[LUTE] Re: Gut strings - The elephant in the room
The overall incidence of Polycythemia Vera in the Minnesota population is 1.9 per 100,000 person-years. Nowhere near the incidence of lutenism. RT On 12/1/2012 10:47 PM, Dan Winheld wrote: On 12/1/2012 7:20 PM, Edward Martin wrote: Blood letting? It still works as the primary therapy for Polycythemia Vera. Kindly translate for us layluters, please- is it worse than Lachrimae Vera? ed At 12:00 PM 12/1/2012, Dan Winheld wrote: On 12/1/2012 5:07 AM, Roman Turovsky wrote: On 12/1/2012 3:30 AM, William Samson wrote: After all, what we are seeking is true authenticity (aren't we?) rather than a sanitised version. Actually, yes. Our friends the leeches have been getting a second look from some nostalgic medical researchers in recent years- including, of course, a look at blood letting itself (apparently draining off a little of the high-cholesterol excess from the overfed overweight has had its health benefits). In fact, leeches were always available from some pharmacies in poor neighborhoods in Philadelphia when we lived there back in the 70'S. (1970's!) I prefer bleeding from more traditional manly pursuits- steel-string guitar playing using sharp objects around the house. My wife has a fondness for dull paring knives. Anyone for a rousing chorus of Le Tableaux de l'Operation de la Taille by our famous 18th century medical survivor Marin Marais? Dan Including medical bloodletting etc.? RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com voice: (218) 728-1202 http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871ref=name http://www.myspace.com/edslute http://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martin
[LUTE] Re: Gut strings - The elephant in the room
Thanks for the link, Dan. A fascinating insight - particularly the early stages (that I'd never want to be involved in). I would guess that the double-twist process has a lot to do with Gamut's basses being flexible. One thing that troubles me about the manufacture of gut nowadays is that 19th and 20th century technologies are being used to avoid false strings and to polish them into perfect uniformity. These technologies were not available to the gut makers of the 16th, 17th and 18th centuries. Shouldn't some string maker be making strings that are as close to the originals as possible, warts and all? After all, what we are seeking is true authenticity (aren't we?) rather than a sanitised version. I do understand, of course, that this would be not be commercially viable for a small organisation making their living from the manufacture and sale of strings - even today most lute players would buy overwound basses rather than the more authentic gut ones - even if price was no barrier. I wonder if there are any amateur string makers out there endeavouring to work through the process from abbatoire to finished product avoiding technologies that post-date the 18th century? As with lute making, it is often the amateur who will be the first to stick their neck out and build non-mainstream (but authentic) instruments that eventually find their way into the mainstream. Kind regards, Bill From: Dan Winheld dwinh...@lmi.net To: William Samson willsam...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, 1 December 2012, 5:15 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Gut strings - The elephant in the room 'I'm not too familiar with Gamut's terminology. I know that Mace describes pistoys as none other than thick Venice-Catlins, which are commonly dyed, with a deep dark red colour. Is that the case?' Possibly- except that Dan uses no dyes. Plain gutty looking gut, except for the twists, looks like the others in color, here's his gut page: [1]http://gamutmusic.squarespace.com/making-gut-stings/ Dan On 11/30/2012 12:47 PM, William Samson wrote: Thanks Dan, That's encouraging. I don't think we should be content with flexibility in just the basses, though. It may or may not be so important for the trebles and means, but the old trebles and means were indeed flexible and I think lute string makers should be trying to emulate this throughout the range. When any strings I order come in the form of 'bundles of knots', I'll feel we're approaching something like what the old ones were doing. I'm not too familiar with Gamut's terminology. I know that Mace describes pistoys as none other than thick Venice-Catlins, which are commonly dyed, with a deep dark red colour. Is that the case? It looks like things are indeed progressing. Bill From: Dan Winheld [2]dwinh...@lmi.net To: William Samson [3]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Lute List [4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, 30 November 2012, 19:10 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Gut strings - The elephant in the room Bill- In fact, some of the string makers are well aware of the stiffness factor; and have been trying to cope with it, and are coming up with increasingly flexible bass (where of course it matters most) strings. I have recently been able to go to an all gut Pistoy of Dan Larson for the 8th course fundamental of my Renaissance lute. About 63 cm, nominal G tenor, AA5, about 1.74 mm diameter string. Very flexible, no problems at all tying it around on the bridge, unlike so many previous attempts with gut or gut substitute strings of this thickness. And it sounds fabulous. With a 9 or 10 course lute of the right size and of this quality in string and instrument I would have no hesitation going down to the low C fundamental. I believe Mimmo Peruffo has also been trying to tame the elephant. Dan On 11/30/2012 10:30 AM, William Samson wrote: Looking at all the discussion we've been having about gut strings - to load, or not to load, to wind or not to wind, to twist or not to twist . . . - one thing that hasn't come up for a while is how different modern gut seems to be from the old stuff. When you look at old pictures showing gut being used to string a lute, or the loose ends of gut hanging from a pegbox, it's clear that it was much softer stuff than the wire-like gut we have today. For a start it came in hanks. Try tying modern gut in a hank and it would look like crap when you unravel it - kinked, cracked
[LUTE] Re: Gut strings - The elephant in the room
Is that what you are looking for? http://www.pure-corde.com/en/about-the-strings/ Regards Stephan Am 01.12.2012, 09:30 Uhr, schrieb William Samson willsam...@yahoo.co.uk: Thanks for the link, Dan. A fascinating insight - particularly the early stages (that I'd never want to be involved in). I would guess that the double-twist process has a lot to do with Gamut's basses being flexible. One thing that troubles me about the manufacture of gut nowadays is that 19th and 20th century technologies are being used to avoid false strings and to polish them into perfect uniformity. These technologies were not available to the gut makers of the 16th, 17th and 18th centuries. Shouldn't some string maker be making strings that are as close to the originals as possible, warts and all? After all, what we are seeking is true authenticity (aren't we?) rather than a sanitised version. I do understand, of course, that this would be not be commercially viable for a small organisation making their living from the manufacture and sale of strings - even today most lute players would buy overwound basses rather than the more authentic gut ones - even if price was no barrier. I wonder if there are any amateur string makers out there endeavouring to work through the process from abbatoire to finished product avoiding technologies that post-date the 18th century? As with lute making, it is often the amateur who will be the first to stick their neck out and build non-mainstream (but authentic) instruments that eventually find their way into the mainstream. Kind regards, Bill From: Dan Winheld dwinh...@lmi.net To: William Samson willsam...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, 1 December 2012, 5:15 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Gut strings - The elephant in the room 'I'm not too familiar with Gamut's terminology. I know that Mace describes pistoys as none other than thick Venice-Catlins, which are commonly dyed, with a deep dark red colour. Is that the case?' Possibly- except that Dan uses no dyes. Plain gutty looking gut, except for the twists, looks like the others in color, here's his gut page: [1]http://gamutmusic.squarespace.com/making-gut-stings/ Dan On 11/30/2012 12:47 PM, William Samson wrote: Thanks Dan, That's encouraging. I don't think we should be content with flexibility in just the basses, though. It may or may not be so important for the trebles and means, but the old trebles and means were indeed flexible and I think lute string makers should be trying to emulate this throughout the range. When any strings I order come in the form of 'bundles of knots', I'll feel we're approaching something like what the old ones were doing. I'm not too familiar with Gamut's terminology. I know that Mace describes pistoys as none other than thick Venice-Catlins, which are commonly dyed, with a deep dark red colour. Is that the case? It looks like things are indeed progressing. Bill From: Dan Winheld [2]dwinh...@lmi.net To: William Samson [3]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Lute List [4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, 30 November 2012, 19:10 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Gut strings - The elephant in the room Bill- In fact, some of the string makers are well aware of the stiffness factor; and have been trying to cope with it, and are coming up with increasingly flexible bass (where of course it matters most) strings. I have recently been able to go to an all gut Pistoy of Dan Larson for the 8th course fundamental of my Renaissance lute. About 63 cm, nominal G tenor, AA5, about 1.74 mm diameter string. Very flexible, no problems at all tying it around on the bridge, unlike so many previous attempts with gut or gut substitute strings of this thickness. And it sounds fabulous. With a 9 or 10 course lute of the right size and of this quality in string and instrument I would have no hesitation going down to the low C fundamental. I believe Mimmo Peruffo has also been trying to tame the elephant. Dan On 11/30/2012 10:30 AM, William Samson wrote: Looking at all the discussion we've been having about gut strings - to load, or not to load, to wind or not to wind, to twist or not to twist . . . - one thing that hasn't come up for a while is how different modern gut seems to be from the old stuff. When you look at old pictures showing gut being used to string a lute, or the loose ends of gut hanging from a pegbox, it's clear that it was much softer stuff than the wire-like gut we have
[LUTE] Re: Gut strings - The elephant in the room
Mimmo Peruffo (Aquila strings) and Nicholas Baldock have done work on softer strings. MH --- On Fri, 30/11/12, William Samson willsam...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: From: William Samson willsam...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: [LUTE] Gut strings - The elephant in the room To: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, 30 November, 2012, 18:30 Looking at all the discussion we've been having about gut strings - to load, or not to load, to wind or not to wind, to twist or not to twist . . . - one thing that hasn't come up for a while is how different modern gut seems to be from the old stuff. When you look at old pictures showing gut being used to string a lute, or the loose ends of gut hanging from a pegbox, it's clear that it was much softer stuff than the wire-like gut we have today. For a start it came in hanks. Try tying modern gut in a hank and it would look like crap when you unravel it - kinked, cracked, opaque . . . I have no knowledge of the differences between the manufacturing process for modern gut and that used long ago, but it must have been quite different. What difference would stiffness make? One possible difference is inharmonicity - the tendency of harmonics to be sharper in stiffer strings. This is something that piano tuners have to allow for routinely - because of the stiff wire strings. That's just a guess, though, and we won't know for sure until somebody makes old-style soft gut and performs a comparison. I'd have thought this would be a fairly straightforward thing for gut makers to do. Maybe somebody has already done it? Bill -- To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Gut strings - The elephant in the room
Blood letting? It still works as the primary therapy for Polycythemia Vera. ed At 12:00 PM 12/1/2012, Dan Winheld wrote: On 12/1/2012 5:07 AM, Roman Turovsky wrote: On 12/1/2012 3:30 AM, William Samson wrote: After all, what we are seeking is true authenticity (aren't we?) rather than a sanitised version. Actually, yes. Our friends the leeches have been getting a second look from some nostalgic medical researchers in recent years- including, of course, a look at blood letting itself (apparently draining off a little of the high-cholesterol excess from the overfed overweight has had its health benefits). In fact, leeches were always available from some pharmacies in poor neighborhoods in Philadelphia when we lived there back in the 70'S. (1970's!) I prefer bleeding from more traditional manly pursuits- steel-string guitar playing using sharp objects around the house. My wife has a fondness for dull paring knives. Anyone for a rousing chorus of Le Tableaux de l'Operation de la Taille by our famous 18th century medical survivor Marin Marais? Dan Including medical bloodletting etc.? RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com voice: (218) 728-1202 http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871ref=name http://www.myspace.com/edslute http://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martin
[LUTE] Re: Gut strings - The elephant in the room
On 12/1/2012 7:20 PM, Edward Martin wrote: Blood letting? It still works as the primary therapy for Polycythemia Vera. Kindly translate for us layluters, please- is it worse than Lachrimae Vera? ed At 12:00 PM 12/1/2012, Dan Winheld wrote: On 12/1/2012 5:07 AM, Roman Turovsky wrote: On 12/1/2012 3:30 AM, William Samson wrote: After all, what we are seeking is true authenticity (aren't we?) rather than a sanitised version. Actually, yes. Our friends the leeches have been getting a second look from some nostalgic medical researchers in recent years- including, of course, a look at blood letting itself (apparently draining off a little of the high-cholesterol excess from the overfed overweight has had its health benefits). In fact, leeches were always available from some pharmacies in poor neighborhoods in Philadelphia when we lived there back in the 70'S. (1970's!) I prefer bleeding from more traditional manly pursuits- steel-string guitar playing using sharp objects around the house. My wife has a fondness for dull paring knives. Anyone for a rousing chorus of Le Tableaux de l'Operation de la Taille by our famous 18th century medical survivor Marin Marais? Dan Including medical bloodletting etc.? RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com voice: (218) 728-1202 http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871ref=name http://www.myspace.com/edslute http://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martin
[LUTE] Re: Gut strings - The elephant in the room
Much worse. It is a condition where the body makes too many red cells, and the treatment is to remove blood periodically. Otherwise, many complications. It is the only condition that I know of, where actual blood-letting is an accepted, effective treatment. Those authentic barbers from the past were on to something At 09:47 PM 12/1/2012, Dan Winheld wrote: On 12/1/2012 7:20 PM, Edward Martin wrote: Blood letting? It still works as the primary therapy for Polycythemia Vera. Kindly translate for us layluters, please- is it worse than Lachrimae Vera? ed At 12:00 PM 12/1/2012, Dan Winheld wrote: On 12/1/2012 5:07 AM, Roman Turovsky wrote: On 12/1/2012 3:30 AM, William Samson wrote: After all, what we are seeking is true authenticity (aren't we?) rather than a sanitised version. Actually, yes. Our friends the leeches have been getting a second look from some nostalgic medical researchers in recent years- including, of course, a look at blood letting itself (apparently draining off a little of the high-cholesterol excess from the overfed overweight has had its health benefits). In fact, leeches were always available from some pharmacies in poor neighborhoods in Philadelphia when we lived there back in the 70'S. (1970's!) I prefer bleeding from more traditional manly pursuits- steel-string guitar playing using sharp objects around the house. My wife has a fondness for dull paring knives. Anyone for a rousing chorus of Le Tableaux de l'Operation de la Taille by our famous 18th century medical survivor Marin Marais? Dan Including medical bloodletting etc.? RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com voice: (218) 728-1202 http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871ref=name http://www.myspace.com/edslute http://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martin Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com voice: (218) 728-1202 http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871ref=name http://www.myspace.com/edslute http://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martin
[LUTE] Re: Gut strings - The elephant in the room
Bill- In fact, some of the string makers are well aware of the stiffness factor; and have been trying to cope with it, and are coming up with increasingly flexible bass (where of course it matters most) strings. I have recently been able to go to an all gut Pistoy of Dan Larson for the 8th course fundamental of my Renaissance lute. About 63 cm, nominal G tenor, A=415, about 1.74 mm diameter string. Very flexible, no problems at all tying it around on the bridge, unlike so many previous attempts with gut or gut substitute strings of this thickness. And it sounds fabulous. With a 9 or 10 course lute of the right size and of this quality in string and instrument I would have no hesitation going down to the low C fundamental. I believe Mimmo Peruffo has also been trying to tame the elephant. Dan On 11/30/2012 10:30 AM, William Samson wrote: Looking at all the discussion we've been having about gut strings - to load, or not to load, to wind or not to wind, to twist or not to twist . . . - one thing that hasn't come up for a while is how different modern gut seems to be from the old stuff. When you look at old pictures showing gut being used to string a lute, or the loose ends of gut hanging from a pegbox, it's clear that it was much softer stuff than the wire-like gut we have today. For a start it came in hanks. Try tying modern gut in a hank and it would look like crap when you unravel it - kinked, cracked, opaque . . . I have no knowledge of the differences between the manufacturing process for modern gut and that used long ago, but it must have been quite different. What difference would stiffness make? One possible difference is inharmonicity - the tendency of harmonics to be sharper in stiffer strings. This is something that piano tuners have to allow for routinely - because of the stiff wire strings. That's just a guess, though, and we won't know for sure until somebody makes old-style soft gut and performs a comparison. I'd have thought this would be a fairly straightforward thing for gut makers to do. Maybe somebody has already done it? Bill -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Gut strings - The elephant in the room
Thanks Dan, That's encouraging. I don't think we should be content with flexibility in just the basses, though. It may or may not be so important for the trebles and means, but the old trebles and means were indeed flexible and I think lute string makers should be trying to emulate this throughout the range. When any strings I order come in the form of 'bundles of knots', I'll feel we're approaching something like what the old ones were doing. I'm not too familiar with Gamut's terminology. I know that Mace describes pistoys as none other than thick Venice-Catlins, which are commonly dyed, with a deep dark red colour. Is that the case? It looks like things are indeed progressing. Bill From: Dan Winheld dwinh...@lmi.net To: William Samson willsam...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, 30 November 2012, 19:10 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Gut strings - The elephant in the room Bill- In fact, some of the string makers are well aware of the stiffness factor; and have been trying to cope with it, and are coming up with increasingly flexible bass (where of course it matters most) strings. I have recently been able to go to an all gut Pistoy of Dan Larson for the 8th course fundamental of my Renaissance lute. About 63 cm, nominal G tenor, AA5, about 1.74 mm diameter string. Very flexible, no problems at all tying it around on the bridge, unlike so many previous attempts with gut or gut substitute strings of this thickness. And it sounds fabulous. With a 9 or 10 course lute of the right size and of this quality in string and instrument I would have no hesitation going down to the low C fundamental. I believe Mimmo Peruffo has also been trying to tame the elephant. Dan On 11/30/2012 10:30 AM, William Samson wrote: Looking at all the discussion we've been having about gut strings - to load, or not to load, to wind or not to wind, to twist or not to twist . . . - one thing that hasn't come up for a while is how different modern gut seems to be from the old stuff. When you look at old pictures showing gut being used to string a lute, or the loose ends of gut hanging from a pegbox, it's clear that it was much softer stuff than the wire-like gut we have today. For a start it came in hanks. Try tying modern gut in a hank and it would look like crap when you unravel it - kinked, cracked, opaque . . . I have no knowledge of the differences between the manufacturing process for modern gut and that used long ago, but it must have been quite different. What difference would stiffness make? One possible difference is inharmonicity - the tendency of harmonics to be sharper in stiffer strings. This is something that piano tuners have to allow for routinely - because of the stiff wire strings. That's just a guess, though, and we won't know for sure until somebody makes old-style soft gut and performs a comparison. I'd have thought this would be a fairly straightforward thing for gut makers to do. Maybe somebody has already done it? Bill -- To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Gut strings - The elephant in the room
I also use Pitoys by Dan Larson. I have a 67.5 cm 11-course lute, tuned in a = 415. For the 11-th course, a low C, I use a 2.04 Pistoy. I use -no-metal anywhere on this lute. It is fabulous, and i actually like it better than wound, loaded, or gimped for that course. And yes, it is very flexible because of the twist, and it also has excellent intonation. ed At 02:47 PM 11/30/2012, William Samson wrote: Thanks Dan, That's encouraging. I don't think we should be content with flexibility in just the basses, though. It may or may not be so important for the trebles and means, but the old trebles and means were indeed flexible and I think lute string makers should be trying to emulate this throughout the range. When any strings I order come in the form of 'bundles of knots', I'll feel we're approaching something like what the old ones were doing. I'm not too familiar with Gamut's terminology. I know that Mace describes pistoys as none other than thick Venice-Catlins, which are commonly dyed, with a deep dark red colour. Is that the case? It looks like things are indeed progressing. Bill From: Dan Winheld dwinh...@lmi.net To: William Samson willsam...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, 30 November 2012, 19:10 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Gut strings - The elephant in the room Bill- In fact, some of the string makers are well aware of the stiffness factor; and have been trying to cope with it, and are coming up with increasingly flexible bass (where of course it matters most) strings. I have recently been able to go to an all gut Pistoy of Dan Larson for the 8th course fundamental of my Renaissance lute. About 63 cm, nominal G tenor, AA5, about 1.74 mm diameter string. Very flexible, no problems at all tying it around on the bridge, unlike so many previous attempts with gut or gut substitute strings of this thickness. And it sounds fabulous. With a 9 or 10 course lute of the right size and of this quality in string and instrument I would have no hesitation going down to the low C fundamental. I believe Mimmo Peruffo has also been trying to tame the elephant. Dan On 11/30/2012 10:30 AM, William Samson wrote: Looking at all the discussion we've been having about gut strings - to load, or not to load, to wind or not to wind, to twist or not to twist . . . - one thing that hasn't come up for a while is how different modern gut seems to be from the old stuff. When you look at old pictures showing gut being used to string a lute, or the loose ends of gut hanging from a pegbox, it's clear that it was much softer stuff than the wire-like gut we have today. For a start it came in hanks. Try tying modern gut in a hank and it would look like crap when you unravel it - kinked, cracked, opaque . . . I have no knowledge of the differences between the manufacturing process for modern gut and that used long ago, but it must have been quite different. What difference would stiffness make? One possible difference is inharmonicity - the tendency of harmonics to be sharper in stiffer strings. This is something that piano tuners have to allow for routinely - because of the stiff wire strings. That's just a guess, though, and we won't know for sure until somebody makes old-style soft gut and performs a comparison. I'd have thought this would be a fairly straightforward thing for gut makers to do. Maybe somebody has already done it? Bill -- To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com voice: (218) 728-1202 http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871ref=name http://www.myspace.com/edslute http://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martin
[LUTE] Re: Gut strings - The elephant in the room
Same here on an 11-course B-lute and 6-, 8- and 10-course R-lutes: Pistoys on the basses, no metal. On 30 November 2012 22:10, Edward Martin e...@gamutstrings.com wrote: I also use Pitoys by Dan Larson. I have a 67.5 cm 11-course lute, tuned in a = 415. For the 11-th course, a low C, I use a 2.04 Pistoy. I use -no-metal anywhere on this lute. It is fabulous, and i actually like it better than wound, loaded, or gimped for that course. And yes, it is very flexible because of the twist, and it also has excellent intonation. ed At 02:47 PM 11/30/2012, William Samson wrote: Thanks Dan, That's encouraging. I don't think we should be content with flexibility in just the basses, though. It may or may not be so important for the trebles and means, but the old trebles and means were indeed flexible and I think lute string makers should be trying to emulate this throughout the range. When any strings I order come in the form of 'bundles of knots', I'll feel we're approaching something like what the old ones were doing. I'm not too familiar with Gamut's terminology. I know that Mace describes pistoys as none other than thick Venice-Catlins, which are commonly dyed, with a deep dark red colour. Is that the case? It looks like things are indeed progressing. Bill From: Dan Winheld dwinh...@lmi.net To: William Samson willsam...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, 30 November 2012, 19:10 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Gut strings - The elephant in the room Bill- In fact, some of the string makers are well aware of the stiffness factor; and have been trying to cope with it, and are coming up with increasingly flexible bass (where of course it matters most) strings. I have recently been able to go to an all gut Pistoy of Dan Larson for the 8th course fundamental of my Renaissance lute. About 63 cm, nominal G tenor, AA5, about 1.74 mm diameter string. Very flexible, no problems at all tying it around on the bridge, unlike so many previous attempts with gut or gut substitute strings of this thickness. And it sounds fabulous. With a 9 or 10 course lute of the right size and of this quality in string and instrument I would have no hesitation going down to the low C fundamental. I believe Mimmo Peruffo has also been trying to tame the elephant. Dan On 11/30/2012 10:30 AM, William Samson wrote: Looking at all the discussion we've been having about gut strings - to load, or not to load, to wind or not to wind, to twist or not to twist . . . - one thing that hasn't come up for a while is how different modern gut seems to be from the old stuff. When you look at old pictures showing gut being used to string a lute, or the loose ends of gut hanging from a pegbox, it's clear that it was much softer stuff than the wire-like gut we have today. For a start it came in hanks. Try tying modern gut in a hank and it would look like crap when you unravel it - kinked, cracked, opaque . . . I have no knowledge of the differences between the manufacturing process for modern gut and that used long ago, but it must have been quite different. What difference would stiffness make? One possible difference is inharmonicity - the tendency of harmonics to be sharper in stiffer strings. This is something that piano tuners have to allow for routinely - because of the stiff wire strings. That's just a guess, though, and we won't know for sure until somebody makes old-style soft gut and performs a comparison. I'd have thought this would be a fairly straightforward thing for gut makers to do. Maybe somebody has already done it? Bill -- To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com voice: (218) 728-1202 http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871ref=name http://www.myspace.com/edslute http://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martin -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl ***
[LUTE] Re: Gut strings - The elephant in the room
'I'm not too familiar with Gamut's terminology. I know that Mace describes pistoys as none other than thick Venice-Catlins, which are commonly dyed, with a deep dark red colour. Is that the case?' Possibly- except that Dan uses no dyes. Plain gutty looking gut, except for the twists, looks like the others in color, here's his gut page: http://gamutmusic.squarespace.com/making-gut-stings/ Dan On 11/30/2012 12:47 PM, William Samson wrote: Thanks Dan, That's encouraging. I don't think we should be content with flexibility in just the basses, though. It may or may not be so important for the trebles and means, but the old trebles and means were indeed flexible and I think lute string makers should be trying to emulate this throughout the range. When any strings I order come in the form of 'bundles of knots', I'll feel we're approaching something like what the old ones were doing. I'm not too familiar with Gamut's terminology. I know that Mace describes pistoys as none other than thick Venice-Catlins, which are commonly dyed, with a deep dark red colour. Is that the case? It looks like things are indeed progressing. Bill From: Dan Winheld dwinh...@lmi.net To: William Samson willsam...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, 30 November 2012, 19:10 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Gut strings - The elephant in the room Bill- In fact, some of the string makers are well aware of the stiffness factor; and have been trying to cope with it, and are coming up with increasingly flexible bass (where of course it matters most) strings. I have recently been able to go to an all gut Pistoy of Dan Larson for the 8th course fundamental of my Renaissance lute. About 63 cm, nominal G tenor, AA5, about 1.74 mm diameter string. Very flexible, no problems at all tying it around on the bridge, unlike so many previous attempts with gut or gut substitute strings of this thickness. And it sounds fabulous. With a 9 or 10 course lute of the right size and of this quality in string and instrument I would have no hesitation going down to the low C fundamental. I believe Mimmo Peruffo has also been trying to tame the elephant. Dan On 11/30/2012 10:30 AM, William Samson wrote: Looking at all the discussion we've been having about gut strings - to load, or not to load, to wind or not to wind, to twist or not to twist . . . - one thing that hasn't come up for a while is how different modern gut seems to be from the old stuff. When you look at old pictures showing gut being used to string a lute, or the loose ends of gut hanging from a pegbox, it's clear that it was much softer stuff than the wire-like gut we have today. For a start it came in hanks. Try tying modern gut in a hank and it would look like crap when you unravel it - kinked, cracked, opaque . . . I have no knowledge of the differences between the manufacturing process for modern gut and that used long ago, but it must have been quite different. What difference would stiffness make? One possible difference is inharmonicity - the tendency of harmonics to be sharper in stiffer strings. This is something that piano tuners have to allow for routinely - because of the stiff wire strings. That's just a guess, though, and we won't know for sure until somebody makes old-style soft gut and performs a comparison. I'd have thought this would be a fairly straightforward thing for gut makers to do. Maybe somebody has already done it? Bill -- To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
