first ed. and MGG 1963). Musica Rara has puibo. all the Suittes dessus and bassus, andattributres them one by one to three different composers named St.Luc. - Original Message - From: "Monica Hall" To: "Monica Hall" Cc: "Lutelist" Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 3:23 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience Yes - the music is fun and I really enjoyed hearing the solo pieces too - but liner notes are just nonsense. They have just made it all up as a kind of concept to hang the recording on. Really it's irresponsible - because what they have said is now being repeated as if it were true. What a world we live in. Monica - Original Message - From: "Monica Hall" To: "Eugene C. Braig IV" Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 8:20 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience - Original Message - From: "Eugene C. Braig IV" To: "'Lutelist'" Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 8:12 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience I quite like that CD (especially the guitar solos that they opted to record as solos), but the liner notes do strike me as a bit "whimsical." Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Monica Hall Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 3:10 PM To: Jean-Marie Poirier Cc: Lutelist Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience Wow - that was quick work. That must be the picture. But is there any evidence that the lutenist is Foscarini? To be honest - when I first read the liner notes to the CD I thought they were a work of fiction. But perhaps I am missing something. Monica - Original Message - From: "Jean-Marie Poirier" To: "Monica Hall" Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 8:05 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Foscarini Experience > Monica, > > Would that be the picture you are looking for ? > If yes, it's just across the street, VAM ;-) ! > Here's a link with details : > http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O18973/painting-the-ommeganck-in- brussels-on/ > > All the best, > > Jean-Marie > > = > > == En réponse au message du 31-03-2011, 20:54:29 == > >> I came across this CD by the group Foscarini Experience with the title >> "Bon voyage" some time ago.In the liner notes it mentions an >> illustration which features Foscarini on a wagon playing the lute >> together with a girl with a triangle and a violone player which >> apparently dates from 1615 and is part of an illustration of a >> feast >> held for the Archduchess Isabella Clara Eugenia, the wife of the >> Archduke Albert. >> >> >> >> Does anyone know anything about this illustration and whether the >> lutenist is clearly identified as Foscarini. I have done a bit >> of >> surfing the net but haven't found any trace of it. >> >> >> >> Monica >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> >>To get on or off this list see list information at >>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > >
[LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience
Well - as you both already well know - the current level of scholarship is so poor that the elder and younger Saint Jacques generally appear as one. But the real issue is that the real passion and merit of this music is lost by such a generalist approach. ythfo Martyn --- On Thu, 31/3/11, Monica Hall wrote: From: Monica Hall Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience To: "A. J. Ness" Cc: "Lutelist" Date: Thursday, 31 March, 2011, 21:01 Don't even mention Grove - as far as the baroque guitar is concerned it is full of errors. Monica - Original Message - From: "A. J. Ness" <[1]arthurjn...@verizon.net> To: "Monica Hall" <[2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 8:56 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience > That's what makes me angry about the Jacques de Saint-Luc article in New Grove (first ed. and MGG 1963). Musica Rara has puibo. all the Suittes dessus and bassus, andattributres them one by one to three different composers named St.Luc. > - Original Message - From: "Monica Hall" <[3]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> > To: "Monica Hall" <[4]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> > Cc: "Lutelist" <[5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 3:23 PM > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience > > >> Yes - the music is fun and I really enjoyed hearing the solo pieces too - but liner notes are just nonsense. They have just made it all up as a kind of concept to hang the recording on. >> >> Really it's irresponsible - because what they have said is now being repeated as if it were true. >> >> What a world we live in. >> >> Monica >> >> >> ----- Original Message - From: "Monica Hall" <[6]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> >> To: "Eugene C. Braig IV" <[7]brai...@osu.edu> >> Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 8:20 PM >> Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience >> >> >>> >>> - Original Message - From: "Eugene C. Braig IV" <[8]brai...@osu.edu> >>> To: "'Lutelist'" <[9]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> >>> Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 8:12 PM >>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience >>> >>> >>>> I quite like that CD (especially the guitar solos that they opted to record >>>> as solos), but the liner notes do strike me as a bit "whimsical." >>>> >>>> Eugene >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> -Original Message- >>>>> From: [10]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[11]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On >>>>> Behalf Of Monica Hall >>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 3:10 PM >>>>> To: Jean-Marie Poirier >>>>> Cc: Lutelist >>>>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience >>>>> >>>>> Wow - that was quick work. That must be the picture. But is there any >>>>> evidence that the lutenist is Foscarini? >>>>> >>>>> To be honest - when I first read the liner notes to the CD I thought they >>>>> were a work of fiction. But perhaps I am missing something. >>>>> >>>>> Monica >>>>> >>>>> - Original Message - >>>>> From: "Jean-Marie Poirier" <[12]jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr> >>>>> To: "Monica Hall" <[13]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> >>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 8:05 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: [LUTE] Foscarini Experience >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > Monica, >>>>> > >>>>> > Would that be the picture you are looking for ? >>>>> > If yes, it's just across the street, VAM ;-) ! >>>>> > Here's a link with details : >>>>> > [14]http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O18973/painting-the-ommeganck-in- >>>>> brussels-on/ >>>>> > >>>>> > All the best, >>>>> > >>>>> > Jean-Marie >>>>> > >>>>> > = >>>>> > >>>>> > == En reponse au message du 31-03-2011, 20:54:29 ==
[LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience
On 31/03/2011 19:53, Monica Hall wrote: I came across this CD by the group Foscarini Experience with the title "Bon voyage" some time ago. I looked around to see if I could hear some of the tracks as samples. Couldn't find anything but I did find an album by 'Private Musicke' (who played at Edinburgh last year with an opera singer) and there are some samples from this album, Echo de Paris: http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Accent/ACC24173#listen It's interesting that the one solo of Corbetta's and the several of Bartolotti are played actually as solos - very fluently (but perhaps, at the gushing rather than the pinched, end of the spectrum) whereas Foscarini (and Briceno) get a complete makeover. Actually playing through Foscarini you struggle to find anything musically coherent at all - but on this album, his (ahem) music bursts forth as colourful, radiant and beguilingly tuneful. Stuart In the liner notes it mentions an illustration which features Foscarini on a wagon playing the lute together with a girl with a triangle and a violone player which apparently dates from 1615 and is part of an illustration of a feast held for the Archduchess Isabella Clara Eugenia, the wife of the Archduke Albert. Does anyone know anything about this illustration and whether the lutenist is clearly identified as Foscarini. I have done a bit of surfing the net but haven't found any trace of it. Monica -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience
http://www.myspace.com/thefoscariniexperience/music music, pictures Original-Nachricht > Datum: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 22:08:46 +0100 > Von: Stuart Walsh > An: Monica Hall > CC: Lutelist > Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience > On 31/03/2011 19:53, Monica Hall wrote: > > I came across this CD by the group Foscarini Experience with the > title > > "Bon voyage" some time ago. > > > I looked around to see if I could hear some of the tracks as samples. > Couldn't find anything but I did find an album by 'Private Musicke' (who > played at Edinburgh last year with an opera singer) and there are some > samples from this album, Echo de Paris: > > http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Accent/ACC24173#listen > > It's interesting that the one solo of Corbetta's and the several of > Bartolotti are played actually as solos - very fluently (but perhaps, at > the gushing rather than the pinched, end of the spectrum) whereas > Foscarini (and Briceno) get a complete makeover. Actually playing > through Foscarini you struggle to find anything musically coherent at > all - but on this album, his (ahem) music bursts forth as colourful, > radiant and beguilingly tuneful. > > > Stuart > > > > > In the liner notes it mentions an > > illustration which features Foscarini on a wagon playing the lute > > together with a girl with a triangle and a violone player which > > apparently dates from 1615 and is part of an illustration of a > feast > > held for the Archduchess Isabella Clara Eugenia, the wife of the > > Archduke Albert. > > > > > > > > Does anyone know anything about this illustration and whether the > > lutenist is clearly identified as Foscarini. I have done a bit of > > surfing the net but haven't found any trace of it. > > > > > > > > Monica > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > >
[LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience again
On 31/03/2011 22:08, Stuart Walsh wrote: On 31/03/2011 19:53, Monica Hall wrote: I came across this CD by the group Foscarini Experience with the title "Bon voyage" some time ago. I looked around to see if I could hear some of the tracks as samples. Couldn't find anything but I did find an album by 'Private Musicke' (who played at Edinburgh last year with an opera singer) and there are some samples from this album, Echo de Paris: http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Accent/ACC24173#listen It's interesting that the one solo of Corbetta's and the several of Bartolotti are played actually as solos - very fluently (but perhaps, at the gushing rather than the pinched, end of the spectrum) whereas Foscarini (and Briceno) get a complete makeover. Actually playing through Foscarini you struggle to find anything musically coherent at all - but on this album, his (ahem) music bursts forth as colourful, radiant and beguilingly tuneful. (i.e. this is all rather curious...where did all these arrangements come from - and arrangements of what in the first place?) Stuart In the liner notes it mentions an illustration which features Foscarini on a wagon playing the lute together with a girl with a triangle and a violone player which apparently dates from 1615 and is part of an illustration of a feast held for the Archduchess Isabella Clara Eugenia, the wife of the Archduke Albert. Does anyone know anything about this illustration and whether the lutenist is clearly identified as Foscarini. I have done a bit of surfing the net but haven't found any trace of it. Monica -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience again
Well - I've got this CD. The Fosco and Brizeno pieces are their own elaborations of minimal material and the way in which the Corbetta in particular and Bartolotti to some extent are played departs quite a bit from the printed versions. I don't think really these people really make any attempt to play the music in a "historically informed way"..or have any relevant knowledge at all. Everyone is just fooled by their virtuosity. Cynically Monica - Original Message - From: "Stuart Walsh" Cc: "Lutelist" Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 9:06 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience again On 31/03/2011 22:08, Stuart Walsh wrote: On 31/03/2011 19:53, Monica Hall wrote: I came across this CD by the group Foscarini Experience with the title "Bon voyage" some time ago. I looked around to see if I could hear some of the tracks as samples. Couldn't find anything but I did find an album by 'Private Musicke' (who played at Edinburgh last year with an opera singer) and there are some samples from this album, Echo de Paris: http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Accent/ACC24173#listen It's interesting that the one solo of Corbetta's and the several of Bartolotti are played actually as solos - very fluently (but perhaps, at the gushing rather than the pinched, end of the spectrum) whereas Foscarini (and Briceno) get a complete makeover. Actually playing through Foscarini you struggle to find anything musically coherent at all - but on this album, his (ahem) music bursts forth as colourful, radiant and beguilingly tuneful. (i.e. this is all rather curious...where did all these arrangements come from - and arrangements of what in the first place?) Stuart In the liner notes it mentions an illustration which features Foscarini on a wagon playing the lute together with a girl with a triangle and a violone player which apparently dates from 1615 and is part of an illustration of a feast held for the Archduchess Isabella Clara Eugenia, the wife of the Archduke Albert. Does anyone know anything about this illustration and whether the lutenist is clearly identified as Foscarini. I have done a bit of surfing the net but haven't found any trace of it. Monica -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience again
The presence of the soprano sax in this photo suggests that "historically informed" isn't their top priority... [1]http://www.myspace.com/thefoscariniexperience/photos/490584#%7B%22Im ageId%22%3A490584%7D However ... do the printed versions of this music tell the whole story? I was looking recently at the Corbetta 1639 book, kindly made available by Daniel Shoskes on the ning early guitar forum. [2]http://earlyguitar.ning.com/forum/topics/corbetta-first-book-1639 Although all the pieces are for solo guitar, in the introduction he gives instructions 'per accordar quattro Chitarre di Concerto', or how to tune four different sized guitars together. Counting up from the largest, the guitars are a major third, a fourth and a fifth higher. What was the purpose of this instruction? A merry band of guitars all thrashing away together, in what must have been quite a departure from the printed versions. By the way, this book uses alfabeto for a delicious musical acrostic on page 60, spelling out the name of patron CONTE ODOARDO in chord symbols. P On 1 April 2011 09:14, Monica Hall <[3]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote: Well - I've got this CD. The Fosco and Brizeno pieces are their own elaborations of minimal material and the way in which the Corbetta in particular and Bartolotti to some extent are played departs quite a bit from the printed versions. I don't think really these people really make any attempt to play the music in a "historically informed way"..or have any relevant knowledge at all. Everyone is just fooled by their virtuosity. Cynically Monica - Original Message - From: "Stuart Walsh" <[4]s.wa...@ntlworld.com> Cc: "Lutelist" <[5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 9:06 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience again On 31/03/2011 22:08, Stuart Walsh wrote: On 31/03/2011 19:53, Monica Hall wrote: I came across this CD by the group Foscarini Experience with the title "Bon voyage" some time ago. I looked around to see if I could hear some of the tracks as samples. Couldn't find anything but I did find an album by 'Private Musicke' (who played at Edinburgh last year with an opera singer) and there are some samples from this album, Echo de Paris: [6]http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Accent/ACC24173#listen It's interesting that the one solo of Corbetta's and the several of Bartolotti are played actually as solos - very fluently (but perhaps, at the gushing rather than the pinched, end of the spectrum) whereas Foscarini (and Briceno) get a complete makeover. Actually playing through Foscarini you struggle to find anything musically coherent at all - but on this album, his (ahem) music bursts forth as colourful, radiant and beguilingly tuneful. (i.e. this is all rather curious...where did all these arrangements come from - and arrangements of what in the first place?) Stuart In the liner notes it mentions an illustration which features Foscarini on a wagon playing the lute together with a girl with a triangle and a violone player which apparently dates from 1615 and is part of an illustration of a feast held for the Archduchess Isabella Clara Eugenia, the wife of the Archduke Albert. Does anyone know anything about this illustration and whether the lutenist is clearly identified as Foscarini. I have done a bit of surfing the net but haven't found any trace of it. Monica -- To get on or off this list see list information at [7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Peter Martin 24 The Mount St Georges Second Avenue Newcastle under Lyme ST5 8RB tel: 0044 (0)1782 662089 mob: 0044 (0)7971 232614 [8]peter.l...@gmail.com -- References 1. http://www.myspace.com/thefoscariniexperience/photos/490584#%7B%22ImageId%22%3A490584%7D 2. http://earlyguitar.ning.com/forum/topics/corbetta-first-book-1639 3. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 4. mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com 5. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 6. http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Accent/ACC24173#listen 7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 8. mailto:peter.l...@gmail.com
[LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience again
Well - yes. There are also instructions for tuning 3 guitars to play in
consort together with a few piece in alfabeto in Foscarini's "Libro secondo"
(which he has copied from Colonna). Costanza's book has pieces for 4
guitars. And Carbonchi has gone to the limits and gives instructions for
tuning guitars to 12 different pitches.
So I suppose there must have been occasions when players did sit round
thrashing away together. What and how they played is another matter. The
surviving pieces suggest they all played the same thing in different
registers.
But another reason for including these instructions and pieces in different
keys is to illustrate how the music can be transposed - useful when
accompanying a voice part.
And there is no mention of triangles, tambourines or violones, never mind
saxophones.
Monica
- Original Message -
From: "Peter Martin"
To: "Lutelist"
Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 9:49 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience again
The presence of the soprano sax in this photo suggests that
"historically informed" isn't their top priority...
[1]http://www.myspace.com/thefoscariniexperience/photos/490584#%7B%22Im
ageId%22%3A490584%7D
However ... do the printed versions of this music tell the whole story?
I was looking recently at the Corbetta 1639 book, kindly made
available by Daniel Shoskes on the ning early guitar forum.
[2]http://earlyguitar.ning.com/forum/topics/corbetta-first-book-1639
Although all the pieces are for solo guitar, in the introduction he
gives instructions 'per accordar quattro Chitarre di Concerto', or how
to tune four different sized guitars together. Counting up from the
largest, the guitars are a major third, a fourth and a fifth higher.
What was the purpose of this instruction? A merry band of guitars all
thrashing away together, in what must have been quite a departure from
the printed versions.
By the way, this book uses alfabeto for a delicious musical acrostic
on page 60, spelling out the name of patron CONTE ODOARDO in chord
symbols.
P
On 1 April 2011 09:14, Monica Hall <[3]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
Well - I've got this CD. The Fosco and Brizeno pieces are their
own elaborations of minimal material and the way in which the
Corbetta in particular and Bartolotti to some extent are played
departs quite a bit from the printed versions.
I don't think really these people really make any attempt to play
the music in a "historically informed way"..or have any relevant
knowledge at all.
Everyone is just fooled by their virtuosity.
Cynically
Monica
- Original Message - From: "Stuart Walsh"
<[4]s.wa...@ntlworld.com>
Cc: "Lutelist" <[5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 9:06 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience again
On 31/03/2011 22:08, Stuart Walsh wrote:
On 31/03/2011 19:53, Monica Hall wrote:
I came across this CD by the group Foscarini Experience with the
title
"Bon voyage" some time ago.
I looked around to see if I could hear some of the tracks as
samples. Couldn't find anything but I did find an album by 'Private
Musicke' (who played at Edinburgh last year with an opera singer)
and there are some samples from this album, Echo de Paris:
[6]http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Accent/ACC24173#listen
It's interesting that the one solo of Corbetta's and the several of
Bartolotti are played actually as solos - very fluently (but
perhaps, at the gushing rather than the pinched, end of the
spectrum) whereas Foscarini (and Briceno) get a complete makeover.
Actually playing through Foscarini you struggle to find anything
musically coherent at all - but on this album, his (ahem) music
bursts forth as colourful, radiant and beguilingly tuneful.
(i.e. this is all rather curious...where did all these arrangements
come from - and arrangements of what in the first place?)
Stuart
In the liner notes it mentions an
illustration which features Foscarini on a wagon playing the lute
together with a girl with a triangle and a violone player which
apparently dates from 1615 and is part of an illustration of a
feast
held for the Archduchess Isabella Clara Eugenia, the wife of the
Archduke Albert.
Does anyone know anything about this illustration and whether the
lutenist is clearly identified as Foscarini. I have done a bit
of
surfing the net but haven't found any trace of it.
Monica
--
To get on or off this list see list information at
[7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
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Peter Martin
24 The Mount St Georges
Second Ave
[LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience again
On 01/04/2011 09:14, Monica Hall wrote:
Well - I've got this CD. The Fosco and Brizeno pieces are their
own elaborations of minimal material and the way in which the
Corbetta in particular and Bartolotti to some extent are played
departs quite a bit from the printed versions.
I don't think really these people really make any attempt to play
the music in a "historically informed way"..or have any relevant
knowledge at all.
Everyone is just fooled by their virtuosity.
Cynically
Monica
Music like this can, undoubtedly, be very attractive and probably goes
down very well with audiences. What more could skilled musicians want
than to play music very well and dazzle audiences?
Perhaps this genre - of creating imaginative (and imaginary)
arrangements of early music - should have a specific name. It's a form
of contemporary music because it's musicians of our time creating it.
But it's quite different from early music set by modern composers using
modern rhythms and harmonies.
But this quote from the Echo de Paris album:
"Foscarini's remarkably delicate Zarabande brings to an end what is
such an enjoyable recital." International Record Review, May 2007
is problematic if the Zarabande, as they play it, bears little
resemblance to what exists in Foscarini. On the other hand, to say that
Pierrre Pitzl's re-imagining of a Foscarini piece is remarkably
delicate etc etc, seems fine.
Stuart
- Original Message - From: "Stuart Walsh"
[1]
Cc: "Lutelist" [2]
Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 9:06 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience again
On 31/03/2011 22:08, Stuart Walsh wrote:
On 31/03/2011 19:53, Monica Hall wrote:
I came across this CD by the group Foscarini Experience with
the title
"Bon voyage" some time ago.
I looked around to see if I could hear some of the tracks as
samples. Couldn't find anything but I did find an album by 'Private
Musicke' (who played at Edinburgh last year with an opera singer)
and there are some samples from this album, Echo de Paris:
[3]http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Accent/ACC24173#listen
It's interesting that the one solo of Corbetta's and the several of
Bartolotti are played actually as solos - very fluently (but
perhaps, at the gushing rather than the pinched, end of the
spectrum) whereas Foscarini (and Briceno) get a complete makeover.
Actually playing through Foscarini you struggle to find anything
musically coherent at all - but on this album, his (ahem) music
bursts forth as colourful, radiant and beguilingly tuneful.
(i.e. this is all rather curious...where did all these arrangements
come from - and arrangements of what in the first place?)
Stuart
In the liner notes it mentions an
illustration which features Foscarini on a wagon playing the
lute
together with a girl with a triangle and a violone player which
apparently dates from 1615 and is part of an illustration of a
feast
held for the Archduchess Isabella Clara Eugenia, the wife of the
Archduke Albert.
Does anyone know anything about this illustration and whether
the
lutenist is clearly identified as Foscarini. I have done a bit
of
surfing the net but haven't found any trace of it.
Monica
--
To get on or off this list see list information at
[4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
1. mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com
2. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
3. http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Accent/ACC24173#listen
4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience again
Music like this can, undoubtedly, be very attractive and probably goes down very well with audiences. What more could skilled musicians want than to play music very well and dazzle audiences? Perhaps this genre - of creating imaginative (and imaginary) arrangements of early music - should have a specific name. It's a form of contemporary music because it's musicians of our time creating it. But it's quite different from early music set by modern composers using modern rhythms and harmonies. But this quote from the Echo de Paris album: "Foscarini's remarkably delicate Zarabande brings to an end what is such an enjoyable recital." International Record Review, May 2007 is problematic if the Zarabande, as they play it, bears little resemblance to what exists in Foscarini. On the other hand, to say that Pierrre Pitzl's re-imagining of a Foscarini piece is remarkably delicate etc etc, seems fine. You have summed up my feelings admirably. There is nothing wrong with them taking the music and using it to create their own entirely original versions of it. What I think they should make clear is that this is what they are doing. They shouldn't give a completely false impression of what the music is really like and what the sources etc. indicate. Of course it's perhaps not the fault of the Foscarini Experience if people are naive enough to believe what they have said in the liner notes. I would have thought that the name of the group would have given that away straightaway. But in the end it just creates confusion. Monica Stuart - Original Message - From: "Stuart Walsh" [1] Cc: "Lutelist" [2] Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 9:06 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience again On 31/03/2011 22:08, Stuart Walsh wrote: On 31/03/2011 19:53, Monica Hall wrote: I came across this CD by the group Foscarini Experience with the title "Bon voyage" some time ago. I looked around to see if I could hear some of the tracks as samples. Couldn't find anything but I did find an album by 'Private Musicke' (who played at Edinburgh last year with an opera singer) and there are some samples from this album, Echo de Paris: [3]http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Accent/ACC24173#listen It's interesting that the one solo of Corbetta's and the several of Bartolotti are played actually as solos - very fluently (but perhaps, at the gushing rather than the pinched, end of the spectrum) whereas Foscarini (and Briceno) get a complete makeover. Actually playing through Foscarini you struggle to find anything musically coherent at all - but on this album, his (ahem) music bursts forth as colourful, radiant and beguilingly tuneful. (i.e. this is all rather curious...where did all these arrangements come from - and arrangements of what in the first place?) Stuart In the liner notes it mentions an illustration which features Foscarini on a wagon playing the lute together with a girl with a triangle and a violone player which apparently dates from 1615 and is part of an illustration of a feast held for the Archduchess Isabella Clara Eugenia, the wife of the Archduke Albert. Does anyone know anything about this illustration and whether the lutenist is clearly identified as Foscarini. I have done a bit of surfing the net but haven't found any trace of it. Monica -- To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com 2. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Accent/ACC24173#listen 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience again
But this quote from the Echo de Paris album: "Foscarini's remarkably delicate Zarabande brings to an end what is such an enjoyable recital." International Record Review, May 2007 is problematic if the Zarabande, as they play it, bears little resemblance to what exists in Foscarini. I dug out the CD. The piece is on p.120 of Fosco's book. What Pitzl plays first on his own does resemble what appears in Fosco more or less but the variation which follows when the others join in doesn't although it may be inspired by the Redopre della Corrente which follows. In a way they are not taking credit for what they are contributing themselves. Strange world really. What the uninitiated don't perhaps understand is how sketchy the original sources are Monica - Original Message - From: "Stuart Walsh" [1] Cc: "Lutelist" [2] Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 9:06 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience again On 31/03/2011 22:08, Stuart Walsh wrote: On 31/03/2011 19:53, Monica Hall wrote: I came across this CD by the group Foscarini Experience with the title "Bon voyage" some time ago. I looked around to see if I could hear some of the tracks as samples. Couldn't find anything but I did find an album by 'Private Musicke' (who played at Edinburgh last year with an opera singer) and there are some samples from this album, Echo de Paris: [3]http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Accent/ACC24173#listen It's interesting that the one solo of Corbetta's and the several of Bartolotti are played actually as solos - very fluently (but perhaps, at the gushing rather than the pinched, end of the spectrum) whereas Foscarini (and Briceno) get a complete makeover. Actually playing through Foscarini you struggle to find anything musically coherent at all - but on this album, his (ahem) music bursts forth as colourful, radiant and beguilingly tuneful. (i.e. this is all rather curious...where did all these arrangements come from - and arrangements of what in the first place?) Stuart In the liner notes it mentions an illustration which features Foscarini on a wagon playing the lute together with a girl with a triangle and a violone player which apparently dates from 1615 and is part of an illustration of a feast held for the Archduchess Isabella Clara Eugenia, the wife of the Archduke Albert. Does anyone know anything about this illustration and whether the lutenist is clearly identified as Foscarini. I have done a bit of surfing the net but haven't found any trace of it. Monica -- To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com 2. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Accent/ACC24173#listen 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience again
--- On Fri, 4/1/11, Monica Hall wrote: > > I don't think really these people really make any attempt > to play the music in a "historically informed way"..or have > any relevant knowledge at all. > > Everyone is just fooled by their virtuosity. > > Cynically > > Monica > I think we have to make a distinction between the scholarly side of things and the artistic aspect. "Historically informed" is not a very helpful critical term. Deciding who is "historically informed-er" tells us little about the artistic worth of the performance. I don't think it is necessarily invalid for a performer, in light of scant historical evidence, to bring in aspects of performance done is accord with modern principles (i.e. improvisation) as a substitute for essential subjects treated only ambiguously in the texts. After all, if you're one of the well-respected harpsichord players in any number of baroque ensembles, they call this sort of thing "great continuo playing." Chris Christopher Wilke Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com > > - Original Message ----- From: "Stuart Walsh" > Cc: "Lutelist" > Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 9:06 AM > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience again > > > > On 31/03/2011 22:08, Stuart Walsh wrote: > >> On 31/03/2011 19:53, Monica Hall wrote: > >>> I came across this > CD by the group Foscarini Experience with the title > >>> "Bon voyage" some time > ago. > >> > >> > >> I looked around to see if I could hear some of the > tracks as samples. Couldn't find anything but I did find an > album by 'Private Musicke' (who played at Edinburgh last > year with an opera singer) and there are some samples from > this album, Echo de Paris: > >> > >> http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Accent/ACC24173#listen > >> > >> It's interesting that the one solo of Corbetta's > and the several of Bartolotti are played actually as solos - > very fluently (but perhaps, at the gushing rather than the > pinched, end of the spectrum) whereas Foscarini (and > Briceno) get a complete makeover. Actually playing through > Foscarini you struggle to find anything musically coherent > at all - but on this album, his (ahem) music bursts > forth as colourful, radiant and beguilingly tuneful. > > > > (i.e. this is all rather curious...where did all these > arrangements come from - and arrangements of what in the > first place?) > >> > >> > >> Stuart > >> > >> > >> > >>> In the liner notes it > mentions an > >>> illustration which > features Foscarini on a wagon playing the lute > >>> together with a girl > with a triangle and a violone player which > >>> apparently dates from > 1615 and is part of an illustration of a feast > >>> held for the > Archduchess Isabella Clara Eugenia, the wife of the > >>> Archduke Albert. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Does anyone know > anything about this illustration and whether the > >>> lutenist is clearly > identified as Foscarini. I have done a bit of > >>> surfing the net but > haven't found any trace of it. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Monica > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> > >>> > >>> To get on or off this list see list > information at > >>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >>> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience again
> -Original Message- > From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On > Behalf Of Monica Hall > Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 7:16 AM > To: Stuart Walsh > Cc: Lutelist > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience again > > > But this quote from the Echo de Paris album: > > "Foscarini's remarkably delicate Zarabande brings to an end what is > > such an enjoyable recital." International Record Review, May 2007 > > is problematic if the Zarabande, as they play it, bears little > > resemblance to what exists in Foscarini. > > I dug out the CD. The piece is on p.120 of Fosco's book. What Pitzl > plays > first on his own does resemble what appears in Fosco more or less but the > variation which follows when the others join in doesn't although it may be > inspired by the Redopre della Corrente which follows. > > In a way they are not taking credit for what they are contributing > themselves. Strange world really. What the uninitiated don't perhaps > understand is how sketchy the original sources are > > Monica [Eugene C. Braig IV] I suppose not so strange and not so different than Kreisler, Giazotto, Vasilov, Segovia/Ponce, etc. ad nauseam foisting "discoveries" (of their own concoction) in ancient music on the world. I suppose the biggest difference is that this new breed is more performance-/interpretation-driven and often has a wee nugget of actual early composition somewhere at the core. Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
