[LUTE] Re: John Bull's Fantasy XII is Raga Yaman

[G. C.]

   One of my Shakti favourites must be "Peace of mind" from the "Natural
   Elements" album.
   [1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3t15wctpN0
   G.
   On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 5:05 AM, George <[2]georgefos...@att.net> wrote:
   My favorite east meets west: John McLaughlin and Shakti. Check out
   Happiness is Being Together. On YouTube.

   --

References

   1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3t15wctpN0
   2. mailto:georgefos...@att.net


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: John Bull's Fantasy XII is Raga Yaman

[David van Ooijen]

   I played with a Bollywood band last November, does that count?
   See programmes (and Frisch' interesting book on these) by Le Baroque
   Nomade or Jordi Savall's Xavier album for musically inspired
   intercultural fusion in early music.
   Or the Italian baroque sonata's composed by Petrini at the Chinese
   court in the 18th century, but there's no fusion involved. In Japanese
   traditional music are a few Western influences, among these a koto
   tuning refered to as âDutch tuning', a remnant of the time the Dutch
   had a trading post in Hirado, and later Deshima.
   David
   On Fri, 9 Feb 2018 at 05:09, George <[1]georgefos...@att.net> wrote:

 My favorite east meets west: John McLaughlin and Shakti. Check out
 Happiness is Being Together. On YouTube.
 > On Feb 8, 2018, at 6:31 PM, G. C. <[2]kalei...@gmail.com> wrote:
 >
 >Kiitos Arto, minà ¤ tykkà ¤t hyvà ¤in kitarristin. Cool album
 >
 >On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 1:14 AM, Arto Wikla
 <[1][3]wi...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
 >wrote:
 >
 >  Dear lutenists
 >  Here is my favorite eastern-western music from my youth:
 >  THE PAUL BUTTERFIELD BLUES BAND - EAST WEST (1966)
 >[2][4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwMqBvBLJio
 >  (btw: that is good music even today! :-) )
 >  Perhaps Tristan will find some similiar ragas?
 >  best,
 >  Arto
 >
 >On 09/02/18 01:57, Tristan von Neumann wrote:
 >
 >  Yep, and Apes don't look like Humans. There is no other
 relation
 >  whatsoever, pure coincidence that they look alike
 >  If you had listened as much to the tracks while finding the
 right
 >  spot to make it sound ok without too much manipulation, you
 would
 >  notice more that just modes.
 >  But as I said - if you don't want to hear the gestures, and
 how
 >  Sweelinck directly refers to the Raga (and Dowland too), then
 you
 >  don't listen as closely.
 >  If we sat together in front of the stereo and I could point
 it out,
 >  you would probably be surprised not to have heard it.
 >  Am 09.02.2018 um 00:39 schrieb Susan Sandman:
 >
 >  I do hear similarities between the two. But I hear
 similarities
 >  among lots of musics â from Steve Reich to "space music" to
 >  troubadour songs in similar modes, and do not think it means
 direct
 >  contact or transmission of the sort I think you are
 asserting.
 >  I find the unique musical gestures of each more interest, and
 the
 >  unique tone colors of the instruments used more important
 than
 >  unifying features of mode or raga however illustrated.
 >  Susan
 >  On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 10:38 AM Tristan von Neumann
 >  <[3][5]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
 >
 >  wrote:
 >Thank you Susan!
 >I am aware of Schenker - I studied musicology back in
 the day.
 >This would be indeed the best approach, but I guess it
 is
 >  possible to
 >find the exact match when analyzing just what is there.
 >Indian understanding - as it appears to me - basically
 *is*
 >  Schenkerian,
 >so I guess this step could be skipped.
 >What is your opinion about the Echo Fantasy?
 >
 [5][7]https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/sweelinck-echo-
 >  fantasia-ex-a-raga-asawari
 >>Am 08.02.2018 um 16:31 schrieb Susan Sandman:
 >> [6][8]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schenkerian_analysis
 >>
 >> Perhaps the theoretical approach of Schenker would be
 >  helpful to
 >> communicate the similarities you are finding between the
 >  Bull
 >Fantasia,
 >> Raga Yaman and maybe Castello.Schenker's system is
 >  based on the
 >> dynamic pull of scale tones. While to me the
 >  particularities of the
 >> musical elaborations unique to each composer/era/culture
 >  is of more
 >> interest, his approach might clarify the unity of what you
 >  are
 >hearing.
 >> Please consult the above link.
 >> Susan
 >> [7][9]www.ElizabethanConversation.com
 ><[8][10]http://www.ElizabethanConversation.com>
 ><[9][11]http://www.ElizabethanConversation.com>
 >>
 >> On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 7:02 PM Tristan von Neumann
 >> <[10][12]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
 >  
 >  >>
 >wrote:
 >>
 >>  I would not dare to call you a fool if you actually
 >  took your
   

[LUTE] Re: John Bull's Fantasy XII is Raga Yaman

[George]

My favorite east meets west: John McLaughlin and Shakti. Check out Happiness is 
Being Together. On YouTube.

> On Feb 8, 2018, at 6:31 PM, G. C.  wrote:
> 
>   Kiitos Arto, minä tykkät hyväin kitarristin. Cool album
> 
>   On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 1:14 AM, Arto Wikla <[1]wi...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>   wrote:
> 
> Dear lutenists
> Here is my favorite eastern-western music from my youth:
> THE PAUL BUTTERFIELD BLUES BAND - EAST WEST (1966)
>   [2]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwMqBvBLJio
> (btw: that is good music even today! :-) )
> Perhaps Tristan will find some similiar ragas?
> best,
> Arto
> 
>   On 09/02/18 01:57, Tristan von Neumann wrote:
> 
> Yep, and Apes don't look like Humans. There is no other relation
> whatsoever, pure coincidence that they look alike
> If you had listened as much to the tracks while finding the right
> spot to make it sound ok without too much manipulation, you would
> notice more that just modes.
> But as I said - if you don't want to hear the gestures, and how
> Sweelinck directly refers to the Raga (and Dowland too), then you
> don't listen as closely.
> If we sat together in front of the stereo and I could point it out,
> you would probably be surprised not to have heard it.
> Am 09.02.2018 um 00:39 schrieb Susan Sandman:
> 
> I do hear similarities between the two. But I hear similarities
> among lots of musics â from Steve Reich to "space music" to
> troubadour songs in similar modes, and do not think it means direct
> contact or transmission of the sort I think you are asserting.
> I find the unique musical gestures of each more interest, and the
> unique tone colors of the instruments used more important  than
> unifying features of mode or raga however illustrated.
> Susan
> On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 10:38 AM Tristan von Neumann
> <[3]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de >
> wrote:
>   Thank you Susan!
>   I am aware of Schenker - I studied musicology back in the day.
>   This would be indeed the best approach, but I guess it is
> possible to
>   find the exact match when analyzing just what is there.
>   Indian understanding - as it appears to me - basically *is*
> Schenkerian,
>   so I guess this step could be skipped.
>   What is your opinion about the Echo Fantasy?
> [5]https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/sweelinck-echo-
> fantasia-ex-a-raga-asawari
>>   Am 08.02.2018 um 16:31 schrieb Susan Sandman:
>> [6]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schenkerian_analysis
>> 
>> Perhaps the theoretical approach of Schenker would be
> helpful to
>> communicate the similarities you are finding between the
> Bull
>   Fantasia,
>> Raga Yaman and maybe Castello.   Schenker's system is
> based on the
>> dynamic pull of scale tones. While to me the
> particularities of the
>> musical elaborations unique to each composer/era/culture
> is of more
>> interest, his approach might clarify the unity of what you
> are
>   hearing.
>> Please consult the above link.
>> Susan
>> [7]www.ElizabethanConversation.com
>   <[8]http://www.ElizabethanConversation.com>
>   <[9]http://www.ElizabethanConversation.com>
>> 
>> On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 7:02 PM Tristan von Neumann
>> <[10]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
> 
>    >>
>   wrote:
>> 
>> I would not dare to call you a fool if you actually
> took your
>   time to
>> listen :)
>> In case of my experiments I grant you, there is room
> for doubt.
>> But with Fantasy X and XII: Did you *really* listen?
>> (I hope your disbelief did not impair your hearing.
> This
>   human trait has
>> been proven scientifically.)
>> And if it's not connected, I would be very happy to
> know:
>> how do you explain the total weirdness of especially
> those two
>> fantasies? There is nothing remotely resembling this,
> and I
>   have played
>> and listened a lot. I would very much love to get
> other
>   keyboard pieces
>> in that style then, regardless :)
>> 
>> However (also to you, G. C.) - it is not the
> compatible mode,
>   it is also
>> basic motives of the Raga that can be found exactly
> at the
>   right place,
>> and the matching .
>> I have yet to organize a real meeting between for
> example a
>   singer and a
>> keyboardist.
>> If anything, this could be a nice intercultural
> exchange.
>> 
>> My old musicology professor by the way does agree
> with the
>   finding.
>> Though due to tempo inconsistecies (if oyu change
> tempo
>   digitally, it
>> 

[LUTE] Re: John Bull's Fantasy XII is Raga Yaman

[G. C.]

   Kiitos Arto, minä tykkät hyväin kitarristin. Cool album

   On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 1:14 AM, Arto Wikla <[1]wi...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   wrote:

 Dear lutenists
 Here is my favorite eastern-western music from my youth:
 THE PAUL BUTTERFIELD BLUES BAND - EAST WEST (1966)
   [2]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwMqBvBLJio
 (btw: that is good music even today! :-) )
 Perhaps Tristan will find some similiar ragas?
 best,
 Arto

   On 09/02/18 01:57, Tristan von Neumann wrote:

 Yep, and Apes don't look like Humans. There is no other relation
 whatsoever, pure coincidence that they look alike
 If you had listened as much to the tracks while finding the right
 spot to make it sound ok without too much manipulation, you would
 notice more that just modes.
 But as I said - if you don't want to hear the gestures, and how
 Sweelinck directly refers to the Raga (and Dowland too), then you
 don't listen as closely.
 If we sat together in front of the stereo and I could point it out,
 you would probably be surprised not to have heard it.
 Am 09.02.2018 um 00:39 schrieb Susan Sandman:

 I do hear similarities between the two. But I hear similarities
 among lots of musics â from Steve Reich to "space music" to
 troubadour songs in similar modes, and do not think it means direct
 contact or transmission of the sort I think you are asserting.
 I find the unique musical gestures of each more interest, and the
 unique tone colors of the instruments used more important  than
 unifying features of mode or raga however illustrated.
 Susan
 On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 10:38 AM Tristan von Neumann
 <[3]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de >
 wrote:
   Thank you Susan!
   I am aware of Schenker - I studied musicology back in the day.
   This would be indeed the best approach, but I guess it is
 possible to
   find the exact match when analyzing just what is there.
   Indian understanding - as it appears to me - basically *is*
 Schenkerian,
   so I guess this step could be skipped.
   What is your opinion about the Echo Fantasy?
 [5]https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/sweelinck-echo-
 fantasia-ex-a-raga-asawari
   Am 08.02.2018 um 16:31 schrieb Susan Sandman:
 > [6]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schenkerian_analysis
 >
 > Perhaps the theoretical approach of Schenker would be
 helpful to
 > communicate the similarities you are finding between the
 Bull
   Fantasia,
 > Raga Yaman and maybe Castello.   Schenker's system is
 based on the
 > dynamic pull of scale tones. While to me the
 particularities of the
 > musical elaborations unique to each composer/era/culture
 is of more
 > interest, his approach might clarify the unity of what you
 are
   hearing.
 > Please consult the above link.
 > Susan
 > [7]www.ElizabethanConversation.com
   <[8]http://www.ElizabethanConversation.com>
   <[9]http://www.ElizabethanConversation.com>
 >
 > On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 7:02 PM Tristan von Neumann
 > <[10]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
 
   >>
   wrote:
 >
 >  I would not dare to call you a fool if you actually
 took your
   time to
 >  listen :)
 >  In case of my experiments I grant you, there is room
 for doubt.
 >  But with Fantasy X and XII: Did you *really* listen?
 >  (I hope your disbelief did not impair your hearing.
 This
   human trait has
 >  been proven scientifically.)
 >  And if it's not connected, I would be very happy to
 know:
 >  how do you explain the total weirdness of especially
 those two
 >  fantasies? There is nothing remotely resembling this,
 and I
   have played
 >  and listened a lot. I would very much love to get
 other
   keyboard pieces
 >  in that style then, regardless :)
 >
 >  However (also to you, G. C.) - it is not the
 compatible mode,
   it is also
 >  basic motives of the Raga that can be found exactly
 at the
   right place,
 >  and the matching .
 >  I have yet to organize a real meeting between for
 example a
   singer and a
 >  keyboardist.
 >  If anything, this could be a nice intercultural
 exchange.
 >
 >

[LUTE] Re: John Bull's Fantasy XII is Raga Yaman

[Arto Wikla]

Dear lutenists

Here is my favorite eastern-western music from my youth:

THE PAUL BUTTERFIELD BLUES BAND - EAST WEST (1966)
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwMqBvBLJio
(btw: that is good music even today! :-) )

Perhaps Tristan will find some similiar ragas?

best,
Arto

On 09/02/18 01:57, Tristan von Neumann wrote:
Yep, and Apes don't look like Humans. There is no other relation 
whatsoever, pure coincidence that they look alike


If you had listened as much to the tracks while finding the right spot 
to make it sound ok without too much manipulation, you would notice more 
that just modes.
But as I said - if you don't want to hear the gestures, and how 
Sweelinck directly refers to the Raga (and Dowland too), then you don't 
listen as closely.
If we sat together in front of the stereo and I could point it out, you 
would probably be surprised not to have heard it.




Am 09.02.2018 um 00:39 schrieb Susan Sandman:
I do hear similarities between the two. But I hear similarities among 
lots of musics — from Steve Reich to “space music” to troubadour songs 
in similar modes, and do not think it means direct contact or 
transmission of the sort I think you are asserting.


I find the unique musical gestures of each more interest, and the 
unique tone colors of the instruments used more important  than 
unifying features of mode or raga however illustrated.

Susan



On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 10:38 AM Tristan von Neumann 
mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de>> wrote:


    Thank you Susan!
    I am aware of Schenker - I studied musicology back in the day.
    This would be indeed the best approach, but I guess it is possible to
    find the exact match when analyzing just what is there.
    Indian understanding - as it appears to me - basically *is* 
Schenkerian,

    so I guess this step could be skipped.

    What is your opinion about the Echo Fantasy?


https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/sweelinck-echo-fantasia-ex-a-raga-asawari 




    Am 08.02.2018 um 16:31 schrieb Susan Sandman:
 > https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schenkerian_analysis
 >
 > Perhaps the theoretical approach of Schenker would be helpful to
 > communicate the similarities you are finding between the Bull
    Fantasia,
 > Raga Yaman and maybe Castello.  Schenker’s system is based on the
 > dynamic pull of scale tones. While to me the particularities of 
the
 > musical elaborations unique to each composer/era/culture  is of 
more

 > interest, his approach might clarify the unity of what you are
    hearing.
 > Please consult the above link.
 > Susan
 > www.ElizabethanConversation.com
    
    
 >
 > On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 7:02 PM Tristan von Neumann
 > mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de>
    >>
    wrote:
 >
 >     I would not dare to call you a fool if you actually took your
    time to
 >     listen :)
 >     In case of my experiments I grant you, there is room for 
doubt.

 >     But with Fantasy X and XII: Did you *really* listen?
 >     (I hope your disbelief did not impair your hearing. This
    human trait has
 >     been proven scientifically.)
 >     And if it's not connected, I would be very happy to know:
 >     how do you explain the total weirdness of especially those two
 >     fantasies? There is nothing remotely resembling this, and I
    have played
 >     and listened a lot. I would very much love to get other
    keyboard pieces
 >     in that style then, regardless :)
 >
 >     However (also to you, G. C.) - it is not the compatible mode,
    it is also
 >     basic motives of the Raga that can be found exactly at the
    right place,
 >     and the matching .
 >     I have yet to organize a real meeting between for example a
    singer and a
 >     keyboardist.
 >     If anything, this could be a nice intercultural exchange.
 >
 >     My old musicology professor by the way does agree with the
    finding.
 >     Though due to tempo inconsistecies (if oyu change tempo
    digitally, it
 >     sound terrible) I did not post it:
 >     If a Hindustani flute player matches Fantasy XII, it sounds
    like a
 >     Castello Sonata. I will try and prepare a mix with that, but
    I have not
 >     yet found the right music source.
 >     Anyone interested may get an mp3 in private email.
 >
 >
 >     Am 07.02.2018 um 23:32 schrieb Arto Wikla:
 >      > Well, I listened carefully all those example combinations
    of Bull's
 >      > harpsichord pieces and the suggested similiar(?) raga
 >     performances, and
 >      > sincerely I could not find much in common between them,
    just two
 >      > different sound clips connected. Tristan von Neumann is of
    course
 >     free

[LUTE] Re: John Bull's Fantasy XII is Raga Yaman

[Tristan von Neumann]

Yep, and Apes don't look like Humans. There is no other relation 
whatsoever, pure coincidence that they look alike


If you had listened as much to the tracks while finding the right spot 
to make it sound ok without too much manipulation, you would notice more 
that just modes.
But as I said - if you don't want to hear the gestures, and how 
Sweelinck directly refers to the Raga (and Dowland too), then you don't 
listen as closely.
If we sat together in front of the stereo and I could point it out, you 
would probably be surprised not to have heard it.




Am 09.02.2018 um 00:39 schrieb Susan Sandman:
I do hear similarities between the two. But I hear similarities among 
lots of musics — from Steve Reich to “space music” to troubadour songs 
in similar modes, and do not think it means direct contact or 
transmission of the sort I think you are asserting.


I find the unique musical gestures of each more interest, and the unique 
tone colors of the instruments used more important  than unifying 
features of mode or raga however illustrated.

Susan



On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 10:38 AM Tristan von Neumann 
mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de>> wrote:


Thank you Susan!
I am aware of Schenker - I studied musicology back in the day.
This would be indeed the best approach, but I guess it is possible to
find the exact match when analyzing just what is there.
Indian understanding - as it appears to me - basically *is* Schenkerian,
so I guess this step could be skipped.

What is your opinion about the Echo Fantasy?


https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/sweelinck-echo-fantasia-ex-a-raga-asawari


Am 08.02.2018 um 16:31 schrieb Susan Sandman:
 > https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schenkerian_analysis
 >
 > Perhaps the theoretical approach of Schenker would be helpful to
 > communicate the similarities you are finding between the Bull
Fantasia,
 > Raga Yaman and maybe Castello.  Schenker’s system is based on the
 > dynamic pull of scale tones. While to me the particularities of the
 > musical elaborations unique to each composer/era/culture  is of more
 > interest, his approach might clarify the unity of what you are
hearing.
 > Please consult the above link.
 > Susan
 > www.ElizabethanConversation.com


 >
 > On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 7:02 PM Tristan von Neumann
 > mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de>
>>
wrote:
 >
 >     I would not dare to call you a fool if you actually took your
time to
 >     listen :)
 >     In case of my experiments I grant you, there is room for doubt.
 >     But with Fantasy X and XII: Did you *really* listen?
 >     (I hope your disbelief did not impair your hearing. This
human trait has
 >     been proven scientifically.)
 >     And if it's not connected, I would be very happy to know:
 >     how do you explain the total weirdness of especially those two
 >     fantasies? There is nothing remotely resembling this, and I
have played
 >     and listened a lot. I would very much love to get other
keyboard pieces
 >     in that style then, regardless :)
 >
 >     However (also to you, G. C.) - it is not the compatible mode,
it is also
 >     basic motives of the Raga that can be found exactly at the
right place,
 >     and the matching .
 >     I have yet to organize a real meeting between for example a
singer and a
 >     keyboardist.
 >     If anything, this could be a nice intercultural exchange.
 >
 >     My old musicology professor by the way does agree with the
finding.
 >     Though due to tempo inconsistecies (if oyu change tempo
digitally, it
 >     sound terrible) I did not post it:
 >     If a Hindustani flute player matches Fantasy XII, it sounds
like a
 >     Castello Sonata. I will try and prepare a mix with that, but
I have not
 >     yet found the right music source.
 >     Anyone interested may get an mp3 in private email.
 >
 >
 >     Am 07.02.2018 um 23:32 schrieb Arto Wikla:
 >      > Well, I listened carefully all those example combinations
of Bull's
 >      > harpsichord pieces and the suggested similiar(?) raga
 >     performances, and
 >      > sincerely I could not find much in common between them,
just two
 >      > different sound clips connected. Tristan von Neumann is of
course
 >     free
 >      > to name me also "fool" even after I really listened his
medleys, but
 >      > while I definitely strongly disagree his idea... ;-)
 >      >
 >      > all the best,
 >      >
 >      > Arto
 >      >
 >      > On 07/02/18 07:53, Tristan von Neumann wrote:
 >      >>  > Those who w

[LUTE] Re: John Bull's Fantasy XII is Raga Yaman

[Susan Sandman]

   I do hear similarities between the two. But I hear similarities among
   lots of musics â from Steve Reich to "space music" to troubadour songs
   in similar modes, and do not think it means direct contact or
   transmission of the sort I think you are asserting.
   I find the unique musical gestures of each more interest, and the
   unique tone colors of the instruments used more important  than
   unifying features of mode or raga however illustrated.

   Susan

   On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 10:38 AM Tristan von Neumann
   <[1]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote:

 Thank you Susan!
 I am aware of Schenker - I studied musicology back in the day.
 This would be indeed the best approach, but I guess it is possible
 to
 find the exact match when analyzing just what is there.
 Indian understanding - as it appears to me - basically *is*
 Schenkerian,
 so I guess this step could be skipped.
 What is your opinion about the Echo Fantasy?
 [2]https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/sweelinck-echo-fantasi
 a-ex-a-raga-asawari
 Am 08.02.2018 um 16:31 schrieb Susan Sandman:
 > [3]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schenkerian_analysis
 >
 > Perhaps the theoretical approach of Schenker would be helpful to
 > communicate the similarities you are finding between the Bull
 Fantasia,
 > Raga Yaman and maybe Castello.   Schenker's system is based on the
 > dynamic pull of scale tones. While to me the particularities of
 the
 > musical elaborations unique to each composer/era/culture  is of
 more
 > interest, his approach might clarify the unity of what you are
 hearing.
 > Please consult the above link.
 > Susan
 > [4]www.ElizabethanConversation.com
 <[5]http://www.ElizabethanConversation.com>
 >
 > On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 7:02 PM Tristan von Neumann
 > <[6]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de >
 wrote:
 >
 >  I would not dare to call you a fool if you actually took your
 time to
 >  listen :)
 >  In case of my experiments I grant you, there is room for
 doubt.
 >  But with Fantasy X and XII: Did you *really* listen?
 >  (I hope your disbelief did not impair your hearing. This
 human trait has
 >  been proven scientifically.)
 >  And if it's not connected, I would be very happy to know:
 >  how do you explain the total weirdness of especially those
 two
 >  fantasies? There is nothing remotely resembling this, and I
 have played
 >  and listened a lot. I would very much love to get other
 keyboard pieces
 >  in that style then, regardless :)
 >
 >  However (also to you, G. C.) - it is not the compatible mode,
 it is also
 >  basic motives of the Raga that can be found exactly at the
 right place,
 >  and the matching .
 >  I have yet to organize a real meeting between for example a
 singer and a
 >  keyboardist.
 >  If anything, this could be a nice intercultural exchange.
 >
 >  My old musicology professor by the way does agree with the
 finding.
 >  Though due to tempo inconsistecies (if oyu change tempo
 digitally, it
 >  sound terrible) I did not post it:
 >  If a Hindustani flute player matches Fantasy XII, it sounds
 like a
 >  Castello Sonata. I will try and prepare a mix with that, but
 I have not
 >  yet found the right music source.
 >  Anyone interested may get an mp3 in private email.
 >
 >
 >  Am 07.02.2018 um 23:32 schrieb Arto Wikla:
 >   > Well, I listened carefully all those example combinations
 of Bull's
 >   > harpsichord pieces and the suggested similiar(?) raga
 >  performances, and
 >   > sincerely I could not find much in common between them,
 just two
 >   > different sound clips connected. Tristan von Neumann is of
 course
 >  free
 >   > to name me also "fool" even after I really listened his
 medleys, but
 >   > while I definitely strongly disagree his idea... ;-)
 >   >
 >   > all the best,
 >   >
 >   > Arto
 >   >
 >   > On 07/02/18 07:53, Tristan von Neumann wrote:
 >   >>  > Those who would even want to listen are fools.
 >   >>
 >   >> Of course, those who wouldn't.
 >   >>
 >   >> Am 07.02.2018 um 06:48 schrieb Tristan von Neumann:
 >   >>> I can't believe almost no one is excited about this
 discovery.
 >   >>>
 >   >>> All those who *still* doubt me, listen to this epic Raga
 Yaman
 >   >>> accompanied by John Bull's Fantasy XII.
 >   >>> I did nothing but adjust the pitch and placement of the
 tracks.
 >   >>>
 >   >>>
 [8]https://soundclo

[LUTE] Re: John Bull's Fantasy XII is Raga Yaman

[howard posner]

> On Feb 8, 2018, at 11:36 AM, Tristan von Neumann  
> wrote:
> 
> If I presented a book with Ragas in one staff mensural notation from 
> Sweelinck's attic, your answer would probably be "these are just solmization 
> exercises"…

I’d have questions about its authenticity (who would be writing down ragas in 
mensural notation in 1620, and why?)  But by all means, produce the book.  It 
would answer the question I posed earlier.

> If you don't want to believe, you wouldn't even believe me if Sweelinck told 
> you himself…

I’d have even more questions, since my understanding is that Sweelinck is dead. 
 




To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: John Bull's Fantasy XII is Raga Yaman

[Tristan von Neumann]

so what do you expect?

If I presented a book with Ragas in one staff mensural notation from 
Sweelinck's attic, your answer would probably be "these are just 
solmization exercises"...


If you don't want to believe, you wouldn't even believe me if Sweelinck 
told you himself...
I have seen this principle on wikipedia - if the guy whose article is 
discussed makes himself clear when his birthday is, also referring to 
his homepage, there are still people who say "but in this book, it's one 
year earlier". No kidding.



Am 08.02.2018 um 20:24 schrieb Jacob Johnson:


I technically posted an example of quodlibet. But what you've done is
in fact precisely the same as a mashup, wherein two disparate source
pieces are overlaid, often with one source requiring a change of pitch
and/or tempo. Mashups don't mean that you've edited the parts, that
would be more like sampling or looping in digital audio production.
Mashups require that you HAVEN'T EDITED THE PARTS. The mashup as a
genre is only popular in the first place because the "evidence" you're
claiming can be "discovered" with pretty much any two pieces of music,
given matching tempi and key.
It's just that mashups aren't real evidence. The claim you are making
and the manner in which you are making it has precisely the same
academic weight as if you were saying "if you start Pink Floyd's "Dark
Side of the Moon' after the 2nd roar of the MGM lion at the beginning
of The Wizard of Oz, you can clearly see that L. Frank Baum was a HUGE
PINK FLOYD FAN." All you're showing us right now is the result of a
phenomenon called apophenia. Indulging apophenia can be wildly
entertaining and the results may even become a new piece of art in
their own right, but research it is not.
I like that you're thinking about similarities, but I'd just expect
more rigor from someone who says they're a musicologist. I'm sorry, but
even if your claims were correct your mashups on their own still
wouldn't hold any water. Show us actual research that supports your
claims.
But most of all, please stop addressing the list as though we are all
"fools".
Regards,
Jacob Johnson
[uc?export=download&id=0B6_gM3BRE6ZrYVVZZU5QNmJqdDQ&revid=0B6_g
M3BRE6ZraW9nQ2U4SGNwV0tYVWxobnNBVjBsZi9FNHhzPQ]
Guitar/Lute
[1]www.johnsonguitarstudio.com
469.237.0625.
On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 12:51 PM, Tristan von Neumann
<[2]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote:

  it's not a mash-up, I *DID NOT EDIT THE TRACKS*
  I just placed them above each other and pitched the lute to the
  pitch of the Raga!
  How do you expect to do editing in 30 mins??
  here are the original source tracks:
  [3]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnbbk7_tFDo
  (this reveals the identity of the lutist)
  [4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCL2fpacwYA

Am 08.02.2018 um 19:39 schrieb Jacob Johnson:

  If a mashup counts as "evidence", then I humbly submit for the
  list's
  consideration the following:
  [1][5]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OYkWSW7u4k&;
  #bigiftrue #staywoke #wakeupsheeple
  What blows my mind is how incredibly confrontational your tone
  is in
  nearly everything you post here, Tristan. It's cringey and
  strikes me
  as condescending.
  Jacob Johnson
  [uc?export=download&id=0B6_gM3BRE6ZrYVVZZU5QNmJqdDQ&
  revid=0B6_g
  M3BRE6ZraW9nQ2U4SGNwV0tYVWxobnNBVjBsZi9FNHhzPQ]
  Guitar/Lute
  [2][6]www.johnsonguitarstudio.com
  [3]469.237.0625.
  --
  References
  1. [7]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OYkWSW7u4k&;
  2. [8]http://www.johnsonguitarstudio.com/
  3. tel:[9](469) 237-0625
  To get on or off this list see list information at
  [10]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

--

References

1. http://www.johnsonguitarstudio.com/
2. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
3. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnbbk7_tFDo
4. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCL2fpacwYA
5. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OYkWSW7u4k&;
6. http://www.johnsonguitarstudio.com/
7. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OYkWSW7u4k&;
8. http://www.johnsonguitarstudio.com/
9. tel:(469) 237-0625
   10. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: John Bull's Fantasy XII is Raga Yaman

[John Mardinly]

   Excellent find, Jacob. Clearly someone has too much free time on their
   hands.

   A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
   The Sleep of Reason Produces Monsters
   Francisco Goya

   On Feb 8, 2018, at 11:39 AM, Jacob Johnson <[1]tmrguitar...@gmail.com>
   wrote:

 If a mashup counts as "evidence", then I humbly submit for the list's
 consideration the following:
 [1][2]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.youtub
   e.com_watch-3Fv-3D7OYkWSW7u4k-26&d=DwIBAg&c=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1Gy
   cN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ&r=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E&m=5NElQy
   Y-FjQ6PqCkDLz1SNCKT_X4cLNBUBcluht4OuE&s=9NnOJNeNLrTSPmuUj0LfQre-1wKfTn6
   KqTPWIaM-L-k&e=
 #bigiftrue #staywoke #wakeupsheeple
 What blows my mind is how incredibly confrontational your tone is in
 nearly everything you post here, Tristan. It's cringey and strikes me
 as condescending.
 Jacob Johnson
 [uc?export=download&id=0B6_gM3BRE6ZrYVVZZU5QNmJqdDQ&revid=0B6
   _g
 M3BRE6ZraW9nQ2U4SGNwV0tYVWxobnNBVjBsZi9FNHhzPQ]
 Guitar/Lute
 [2][3]www.johnsonguitarstudio.com
 [3]469.237.0625.
 --
   References
 1.
   [4]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.youtube.com
   _watch-3Fv-3D7OYkWSW7u4k-26&d=DwIBAg&c=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2
   jInuKy6zbqQ&r=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E&m=5NElQyY-FjQ
   6PqCkDLz1SNCKT_X4cLNBUBcluht4OuE&s=9NnOJNeNLrTSPmuUj0LfQre-1wKfTn6KqTPW
   IaM-L-k&e=
 2.
   [5]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.johnsonguita
   rstudio.com_&d=DwIBAg&c=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ&r=V
   LPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E&m=5NElQyY-FjQ6PqCkDLz1SNCKT_
   X4cLNBUBcluht4OuE&s=UjUobauXF-llUFFDed9ysx4m0q1nTPudVU0J7vKgJG4&e=
 3. tel:(469) 237-0625
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [6]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.cs.dartmouth
   .edu_-7Ewbc_lute-2Dadmin_index.html&d=DwIBAg&c=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n
   1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ&r=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E&m=5NE
   lQyY-FjQ6PqCkDLz1SNCKT_X4cLNBUBcluht4OuE&s=_A9NS1WANrwz2bVQr8awRUWQKz1C
   ikjBI2_Vw29lUAI&e=

   --

References

   1. mailto:tmrguitar...@gmail.com
   2. 
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.youtube.com_watch-3Fv-3D7OYkWSW7u4k-26&d=DwIBAg&c=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ&r=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E&m=5NElQyY-FjQ6PqCkDLz1SNCKT_X4cLNBUBcluht4OuE&s=9NnOJNeNLrTSPmuUj0LfQre-1wKfTn6KqTPWIaM-L-k&e=
   3. http://www.johnsonguitarstudio.com/
   4. 
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.youtube.com_watch-3Fv-3D7OYkWSW7u4k-26&d=DwIBAg&c=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ&r=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E&m=5NElQyY-FjQ6PqCkDLz1SNCKT_X4cLNBUBcluht4OuE&s=9NnOJNeNLrTSPmuUj0LfQre-1wKfTn6KqTPWIaM-L-k&e=
   5. 
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.johnsonguitarstudio.com_&d=DwIBAg&c=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ&r=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E&m=5NElQyY-FjQ6PqCkDLz1SNCKT_X4cLNBUBcluht4OuE&s=UjUobauXF-llUFFDed9ysx4m0q1nTPudVU0J7vKgJG4&e=
   6. 
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.cs.dartmouth.edu_-7Ewbc_lute-2Dadmin_index.html&d=DwIBAg&c=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ&r=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E&m=5NElQyY-FjQ6PqCkDLz1SNCKT_X4cLNBUBcluht4OuE&s=_A9NS1WANrwz2bVQr8awRUWQKz1CikjBI2_Vw29lUAI&e=

[LUTE] Re: John Bull's Fantasy XII is Raga Yaman

[Jacob Johnson]

   I technically posted an example of quodlibet. But what you've done is
   in fact precisely the same as a mashup, wherein two disparate source
   pieces are overlaid, often with one source requiring a change of pitch
   and/or tempo. Mashups don't mean that you've edited the parts, that
   would be more like sampling or looping in digital audio production.
   Mashups require that you HAVEN'T EDITED THE PARTS. The mashup as a
   genre is only popular in the first place because the "evidence" you're
   claiming can be "discovered" with pretty much any two pieces of music,
   given matching tempi and key.
   It's just that mashups aren't real evidence. The claim you are making
   and the manner in which you are making it has precisely the same
   academic weight as if you were saying "if you start Pink Floyd's "Dark
   Side of the Moon' after the 2nd roar of the MGM lion at the beginning
   of The Wizard of Oz, you can clearly see that L. Frank Baum was a HUGE
   PINK FLOYD FAN." All you're showing us right now is the result of a
   phenomenon called apophenia. Indulging apophenia can be wildly
   entertaining and the results may even become a new piece of art in
   their own right, but research it is not.
   I like that you're thinking about similarities, but I'd just expect
   more rigor from someone who says they're a musicologist. I'm sorry, but
   even if your claims were correct your mashups on their own still
   wouldn't hold any water. Show us actual research that supports your
   claims.
   But most of all, please stop addressing the list as though we are all
   "fools".
   Regards,
   Jacob Johnson
   [uc?export=download&id=0B6_gM3BRE6ZrYVVZZU5QNmJqdDQ&revid=0B6_g
   M3BRE6ZraW9nQ2U4SGNwV0tYVWxobnNBVjBsZi9FNHhzPQ]
   Guitar/Lute
   [1]www.johnsonguitarstudio.com
   469.237.0625.
   On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 12:51 PM, Tristan von Neumann
   <[2]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote:

 it's not a mash-up, I *DID NOT EDIT THE TRACKS*
 I just placed them above each other and pitched the lute to the
 pitch of the Raga!
 How do you expect to do editing in 30 mins??
 here are the original source tracks:
 [3]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnbbk7_tFDo
 (this reveals the identity of the lutist)
 [4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCL2fpacwYA

   Am 08.02.2018 um 19:39 schrieb Jacob Johnson:

 If a mashup counts as "evidence", then I humbly submit for the
 list's
 consideration the following:
 [1][5]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OYkWSW7u4k&;
 #bigiftrue #staywoke #wakeupsheeple
 What blows my mind is how incredibly confrontational your tone
 is in
 nearly everything you post here, Tristan. It's cringey and
 strikes me
 as condescending.
 Jacob Johnson
 [uc?export=download&id=0B6_gM3BRE6ZrYVVZZU5QNmJqdDQ&
 revid=0B6_g
 M3BRE6ZraW9nQ2U4SGNwV0tYVWxobnNBVjBsZi9FNHhzPQ]
 Guitar/Lute
 [2][6]www.johnsonguitarstudio.com
 [3]469.237.0625.
 --
 References
 1. [7]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OYkWSW7u4k&;
 2. [8]http://www.johnsonguitarstudio.com/
 3. tel:[9](469) 237-0625
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 [10]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://www.johnsonguitarstudio.com/
   2. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
   3. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnbbk7_tFDo
   4. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCL2fpacwYA
   5. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OYkWSW7u4k&;
   6. http://www.johnsonguitarstudio.com/
   7. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OYkWSW7u4k&;
   8. http://www.johnsonguitarstudio.com/
   9. tel:(469) 237-0625
  10. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: John Bull's Fantasy XII is Raga Yaman

[Tristan von Neumann]

it's not a mash-up, I *DID NOT EDIT THE TRACKS*

I just placed them above each other and pitched the lute to the pitch of 
the Raga!


How do you expect to do editing in 30 mins??

here are the original source tracks:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnbbk7_tFDo

(this reveals the identity of the lutist)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCL2fpacwYA



Am 08.02.2018 um 19:39 schrieb Jacob Johnson:


If a mashup counts as "evidence", then I humbly submit for the list's
consideration the following:
[1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OYkWSW7u4k&;
#bigiftrue #staywoke #wakeupsheeple
What blows my mind is how incredibly confrontational your tone is in
nearly everything you post here, Tristan. It's cringey and strikes me
as condescending.
Jacob Johnson
[uc?export=download&id=0B6_gM3BRE6ZrYVVZZU5QNmJqdDQ&revid=0B6_g
M3BRE6ZraW9nQ2U4SGNwV0tYVWxobnNBVjBsZi9FNHhzPQ]
Guitar/Lute
[2]www.johnsonguitarstudio.com
[3]469.237.0625.

--

References

1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OYkWSW7u4k&;
2. http://www.johnsonguitarstudio.com/
3. tel:(469) 237-0625


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: John Bull's Fantasy XII is Raga Yaman

[Jacob Johnson]

   If a mashup counts as "evidence", then I humbly submit for the list's
   consideration the following:
   [1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OYkWSW7u4k&;
   #bigiftrue #staywoke #wakeupsheeple
   What blows my mind is how incredibly confrontational your tone is in
   nearly everything you post here, Tristan. It's cringey and strikes me
   as condescending.
   Jacob Johnson
   [uc?export=download&id=0B6_gM3BRE6ZrYVVZZU5QNmJqdDQ&revid=0B6_g
   M3BRE6ZraW9nQ2U4SGNwV0tYVWxobnNBVjBsZi9FNHhzPQ]
   Guitar/Lute
   [2]www.johnsonguitarstudio.com
   [3]469.237.0625.

   --

References

   1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OYkWSW7u4k&;
   2. http://www.johnsonguitarstudio.com/
   3. tel:(469) 237-0625


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: John Bull's Fantasy XII is Raga Yaman

[Braig, Eugene]

I agree perfectly.

Eugene


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
Ron Andrico
Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2018 11:32 AM
To: Susan Sandman; Tristan von Neumann
Cc: lutelist Net
Subject: [LUTE] Re: John Bull's Fantasy XII is Raga Yaman

   [Hello Susan.]

   Your excellent suggestion of applying Schenkerian analysis may help
   provide structure to what I see as a worthwhile exercise in
   cross-cultural similarities, and possibly influences, in historical
   music.

   I listened to the alignment of the two pieces with the ear of a
   composer and as an open minded individual, and I hear the
   similarities.  Mostly what I hear is a distinct alignment in terms of
   the form of the piece, musical form being a rather universal
   commonality across many different cultures and styles.  There is a
   distinct alignment in the phrase structure and the rising and falling
   of pitch groups.

   I'm no specialist but as I understand, the improvisational element in
   Indian classical music has to do with the organization of pitches
   within the framework of the phrase structure while maintaining the
   established historical forms, some of which were borrowed from ancient
   Turkish or Persian music.  This is not much different from improvising
   divisions on a renaissance ground on our instrument that was derived
   from the same Middle-Eastern background.

   Personally, I appreciate the fresh look at cross-cultural historical
   musical similarities and look forward to seeing this play out.

   RA
 __

   From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu  on behalf
   of Susan Sandman 
   Sent: Thursday, February 8, 2018 3:31 PM
   To: Tristan von Neumann
   Cc: lutelist Net
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: John Bull's Fantasy XII is Raga Yaman

  [1]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schenkerian_analysis
  Perhaps the theoretical approach of Schenker would be helpful to
  communicate the similarities you are finding between the Bull
   Fantasia,
  Raga Yaman and maybe Castello.   Schenker's system is based on the
  dynamic pull of scale tones. While to me the particularities of the
  musical elaborations unique to each composer/era/culture  is of more
  interest, his approach might clarify the unity of what you are
   hearing.
  Please consult the above link.
  Susan
  [2]www.ElizabethanConversation.com
  On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 7:02 PM Tristan von Neumann
  <[3]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote:
I would not dare to call you a fool if you actually took your time
to
listen :)
In case of my experiments I grant you, there is room for doubt.
But with Fantasy X and XII: Did you *really* listen?
(I hope your disbelief did not impair your hearing. This human
   trait
has
been proven scientifically.)
And if it's not connected, I would be very happy to know:
how do you explain the total weirdness of especially those two
fantasies? There is nothing remotely resembling this, and I have
played
and listened a lot. I would very much love to get other keyboard
pieces
in that style then, regardless :)
However (also to you, G. C.) - it is not the compatible mode, it
   is
also
basic motives of the Raga that can be found exactly at the right
place,
and the matching .
I have yet to organize a real meeting between for example a singer
and a
keyboardist.
If anything, this could be a nice intercultural exchange.
My old musicology professor by the way does agree with the
   finding.
Though due to tempo inconsistecies (if oyu change tempo digitally,
it
sound terrible) I did not post it:
If a Hindustani flute player matches Fantasy XII, it sounds like a
Castello Sonata. I will try and prepare a mix with that, but I
   have
not
yet found the right music source.
Anyone interested may get an mp3 in private email.
Am 07.02.2018 um 23:32 schrieb Arto Wikla:
> Well, I listened carefully all those example combinations of
Bull's
> harpsichord pieces and the suggested similiar(?) raga
performances, and
> sincerely I could not find much in common between them, just two
> different sound clips connected. Tristan von Neumann is of
   course
free
> to name me also "fool" even after I really listened his medleys,
but
> while I definitely strongly disagree his idea... ;-)
>
> all the best,
>
> Arto
>
> On 07/02/18 07:53, Tristan von Neumann wrote:
>>  > Those who would even want to listen are fools.
   

[LUTE] Re: John Bull's Fantasy XII is Raga Yaman

[Tristan von Neumann]

You might want to organize a concert, where the musicians play together.
Maybe you will then see. It's fun anyway!

Am 08.02.2018 um 17:17 schrieb John Mardinly:

I listened, but only a little, because I found the sound to be so
horrible I just could not stand it. So whatever the musicological
arguments, it is just not musical, IMHO.

A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
The Sleep of Reason Produces Monsters
Francisco Goya

On Feb 7, 2018, at 5:01 PM, Tristan von Neumann
<[1]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote:

I would not dare to call you a fool if you actually took your time to
listen :)
In case of my experiments I grant you, there is room for doubt.
But with Fantasy X and XII: Did you *really* listen?
(I hope your disbelief did not impair your hearing. This human trait
has been proven scientifically.)
And if it's not connected, I would be very happy to know:
how do you explain the total weirdness of especially those two
fantasies? There is nothing remotely resembling this, and I have played
and listened a lot. I would very much love to get other keyboard pieces
in that style then, regardless :)
However (also to you, G. C.) - it is not the compatible mode, it is
also basic motives of the Raga that can be found exactly at the right
place, and the matching .
I have yet to organize a real meeting between for example a singer and
a keyboardist.
If anything, this could be a nice intercultural exchange.
My old musicology professor by the way does agree with the finding.
Though due to tempo inconsistecies (if oyu change tempo digitally, it
sound terrible) I did not post it:
If a Hindustani flute player matches Fantasy XII, it sounds like a
Castello Sonata. I will try and prepare a mix with that, but I have not
yet found the right music source.
Anyone interested may get an mp3 in private email.
Am 07.02.2018 um 23:32 schrieb Arto Wikla:

  Well, I listened carefully all those example combinations of Bull's
  harpsichord pieces and the suggested similiar(?) raga performances,
  and sincerely I could not find much in common between them, just two
  different sound clips connected. Tristan von Neumann is of course
  free to name me also "fool" even after I really listened his
  medleys, but while I definitely strongly disagree his idea... ;-)
  all the best,
  Arto
  On 07/02/18 07:53, Tristan von Neumann wrote:

   > Those who would even want to listen are fools.
  Of course, those who wouldn't.
  Am 07.02.2018 um 06:48 schrieb Tristan von Neumann:

  I can't believe almost no one is excited about this discovery.
  All those who *still* doubt me, listen to this epic Raga Yaman
  accompanied by John Bull's Fantasy XII.
  I did nothing but adjust the pitch and placement of the tracks.
  [2]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__soundcloud.c
  om_tristan-2Dvon-2Dneumann_fantasy-2Dxii-2Draga-2Dyaman&d=DwIFaQ&c=l
  45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ&r=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvx
  MmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E&m=g5Mvdxr8z93ee25sSDwGuVInZTUz9gfXUg7fW3Na1WY&s
  =1xnfxUm7AExv3fynzrS7vu6HqNFQDFHxIUTqS6sE3S4&e=
  Those who would even want to listen are fools.
  Like the pope who wouldn't look through Galilei's telescope.
  Those who will listen will hear.
  To get on or off this list see list information at
  https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.cs.dartmouth
  .edu_-7Ewbc_lute-2Dadmin_index.html&d=DwIFaQ&c=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vY
  R0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ&r=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E
  &m=g5Mvdxr8z93ee25sSDwGuVInZTUz9gfXUg7fW3Na1WY&s=V6eR6A5_071tTaJdV-M
  4LEK9BGfXmWm5zbd55V9auIo&e=

--

References

1. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
2. 
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__soundcloud.com_tristan-2Dvon-2Dneumann_fantasy-2Dxii-2Draga-2Dyaman&d=DwIFaQ&c=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ&r=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E&m=g5Mvdxr8z93ee25sSDwGuVInZTUz9gfXUg7fW3Na1WY&s=1xnfxUm7AExv3fynzrS7vu6HqNFQDFHxIUTqS6sE3S4&e=

[LUTE] Re: John Bull's Fantasy XII is Raga Yaman

[John Mardinly]

   I listened, but only a little, because I found the sound to be so
   horrible I just could not stand it. So whatever the musicological
   arguments, it is just not musical, IMHO.

   A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
   The Sleep of Reason Produces Monsters
   Francisco Goya

   On Feb 7, 2018, at 5:01 PM, Tristan von Neumann
   <[1]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote:

   I would not dare to call you a fool if you actually took your time to
   listen :)
   In case of my experiments I grant you, there is room for doubt.
   But with Fantasy X and XII: Did you *really* listen?
   (I hope your disbelief did not impair your hearing. This human trait
   has been proven scientifically.)
   And if it's not connected, I would be very happy to know:
   how do you explain the total weirdness of especially those two
   fantasies? There is nothing remotely resembling this, and I have played
   and listened a lot. I would very much love to get other keyboard pieces
   in that style then, regardless :)
   However (also to you, G. C.) - it is not the compatible mode, it is
   also basic motives of the Raga that can be found exactly at the right
   place, and the matching .
   I have yet to organize a real meeting between for example a singer and
   a keyboardist.
   If anything, this could be a nice intercultural exchange.
   My old musicology professor by the way does agree with the finding.
   Though due to tempo inconsistecies (if oyu change tempo digitally, it
   sound terrible) I did not post it:
   If a Hindustani flute player matches Fantasy XII, it sounds like a
   Castello Sonata. I will try and prepare a mix with that, but I have not
   yet found the right music source.
   Anyone interested may get an mp3 in private email.
   Am 07.02.2018 um 23:32 schrieb Arto Wikla:

 Well, I listened carefully all those example combinations of Bull's
 harpsichord pieces and the suggested similiar(?) raga performances,
 and sincerely I could not find much in common between them, just two
 different sound clips connected. Tristan von Neumann is of course
 free to name me also "fool" even after I really listened his
 medleys, but while I definitely strongly disagree his idea... ;-)
 all the best,
 Arto
 On 07/02/18 07:53, Tristan von Neumann wrote:

  > Those who would even want to listen are fools.
 Of course, those who wouldn't.
 Am 07.02.2018 um 06:48 schrieb Tristan von Neumann:

 I can't believe almost no one is excited about this discovery.
 All those who *still* doubt me, listen to this epic Raga Yaman
 accompanied by John Bull's Fantasy XII.
 I did nothing but adjust the pitch and placement of the tracks.
 [2]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__soundcloud.c
 om_tristan-2Dvon-2Dneumann_fantasy-2Dxii-2Draga-2Dyaman&d=DwIFaQ&c=l
 45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ&r=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvx
 MmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E&m=g5Mvdxr8z93ee25sSDwGuVInZTUz9gfXUg7fW3Na1WY&s
 =1xnfxUm7AExv3fynzrS7vu6HqNFQDFHxIUTqS6sE3S4&e=
 Those who would even want to listen are fools.
 Like the pope who wouldn't look through Galilei's telescope.
 Those who will listen will hear.
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.cs.dartmouth
 .edu_-7Ewbc_lute-2Dadmin_index.html&d=DwIFaQ&c=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vY
 R0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ&r=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E
 &m=g5Mvdxr8z93ee25sSDwGuVInZTUz9gfXUg7fW3Na1WY&s=V6eR6A5_071tTaJdV-M
 4LEK9BGfXmWm5zbd55V9auIo&e=

   --

References

   1. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
   2. 
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__soundcloud.com_tristan-2Dvon-2Dneumann_fantasy-2Dxii-2Draga-2Dyaman&d=DwIFaQ&c=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ&r=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E&m=g5Mvdxr8z93ee25sSDwGuVInZTUz9gfXUg7fW3Na1WY&s=1xnfxUm7AExv3fynzrS7vu6HqNFQDFHxIUTqS6sE3S4&e=

[LUTE] Re: John Bull's Fantasy XII is Raga Yaman

[Braig, Eugene]

Excellent suggestion.

Eugene


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
Susan Sandman
Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2018 10:32 AM
To: Tristan von Neumann
Cc: lutelist Net
Subject: [LUTE] Re: John Bull's Fantasy XII is Raga Yaman

   [1]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schenkerian_analysis
   Perhaps the theoretical approach of Schenker would be helpful to
   communicate the similarities you are finding between the Bull Fantasia,
   Raga Yaman and maybe Castello.   Schenker's system is based on the
   dynamic pull of scale tones. While to me the particularities of the
   musical elaborations unique to each composer/era/culture  is of more
   interest, his approach might clarify the unity of what you are hearing.
   Please consult the above link.

   Susan

   [2]www.ElizabethanConversation.com

   On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 7:02 PM Tristan von Neumann
   <[3]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote:

 I would not dare to call you a fool if you actually took your time
 to
 listen :)
 In case of my experiments I grant you, there is room for doubt.
 But with Fantasy X and XII: Did you *really* listen?
 (I hope your disbelief did not impair your hearing. This human trait
 has
 been proven scientifically.)
 And if it's not connected, I would be very happy to know:
 how do you explain the total weirdness of especially those two
 fantasies? There is nothing remotely resembling this, and I have
 played
 and listened a lot. I would very much love to get other keyboard
 pieces
 in that style then, regardless :)
 However (also to you, G. C.) - it is not the compatible mode, it is
 also
 basic motives of the Raga that can be found exactly at the right
 place,
 and the matching .
 I have yet to organize a real meeting between for example a singer
 and a
 keyboardist.
 If anything, this could be a nice intercultural exchange.
 My old musicology professor by the way does agree with the finding.
 Though due to tempo inconsistecies (if oyu change tempo digitally,
 it
 sound terrible) I did not post it:
 If a Hindustani flute player matches Fantasy XII, it sounds like a
 Castello Sonata. I will try and prepare a mix with that, but I have
 not
 yet found the right music source.
 Anyone interested may get an mp3 in private email.
 Am 07.02.2018 um 23:32 schrieb Arto Wikla:
 > Well, I listened carefully all those example combinations of
 Bull's
 > harpsichord pieces and the suggested similiar(?) raga
 performances, and
 > sincerely I could not find much in common between them, just two
 > different sound clips connected. Tristan von Neumann is of course
 free
 > to name me also "fool" even after I really listened his medleys,
 but
 > while I definitely strongly disagree his idea... ;-)
 >
 > all the best,
 >
 > Arto
 >
 > On 07/02/18 07:53, Tristan von Neumann wrote:
 >>  > Those who would even want to listen are fools.
 >>
 >> Of course, those who wouldn't.
 >>
 >> Am 07.02.2018 um 06:48 schrieb Tristan von Neumann:
 >>> I can't believe almost no one is excited about this discovery.
 >>>
 >>> All those who *still* doubt me, listen to this epic Raga Yaman
 >>> accompanied by John Bull's Fantasy XII.
 >>> I did nothing but adjust the pitch and placement of the tracks.
 >>>
 >>>
 [4]https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/fantasy-xii-raga-yaman
 >>>
 >>> Those who would even want to listen are fools.
 >>> Like the pope who wouldn't look through Galilei's telescope.
 >>>
 >>> Those who will listen will hear.
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>
 >>> To get on or off this list see list information at
 >>> [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 >>>
 >>
 >>
 >
 >
 >

   --

References

   1. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schenkerian_analysis
   2. http://www.ElizabethanConversation.com/
   3. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
   4. https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/fantasy-xii-raga-yaman
   5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: John Bull's Fantasy XII is Raga Yaman

[Braig, Eugene]

I've conceded that i do hear.  I will also concede to the possibility of 
interaction and influence, but not necessarily to "based upon" without greater 
evidence.  I do not believe you to be a con artist and would not want to imply 
such.  (My "joke" reference was regarding your seemingly comical aggressiveness 
in defending this hypothesis and your interjection of emoticons.  I perhaps 
read more into that than I should have.)

Note that you choose to adjust at which point the alignment begins.  I have not 
been provided evidence that what follows the point of alignment is more than 
the coincidences of Indo-European musical constructs.  You've not addressed my 
point that Indian classical music incorporates improvisation and that modern 
performances of such may have just as likely been influenced by hearing 
European renaissance composition.  Supporting evidence may be confirmation in 
the writings of renaissance composers or their contemporaries alluding to a 
composition being directly based upon a raga or even titled to imply such.  
There is plenty of writing *about* music making from the era.

I am bragging about nothing (the name, by the way, is pronounced like "bregg"), 
but simply trying to explain the origins of my personal perspective.  My 
education is not necessarily any better than anybody else's, but may be 
different.

I'm not certain I have much more to say on this.

Eugene


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
Tristan von Neumann
Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2018 10:30 AM
To: lutelist Net
Subject: [LUTE] Re: John Bull's Fantasy XII is Raga Yaman

Well then, let's make this public then.

Yes, you are living in darkness for not wanting to hear the relation!

You basically accuse me of being a con artist. This is not ok.
I don't even want your money, I am *giving* you my discovery for pure joy of 
discovery.

Let's make this a challenge (this for everyone).

The Echo Fantasia is not really a difficult work for a normal Organist.
If you know any Indian Classical musician, and an organist, have the latter 
play, and the former listen to it and have him choose a Raga.
I bet it will be Aswari (Fantasia ex A = Aswari!), and I say he will be able to 
perform his Raga. Add a tabla player for the right rhythm.

Eugene, there is no need to Braig about your "scientific education".
If experiments don't convince you, what then? The discussion? The conclusion?
Again, let this sink in: I did not edit the tracks! It works every time!
If the Raga performance is longer, you can even loop the Fantasy and you get 
new aspects of the Raga matching them. The sections always match, and there are 
distinct functions of the segments, and these are even imitated in the Keyboard 
works, down to the exact gestures.
Why are you not able to hear that?
Dudes, the "Stretta" that appears after 1600 is *Indian*.

But as it says in the Bible and countless other stories:
Those who don't want to see the truth are blind.
Or in this case, hear.

I cannot say if my peers are like the blind ones or not.

What I can say is that I will publish my findings one way or the other - for 
those who are not hearing it already, it probably must be.

Have a great one.
And thanks to all those who like my discovery. Be sure to follow my soundcloud 
for new pieces.
I suspect Dowland is a key person, so I will try to find Ragas for the 
Fantasies. I will NOT post these here with the naysayers, and for fear of 
Arthur Ness getting a heart attack.

Add me on soundcloud:
https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/sets/early-17th-century-euro-indian

Have a great day you all. I pray for the naysayers.

Am 08.02.2018 um 16:11 schrieb Braig, Eugene:
> Tristan wrote to me directly without copying the list.  Out of respect to 
> whatever his intent may be, I will not forward his personal reply.  I will, 
> however, share my own replies to him:
> 
> "Yeah, I don't mind looking foolish.  Given the semi-improvisatorial nature 
> of Indian classical music, any modern recording of raga to overlay any set 
> renaissance composition must be coincidental.  Given humanity's aural 
> expectation of resolving to a cadence or nyasa [the Indian version of 
> cadence], I would assume a fair number of coincidences between the two would 
> occur.  Assuming conclusive proof of causation (instead of simple 
> coincidence) without supporting documentation strikes me as fallacious.  I am 
> a scientist on the day job and my parlance is skepticism."
> 
> 
> Thinking more on this, if a modern recording of semi-improvised raga does 
> overlay a written renaissance fantasia by virtue of inspiration, that 
> inspiration is more likely to have been in the opposite direction of that 
> proposed.
> 
> And, regarding why sections 

[LUTE] Re: John Bull's Fantasy XII is Raga Yaman

[Tristan von Neumann]

Thank you Susan!
I am aware of Schenker - I studied musicology back in the day.
This would be indeed the best approach, but I guess it is possible to 
find the exact match when analyzing just what is there.
Indian understanding - as it appears to me - basically *is* Schenkerian, 
so I guess this step could be skipped.


What is your opinion about the Echo Fantasy?

https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/sweelinck-echo-fantasia-ex-a-raga-asawari


Am 08.02.2018 um 16:31 schrieb Susan Sandman:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schenkerian_analysis

Perhaps the theoretical approach of Schenker would be helpful to 
communicate the similarities you are finding between the Bull Fantasia, 
Raga Yaman and maybe Castello.  Schenker’s system is based on the 
dynamic pull of scale tones. While to me the particularities of the 
musical elaborations unique to each composer/era/culture  is of more 
interest, his approach might clarify the unity of what you are hearing. 
Please consult the above link.

Susan
www.ElizabethanConversation.com 

On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 7:02 PM Tristan von Neumann 
mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de>> wrote:


I would not dare to call you a fool if you actually took your time to
listen :)
In case of my experiments I grant you, there is room for doubt.
But with Fantasy X and XII: Did you *really* listen?
(I hope your disbelief did not impair your hearing. This human trait has
been proven scientifically.)
And if it's not connected, I would be very happy to know:
how do you explain the total weirdness of especially those two
fantasies? There is nothing remotely resembling this, and I have played
and listened a lot. I would very much love to get other keyboard pieces
in that style then, regardless :)

However (also to you, G. C.) - it is not the compatible mode, it is also
basic motives of the Raga that can be found exactly at the right place,
and the matching .
I have yet to organize a real meeting between for example a singer and a
keyboardist.
If anything, this could be a nice intercultural exchange.

My old musicology professor by the way does agree with the finding.
Though due to tempo inconsistecies (if oyu change tempo digitally, it
sound terrible) I did not post it:
If a Hindustani flute player matches Fantasy XII, it sounds like a
Castello Sonata. I will try and prepare a mix with that, but I have not
yet found the right music source.
Anyone interested may get an mp3 in private email.


Am 07.02.2018 um 23:32 schrieb Arto Wikla:
 > Well, I listened carefully all those example combinations of Bull's
 > harpsichord pieces and the suggested similiar(?) raga
performances, and
 > sincerely I could not find much in common between them, just two
 > different sound clips connected. Tristan von Neumann is of course
free
 > to name me also "fool" even after I really listened his medleys, but
 > while I definitely strongly disagree his idea... ;-)
 >
 > all the best,
 >
 > Arto
 >
 > On 07/02/18 07:53, Tristan von Neumann wrote:
 >>  > Those who would even want to listen are fools.
 >>
 >> Of course, those who wouldn't.
 >>
 >> Am 07.02.2018 um 06:48 schrieb Tristan von Neumann:
 >>> I can't believe almost no one is excited about this discovery.
 >>>
 >>> All those who *still* doubt me, listen to this epic Raga Yaman
 >>> accompanied by John Bull's Fantasy XII.
 >>> I did nothing but adjust the pitch and placement of the tracks.
 >>>
 >>> https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/fantasy-xii-raga-yaman
 >>>
 >>> Those who would even want to listen are fools.
 >>> Like the pope who wouldn't look through Galilei's telescope.
 >>>
 >>> Those who will listen will hear.
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>
 >>> To get on or off this list see list information at
 >>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 >>>
 >>
 >>
 >
 >
 >

[LUTE] Re: John Bull's Fantasy XII is Raga Yaman

[Susan Sandman]

   [1]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schenkerian_analysis
   Perhaps the theoretical approach of Schenker would be helpful to
   communicate the similarities you are finding between the Bull Fantasia,
   Raga Yaman and maybe Castello.   Schenker's system is based on the
   dynamic pull of scale tones. While to me the particularities of the
   musical elaborations unique to each composer/era/culture  is of more
   interest, his approach might clarify the unity of what you are hearing.
   Please consult the above link.

   Susan

   [2]www.ElizabethanConversation.com

   On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 7:02 PM Tristan von Neumann
   <[3]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote:

 I would not dare to call you a fool if you actually took your time
 to
 listen :)
 In case of my experiments I grant you, there is room for doubt.
 But with Fantasy X and XII: Did you *really* listen?
 (I hope your disbelief did not impair your hearing. This human trait
 has
 been proven scientifically.)
 And if it's not connected, I would be very happy to know:
 how do you explain the total weirdness of especially those two
 fantasies? There is nothing remotely resembling this, and I have
 played
 and listened a lot. I would very much love to get other keyboard
 pieces
 in that style then, regardless :)
 However (also to you, G. C.) - it is not the compatible mode, it is
 also
 basic motives of the Raga that can be found exactly at the right
 place,
 and the matching .
 I have yet to organize a real meeting between for example a singer
 and a
 keyboardist.
 If anything, this could be a nice intercultural exchange.
 My old musicology professor by the way does agree with the finding.
 Though due to tempo inconsistecies (if oyu change tempo digitally,
 it
 sound terrible) I did not post it:
 If a Hindustani flute player matches Fantasy XII, it sounds like a
 Castello Sonata. I will try and prepare a mix with that, but I have
 not
 yet found the right music source.
 Anyone interested may get an mp3 in private email.
 Am 07.02.2018 um 23:32 schrieb Arto Wikla:
 > Well, I listened carefully all those example combinations of
 Bull's
 > harpsichord pieces and the suggested similiar(?) raga
 performances, and
 > sincerely I could not find much in common between them, just two
 > different sound clips connected. Tristan von Neumann is of course
 free
 > to name me also "fool" even after I really listened his medleys,
 but
 > while I definitely strongly disagree his idea... ;-)
 >
 > all the best,
 >
 > Arto
 >
 > On 07/02/18 07:53, Tristan von Neumann wrote:
 >>  > Those who would even want to listen are fools.
 >>
 >> Of course, those who wouldn't.
 >>
 >> Am 07.02.2018 um 06:48 schrieb Tristan von Neumann:
 >>> I can't believe almost no one is excited about this discovery.
 >>>
 >>> All those who *still* doubt me, listen to this epic Raga Yaman
 >>> accompanied by John Bull's Fantasy XII.
 >>> I did nothing but adjust the pitch and placement of the tracks.
 >>>
 >>>
 [4]https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/fantasy-xii-raga-yaman
 >>>
 >>> Those who would even want to listen are fools.
 >>> Like the pope who wouldn't look through Galilei's telescope.
 >>>
 >>> Those who will listen will hear.
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>
 >>> To get on or off this list see list information at
 >>> [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 >>>
 >>
 >>
 >
 >
 >

   --

References

   1. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schenkerian_analysis
   2. http://www.ElizabethanConversation.com/
   3. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
   4. https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/fantasy-xii-raga-yaman
   5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: John Bull's Fantasy XII is Raga Yaman

[Tristan von Neumann]

Well then, let's make this public then.

Yes, you are living in darkness for not wanting to hear the relation!

You basically accuse me of being a con artist. This is not ok.
I don't even want your money, I am *giving* you my discovery for pure 
joy of discovery.


Let's make this a challenge (this for everyone).

The Echo Fantasia is not really a difficult work for a normal Organist.
If you know any Indian Classical musician, and an organist, have the 
latter play, and the former listen to it and have him choose a Raga.
I bet it will be Aswari (Fantasia ex A = Aswari!), and I say he will be 
able to perform his Raga. Add a tabla player for the right rhythm.


Eugene, there is no need to Braig about your "scientific education".
If experiments don't convince you, what then? The discussion? The 
conclusion?

Again, let this sink in: I did not edit the tracks! It works every time!
If the Raga performance is longer, you can even loop the Fantasy and you 
get new aspects of the Raga matching them. The sections always match, 
and there are distinct functions of the segments, and these are even 
imitated in the Keyboard works, down to the exact gestures.

Why are you not able to hear that?
Dudes, the "Stretta" that appears after 1600 is *Indian*.

But as it says in the Bible and countless other stories:
Those who don't want to see the truth are blind.
Or in this case, hear.

I cannot say if my peers are like the blind ones or not.

What I can say is that I will publish my findings one way or the other - 
for those who are not hearing it already, it probably must be.


Have a great one.
And thanks to all those who like my discovery. Be sure to follow my 
soundcloud for new pieces.
I suspect Dowland is a key person, so I will try to find Ragas for the 
Fantasies. I will NOT post these here with the naysayers, and for fear 
of Arthur Ness getting a heart attack.


Add me on soundcloud:
https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/sets/early-17th-century-euro-indian

Have a great day you all. I pray for the naysayers.

Am 08.02.2018 um 16:11 schrieb Braig, Eugene:

Tristan wrote to me directly without copying the list.  Out of respect to 
whatever his intent may be, I will not forward his personal reply.  I will, 
however, share my own replies to him:

"Yeah, I don't mind looking foolish.  Given the semi-improvisatorial nature of 
Indian classical music, any modern recording of raga to overlay any set renaissance 
composition must be coincidental.  Given humanity's aural expectation of resolving to a 
cadence or nyasa [the Indian version of cadence], I would assume a fair number of 
coincidences between the two would occur.  Assuming conclusive proof of causation 
(instead of simple coincidence) without supporting documentation strikes me as 
fallacious.  I am a scientist on the day job and my parlance is skepticism."


Thinking more on this, if a modern recording of semi-improvised raga does 
overlay a written renaissance fantasia by virtue of inspiration, that 
inspiration is more likely to have been in the opposite direction of that 
proposed.

And, regarding why sections might roughly align between raga and renaissance fantasia and that the 
inability to "hear" constitutes my own dwelling in "darkness" (the tastiest 
criticisms are omitted here), this was followed by:

"Coincidence.  Music tends to be organized into 'sections' wherever it's occurred.  
The expectation of evidence beyond coincidence doesn't feel like darkness to me."


To the first note I had appended:

"I would have copied this [reply] to the list, but am not certain why you didn't, 
Tristan.  I suspect it may be to contain a joke, to see how far it can be carried among 
the uninitiated."


I will await the scholarly publication following peer review.

My best wishes are with you all.

Eugene


-Original Message-----
From: Braig, Eugene
Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2018 9:19 AM
To: lutelist Net
Subject: RE: [LUTE] Re: John Bull's Fantasy XII is Raga Yaman

Aye.  Thank you, gentlemen.

Eugene


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
G. C.
Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2018 5:46 PM
To: lutelist Net
Subject: [LUTE] Re: John Bull's Fantasy XII is Raga Yaman

I agree with you Arto. The first example is quite amazing in its
compatibility. Due to a common scale, the forced duet somehow sounds
compatible. I would say a musical quirk and a coincidence. How could
Indian music be compatible with Western renaissance. No chance!
And the other examples are even less impressive, even contradictive.
Nice try Tristan! :)
G.
On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 11:32 PM, Arto Wikla <[1]wi...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
wrote:

  Well, I listened carefully all those example combinations of Bull's
  harpsichord pieces 

[LUTE] Re: John Bull's Fantasy XII is Raga Yaman

[Braig, Eugene]

Tristan wrote to me directly without copying the list.  Out of respect to 
whatever his intent may be, I will not forward his personal reply.  I will, 
however, share my own replies to him:

"Yeah, I don't mind looking foolish.  Given the semi-improvisatorial nature of 
Indian classical music, any modern recording of raga to overlay any set 
renaissance composition must be coincidental.  Given humanity's aural 
expectation of resolving to a cadence or nyasa [the Indian version of cadence], 
I would assume a fair number of coincidences between the two would occur.  
Assuming conclusive proof of causation (instead of simple coincidence) without 
supporting documentation strikes me as fallacious.  I am a scientist on the day 
job and my parlance is skepticism."


Thinking more on this, if a modern recording of semi-improvised raga does 
overlay a written renaissance fantasia by virtue of inspiration, that 
inspiration is more likely to have been in the opposite direction of that 
proposed.

And, regarding why sections might roughly align between raga and renaissance 
fantasia and that the inability to "hear" constitutes my own dwelling in 
"darkness" (the tastiest criticisms are omitted here), this was followed by:

"Coincidence.  Music tends to be organized into 'sections' wherever it's 
occurred.  The expectation of evidence beyond coincidence doesn't feel like 
darkness to me."


To the first note I had appended:

"I would have copied this [reply] to the list, but am not certain why you 
didn't, Tristan.  I suspect it may be to contain a joke, to see how far it can 
be carried among the uninitiated."


I will await the scholarly publication following peer review.

My best wishes are with you all.

Eugene


-Original Message-
From: Braig, Eugene 
Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2018 9:19 AM
To: lutelist Net
Subject: RE: [LUTE] Re: John Bull's Fantasy XII is Raga Yaman

Aye.  Thank you, gentlemen.

Eugene


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
G. C.
Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2018 5:46 PM
To: lutelist Net
Subject: [LUTE] Re: John Bull's Fantasy XII is Raga Yaman

   I agree with you Arto. The first example is quite amazing in its
   compatibility. Due to a common scale, the forced duet somehow sounds
   compatible. I would say a musical quirk and a coincidence. How could
   Indian music be compatible with Western renaissance. No chance!
   And the other examples are even less impressive, even contradictive.
   Nice try Tristan! :)
   G.
   On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 11:32 PM, Arto Wikla <[1]wi...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   wrote:

 Well, I listened carefully all those example combinations of Bull's
 harpsichord pieces and the suggested similiar(?) raga performances,
 and sincerely I could not find much in common between them, just two
 different sound clips connected. Tristan von Neumann is of course
 free to name me also "fool" even after I really listened his
 medleys, but while I definitely strongly disagree his idea... ;-)
 all the best,
 Arto
 On 07/02/18 07:53, Tristan von Neumann wrote:

  > Those who would even want to listen are fools.
 Of course, those who wouldn't.
 Am 07.02.2018 um 06:48 schrieb Tristan von Neumann:

 I can't believe almost no one is excited about this discovery.
 All those who *still* doubt me, listen to this epic Raga Yaman
 accompanied by John Bull's Fantasy XII.
 I did nothing but adjust the pitch and placement of the tracks.
 [2]https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/fantasy-xii-raga-yaman
 Those who would even want to listen are fools.
 Like the pope who wouldn't look through Galilei's telescope.
 Those who will listen will hear.
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. mailto:wi...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   2. https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/fantasy-xii-raga-yaman
   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: John Bull's Fantasy XII is Raga Yaman

[Braig, Eugene]

Aye.  Thank you, gentlemen.

Eugene


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
G. C.
Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2018 5:46 PM
To: lutelist Net
Subject: [LUTE] Re: John Bull's Fantasy XII is Raga Yaman

   I agree with you Arto. The first example is quite amazing in its
   compatibility. Due to a common scale, the forced duet somehow sounds
   compatible. I would say a musical quirk and a coincidence. How could
   Indian music be compatible with Western renaissance. No chance!
   And the other examples are even less impressive, even contradictive.
   Nice try Tristan! :)
   G.
   On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 11:32 PM, Arto Wikla <[1]wi...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   wrote:

 Well, I listened carefully all those example combinations of Bull's
 harpsichord pieces and the suggested similiar(?) raga performances,
 and sincerely I could not find much in common between them, just two
 different sound clips connected. Tristan von Neumann is of course
 free to name me also "fool" even after I really listened his
 medleys, but while I definitely strongly disagree his idea... ;-)
 all the best,
 Arto
 On 07/02/18 07:53, Tristan von Neumann wrote:

  > Those who would even want to listen are fools.
 Of course, those who wouldn't.
 Am 07.02.2018 um 06:48 schrieb Tristan von Neumann:

 I can't believe almost no one is excited about this discovery.
 All those who *still* doubt me, listen to this epic Raga Yaman
 accompanied by John Bull's Fantasy XII.
 I did nothing but adjust the pitch and placement of the tracks.
 [2]https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/fantasy-xii-raga-yaman
 Those who would even want to listen are fools.
 Like the pope who wouldn't look through Galilei's telescope.
 Those who will listen will hear.
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. mailto:wi...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   2. https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/fantasy-xii-raga-yaman
   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: John Bull's Fantasy XII is Raga Yaman

[Tristan von Neumann]

I would not dare to call you a fool if you actually took your time to 
listen :)

In case of my experiments I grant you, there is room for doubt.
But with Fantasy X and XII: Did you *really* listen?
(I hope your disbelief did not impair your hearing. This human trait has 
been proven scientifically.)

And if it's not connected, I would be very happy to know:
how do you explain the total weirdness of especially those two 
fantasies? There is nothing remotely resembling this, and I have played 
and listened a lot. I would very much love to get other keyboard pieces 
in that style then, regardless :)


However (also to you, G. C.) - it is not the compatible mode, it is also 
basic motives of the Raga that can be found exactly at the right place, 
and the matching .
I have yet to organize a real meeting between for example a singer and a 
keyboardist.

If anything, this could be a nice intercultural exchange.

My old musicology professor by the way does agree with the finding.
Though due to tempo inconsistecies (if oyu change tempo digitally, it 
sound terrible) I did not post it:
If a Hindustani flute player matches Fantasy XII, it sounds like a 
Castello Sonata. I will try and prepare a mix with that, but I have not 
yet found the right music source.

Anyone interested may get an mp3 in private email.


Am 07.02.2018 um 23:32 schrieb Arto Wikla:
Well, I listened carefully all those example combinations of Bull's 
harpsichord pieces and the suggested similiar(?) raga performances, and 
sincerely I could not find much in common between them, just two 
different sound clips connected. Tristan von Neumann is of course free 
to name me also "fool" even after I really listened his medleys, but 
while I definitely strongly disagree his idea... ;-)


all the best,

Arto

On 07/02/18 07:53, Tristan von Neumann wrote:

 > Those who would even want to listen are fools.

Of course, those who wouldn't.

Am 07.02.2018 um 06:48 schrieb Tristan von Neumann:

I can't believe almost no one is excited about this discovery.

All those who *still* doubt me, listen to this epic Raga Yaman
accompanied by John Bull's Fantasy XII.
I did nothing but adjust the pitch and placement of the tracks.

https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/fantasy-xii-raga-yaman

Those who would even want to listen are fools.
Like the pope who wouldn't look through Galilei's telescope.

Those who will listen will hear.



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: John Bull's Fantasy XII is Raga Yaman

[G. C.]

   I agree with you Arto. The first example is quite amazing in its
   compatibility. Due to a common scale, the forced duet somehow sounds
   compatible. I would say a musical quirk and a coincidence. How could
   Indian music be compatible with Western renaissance. No chance!
   And the other examples are even less impressive, even contradictive.
   Nice try Tristan! :)
   G.
   On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 11:32 PM, Arto Wikla <[1]wi...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   wrote:

 Well, I listened carefully all those example combinations of Bull's
 harpsichord pieces and the suggested similiar(?) raga performances,
 and sincerely I could not find much in common between them, just two
 different sound clips connected. Tristan von Neumann is of course
 free to name me also "fool" even after I really listened his
 medleys, but while I definitely strongly disagree his idea... ;-)
 all the best,
 Arto
 On 07/02/18 07:53, Tristan von Neumann wrote:

  > Those who would even want to listen are fools.
 Of course, those who wouldn't.
 Am 07.02.2018 um 06:48 schrieb Tristan von Neumann:

 I can't believe almost no one is excited about this discovery.
 All those who *still* doubt me, listen to this epic Raga Yaman
 accompanied by John Bull's Fantasy XII.
 I did nothing but adjust the pitch and placement of the tracks.
 [2]https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/fantasy-xii-raga-yaman
 Those who would even want to listen are fools.
 Like the pope who wouldn't look through Galilei's telescope.
 Those who will listen will hear.
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. mailto:wi...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   2. https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/fantasy-xii-raga-yaman
   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: John Bull's Fantasy XII is Raga Yaman

[Arto Wikla]

Well, I listened carefully all those example combinations of Bull's 
harpsichord pieces and the suggested similiar(?) raga performances, and 
sincerely I could not find much in common between them, just two 
different sound clips connected. Tristan von Neumann is of course free 
to name me also "fool" even after I really listened his medleys, but 
while I definitely strongly disagree his idea... ;-)


all the best,

Arto

On 07/02/18 07:53, Tristan von Neumann wrote:

 > Those who would even want to listen are fools.

Of course, those who wouldn't.

Am 07.02.2018 um 06:48 schrieb Tristan von Neumann:

I can't believe almost no one is excited about this discovery.

All those who *still* doubt me, listen to this epic Raga Yaman
accompanied by John Bull's Fantasy XII.
I did nothing but adjust the pitch and placement of the tracks.

https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/fantasy-xii-raga-yaman

Those who would even want to listen are fools.
Like the pope who wouldn't look through Galilei's telescope.

Those who will listen will hear.



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: John Bull's Fantasy XII is Raga Yaman

[Mark Seifert]

   Dear Tristan,
   I'm super excited about your discovery, and thank you many times for
   providing it,
   as well as your other notes which are much appreciated.  There must
   have been
   a lot more intercultural exchange back then than what we read in
   standard history books.
   I recently got a book from Daedalus titled "The Queen and the Sultan"
   about Queen Elizabeth I's communications
   and trading/ambassadorial exchanges with the Persian shah of that
   period, who had been humbled by
   a defeat at the hands of the sunni Turks.   Queen Elizabeth's
   youthful representative had to sail north (to avoid Mediterranean
   pirates/Turks) and approach Persia via northern
   Russia/Central Asia and the Ukraine, completing a perilous journey.  He
   didn't have much of value (mainly woolen cloth)
   with which to trade when he arrived.
   On the Galileo issue, I remember in Dava Sobel's book "Galileo's
   Daughter" she
   reports how a certain elderly (I believe German) Dominican cardinal
   in Rome claimed that Galileo's Medician satellites of Jupiter were mere
   aberrations
   in his telescope lenses, and refused to give credence.   Shortly
   thereafter, this skeptical
   clergyman died, and Galileo charitably reported in his public writings
   regarding this
   prelate:"While on earth, he was unable
   to see the Medician satellites.  Perhaps while wending his way to
   heaven,
   he shall finally see them."  Sobel didn't mention Galileo offering a
   telescopic view
   to the Pope, but he did set up his telescope for high clergymen in
   Venice
   who were most impressed with what they saw.
   Best regards,
   Mark Seifert

   On Tuesday, February 6, 2018 9:55 PM, Tristan von Neumann
wrote:
   > Those who would even want to listen are fools.
   Of course, those who wouldn't.
   Am 07.02.2018 um 06:48 schrieb Tristan von Neumann:
   > I can't believe almost no one is excited about this discovery.
   >
   > All those who *still* doubt me, listen to this epic Raga Yaman
   > accompanied by John Bull's Fantasy XII.
   > I did nothing but adjust the pitch and placement of the tracks.
   >
   > [1]https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/fantasy-xii-raga-yaman
   >
   > Those who would even want to listen are fools.
   > Like the pope who wouldn't look through Galilei's telescope.
   >
   > Those who will listen will hear.
   >
   >
   >
   > To get on or off this list see list information at
   > [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   >

   --

References

   1. https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/fantasy-xii-raga-yaman
   2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: John Bull's Fantasy XII is Raga Yaman

[Tristan von Neumann]

> Those who would even want to listen are fools.

Of course, those who wouldn't.

Am 07.02.2018 um 06:48 schrieb Tristan von Neumann:

I can't believe almost no one is excited about this discovery.

All those who *still* doubt me, listen to this epic Raga Yaman
accompanied by John Bull's Fantasy XII.
I did nothing but adjust the pitch and placement of the tracks.

https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/fantasy-xii-raga-yaman

Those who would even want to listen are fools.
Like the pope who wouldn't look through Galilei's telescope.

Those who will listen will hear.



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html