[LUTE] Re: I saw my lady weep
Dear David, On Thu, 16 Mar 2006, LGS-Europe wrote: > ..joyful looks excells. > Tears kills the heart... > > What's with the s-es after the verbs? 'Looks' and 'tears' (noun, for sure in > the contaxt) are plural, so I would expect 'excell' and 'kill'. Just an uneducated guess and speculation: somewhere in my mind there are verb forms "excelles", "killes", etc. I guess I've read those words in our beloved facsimilies, prefaces especially. This could be some form of germanc languages' influence, plural of the verb? Perhaps? But I am sure we'll hear the true explanation soon... :-) Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: I saw my lady weep
"Look" can also be used as a noun, as in "I gave him a dirty look." I think that's how he's using it here. In that case, "looks" is just the plural of "look". Guy - Original Message - From: "Arto Wikla" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "LGS-Europe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "Lute net" Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 1:52 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: I saw my lady weep > > Dear David, > > On Thu, 16 Mar 2006, LGS-Europe wrote: > > > ..joyful looks excells. > > Tears kills the heart... > > > > What's with the s-es after the verbs? 'Looks' and 'tears' (noun, for > > sure in > > the contaxt) are plural, so I would expect 'excell' and 'kill'. > > Just an uneducated guess and speculation: somewhere in my mind there are > verb forms "excelles", "killes", etc. I guess I've read those words > in our beloved facsimilies, prefaces especially. This could be some form > of germanc languages' influence, plural of the verb? Perhaps? But I am > sure we'll hear the true explanation soon... :-) > > Arto > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
[LUTE] Re: I saw my lady weep
Oops. Didn't read it very carefully. I think the extra s's are just archaic usages. English spelling wasn't very systematic back then. - Original Message - From: "guy_and_liz Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "LGS-Europe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Arto Wikla" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "Lute net" Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 2:39 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: I saw my lady weep > "Look" can also be used as a noun, as in "I gave him a dirty look." I > think > that's how he's using it here. In that case, "looks" is just the plural of > "look". > > Guy > > > - Original Message - > From: "Arto Wikla" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "LGS-Europe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Cc: "Lute net" > Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 1:52 PM > Subject: [LUTE] Re: I saw my lady weep > > > > > > Dear David, > > > > On Thu, 16 Mar 2006, LGS-Europe wrote: > > > > > ..joyful looks excells. > > > Tears kills the heart... > > > > > > What's with the s-es after the verbs? 'Looks' and 'tears' (noun, for > > > sure in > > > the contaxt) are plural, so I would expect 'excell' and 'kill'. > > > > Just an uneducated guess and speculation: somewhere in my mind there are > > verb forms "excelles", "killes", etc. I guess I've read those words > > in our beloved facsimilies, prefaces especially. This could be some form > > of germanc languages' influence, plural of the verb? Perhaps? But I am > > sure we'll hear the true explanation soon... :-) > > > > Arto > > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > >
[LUTE] Re: I saw my lady weep
.. sounds like gollum. - bills-es --- LGS-Europe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > third verse: > > ..joyful looks excells. > Tears kills the heart... > > What's with the s-es after the verbs? 'Looks' and > 'tears' (noun, for sure in > the contaxt) are plural, so I would expect 'excell' > and 'kill'. > Someone told me these could 'abstract nouns' and > have singelur verb. I can > imagine something like that with the 'teares'. They > are not just the salty > drops > coming from the eyes, but are an abstract image of > sadness, and as such > singular. But with the 'looks' it doesn't quite feel > natural. Just early > spelling, or sloppiness thereof? But an 's' behind > both verbs... > Any deep thoughts out there? I wish Bob Spencer was > still around to ask. > Sigh. > > David > > > > > David van Ooijen > Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Http://www.davidvanooijen.nl > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > early music charango ... http://groups.google.com/group/charango ___ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com
[LUTE] Re: I saw my lady weep
Arto Wikla wrote: > Dear David, > > On Thu, 16 Mar 2006, LGS-Europe wrote: > >> ..joyful looks excells. >> Tears kills the heart... >> >> What's with the s-es after the verbs? 'Looks' and 'tears' (noun, for sure in >> the contaxt) are plural, so I would expect 'excell' and 'kill'. > > Just an uneducated guess and speculation: somewhere in my mind there are > verb forms "excelles", "killes", etc. I guess I've read those words > in our beloved facsimilies, prefaces especially. This could be some form > of germanc languages' influence, plural of the verb? Perhaps? But I am > sure we'll hear the true explanation soon... :-) > Singular verbs with plural nouns were acceptable in Elizabethan English. See for example Macbeth, 1.7.68: Their drenched natures lies as in a death, Cf. Abbott, "A Shakespearean Grammar", 3rd edition, 1870, section 333. By the way, this is the same Abbott who wrote "Flatland" :) Rainer adS To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: I saw my lady weep
It was a poor imagination that could think of but one way to spell a uuord. Sean guy_and_liz Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Oops. Didn't read it very carefully. I think the extra s's are just archaic usages. English spelling wasn't very systematic back then. - Original Message - From: "guy_and_liz Smith" To: "LGS-Europe" ; "Arto Wikla" Cc: "Lute net" Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 2:39 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: I saw my lady weep > "Look" can also be used as a noun, as in "I gave him a dirty look." I > think > that's how he's using it here. In that case, "looks" is just the plural of > "look". > > Guy > > > - Original Message - > From: "Arto Wikla" > To: "LGS-Europe" > Cc: "Lute net" > Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 1:52 PM > Subject: [LUTE] Re: I saw my lady weep > > > > > > Dear David, > > > > On Thu, 16 Mar 2006, LGS-Europe wrote: > > > > > ..joyful looks excells. > > > Tears kills the heart... > > > > > > What's with the s-es after the verbs? 'Looks' and 'tears' (noun, for > > > sure in > > > the contaxt) are plural, so I would expect 'excell' and 'kill'. > > > > Just an uneducated guess and speculation: somewhere in my mind there are > > verb forms "excelles", "killes", etc. I guess I've read those words > > in our beloved facsimilies, prefaces especially. This could be some form > > of germanc languages' influence, plural of the verb? Perhaps? But I am > > sure we'll hear the true explanation soon... :-) > > > > Arto > > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > > --
[LUTE] Re: I saw my lady weep
`When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, `it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less.' Lewis Carroll - Original Message - From: "Sean Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 4:16 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: I saw my lady weep > It was a poor imagination that could think of but one way to spell a > uuord. > > Sean > > guy_and_liz Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Oops. Didn't read it very carefully. I think the extra s's are just > archaic > usages. English spelling wasn't very systematic back then. > > > - Original Message - > From: "guy_and_liz Smith" > To: "LGS-Europe" ; "Arto Wikla" > Cc: "Lute net" > Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 2:39 PM > Subject: [LUTE] Re: I saw my lady weep > > > > "Look" can also be used as a noun, as in "I gave him a dirty look." I > > think > > that's how he's using it here. In that case, "looks" is just the plural > > of > > "look". > > > > Guy > > > > > > - Original Message - > > From: "Arto Wikla" > > To: "LGS-Europe" > > Cc: "Lute net" > > Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 1:52 PM > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: I saw my lady weep > > > > > > > > > > Dear David, > > > > > > On Thu, 16 Mar 2006, LGS-Europe wrote: > > > > > > > ..joyful looks excells. > > > > Tears kills the heart... > > > > > > > > What's with the s-es after the verbs? 'Looks' and 'tears' (noun, for > > > > sure in > > > > the contaxt) are plural, so I would expect 'excell' and 'kill'. > > > > > > Just an uneducated guess and speculation: somewhere in my mind there > > > are > > > verb forms "excelles", "killes", etc. I guess I've read those words > > > in our beloved facsimilies, prefaces especially. This could be some > > > form > > > of germanc languages' influence, plural of the verb? Perhaps? But I am > > > sure we'll hear the true explanation soon... :-) > > > > > > Arto > > > > > > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- >
[LUTE] Re: I saw my lady weep
Mrs. Krabappel: Embiggens? I never heard that word before moving to Springfield. Miss Hoover: I don't know why, it's a perfectly cromulent word. At 08:06 PM 3/16/2006, guy_and_liz Smith wrote: >`When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, `it means >just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less.' > >Lewis Carroll > > >- Original Message - >From: "Sean Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: >Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 4:16 PM >Subject: [LUTE] Re: I saw my lady weep > > > > It was a poor imagination that could think of but one way to spell a > > uuord. > > > > Sean To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: I saw my lady weep
We are talking about 400 year old English here. It is difficult for many native speakers. The lute songs are not just normal English but sometimes very deep. The syntax often blows my mind, - very hard to hang on to sometimes. I wouldn't worry at all about such a detail. If you can understand it, you are ahead of the game. I heard that Shakespeare spelled his name 17 different ways or something like that! I am not an expert, maybe someone else has deep thoughts. cheers, On Mar 17, 2006, at 6:20 AM, LGS-Europe wrote: > third verse: > > ..joyful looks excells. > Tears kills the heart... > > What's with the s-es after the verbs? 'Looks' and 'tears' (noun, > for sure in > the contaxt) are plural, so I would expect 'excell' and 'kill'. > Someone told me these could 'abstract nouns' and have singelur > verb. I can > imagine something like that with the 'teares'. They are not just > the salty > drops > coming from the eyes, but are an abstract image of sadness, and as > such > singular. But with the 'looks' it doesn't quite feel natural. Just > early > spelling, or sloppiness thereof? But an 's' behind both verbs... > Any deep thoughts out there? I wish Bob Spencer was still around to > ask. > Sigh. > > David > > > > > David van Ooijen > Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Http://www.davidvanooijen.nl > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
[LUTE] Re: I saw my lady weep
David wrote: > >On the contrary. Yes, of course we must have a general understanding of the >poem to be able to play the song, but that is only the beginning. Poetry is >written in very precise language; ideas condensed into a few words and made >to fit into to the constraints of the poetic form. And perhaps early >spelling is variable (as is mine, when I read back my own emails...), but >words and grammar are the tools of the poet, so these are also the tools we >must use to understand the poem. Vague notions of what the poem is more or >less about are fine, but I want to know the meaning of every word. It's like >playing polyphony, you have to understand every note to give full emotional >expression. You make a good point here, and as an example I give you the song April is my Mistress' Face. The choir I sing with is currently learning this one for performance, and the score our director gave us has a note at the bottom that claims the word "July" must rhyme with the word "truly". I don't have the exact attribution from the transcriber of the score in front of me but ostensibly he makes a claim to this being correct for the period and context of the song. Regards, Craig ___ $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. Signup at www.doteasy.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: I saw my lady weep
Dear David, Having studied with the late Robert Spencer at roughly the same time as you, I too wish he were still here to ask But I think the plural noun commonly took a singular verb form in Elizabethan English. Sorry I can't (at the moment) come up with other examples or references, but I don't think sloppiness comes into it - spelling was indeed very variable, but the grammar was fairly consistent. I hope to hear more from an expert... Best wishes, Martin P.S. I could ask Jilly - being an actress, she always had interesting views on the poetry and must have encountered this particular problem many times. LGS-Europe wrote: >third verse: > >..joyful looks excells. >Tears kills the heart... > >What's with the s-es after the verbs? 'Looks' and 'tears' (noun, for sure in >the contaxt) are plural, so I would expect 'excell' and 'kill'. >Someone told me these could 'abstract nouns' and have singelur verb. I can >imagine something like that with the 'teares'. They are not just the salty >drops >coming from the eyes, but are an abstract image of sadness, and as such >singular. But with the 'looks' it doesn't quite feel natural. Just early >spelling, or sloppiness thereof? But an 's' behind both verbs... >Any deep thoughts out there? I wish Bob Spencer was still around to ask. >Sigh. > >David > > > > >David van Ooijen >Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Http://www.davidvanooijen.nl > > > > > > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > >
[LUTE] Re: I saw my lady weep
> -Original Message- > From: Martin Shepherd [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Friday, March 17, 2006 2:17 PM > To: Lute Net > Subject: [LUTE] Re: I saw my lady weep > > Dear David, > > Having studied with the late Robert Spencer at roughly the > same time as you, I too wish he were still here to ask > > But I think the plural noun commonly took a singular verb > form in Elizabethan English. That's what I said. > Sorry I can't (at the moment) > come up with other examples or references, but I don't think > sloppiness comes into it - spelling was indeed very variable, > but the grammar was fairly consistent. Once again, see Abbott. Best wishes, Rainer aus dem Spring IS department, development Tel.: +49 211-5296-355 Fax.: +49 211-5296-405 SMTP: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** CONFIDENTIALITY DISCLAIMER The information in this email and in any attachments is confidential and may be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please destroy this message, delete any copies held on your systems and notify the sender immediately. You should not retain, copy or use this email for any purpose outside of any NDA currently existing between Toshiba Electronics Europe GmbH and yourselves. ** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: I saw my lady weep
Dear All,
I think it's necessary to look at the song as a whole -
the conceit is that music is personified here as "my lady"
and Dowland is exploring the paradox of sadness being
made beautiful in musical art. The song is almost sonnet
like in its structure and negotiates a very difficult about turn
in the last stanza, exactly where these tricky phrases occur.
The word "Inough" is very suggestive of its use in the
famous opening speech of "Twelfth Night" where Orsino
call for the music to stop ("Enough, no more; 'Tis not so
sweet now as it was before." ) - exactly what's happening here:
"O fayrer then ought ells,
The world can shew, leave off in time to grieve,
Inough, inough, your ioyfull lookes excells,
Teares kills the heart believe,
O strive not to bee excellent in woe,
Which onely breeds your beauties overthrow."
Dowland, (if he is the poet), is trying to turn his idea
around here while maintaining his metaphor about music,
and he seems to be trying to say that true grief is different
to the stylised sadness that brings pleasure in music.
In this sense I think "your ioyfull lookes excells" means
"your looks are best when expressing joy rather than sadness."
Similarly "Teares kills the heart believe" means that true
tears signify heartbreak rather than joy. In these senses
I don't find what we might think of as being anomalies in the use
of English quite so difficult. But it would be silly to be
too dogmatic - they could be printers errors. Either way, it's
a fascinating bit of writing to reflect on.
Best wishes,
Denys
- Original Message -
From: "Ed Durbrow" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "LGS-Europe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "lute list"
Sent: Friday, March 17, 2006 10:29 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: I saw my lady weep
> We are talking about 400 year old English here. It is difficult for
> many native speakers. The lute songs are not just normal English but
> sometimes very deep. The syntax often blows my mind, - very hard to
> hang on to sometimes. I wouldn't worry at all about such a detail. If
> you can understand it, you are ahead of the game. I heard that
> Shakespeare spelled his name 17 different ways or something like that!
>
> I am not an expert, maybe someone else has deep thoughts.
>
> cheers,
>
> On Mar 17, 2006, at 6:20 AM, LGS-Europe wrote:
>
> > third verse:
> >
> > ..joyful looks excells.
> > Tears kills the heart...
> >
> > What's with the s-es after the verbs? 'Looks' and 'tears' (noun,
> > for sure in
> > the contaxt) are plural, so I would expect 'excell' and 'kill'.
> > Someone told me these could 'abstract nouns' and have singelur
> > verb. I can
> > imagine something like that with the 'teares'. They are not just
> > the salty
> > drops
> > coming from the eyes, but are an abstract image of sadness, and as
> > such
> > singular. But with the 'looks' it doesn't quite feel natural. Just
> > early
> > spelling, or sloppiness thereof? But an 's' behind both verbs...
> > Any deep thoughts out there? I wish Bob Spencer was still around to
> > ask.
> > Sigh.
> >
> > David
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > David van Ooijen
> > Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Http://www.davidvanooijen.nl
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > To get on or off this list see list information at
> > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
> Ed Durbrow
> Saitama, Japan
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
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[LUTE] Re: I saw my lady weep
A thought from my friend Paul of Diabolus in Musica who knows a lot About early English, and even speaks it when required Nick Dear Nick, I think these are simple plurals. They're just idiomatic - probably drawn from a dialect usage. I'm sure there are a number of modern dialects (eg. Cockney, Gloucester) where "tears kills the heart" would be the normal form - probably with a dropped h in "heart", which was also common among the higher orders of society in the Elizabethan period. There were no standardised and codified rules of grammar in that period - at least, none that met with anything like universal acceptance. Ralegh spoke broad Devon at court, and wasn't mocked for it. If you wanted to establish your linguistic rank, you did it in French or Latin. Best wishes, Paul -Original Message- From: Ed Durbrow [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 17 March 2006 10:30 To: LGS-Europe; lute list Subject: [LUTE] Re: I saw my lady weep We are talking about 400 year old English here. It is difficult for many native speakers. The lute songs are not just normal English but sometimes very deep. The syntax often blows my mind, - very hard to hang on to sometimes. I wouldn't worry at all about such a detail. If you can understand it, you are ahead of the game. I heard that Shakespeare spelled his name 17 different ways or something like that! I am not an expert, maybe someone else has deep thoughts. cheers, On Mar 17, 2006, at 6:20 AM, LGS-Europe wrote: > third verse: > > ..joyful looks excells. > Tears kills the heart... > > What's with the s-es after the verbs? 'Looks' and 'tears' (noun, > for sure in > the contaxt) are plural, so I would expect 'excell' and 'kill'. > Someone told me these could 'abstract nouns' and have singelur > verb. I can > imagine something like that with the 'teares'. They are not just > the salty > drops > coming from the eyes, but are an abstract image of sadness, and as > such > singular. But with the 'looks' it doesn't quite feel natural. Just > early > spelling, or sloppiness thereof? But an 's' behind both verbs... > Any deep thoughts out there? I wish Bob Spencer was still around to > ask. > Sigh. > > David > > > > > David van Ooijen > Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Http://www.davidvanooijen.nl > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
