[LUTE] Re: Les charmes de la vie - Watteau
I don't really see it? It looks like the hand is firmly stabilized to get good control of the peg. One could argue that the peg would be a bit high compared to the others. On 17.07.20 11:50, Monica Hall wrote: "Les charmes de la vie" is a well-known painting by Watteau in the Wallace Collection. You just need to put in the title "Les charmes de la vie" to bring up several examples of it. However, what puzzles me is the odd position of his left arm and hand which seem to me to be anatomically impossible. It looks as if his fingers are stopping the back of the neck. Even if he was tuning it it couldn't be like that. What do the rest of you think. Am I missing somthing crucial? As ever Monica -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Les charmes de la vie - Watteau
He is obviously using his left hand thumb for something. On the petit jueu it seems. Maybe plucking a string in the tuning process. G -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Les charmes de la vie - Watteau
Am Freitag, 17. Juli 2020 11:50 CEST, Monica Hall schrieb: [...] > However, what puzzles me is the odd position of his left arm and hand which > seem to me to be anatomically impossible. It looks as if his fingers are > stopping the back of the neck. Even if he was tuning it it couldn't be like > that. What do the rest of you think. Am I missing somthing crucial? I can't see any problem - the theorbo player is tuning his 5th string. Thumb and index finger on the peg, little finger curled in, the middle two used to support the back of the pegbox. Cheers, RalfD > As ever > > Monica > -- > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Ralf Mattes Hochschule für Musik Freiburg Projektleitung HISinOne Schwarzwaldstr. 141, D-79102 Freiburg http://www.mh-freiburg.de
[LUTE] Re: Les charmes de la vie - Watteau
Dear Monica, There's another related Watteau painting in the Wallace collection (Pour nous prouver que cette belle) showing the same hand in much more detail. Different instrument so the pegbox is a bit narrower and that maybe makes the hand more possible. But the brushwork here shows that Watteau clearly enjoyed the extreme muscularity and effort of the fingers which is such a contrast to the languid feeling of the rest of the painting. These fingers are in many ways the focal point of the painting and the difficulty is the message. I think the other commenters are right, it is the two middle fingers holding up the pegbox while the first finger and thumb turn the peg. The little finger meanwhile is curled up with the effort. You can see it here thanks to the ArtUK collection. https://artuk.org/discover/artworks/pour-nous-prouver-que-cette-belle-209396/view_as/grid/search/keyword:pour-nous-prouver-que-cette-belle/page/1# Best wishes, David At 10:50 +0100 17/7/20, Monica Hall wrote: "Les charmes de la vie" is a well-known painting by Watteau in the Wallace Collection. You just need to put in the title "Les charmes de la vie" to bring up several examples of it. However, what puzzles me is the odd position of his left arm and hand which seem to me to be anatomically impossible. It looks as if his fingers are stopping the back of the neck. Even if he was tuning it it couldn't be like that. What do the rest of you think. Am I missing somthing crucial? As ever Monica -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- The Smokehouse, 6 Whitwell Road, Norwich, NR1 4HB England. Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899 Website: http://www.vanedwards.co.uk
[LUTE] Re: Les charmes de la vie - Watteau
I still don't get it! Neither picture seems to make sense to me even when put side to side. In the Lute player the back view of the instrument is shown but the peg box is skewed to the front. The peg box is curved and the pegs inserted laterally. In the Theorbo player the back view of the instrument is shown and the lower peg box is in line with the neck but the upper peg box is skewed to the front. With your left arm stretched out it is almost impossible to get your hand into the position shown. And where is his right arm. Normally you would be plucking the string to hear if it were in tune. Monica > On 17 July 2020 at 12:12 David Van Edwards wrote: > > > Dear Monica, > > There's another related Watteau painting in the Wallace collection > (Pour nous prouver que cette belle) showing the same hand in much > more detail. Different instrument so the pegbox is a bit narrower and > that maybe makes the hand more possible. But the brushwork here shows > that Watteau clearly enjoyed the extreme muscularity and effort of > the fingers which is such a contrast to the languid feeling of the > rest of the painting. These fingers are in many ways the focal point > of the painting and the difficulty is the message. > > I think the other commenters are right, it is the two middle fingers > holding up the pegbox while the first finger and thumb turn the peg. > The little finger meanwhile is curled up with the effort. > > You can see it here thanks to the ArtUK collection. > > https://artuk.org/discover/artworks/pour-nous-prouver-que-cette-belle-209396/view_as/grid/search/keyword:pour-nous-prouver-que-cette-belle/page/1# > > Best wishes, > > David > > At 10:50 +0100 17/7/20, Monica Hall wrote: > >"Les charmes de la vie" is a well-known painting by Watteau in the > >Wallace Collection. You just need to put in the title "Les charmes > >de la vie" to bring up several examples of it. > > > >However, what puzzles me is the odd position of his left arm and > >hand which seem to me to be anatomically impossible. It looks as if > >his fingers are stopping the back of the neck. Even if he was tuning > >it it couldn't be like that. What do the rest of you think. Am I > >missing somthing crucial? > > > >As ever > > > >Monica > >-- > > > >To get on or off this list see list information at > >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > -- > The Smokehouse, > 6 Whitwell Road, > Norwich, NR1 4HB > England. > > Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899 > Website: http://www.vanedwards.co.uk > >
[LUTE] Re: Les charmes de la vie - Watteau
Am Freitag, 17. Juli 2020 18:32 CEST, Monica Hall schrieb: > I still don't get it! > > Neither picture seems to make sense to me even when put side to side. In the > Lute player the back view of the instrument is shown but the peg box is > skewed to the front. The peg box is curved and the pegs inserted laterally. To me the "lute" almost looks like some kind of mandora/gallichon and the perspective (esp. of the pegbox) looks dlightly distorted. > In the Theorbo player the back view of the instrument is shown and the lower > peg box is in line with the neck but the upper peg box is skewed to the front. That skewedness I can't see. > With your left arm stretched out it is almost impossible to get your hand > into the position shown. As a (former) theorbo player I don't agree. That's exactly how I would do it, esp. if I need to tune up while slightly pushing the peg into the peg hole. > And where is his right arm. Normally you would be plucking the string to > hear if it were in tune. Looks like he's pluging the string over the rose or even higher up the string where the neck meets the body. Not unseen once the instrument reaches a certain size. Cheers RalfD > Monica > > > On 17 July 2020 at 12:12 David Van Edwards wrote: > > > > > > Dear Monica, > > > > There's another related Watteau painting in the Wallace collection > > (Pour nous prouver que cette belle) showing the same hand in much > > more detail. Different instrument so the pegbox is a bit narrower and > > that maybe makes the hand more possible. But the brushwork here shows > > that Watteau clearly enjoyed the extreme muscularity and effort of > > the fingers which is such a contrast to the languid feeling of the > > rest of the painting. These fingers are in many ways the focal point > > of the painting and the difficulty is the message. > > > > I think the other commenters are right, it is the two middle fingers > > holding up the pegbox while the first finger and thumb turn the peg. > > The little finger meanwhile is curled up with the effort. > > > > You can see it here thanks to the ArtUK collection. > > > > https://artuk.org/discover/artworks/pour-nous-prouver-que-cette-belle-209396/view_as/grid/search/keyword:pour-nous-prouver-que-cette-belle/page/1# > > > > Best wishes, > > > > David > > > > At 10:50 +0100 17/7/20, Monica Hall wrote: > > >"Les charmes de la vie" is a well-known painting by Watteau in the > > >Wallace Collection. You just need to put in the title "Les charmes > > >de la vie" to bring up several examples of it. > > > > > >However, what puzzles me is the odd position of his left arm and > > >hand which seem to me to be anatomically impossible. It looks as if > > >his fingers are stopping the back of the neck. Even if he was tuning > > >it it couldn't be like that. What do the rest of you think. Am I > > >missing somthing crucial? > > > > > >As ever > > > > > >Monica > > >-- > > > > > >To get on or off this list see list information at > > >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > > > -- > > The Smokehouse, > > 6 Whitwell Road, > > Norwich, NR1 4HB > > England. > > > > Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899 > > Website: http://www.vanedwards.co.uk > > > > > > -- Ralf Mattes Hochschule für Musik Freiburg Projektleitung HISinOne Schwarzwaldstr. 141, D-79102 Freiburg http://www.mh-freiburg.de
[LUTE] Re: Les charmes de la vie - Watteau
+++ Normally you would be plucking the string to hear if it were in tune. But the way his hand is positioned, it is conceivable that he could pluck the string with the thumb to check if it was in tune, as well as use the same thumb and index to tighten the peg no? G. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Les charmes de la vie - Watteau
PS. The other hidden arm is holding the instrument, stabilizing it. On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 6:06 PM G. C. <[1]kalei...@gmail.com> wrote: +++ Normally you would be plucking the string to hear if it were in tune. But the way his hand is positioned, it is conceivable that he could pluck the string with the thumb to check if it was in tune, as well as use the same thumb and index to tighten the peg no? G. -- To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:kalei...@gmail.com 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Les charmes de la vie - Watteau
Dear Monica, There are two separate issues here, the lute and pegbox itself are rather odd and dubious and I suspect Watteau didn't really care. The position of the hand is a separate matter and it seems entirely possible to me. To demonstrate, I've just taken a photo posed in the same way as much as possible in the short time you have with a self timer! http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/Watteaupose.htm It was extra awkward because the half-completed student lute had no pegs so I've held one with thumb and first finger. Had there been a peg it would have been possible to turn it! Best wishes, David At 17:32 +0100 17/7/20, Monica Hall wrote: I still don't get it! Neither picture seems to make sense to me even when put side to side. In the Lute player the back view of the instrument is shown but the peg box is skewed to the front. The peg box is curved and the pegs inserted laterally. In the Theorbo player the back view of the instrument is shown and the lower peg box is in line with the neck but the upper peg box is skewed to the front. With your left arm stretched out it is almost impossible to get your hand into the position shown. And where is his right arm. Normally you would be plucking the string to hear if it were in tune. Monica On 17 July 2020 at 12:12 David Van Edwards wrote: Dear Monica, There's another related Watteau painting in the Wallace collection (Pour nous prouver que cette belle) showing the same hand in much more detail. Different instrument so the pegbox is a bit narrower and that maybe makes the hand more possible. But the brushwork here shows that Watteau clearly enjoyed the extreme muscularity and effort of the fingers which is such a contrast to the languid feeling of the rest of the painting. These fingers are in many ways the focal point of the painting and the difficulty is the message. I think the other commenters are right, it is the two middle fingers holding up the pegbox while the first finger and thumb turn the peg. The little finger meanwhile is curled up with the effort. You can see it here thanks to the ArtUK collection. > https://artuk.org/discover/artworks/pour-nous-prouver-que-cette-belle-209396/view_as/grid/search/keyword:pour-nous-prouver-que-cette-belle/page/1# Best wishes, David At 10:50 +0100 17/7/20, Monica Hall wrote: >"Les charmes de la vie" is a well-known painting by Watteau in the >Wallace Collection. You just need to put in the title "Les charmes >de la vie" to bring up several examples of it. > >However, what puzzles me is the odd position of his left arm and >hand which seem to me to be anatomically impossible. It looks as if >his fingers are stopping the back of the neck. Even if he was tuning >it it couldn't be like that. What do the rest of you think. Am I >missing somthing crucial? > >As ever > >Monica >-- > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- The Smokehouse, 6 Whitwell Road, Norwich, NR1 4HB England. Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899 > Website: http://www.vanedwards.co.uk -- The Smokehouse, 6 Whitwell Road, Norwich, NR1 4HB England. Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899 Website: http://www.vanedwards.co.uk
[LUTE] Re: Les charmes de la vie - Watteau
I wonder if we are looking at the same pictures. You can't see his right hand or the rose at all- only the back of the instrument. Robert Spencer in an article in Early Music April 1976 suggested that it was a Chitarrone francese for which he had two manuscripts of music. Was the gallichon in use in France in the 18th century? I think both instruments and the players are very badly drawn. Monica > On 17 July 2020 at 17:45 Ralf Mattes wrote: > > > > Am Freitag, 17. Juli 2020 18:32 CEST, Monica Hall > schrieb: > > > I still don't get it! > > > > Neither picture seems to make sense to me even when put side to side. In > > the Lute player the back view of the instrument is shown but the peg box is > > skewed to the front. The peg box is curved and the pegs inserted laterally. > > To me the "lute" almost looks like some kind of mandora/gallichon and the > perspective (esp. of the pegbox) looks > dlightly distorted. > > > > In the Theorbo player the back view of the instrument is shown and the > > lower peg box is in line with the neck but the upper peg box is skewed to > > the front. > > That skewedness I can't see. > > > With your left arm stretched out it is almost impossible to get your hand > > into the position shown. > > As a (former) theorbo player I don't agree. That's exactly how I would do it, > esp. if I need to tune up while slightly pushing the peg > into the peg hole. > > > And where is his right arm. Normally you would be plucking the string to > > hear if it were in tune. > > Looks like he's pluging the string over the rose or even higher up the string > where the neck meets the body. Not unseen once > the instrument reaches a certain size. > > Cheers RalfD > > Monica > > > > > On 17 July 2020 at 12:12 David Van Edwards wrote: > > > > > > > > > Dear Monica, > > > > > > There's another related Watteau painting in the Wallace collection > > > (Pour nous prouver que cette belle) showing the same hand in much > > > more detail. Different instrument so the pegbox is a bit narrower and > > > that maybe makes the hand more possible. But the brushwork here shows > > > that Watteau clearly enjoyed the extreme muscularity and effort of > > > the fingers which is such a contrast to the languid feeling of the > > > rest of the painting. These fingers are in many ways the focal point > > > of the painting and the difficulty is the message. > > > > > > I think the other commenters are right, it is the two middle fingers > > > holding up the pegbox while the first finger and thumb turn the peg. > > > The little finger meanwhile is curled up with the effort. > > > > > > You can see it here thanks to the ArtUK collection. > > > > > > https://artuk.org/discover/artworks/pour-nous-prouver-que-cette-belle-209396/view_as/grid/search/keyword:pour-nous-prouver-que-cette-belle/page/1# > > > > > > Best wishes, > > > > > > David > > > > > > At 10:50 +0100 17/7/20, Monica Hall wrote: > > > >"Les charmes de la vie" is a well-known painting by Watteau in the > > > >Wallace Collection. You just need to put in the title "Les charmes > > > >de la vie" to bring up several examples of it. > > > > > > > >However, what puzzles me is the odd position of his left arm and > > > >hand which seem to me to be anatomically impossible. It looks as if > > > >his fingers are stopping the back of the neck. Even if he was tuning > > > >it it couldn't be like that. What do the rest of you think. Am I > > > >missing somthing crucial? > > > > > > > >As ever > > > > > > > >Monica > > > >-- > > > > > > > >To get on or off this list see list information at > > > >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > > > > > > -- > > > The Smokehouse, > > > 6 Whitwell Road, > > > Norwich, NR1 4HB > > > England. > > > > > > Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899 > > > Website: http://www.vanedwards.co.uk > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Ralf Mattes > > Hochschule für Musik Freiburg > Projektleitung HISinOne > Schwarzwaldstr. 141, D-79102 Freiburg > http://www.mh-freiburg.de > > >
[LUTE] Re: Les charmes de la vie - Watteau
Dear David Thank you for the photo. It does make it much clearer what the player is doing. I tried to take a photo of myself with my guitar - but it didn't work as it is a different shape and the pegs go through the back of the head. I think Watteau must have been more interested in reproducing the striking posture of the player rather than the instrument. This may often be the case with paintings which aren't always a reliable source of information. Best wishes Monica > On 17 July 2020 at 19:20 David Van Edwards wrote: > > > Dear Monica, > > There are two separate issues here, the lute and pegbox itself are > rather odd and dubious and I suspect Watteau didn't really care. > > The position of the hand is a separate matter and it seems entirely > possible to me. To demonstrate, I've just taken a photo posed in the > same way as much as possible in the short time you have with a self > timer! > > http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/Watteaupose.htm > > It was extra awkward because the half-completed student lute had no > pegs so I've held one with thumb and first finger. Had there been a > peg it would have been possible to turn it! > > Best wishes, > > David > > > At 17:32 +0100 17/7/20, Monica Hall wrote: > >I still don't get it! > > > >Neither picture seems to make sense to me even when put side to > >side. In the Lute player the back view of the instrument is shown > >but the peg box is skewed to the front. The peg box is curved and > >the pegs inserted laterally. > > > >In the Theorbo player the back view of the instrument is shown and > >the lower peg box is in line with the neck but the upper peg box is > >skewed to the front. > > > >With your left arm stretched out it is almost impossible to get your > >hand into the position shown. And where is his right arm. Normally > >you would be plucking the string to hear if it were in tune. > >Monica > > > >> On 17 July 2020 at 12:12 David Van Edwards wrote: > >> > >> > >> Dear Monica, > >> > >> There's another related Watteau painting in the Wallace collection > >> (Pour nous prouver que cette belle) showing the same hand in much > >> more detail. Different instrument so the pegbox is a bit narrower and > >> that maybe makes the hand more possible. But the brushwork here shows > >> that Watteau clearly enjoyed the extreme muscularity and effort of > >> the fingers which is such a contrast to the languid feeling of the > >> rest of the painting. These fingers are in many ways the focal point > >> of the painting and the difficulty is the message. > >> > >> I think the other commenters are right, it is the two middle fingers > >> holding up the pegbox while the first finger and thumb turn the peg. > >> The little finger meanwhile is curled up with the effort. > >> > >> You can see it here thanks to the ArtUK collection. > >> > > > > >https://artuk.org/discover/artworks/pour-nous-prouver-que-cette-belle-209396/view_as/grid/search/keyword:pour-nous-prouver-que-cette-belle/page/1# > >> > >> Best wishes, > >> > >> David > >> > >> At 10:50 +0100 17/7/20, Monica Hall wrote: > >> >"Les charmes de la vie" is a well-known painting by Watteau in the > >> >Wallace Collection. You just need to put in the title "Les charmes > >> >de la vie" to bring up several examples of it. > >> > > >> >However, what puzzles me is the odd position of his left arm and > >> >hand which seem to me to be anatomically impossible. It looks as if > >> >his fingers are stopping the back of the neck. Even if he was tuning > >> >it it couldn't be like that. What do the rest of you think. Am I > >> >missing somthing crucial? > >> > > >> >As ever > >> > > >> >Monica > >> >-- > >> > > >> >To get on or off this list see list information at > >> >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >> > >> > >> -- > >> The Smokehouse, > >> 6 Whitwell Road, > >> Norwich, NR1 4HB > >> England. > >> > >> Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899 > > > Website: http://www.vanedwards.co.uk > >> > >> > > > -- > The Smokehouse, > 6 Whitwell Road, > Norwich, NR1 4HB > England. > > Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899 > Website: http://www.vanedwards.co.uk > >
[LUTE] Re: Les charmes de la vie - Watteau
Dear Monica, I'm sure you're right, Watteau's interest was the pose not the instrument. Indeed the same pose was adapted several times about 25 years later [but seen from the front] by Nicolas Lancret, an admirer of Watteau. http://www2.culture.gouv.fr/Wave/image/joconde/0002/m503604_88ee1503_p.jpg But the Lancret omits those straining fingers to produce a much more anodyne effect. Best wishes, David At 07:35 +0100 18/7/20, Monica Hall wrote: Dear David Thank you for the photo. It does make it much clearer what the player is doing. I tried to take a photo of myself with my guitar - but it didn't work as it is a different shape and the pegs go through the back of the head. I think Watteau must have been more interested in reproducing the striking posture of the player rather than the instrument. This may often be the case with paintings which aren't always a reliable source of information. Best wishes Monica On 17 July 2020 at 19:20 David Van Edwards wrote: Dear Monica, There are two separate issues here, the lute and pegbox itself are rather odd and dubious and I suspect Watteau didn't really care. The position of the hand is a separate matter and it seems entirely possible to me. To demonstrate, I've just taken a photo posed in the same way as much as possible in the short time you have with a self timer! > http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/Watteaupose.htm It was extra awkward because the half-completed student lute had no pegs so I've held one with thumb and first finger. Had there been a peg it would have been possible to turn it! Best wishes, David At 17:32 +0100 17/7/20, Monica Hall wrote: >I still don't get it! > >Neither picture seems to make sense to me even when put side to >side. In the Lute player the back view of the instrument is shown >but the peg box is skewed to the front. The peg box is curved and >the pegs inserted laterally. > >In the Theorbo player the back view of the instrument is shown and >the lower peg box is in line with the neck but the upper peg box is >skewed to the front. > >With your left arm stretched out it is almost impossible to get your >hand into the position shown. And where is his right arm. Normally >you would be plucking the string to hear if it were in tune. >Monica > >> On 17 July 2020 at 12:12 David Van Edwards wrote: >> >> >> Dear Monica, >> >> There's another related Watteau painting in the Wallace collection >> (Pour nous prouver que cette belle) showing the same hand in much >> more detail. Different instrument so the pegbox is a bit narrower and >> that maybe makes the hand more possible. But the brushwork here shows >> that Watteau clearly enjoyed the extreme muscularity and effort of >> the fingers which is such a contrast to the languid feeling of the >> rest of the painting. These fingers are in many ways the focal point >> of the painting and the difficulty is the message. >> >> I think the other commenters are right, it is the two middle fingers >> holding up the pegbox while the first finger and thumb turn the peg. >> The little finger meanwhile is curled up with the effort. >> >> You can see it here thanks to the ArtUK collection. >> > > > >https://artuk.org/discover/artworks/pour-nous-prouver-que-cette-belle-209396/view_as/grid/search/keyword:pour-nous-prouver-que-cette-belle/page/1# >> >> Best wishes, >> >> David >> >> At 10:50 +0100 17/7/20, Monica Hall wrote: >> >"Les charmes de la vie" is a well-known painting by Watteau in the >> >Wallace Collection. You just need to put in the title "Les charmes >> >de la vie" to bring up several examples of it. >> > >> >However, what puzzles me is the odd position of his left arm and >> >hand which seem to me to be anatomically impossible. It looks as if > >> >his fingers are stopping the back of the neck. Even if he was tuning >> >it it couldn't be like that. What do the rest of you think. Am I >> >missing somthing crucial? >> > >> >As ever >> > >> >Monica >> >-- >> > >> >To get on or off this list see list information at >> >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> >> >> -- >> The Smokehouse, >> 6 Whitwell Road, >> Norwich, NR1 4HB >> England. >> >> Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899 > > Website: http://www.vanedwards.co.uk >> >> -- The Smokehouse, 6 Whitwell Road, Norwich, NR1 4HB England. Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899 Website: http://www.vanedwards.co.uk -- The Smokehouse, 6 Whitwell Road, Norwich, NR1 4HB England. Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899 Website: http://www.vanedwards.co.uk
[LUTE] Re: Les charmes de la vie - Watteau
Dear David Thank you for this. Seen from in front it is clearer what is happening. Best wishes Monica > On 18 July 2020 at 11:47 David Van Edwards wrote: > > > Dear Monica, > > I'm sure you're right, Watteau's interest was the pose not the instrument. > > Indeed the same pose was adapted several times about 25 years later > [but seen from the front] by Nicolas Lancret, an admirer of Watteau. > > http://www2.culture.gouv.fr/Wave/image/joconde/0002/m503604_88ee1503_p.jpg > > But the Lancret omits those straining fingers to produce a much more > anodyne effect. > > Best wishes, > > David > > > > At 07:35 +0100 18/7/20, Monica Hall wrote: > >Dear David > >Thank you for the photo. It does make it much clearer what the > >player is doing. I tried to take a photo of myself with my guitar - > >but it didn't work as it is a different shape and the pegs go > >through the back of the head. > >I think Watteau must have been more interested in reproducing the > >striking posture of the player rather than the instrument. This may > >often be the case with paintings which aren't always a reliable > >source of information. > >Best wishes > >Monica > > > > > > > >> On 17 July 2020 at 19:20 David Van Edwards wrote: > >> > >> > >> Dear Monica, > >> > >> There are two separate issues here, the lute and pegbox itself are > >> rather odd and dubious and I suspect Watteau didn't really care. > >> > >> The position of the hand is a separate matter and it seems entirely > >> possible to me. To demonstrate, I've just taken a photo posed in the > >> same way as much as possible in the short time you have with a self > >> timer! > >> > > > http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/Watteaupose.htm > >> > >> It was extra awkward because the half-completed student lute had no > >> pegs so I've held one with thumb and first finger. Had there been a > >> peg it would have been possible to turn it! > >> > >> Best wishes, > >> > >> David > >> > >> > >> At 17:32 +0100 17/7/20, Monica Hall wrote: > >> >I still don't get it! > >> > > >> >Neither picture seems to make sense to me even when put side to > >> >side. In the Lute player the back view of the instrument is shown > >> >but the peg box is skewed to the front. The peg box is curved and > >> >the pegs inserted laterally. > >> > > >> >In the Theorbo player the back view of the instrument is shown and > >> >the lower peg box is in line with the neck but the upper peg box is > >> >skewed to the front. > >> > > >> >With your left arm stretched out it is almost impossible to get your > >> >hand into the position shown. And where is his right arm. Normally > >> >you would be plucking the string to hear if it were in tune. > >> >Monica > >> > > >> >> On 17 July 2020 at 12:12 David Van Edwards > >> wrote: > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Dear Monica, > >> >> > >> >> There's another related Watteau painting in the Wallace collection > >> >> (Pour nous prouver que cette belle) showing the same hand in much > >> >> more detail. Different instrument so the pegbox is a bit narrower and > >> >> that maybe makes the hand more possible. But the brushwork here shows > >> >> that Watteau clearly enjoyed the extreme muscularity and effort of > >> >> the fingers which is such a contrast to the languid feeling of the > >> >> rest of the painting. These fingers are in many ways the focal point > >> >> of the painting and the difficulty is the message. > >> >> > >> >> I think the other commenters are right, it is the two middle fingers > >> >> holding up the pegbox while the first finger and thumb turn the peg. > >> >> The little finger meanwhile is curled up with the effort. > >> >> > >> >> You can see it here thanks to the ArtUK collection. > >> >> > >> > > > > > > > >https://artuk.org/discover/artworks/pour-nous-prouver-que-cette-belle-209396/view_as/grid/search/keyword:pour-nous-prouver-que-cette-belle/page/1# > >> >> > >> >> Best wishes, > >> >> > >> >> David > >> >> > >> >> At 10:50 +0100 17/7/20, Monica Hall wrote: > >> >> >"Les charmes de la vie" is a well-known painting by Watteau in the > >> >> >Wallace Collection. You just need to put in the title "Les charmes > >> >> >de la vie" to bring up several examples of it. > >> >> > > >> >> >However, what puzzles me is the odd position of his left arm and > >> >> >hand which seem to me to be anatomically impossible. It looks as if > > > >> >his fingers are stopping the back of the neck. Even if he was tuning > >> >> >it it couldn't be like that. What do the rest of you think. Am I > >> >> >missing somthing crucial? > >> >> > > >> >> >As ever > >> >> > > >> >> >Monica > >> >> >-- > >> >> > > >> >> >To get on or off this list see list information at > >> >> >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> -- > >> >> The Smokehouse, > >> >> 6 Whitwell Road, > >> >> Norwich, NR1 4HB > >> >> England. > >>
[LUTE] Re: Les charmes de la vie - Watteau
This is just to say that some of my messages seem to be delayed. One which I sent yesterday has just appeared. Thank you for the link to the Lancret. Monica > On 18 July 2020 at 11:47 David Van Edwards wrote: > > > Dear Monica, > > I'm sure you're right, Watteau's interest was the pose not the instrument. > > Indeed the same pose was adapted several times about 25 years later > [but seen from the front] by Nicolas Lancret, an admirer of Watteau. > > http://www2.culture.gouv.fr/Wave/image/joconde/0002/m503604_88ee1503_p.jpg > > But the Lancret omits those straining fingers to produce a much more > anodyne effect. > > Best wishes, > > David > > > > At 07:35 +0100 18/7/20, Monica Hall wrote: > >Dear David > >Thank you for the photo. It does make it much clearer what the > >player is doing. I tried to take a photo of myself with my guitar - > >but it didn't work as it is a different shape and the pegs go > >through the back of the head. > >I think Watteau must have been more interested in reproducing the > >striking posture of the player rather than the instrument. This may > >often be the case with paintings which aren't always a reliable > >source of information. > >Best wishes > >Monica > > > > > > > >> On 17 July 2020 at 19:20 David Van Edwards wrote: > >> > >> > >> Dear Monica, > >> > >> There are two separate issues here, the lute and pegbox itself are > >> rather odd and dubious and I suspect Watteau didn't really care. > >> > >> The position of the hand is a separate matter and it seems entirely > >> possible to me. To demonstrate, I've just taken a photo posed in the > >> same way as much as possible in the short time you have with a self > >> timer! > >> > > > http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/Watteaupose.htm > >> > >> It was extra awkward because the half-completed student lute had no > >> pegs so I've held one with thumb and first finger. Had there been a > >> peg it would have been possible to turn it! > >> > >> Best wishes, > >> > >> David > >> > >> > >> At 17:32 +0100 17/7/20, Monica Hall wrote: > >> >I still don't get it! > >> > > >> >Neither picture seems to make sense to me even when put side to > >> >side. In the Lute player the back view of the instrument is shown > >> >but the peg box is skewed to the front. The peg box is curved and > >> >the pegs inserted laterally. > >> > > >> >In the Theorbo player the back view of the instrument is shown and > >> >the lower peg box is in line with the neck but the upper peg box is > >> >skewed to the front. > >> > > >> >With your left arm stretched out it is almost impossible to get your > >> >hand into the position shown. And where is his right arm. Normally > >> >you would be plucking the string to hear if it were in tune. > >> >Monica > >> > > >> >> On 17 July 2020 at 12:12 David Van Edwards > >> wrote: > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Dear Monica, > >> >> > >> >> There's another related Watteau painting in the Wallace collection > >> >> (Pour nous prouver que cette belle) showing the same hand in much > >> >> more detail. Different instrument so the pegbox is a bit narrower and > >> >> that maybe makes the hand more possible. But the brushwork here shows > >> >> that Watteau clearly enjoyed the extreme muscularity and effort of > >> >> the fingers which is such a contrast to the languid feeling of the > >> >> rest of the painting. These fingers are in many ways the focal point > >> >> of the painting and the difficulty is the message. > >> >> > >> >> I think the other commenters are right, it is the two middle fingers > >> >> holding up the pegbox while the first finger and thumb turn the peg. > >> >> The little finger meanwhile is curled up with the effort. > >> >> > >> >> You can see it here thanks to the ArtUK collection. > >> >> > >> > > > > > > > >https://artuk.org/discover/artworks/pour-nous-prouver-que-cette-belle-209396/view_as/grid/search/keyword:pour-nous-prouver-que-cette-belle/page/1# > >> >> > >> >> Best wishes, > >> >> > >> >> David > >> >> > >> >> At 10:50 +0100 17/7/20, Monica Hall wrote: > >> >> >"Les charmes de la vie" is a well-known painting by Watteau in the > >> >> >Wallace Collection. You just need to put in the title "Les charmes > >> >> >de la vie" to bring up several examples of it. > >> >> > > >> >> >However, what puzzles me is the odd position of his left arm and > >> >> >hand which seem to me to be anatomically impossible. It looks as if > > > >> >his fingers are stopping the back of the neck. Even if he was tuning > >> >> >it it couldn't be like that. What do the rest of you think. Am I > >> >> >missing somthing crucial? > >> >> > > >> >> >As ever > >> >> > > >> >> >Monica > >> >> >-- > >> >> > > >> >> >To get on or off this list see list information at > >> >> >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> -- > >> >> The Smokehouse, > >> >> 6 Whitwell Road
