[LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA
Thank you so much Rainer. Best, Antonio On Friday, 10 January 2020, 10:19:16 GMT-6, Rainer wrote: For a better digital version see: http://data.onb.ac.at/rec/AC09162120 Rainer Am 10.01.2020 um 14:11 schrieb Stewart McCoy: > Dear Antonio, > > I have been searching my house high and low for my photocopy of Barberiis' > _Libro Decimo_. It must be here somewhere, but I just can't find it. However, > help is at hand at Sarge Gerbode's lute site. If you search there under > "facsimiles", you will find a copy of Barberiis' book: > http://www.gerbode.net/facsimiles/Barberiis_intabolatura_di_lauto_v10_1549/hh1v.png > . The type face for the guitar music looks to me the same as for the lute > music. It is interesting that the top line is marked "canto", presumably to > clarify that this line represents the first course (highest in pitch), unlike > all the lute music earlier in the book. By the way, although each of the > guitar pieces has the title "Fantasia", they are really more modest in > character. I would be very interested to know what the music is. > > There is a facsimile copy of Salinas' book at the IMSLP site. Please could > you tell me which page he gives the tenor of Conde Claros. (I find the Latin > heavy going.) Where possible I would like to link Spanish romances such as > Conde Claros to simple melodies, to be able to create a more folky > performance (unaccompanied, or with simple chords strummed on the guitar) > than the sophisticated arrangements for voice and vihuela which survive in > the vihuela books. > > Best wishes, > > Stewart. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA
Dear Stewart You can find the reference and the music in page 597. Best wishes, Antonio On Friday, 10 January 2020, 07:16:36 GMT-6, Stewart McCoy wrote: Dear Antonio, I have been searching my house high and low for my photocopy of Barberiis' _Libro Decimo_. It must be here somewhere, but I just can't find it. However, help is at hand at Sarge Gerbode's lute site. If you search there under "facsimiles", you will find a copy of Barberiis' book: http://www.gerbode.net/facsimiles/Barberiis_intabolatura_di_lauto_v10_1549/hh1v.png . The type face for the guitar music looks to me the same as for the lute music. It is interesting that the top line is marked "canto", presumably to clarify that this line represents the first course (highest in pitch), unlike all the lute music earlier in the book. By the way, although each of the guitar pieces has the title "Fantasia", they are really more modest in character. I would be very interested to know what the music is. There is a facsimile copy of Salinas' book at the IMSLP site. Please could you tell me which page he gives the tenor of Conde Claros. (I find the Latin heavy going.) Where possible I would like to link Spanish romances such as Conde Claros to simple melodies, to be able to create a more folky performance (unaccompanied, or with simple chords strummed on the guitar) than the sophisticated arrangements for voice and vihuela which survive in the vihuela books. Best wishes, Stewart. -Original Message- From: Antonio Corona Sent: Friday, January 10, 2020 10:58 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA Dear Stewart What a pleasant surprise! I'm ever so glad to hear from you. Thank you very much for the information - I stand corrected, and happy to do so, Is it in the same type as the lute music? Sounds very intriguing. Best wishes, Antonio On Friday, 10 January 2020, 04:38:13 GMT-6, Stewart McCoy wrote: Dear Antonio, A pleasure to make contact with you via this thread. Strictly speaking there is another example of Milan's tablature, albeit for guitar, in Melchiore de Barberiis, _Libro Decimo_ (Venice: Hieronymus Scotum, 1549). Most of the book contains music for the lute in Italian lute tablature, but at the end of the book are four short pieces for the 4-course guitar. The tablature for the guitar music is the same as Luys Milan's. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. -Original Message- From: Antonio Corona Sent: Friday, January 10, 2020 2:35 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA Dear G. C. As I stated before, it would be foolish to deny that Milán was influenced by Italian culture; what I do not find is evidence of any possible influence by the Italian lutenists before him. I, for one, would welcome any information about it, but I'm still waiting to be enlightened. As far as I know, with the exception of Dalza's, pavans "alla venetiana" and "alla ferrarese" which are quite different from Milan's, there is no Italian lute source of pavans before 1536 (Attaingnant does have some, but so far nobody here has proposed a French influence). An interesting point would be that, according to Milán, his pavans resemble those played in Italy (parecen en su ayre y compostura a las mesmas pauanas que en Ytalia se tañen). Valid questions would then be: what were his sources? Manuscripts? Did he listen to them? I have to admit this is a big lacuna in our knowledge of the matter, but so far we do not have any satisfactory answers: speculation may contribute to our peace of! mind, but not to our knowledge. Valencian tablature should be called, in fact, Milan's tablature: there are no other examples of it. To me this is another proof of Milán's unique condition (an interesting antecedent would be the Marineo Siculo fragment but that is, too, one of a kind). It could nevertheless be argued that Milán used rhytmic flags above each cipher, as can be found in Petrucci's previous publications (and unlike Casteliono in 1536 and later vihuelists), but that is all I can find in common. Since I am not Spanish, I feel I can hardly be found guilty of championing any issue of honour or ownership; I just try to judge from what available evidence can tell us and form my own criteria from it. I don't care where I step as long as there is a sound basis to justify where I place my feet. Best wishes Antonio P.S. What does "italianate music in a general sense" mean in the context of Milán´s pieces? On Thursday, 9 January 2020, 15:23:56 GMT-6, G. C. wrote: I meant to say: "An improvement to neapolitan tab" (Which was in Valencian hands at the time) (Also only one remaining ms. and de Milano at that!) It's fascinating to think of what influences were at work there.) G. On Thu, Jan 9, 2020 at 8:23 PM G. C. <[1]kalei...@gmail.com> wr
[LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA
For a better digital version see: http://data.onb.ac.at/rec/AC09162120 Rainer Am 10.01.2020 um 14:11 schrieb Stewart McCoy: Dear Antonio, I have been searching my house high and low for my photocopy of Barberiis' _Libro Decimo_. It must be here somewhere, but I just can't find it. However, help is at hand at Sarge Gerbode's lute site. If you search there under "facsimiles", you will find a copy of Barberiis' book: http://www.gerbode.net/facsimiles/Barberiis_intabolatura_di_lauto_v10_1549/hh1v.png . The type face for the guitar music looks to me the same as for the lute music. It is interesting that the top line is marked "canto", presumably to clarify that this line represents the first course (highest in pitch), unlike all the lute music earlier in the book. By the way, although each of the guitar pieces has the title "Fantasia", they are really more modest in character. I would be very interested to know what the music is. There is a facsimile copy of Salinas' book at the IMSLP site. Please could you tell me which page he gives the tenor of Conde Claros. (I find the Latin heavy going.) Where possible I would like to link Spanish romances such as Conde Claros to simple melodies, to be able to create a more folky performance (unaccompanied, or with simple chords strummed on the guitar) than the sophisticated arrangements for voice and vihuela which survive in the vihuela books. Best wishes, Stewart. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA
For Condes Claros, look also at these Guitar books: https://www.guitareclassiquedelcamp.com/partitions/facsimile.html The versions there are easier to play, they also work on Ukulele. Not really folksy, more like simpler versions of the complicated artistic variations from Valderrabano. On 10.01.20 16:26, Ron Andrico wrote: Dear Stewart: Not knowing exactly what you are aiming for, you can do no better than the Conde claros variations in the Marsh ms., p. 232, for a folksy character, although the character is decidedly English rather than Spanish. RA __ From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of Stewart McCoy Sent: Friday, January 10, 2020 1:11 PM To: Lute Net Subject: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA Dear Antonio, I have been searching my house high and low for my photocopy of Barberiis' _Libro Decimo_. It must be here somewhere, but I just can't find it. However, help is at hand at Sarge Gerbode's lute site. If you search there under "facsimiles", you will find a copy of Barberiis' book: [1]http://www.gerbode.net/facsimiles/Barberiis_intabolatura_di_lauto_v1 0_1549/hh1v.png . The type face for the guitar music looks to me the same as for the lute music. It is interesting that the top line is marked "canto", presumably to clarify that this line represents the first course (highest in pitch), unlike all the lute music earlier in the book. By the way, although each of the guitar pieces has the title "Fantasia", they are really more modest in character. I would be very interested to know what the music is. There is a facsimile copy of Salinas' book at the IMSLP site. Please could you tell me which page he gives the tenor of Conde Claros. (I find the Latin heavy going.) Where possible I would like to link Spanish romances such as Conde Claros to simple melodies, to be able to create a more folky performance (unaccompanied, or with simple chords strummed on the guitar) than the sophisticated arrangements for voice and vihuela which survive in the vihuela books. Best wishes, Stewart. -Original Message- From: Antonio Corona Sent: Friday, January 10, 2020 10:58 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA Dear Stewart What a pleasant surprise! I'm ever so glad to hear from you. Thank you very much for the information - I stand corrected, and happy to do so, Is it in the same type as the lute music? Sounds very intriguing. Best wishes, Antonio On Friday, 10 January 2020, 04:38:13 GMT-6, Stewart McCoy wrote: Dear Antonio, A pleasure to make contact with you via this thread. Strictly speaking there is another example of Milan's tablature, albeit for guitar, in Melchiore de Barberiis, _Libro Decimo_ (Venice: Hieronymus Scotum, 1549). Most of the book contains music for the lute in Italian lute tablature, but at the end of the book are four short pieces for the 4-course guitar. The tablature for the guitar music is the same as Luys Milan's. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. -Original Message- From: Antonio Corona Sent: Friday, January 10, 2020 2:35 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA Dear G. C. As I stated before, it would be foolish to deny that Milán was influenced by Italian culture; what I do not find is evidence of any possible influence by the Italian lutenists before him. I, for one, would welcome any information about it, but I'm still waiting to be enlightened. As far as I know, with the exception of Dalza's, pavans "alla venetiana" and "alla ferrarese" which are quite different from Milan's, there is no Italian lute source of pavans before 1536 (Attaingnant does have some, but so far nobody here has proposed a French influence). An interesting point would be that, according to Milán, his pavans resemble those played in Italy (parecen en su ayre y compostura a las mesmas pauanas que en Ytalia se tañen). Valid questions would then be: what were his sources? Manuscripts? Did he listen to them? I have to admit this is a big lacuna in our knowledge of the matter, but so far we do not have any satisfactory answers: speculation may contribute to our peace of! mind, but not to our knowledge. Valencian tablature should be called, in fact, Milan's tablature: there are no other examples of it. To me this is another proof of Milán's unique condition (an interesting antecedent would be the Marineo Siculo fragm
[LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA
Dear Stewart: Not knowing exactly what you are aiming for, you can do no better than the Conde claros variations in the Marsh ms., p. 232, for a folksy character, although the character is decidedly English rather than Spanish. RA __ From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of Stewart McCoy Sent: Friday, January 10, 2020 1:11 PM To: Lute Net Subject: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA Dear Antonio, I have been searching my house high and low for my photocopy of Barberiis' _Libro Decimo_. It must be here somewhere, but I just can't find it. However, help is at hand at Sarge Gerbode's lute site. If you search there under "facsimiles", you will find a copy of Barberiis' book: [1]http://www.gerbode.net/facsimiles/Barberiis_intabolatura_di_lauto_v1 0_1549/hh1v.png . The type face for the guitar music looks to me the same as for the lute music. It is interesting that the top line is marked "canto", presumably to clarify that this line represents the first course (highest in pitch), unlike all the lute music earlier in the book. By the way, although each of the guitar pieces has the title "Fantasia", they are really more modest in character. I would be very interested to know what the music is. There is a facsimile copy of Salinas' book at the IMSLP site. Please could you tell me which page he gives the tenor of Conde Claros. (I find the Latin heavy going.) Where possible I would like to link Spanish romances such as Conde Claros to simple melodies, to be able to create a more folky performance (unaccompanied, or with simple chords strummed on the guitar) than the sophisticated arrangements for voice and vihuela which survive in the vihuela books. Best wishes, Stewart. -Original Message- From: Antonio Corona Sent: Friday, January 10, 2020 10:58 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA Dear Stewart What a pleasant surprise! I'm ever so glad to hear from you. Thank you very much for the information - I stand corrected, and happy to do so, Is it in the same type as the lute music? Sounds very intriguing. Best wishes, Antonio On Friday, 10 January 2020, 04:38:13 GMT-6, Stewart McCoy wrote: Dear Antonio, A pleasure to make contact with you via this thread. Strictly speaking there is another example of Milan's tablature, albeit for guitar, in Melchiore de Barberiis, _Libro Decimo_ (Venice: Hieronymus Scotum, 1549). Most of the book contains music for the lute in Italian lute tablature, but at the end of the book are four short pieces for the 4-course guitar. The tablature for the guitar music is the same as Luys Milan's. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. -Original Message- From: Antonio Corona Sent: Friday, January 10, 2020 2:35 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA Dear G. C. As I stated before, it would be foolish to deny that Milán was influenced by Italian culture; what I do not find is evidence of any possible influence by the Italian lutenists before him. I, for one, would welcome any information about it, but I'm still waiting to be enlightened. As far as I know, with the exception of Dalza's, pavans "alla venetiana" and "alla ferrarese" which are quite different from Milan's, there is no Italian lute source of pavans before 1536 (Attaingnant does have some, but so far nobody here has proposed a French influence). An interesting point would be that, according to Milán, his pavans resemble those played in Italy (parecen en su ayre y compostura a las mesmas pauanas que en Ytalia se tañen). Valid questions would then be: what were his sources? Manuscripts? Did he listen to them? I have to admit this is a big lacuna in our knowledge of the matter, but so far we do not have any satisfactory answers: speculation may contribute to our peace of! mind, but not to our knowledge. Valencian tablature should be called, in fact, Milan's tablature: there are no other examples of it. To me this is another proof of Milán's unique condition (an interesting antecedent would be the Marineo Siculo fragment but that is, too, one of a kind). It could nevertheless be argued that Milán used rhytmic flags above each cipher, as can be found in Petrucci's previous publications (and unlike Casteliono in 1536 and later vihuelists), but that is all I can find in common. Since I am not Spanish, I feel I can hardly be found guilty of championing any issue of honour or ownership; I just try to judge from what available eviden
[LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA
Dear Antonio, I have been searching my house high and low for my photocopy of Barberiis' _Libro Decimo_. It must be here somewhere, but I just can't find it. However, help is at hand at Sarge Gerbode's lute site. If you search there under "facsimiles", you will find a copy of Barberiis' book: http://www.gerbode.net/facsimiles/Barberiis_intabolatura_di_lauto_v10_1549/hh1v.png . The type face for the guitar music looks to me the same as for the lute music. It is interesting that the top line is marked "canto", presumably to clarify that this line represents the first course (highest in pitch), unlike all the lute music earlier in the book. By the way, although each of the guitar pieces has the title "Fantasia", they are really more modest in character. I would be very interested to know what the music is. There is a facsimile copy of Salinas' book at the IMSLP site. Please could you tell me which page he gives the tenor of Conde Claros. (I find the Latin heavy going.) Where possible I would like to link Spanish romances such as Conde Claros to simple melodies, to be able to create a more folky performance (unaccompanied, or with simple chords strummed on the guitar) than the sophisticated arrangements for voice and vihuela which survive in the vihuela books. Best wishes, Stewart. -Original Message- From: Antonio Corona Sent: Friday, January 10, 2020 10:58 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA Dear Stewart What a pleasant surprise! I'm ever so glad to hear from you. Thank you very much for the information - I stand corrected, and happy to do so, Is it in the same type as the lute music? Sounds very intriguing. Best wishes, Antonio On Friday, 10 January 2020, 04:38:13 GMT-6, Stewart McCoy wrote: Dear Antonio, A pleasure to make contact with you via this thread. Strictly speaking there is another example of Milan's tablature, albeit for guitar, in Melchiore de Barberiis, _Libro Decimo_ (Venice: Hieronymus Scotum, 1549). Most of the book contains music for the lute in Italian lute tablature, but at the end of the book are four short pieces for the 4-course guitar. The tablature for the guitar music is the same as Luys Milan's. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. -Original Message- From: Antonio Corona Sent: Friday, January 10, 2020 2:35 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA Dear G. C. As I stated before, it would be foolish to deny that Milán was influenced by Italian culture; what I do not find is evidence of any possible influence by the Italian lutenists before him. I, for one, would welcome any information about it, but I'm still waiting to be enlightened. As far as I know, with the exception of Dalza's, pavans "alla venetiana" and "alla ferrarese" which are quite different from Milan's, there is no Italian lute source of pavans before 1536 (Attaingnant does have some, but so far nobody here has proposed a French influence). An interesting point would be that, according to Milán, his pavans resemble those played in Italy (parecen en su ayre y compostura a las mesmas pauanas que en Ytalia se tañen). Valid questions would then be: what were his sources? Manuscripts? Did he listen to them? I have to admit this is a big lacuna in our knowledge of the matter, but so far we do not have any satisfactory answers: speculation may contribute to our peace of! mind, but not to our knowledge. Valencian tablature should be called, in fact, Milan's tablature: there are no other examples of it. To me this is another proof of Milán's unique condition (an interesting antecedent would be the Marineo Siculo fragment but that is, too, one of a kind). It could nevertheless be argued that Milán used rhytmic flags above each cipher, as can be found in Petrucci's previous publications (and unlike Casteliono in 1536 and later vihuelists), but that is all I can find in common. Since I am not Spanish, I feel I can hardly be found guilty of championing any issue of honour or ownership; I just try to judge from what available evidence can tell us and form my own criteria from it. I don't care where I step as long as there is a sound basis to justify where I place my feet. Best wishes Antonio P.S. What does "italianate music in a general sense" mean in the context of Milán´s pieces? On Thursday, 9 January 2020, 15:23:56 GMT-6, G. C. wrote: I meant to say: "An improvement to neapolitan tab" (Which was in Valencian hands at the time) (Also only one remaining ms. and de Milano at that!) It's fascinating to think of what influences were at work there.) G. On Thu, Jan 9, 2020 at 8:23 PM G. C. <[1]kalei...@gmail.com> wrote: Pavanas in italian style, songs in italian, italianate music in a general sense, etc. etc. I don't understand this tip-toeing
[LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA
https://www.mail-archive.com/lute@cs.dartmouth.edu/msg51564.html Rainer Am 10.01.2020 um 11:32 schrieb Stewart McCoy: Dear Antonio, A pleasure to make contact with you via this thread. Strictly speaking there is another example of Milan's tablature, albeit for guitar, in Melchiore de Barberiis, _Libro Decimo_ (Venice: Hieronymus Scotum, 1549). Most of the book contains music for the lute in Italian lute tablature, but at the end of the book are four short pieces for the 4-course guitar. The tablature for the guitar music is the same as Luys Milan's. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA
Dear Stewart What a pleasant surprise! I'm ever so glad to hear from you. Thank you very much for the information - I stand corrected, and happy to do so, Is it in the same type as the lute music? Sounds very intriguing. Best wishes, Antonio On Friday, 10 January 2020, 04:38:13 GMT-6, Stewart McCoy wrote: Dear Antonio, A pleasure to make contact with you via this thread. Strictly speaking there is another example of Milan's tablature, albeit for guitar, in Melchiore de Barberiis, _Libro Decimo_ (Venice: Hieronymus Scotum, 1549). Most of the book contains music for the lute in Italian lute tablature, but at the end of the book are four short pieces for the 4-course guitar. The tablature for the guitar music is the same as Luys Milan's. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. -Original Message- From: Antonio Corona Sent: Friday, January 10, 2020 2:35 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA Dear G. C. As I stated before, it would be foolish to deny that Milán was influenced by Italian culture; what I do not find is evidence of any possible influence by the Italian lutenists before him. I, for one, would welcome any information about it, but I'm still waiting to be enlightened. As far as I know, with the exception of Dalza's, pavans "alla venetiana" and "alla ferrarese" which are quite different from Milan's, there is no Italian lute source of pavans before 1536 (Attaingnant does have some, but so far nobody here has proposed a French influence). An interesting point would be that, according to Milán, his pavans resemble those played in Italy (parecen en su ayre y compostura a las mesmas pauanas que en Ytalia se tañen). Valid questions would then be: what were his sources? Manuscripts? Did he listen to them? I have to admit this is a big lacuna in our knowledge of the matter, but so far we do not have any satisfactory answers: speculation may contribute to our peace of! mind, but not to our knowledge. Valencian tablature should be called, in fact, Milan's tablature: there are no other examples of it. To me this is another proof of Milán's unique condition (an interesting antecedent would be the Marineo Siculo fragment but that is, too, one of a kind). It could nevertheless be argued that Milán used rhytmic flags above each cipher, as can be found in Petrucci's previous publications (and unlike Casteliono in 1536 and later vihuelists), but that is all I can find in common. Since I am not Spanish, I feel I can hardly be found guilty of championing any issue of honour or ownership; I just try to judge from what available evidence can tell us and form my own criteria from it. I don't care where I step as long as there is a sound basis to justify where I place my feet. Best wishes Antonio P.S. What does "italianate music in a general sense" mean in the context of Milán´s pieces? On Thursday, 9 January 2020, 15:23:56 GMT-6, G. C. wrote: I meant to say: "An improvement to neapolitan tab" (Which was in Valencian hands at the time) (Also only one remaining ms. and de Milano at that!) It's fascinating to think of what influences were at work there.) G. On Thu, Jan 9, 2020 at 8:23 PM G. C. <[1]kalei...@gmail.com> wrote: Pavanas in italian style, songs in italian, italianate music in a general sense, etc. etc. I don't understand this tip-toeing around the fact that Milan was heavily influenced by Italian art and (lutenist) culture, as many were around this time. And also his surname, which I cannot see has satisfyingly been explained yet. Not to speak about the fascinating Valencian tablature, an improvement (in my view) to italian tab which just didn't catch on. Are we afraid of steping on some misguided Spanish sense of honour and ownership for one of the early vihuelists here? Just intrigued G. -- To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:kalei...@gmail.com 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA
Dear Antonio, A pleasure to make contact with you via this thread. Strictly speaking there is another example of Milan's tablature, albeit for guitar, in Melchiore de Barberiis, _Libro Decimo_ (Venice: Hieronymus Scotum, 1549). Most of the book contains music for the lute in Italian lute tablature, but at the end of the book are four short pieces for the 4-course guitar. The tablature for the guitar music is the same as Luys Milan's. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. -Original Message- From: Antonio Corona Sent: Friday, January 10, 2020 2:35 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA Dear G. C. As I stated before, it would be foolish to deny that Milán was influenced by Italian culture; what I do not find is evidence of any possible influence by the Italian lutenists before him. I, for one, would welcome any information about it, but I'm still waiting to be enlightened. As far as I know, with the exception of Dalza's, pavans "alla venetiana" and "alla ferrarese" which are quite different from Milan's, there is no Italian lute source of pavans before 1536 (Attaingnant does have some, but so far nobody here has proposed a French influence). An interesting point would be that, according to Milán, his pavans resemble those played in Italy (parecen en su ayre y compostura a las mesmas pauanas que en Ytalia se tañen). Valid questions would then be: what were his sources? Manuscripts? Did he listen to them? I have to admit this is a big lacuna in our knowledge of the matter, but so far we do not have any satisfactory answers: speculation may contribute to our peace of! mind, but not to our knowledge. Valencian tablature should be called, in fact, Milan's tablature: there are no other examples of it. To me this is another proof of Milán's unique condition (an interesting antecedent would be the Marineo Siculo fragment but that is, too, one of a kind). It could nevertheless be argued that Milán used rhytmic flags above each cipher, as can be found in Petrucci's previous publications (and unlike Casteliono in 1536 and later vihuelists), but that is all I can find in common. Since I am not Spanish, I feel I can hardly be found guilty of championing any issue of honour or ownership; I just try to judge from what available evidence can tell us and form my own criteria from it. I don't care where I step as long as there is a sound basis to justify where I place my feet. Best wishes Antonio P.S. What does "italianate music in a general sense" mean in the context of Milán´s pieces? On Thursday, 9 January 2020, 15:23:56 GMT-6, G. C. wrote: I meant to say: "An improvement to neapolitan tab" (Which was in Valencian hands at the time) (Also only one remaining ms. and de Milano at that!) It's fascinating to think of what influences were at work there.) G. On Thu, Jan 9, 2020 at 8:23 PM G. C. <[1]kalei...@gmail.com> wrote: Pavanas in italian style, songs in italian, italianate music in a general sense, etc. etc. I don't understand this tip-toeing around the fact that Milan was heavily influenced by Italian art and (lutenist) culture, as many were around this time. And also his surname, which I cannot see has satisfyingly been explained yet. Not to speak about the fascinating Valencian tablature, an improvement (in my view) to italian tab which just didn't catch on. Are we afraid of steping on some misguided Spanish sense of honour and ownership for one of the early vihuelists here? Just intrigued G. -- To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:kalei...@gmail.com 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA
Another piece for the puzzle: how about Francesco playing diferencias upon the Conde Claros tenor? Francisco Salinas mentions this in his De Musica Libri Septem (1577). Here he illustrates the music of Conde Claros and states after "Super quem tenorem ego Romae modulantem audiui coram Paulo 3. Pont. Max. Franciscum Mediolanensem, qui fuit sui temporis Citharoedorum facilé princeps, & mihi valde familiaris". By the way, we do have proof that Narváez knew well Francesco's music. Best, Antonio On Friday, 10 January 2020, 03:39:25 GMT-6, G. C. wrote: That is the "crunch" isn't it. The two da Milano books (one in italian, one in neapolitan tablature, and the ONLY extant one) and El Maestro, appearing almost simultaneously, also here with a completely new and exclusive paradigm. None of which caught on mysteriously. After all they were printed books, which should have had some substantial circulation one would think. Someone should definitely look into this... G. PS. Naples was not in Aragonese hands in this epoch, and Milán could not very probably have visited/influenced/been influenced? Yo no sé... G. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA
That is the "crunch" isn't it. The two da Milano books (one in italian, one in neapolitan tablature, and the ONLY extant one) and El Maestro, appearing almost simultaneously, also here with a completely new and exclusive paradigm. None of which caught on mysteriously. After all they were printed books, which should have had some substantial circulation one would think. Someone should definitely look into this... G. PS. Naples was not in Aragonese hands in this epoch, and Milán could not very probably have visited/influenced/been influenced? Yo no sé... G. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA
> On Jan 9, 2020, at 6:51 PM, Antonio Corona > wrote: > > it would be very tempting to identify the viola they mentions as a vihuela. What else could it be? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA
Oops ... Sorry, only the Libro secondo is in Neapolitan tablature. My mistake. Best wishes Antonio P.S. According to Thurston Dart, the best advice a student could receive was "Verify your references". We are still learning. On Thursday, 9 January 2020, 15:23:56 GMT-6, G. C. wrote: I meant to say: "An improvement to neapolitan tab" (Which was in Valencian hands at the time) (Also only one remaining ms. and de Milano at that!) It's fascinating to think of what influences were at work there.) G. On Thu, Jan 9, 2020 at 8:23 PM G. C. <[1]kalei...@gmail.com> wrote: Pavanas in italian style, songs in italian, italianate music in a general sense, etc. etc. I don't understand this tip-toeing around the fact that Milan was heavily influenced by Italian art and (lutenist) culture, as many were around this time. And also his surname, which I cannot see has satisfyingly been explained yet. Not to speak about the fascinating Valencian tablature, an improvement (in my view) to italian tab which just didn't catch on. Are we afraid of steping on some misguided Spanish sense of honour and ownership for one of the early vihuelists here? Just intrigued G. -- To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:kalei...@gmail.com 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA
Sorry to say, Naples was not in Valencian hands (if that is what you mean) and neither was Neapolitan tablature. The sources by da Milano are not manuscript, but two printed books published in 1536, the same year as Casteliono and the issuing forth of El Maestro: the Intavolatura de viola o vero lauto ... Libro primo della fortuna and the Intavolatura de viola o vero lauto ... Libro secondo della fortuna. The titles are intriguing, and it would be very tempting to identify the viola they mentions as a vihuela. I would agree to this hypothesis. Best wishes Antonio On Thursday, 9 January 2020, 15:23:56 GMT-6, G. C. wrote: I meant to say: "An improvement to neapolitan tab" (Which was in Valencian hands at the time) (Also only one remaining ms. and de Milano at that!) It's fascinating to think of what influences were at work there.) G. On Thu, Jan 9, 2020 at 8:23 PM G. C. <[1]kalei...@gmail.com> wrote: Pavanas in italian style, songs in italian, italianate music in a general sense, etc. etc. I don't understand this tip-toeing around the fact that Milan was heavily influenced by Italian art and (lutenist) culture, as many were around this time. And also his surname, which I cannot see has satisfyingly been explained yet. Not to speak about the fascinating Valencian tablature, an improvement (in my view) to italian tab which just didn't catch on. Are we afraid of steping on some misguided Spanish sense of honour and ownership for one of the early vihuelists here? Just intrigued G. -- To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:kalei...@gmail.com 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA
Dear G. C. As I stated before, it would be foolish to deny that Milán was influenced by Italian culture; what I do not find is evidence of any possible influence by the Italian lutenists before him. I, for one, would welcome any information about it, but I'm still waiting to be enlightened. As far as I know, with the exception of Dalza's, pavans "alla venetiana" and "alla ferrarese" which are quite different from Milan's, there is no Italian lute source of pavans before 1536 (Attaingnant does have some, but so far nobody here has proposed a French influence). An interesting point would be that, according to Milán, his pavans resemble those played in Italy (parecen en su ayre y compostura a las mesmas pauanas que en Ytalia se tañen). Valid questions would then be: what were his sources? Manuscripts? Did he listen to them? I have to admit this is a big lacuna in our knowledge of the matter, but so far we do not have any satisfactory answers: speculation may contribute to our peace of! mind, but not to our knowledge. Valencian tablature should be called, in fact, Milan's tablature: there are no other examples of it. To me this is another proof of Milán's unique condition (an interesting antecedent would be the Marineo Siculo fragment but that is, too, one of a kind). It could nevertheless be argued that Milán used rhytmic flags above each cipher, as can be found in Petrucci's previous publications (and unlike Casteliono in 1536 and later vihuelists), but that is all I can find in common. Since I am not Spanish, I feel I can hardly be found guilty of championing any issue of honour or ownership; I just try to judge from what available evidence can tell us and form my own criteria from it. I don't care where I step as long as there is a sound basis to justify where I place my feet. Best wishes Antonio P.S. What does "italianate music in a general sense" mean in the context of Milán´s pieces? On Thursday, 9 January 2020, 15:23:56 GMT-6, G. C. wrote: I meant to say: "An improvement to neapolitan tab" (Which was in Valencian hands at the time) (Also only one remaining ms. and de Milano at that!) It's fascinating to think of what influences were at work there.) G. On Thu, Jan 9, 2020 at 8:23 PM G. C. <[1]kalei...@gmail.com> wrote: Pavanas in italian style, songs in italian, italianate music in a general sense, etc. etc. I don't understand this tip-toeing around the fact that Milan was heavily influenced by Italian art and (lutenist) culture, as many were around this time. And also his surname, which I cannot see has satisfyingly been explained yet. Not to speak about the fascinating Valencian tablature, an improvement (in my view) to italian tab which just didn't catch on. Are we afraid of steping on some misguided Spanish sense of honour and ownership for one of the early vihuelists here? Just intrigued G. -- To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:kalei...@gmail.com 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA
I meant to say: "An improvement to neapolitan tab" (Which was in Valencian hands at the time) (Also only one remaining ms. and de Milano at that!) It's fascinating to think of what influences were at work there.) G. On Thu, Jan 9, 2020 at 8:23 PM G. C. <[1]kalei...@gmail.com> wrote: Pavanas in italian style, songs in italian, italianate music in a general sense, etc. etc. I don't understand this tip-toeing around the fact that Milan was heavily influenced by Italian art and (lutenist) culture, as many were around this time. And also his surname, which I cannot see has satisfyingly been explained yet. Not to speak about the fascinating Valencian tablature, an improvement (in my view) to italian tab which just didn't catch on. Are we afraid of steping on some misguided Spanish sense of honour and ownership for one of the early vihuelists here? Just intrigued G. -- To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:kalei...@gmail.com 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA
Pavanas in italian style, songs in italian, italianate music in a general sense, etc. etc. I don't understand this tip-toeing around the fact that Milan was heavily influenced by Italian art and (lutenist) culture, as many were around this time. And also his surname, which I cannot see has satisfyingly been explained yet. Not to speak about the fascinating Valencian tablature, an improvement (in my view) to italian tab which just didn't catch on. Are we afraid of steping on some misguided Spanish sense of honour and ownership for one of the early vihuelists here? Just intrigued G. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA
I quite agree to what Lopez says about Italian influence, as I have strived to show in this interchange of ideas: I pointed out, as López does, that Milan did use Italian poetry as texts for his music: the sonnets by Petrarch and Sannazaro. I also mentioned the fact that the court of Ferdinand, count of Calabria, and Germaine de Foix, where Milán moved, was one of the most cultured of its time. López does not mention any influence of Castiglione on Milán other than the vihuelist challenged him with "another model for the ideal courtier". I read this as a different model, quite different in fact, I did mention that Miláns motivation for writing his Cortesano, according to his own words, was to be read by the ladies: if prompting Milan to write the book for this reason counts as influence I will accept it, in this limited sense. It is true that Milán includes references to Dante and Petrarch in El Cortesano, he knew well his Italian poets; this tallies with his use of it for his music. He does also mention the May celebrations, which, incidentally, he uses as an excuse for showing off himself. Regarding the music, all that Lopez says is that he has been compared to the frottolists and some other Italian influences. This is rather disappointing. Compared by whom? On what grounds? With what conclusions? He is wise to recognize that he has "not read anything concrete in that regard". Best wishes, Antonio On Thursday, 9 January 2020, 11:32:51 GMT-6, Ron Andrico wrote: I finally heard from Ignacio Lopez, who is currently presenting the results of his research on Spanish poetry and the music of the vihuelists. "In general terms, it is easy to affirm that Luys Milán had a great deal of Italian influence, although it is unsure he traveled to Italy. His Maestro de vihuela includes the first Italian sonnets ever printed in Spain, and he spent most of his working life at the viceregal court of Valencia. During that time, the viceroy of Valencia was Ferdinand of Aragon, who previously had been the prince heir of Naples before he was brought to Spain after his kingdom was conquered. In his book El Cortesano, Luis Milán challenges Baldasarre Castiglione with another model for the ideal courtier. Milán includes in this book several references to Dante and Petrarch, as well as a recreation of the Italian celebrations for the arrival of the month of May. In what relates to his music, he has been compared with the Italian frottolists (I am unsure of the English spelling here) and some other Italian influences. However, I have never read anything concrete in that regard." __ From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of Lex van Sante Sent: Wednesday, January 8, 2020 8:04 PM To: Mathias Rösel ; lute mailing list list Subject: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name Dear all. Jordi Savall is a promoter of Catalan culture an language. As Valencian language is closely allied to Catalan he apparently saw no problem in catalanizeing ;-) Milan's name. Cheers! Lex van Sante Op 8 jan. 2020, om 09:55 heeft Mathias Rösel <[1]mathias.roe...@t-online.de> het volgende geschreven: Antonio did not postulate. He pointed at evidence. Are you talking of "alternative facts" of the kind the current POTUS and his party buddies make use of? I seriously want to know what made someone like Jordi Savall use a name that Don Luys Milan never used. I don't suppose Savall was calling him names. Mathias __ Gesendet mit der [1]Telekom Mail App --- Original-Nachricht --- Von: Roman Turovsky Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name Datum: 08.01.2020, 1:28 Uhr An: Mathias RÃ �sel, Lutelist Because they lend credence to alternatives of Antonio's postulates!))) RT On 1/6/2020 12:34 PM, Mathias RÃ �sel wrote: Why is that? Let others do as they please. I should only be curious why they did so. Mathias __ Gesendet mit der [1]Telekom Mail App --- Original-Nachricht --- Von: [2][2]r.turov...@gmail.com Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name Datum: 06.01.2020, 18:06 Uhr An: Mathias RÃÆÃ �sel Cc: Lutelist Someone should send a cease order to Jordi Savall and all the other performers who put De Mila'n on their CDs! RT [2][3][3]http://turovsky.org Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes. On Jan 6, 2020, at 11:08 AM, Mathias RÃÆÃ �sel <[3][4][4]mathias.roe...@t-online.de> wrote:
[LUTE] Re: Milan's name - CODA
I finally heard from Ignacio Lopez, who is currently presenting the results of his research on Spanish poetry and the music of the vihuelists. "In general terms, it is easy to affirm that Luys Milán had a great deal of Italian influence, although it is unsure he traveled to Italy. His Maestro de vihuela includes the first Italian sonnets ever printed in Spain, and he spent most of his working life at the viceregal court of Valencia. During that time, the viceroy of Valencia was Ferdinand of Aragon, who previously had been the prince heir of Naples before he was brought to Spain after his kingdom was conquered. In his book El Cortesano, Luis Milán challenges Baldasarre Castiglione with another model for the ideal courtier. Milán includes in this book several references to Dante and Petrarch, as well as a recreation of the Italian celebrations for the arrival of the month of May. In what relates to his music, he has been compared with the Italian frottolists (I am unsure of the English spelling here) and some other Italian influences. However, I have never read anything concrete in that regard." __ From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of Lex van Sante Sent: Wednesday, January 8, 2020 8:04 PM To: Mathias Rösel ; lute mailing list list Subject: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name Dear all. Jordi Savall is a promoter of Catalan culture an language. As Valencian language is closely allied to Catalan he apparently saw no problem in catalanizeing ;-) Milan's name. Cheers! Lex van Sante Op 8 jan. 2020, om 09:55 heeft Mathias Rösel <[1]mathias.roe...@t-online.de> het volgende geschreven: Antonio did not postulate. He pointed at evidence. Are you talking of "alternative facts" of the kind the current POTUS and his party buddies make use of? I seriously want to know what made someone like Jordi Savall use a name that Don Luys Milan never used. I don't suppose Savall was calling him names. Mathias __ Gesendet mit der [1]Telekom Mail App --- Original-Nachricht --- Von: Roman Turovsky Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name Datum: 08.01.2020, 1:28 Uhr An: Mathias Rà �sel, Lutelist Because they lend credence to alternatives of Antonio's postulates!))) RT On 1/6/2020 12:34 PM, Mathias Rà �sel wrote: Why is that? Let others do as they please. I should only be curious why they did so. Mathias __ Gesendet mit der [1]Telekom Mail App --- Original-Nachricht --- Von: [2][2]r.turov...@gmail.com Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name Datum: 06.01.2020, 18:06 Uhr An: Mathias RÃÃà �sel Cc: Lutelist Someone should send a cease order to Jordi Savall and all the other performers who put De Mila'n on their CDs! RT [2][3][3]http://turovsky.org Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes. On Jan 6, 2020, at 11:08 AM, Mathias RÃÃà �sel <[3][4][4]mathias.roe...@t-online.de> wrote: à �à �à � Dear Antonio, please rest assured, no more evidence is demanded. Don Luis Milan was and is his name, and he's not from Milano. They're making fun of it, or so is my impression. Mathias __ Gesendet mit der [1]Telekom Mail App --- Original-Nachricht --- Von: Jurgen Frenz Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name Datum: 06.01.2020, 15:17 Uhr An: Antonio Corona Cc: [4][5][5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Here is the collection of names for SeÃà à �or Luys from the online Petrucci library, for what it's worth: ÃÃà � à � Alternative Names/Transliterations: MillÃà à �n, Luys Milan, Luis de MilÃà à �n, LluÃÃs del MilÃà ÃÃà � à � Name in Other Languages: Luis de MilÃà à �n, ÃÃà � à �ÃÃà � à �ÃÃà � à �ÃÃà � à �ÃÃà �ÃÃà � à �ÃÃà �ÃÃà � à �ÃÃà � à �, LluÃÃs del MilÃà , ÃÃÃà à �Ãà à �Ãà à �Ãà à �, ÃÃÃÃÃà à �Ãà Ãà à �Ãà à �, ÃÃÃÃÃÃÃà à � Ãà à �Ãà ÃÃÃÃÃÃÃà à �Ãà ÃÃà � à � Aliases: Luis de Milan, Luys de Milan, Luys de MilÃà à �n, LluÃÃs MilÃà , Lluis Mila, Luis Milan, Lluis MilÃà , Ll
[LUTE] Re: Milan's name
Dear all. Jordi Savall is a promoter of Catalan culture an language. As Valencian language is closely allied to Catalan he apparently saw no problem in catalanizeing ;-) Milan's name. Cheers! Lex van Sante Op 8 jan. 2020, om 09:55 heeft Mathias Rösel <[1]mathias.roe...@t-online.de> het volgende geschreven: Antonio did not postulate. He pointed at evidence. Are you talking of "alternative facts" of the kind the current POTUS and his party buddies make use of? I seriously want to know what made someone like Jordi Savall use a name that Don Luys Milan never used. I don't suppose Savall was calling him names. Mathias __ Gesendet mit der [1]Telekom Mail App --- Original-Nachricht --- Von: Roman Turovsky Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name Datum: 08.01.2020, 1:28 Uhr An: Mathias Rà �sel, Lutelist Because they lend credence to alternatives of Antonio's postulates!))) RT On 1/6/2020 12:34 PM, Mathias Rà �sel wrote: Why is that? Let others do as they please. I should only be curious why they did so. Mathias __ Gesendet mit der [1]Telekom Mail App --- Original-Nachricht --- Von: [2][2]r.turov...@gmail.com Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name Datum: 06.01.2020, 18:06 Uhr An: Mathias RÃÃà �sel Cc: Lutelist Someone should send a cease order to Jordi Savall and all the other performers who put De Mila'n on their CDs! RT [2][3][3]http://turovsky.org Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes. On Jan 6, 2020, at 11:08 AM, Mathias RÃÃà �sel <[3][4][4]mathias.roe...@t-online.de> wrote: à �à �à � Dear Antonio, please rest assured, no more evidence is demanded. Don Luis Milan was and is his name, and he's not from Milano. They're making fun of it, or so is my impression. Mathias __ Gesendet mit der [1]Telekom Mail App --- Original-Nachricht --- Von: Jurgen Frenz Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name Datum: 06.01.2020, 15:17 Uhr An: Antonio Corona Cc: [4][5][5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Here is the collection of names for SeÃà à �or Luys from the online Petrucci library, for what it's worth: ÃÃà � à � Alternative Names/Transliterations: MillÃà à �n, Luys Milan, Luis de MilÃà à �n, LluÃÃs del MilÃà ÃÃà � à � Name in Other Languages: Luis de MilÃà à �n, ÃÃà � à �ÃÃà � à �ÃÃà � à �ÃÃà � à �ÃÃà �ÃÃà � à �ÃÃà �ÃÃà � à �ÃÃà � à �, LluÃÃs del MilÃà , ÃÃÃà à �Ãà à �Ãà à �Ãà à �, ÃÃÃÃÃà à �Ãà Ãà à �Ãà à �, ÃÃÃÃÃÃÃà à � Ãà à �Ãà ÃÃÃÃÃÃÃà à �Ãà ÃÃà � à � Aliases: Luis de Milan, Luys de Milan, Luys de MilÃà à �n, LluÃÃs MilÃà , Lluis Mila, Luis Milan, Lluis MilÃà , LluÃÃs Mila, LluÃÃs de MilÃà , Luys MilÃà à �n -- "Close your eyes. Fall in love. Stay there." JalÃÃl ad-DÃà à �n Muhammad Rumi ÃÃà �ÃÃà �ÃÃà �ÃÃà �ÃÃà �ÃÃà �ÃÃà � Original Message ÃÃà �ÃÃà �ÃÃà �ÃÃà �ÃÃà �ÃÃà �ÃÃà � On Monday, January 6, 2020 6:41 AM, Antonio Corona <[2][5][6][6]abcor...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: A couple more: Juan Timoneda, Rosas de romances (1573): Don Luys Milan BartolomÃà à � de Villalba y EstaÃà à �a, El pelegrino curioso ... (1577): Don Luys Milan On Sunday, 5 January 2020, 19:24:07 GMT-6, Antonio Corona [3][6][7][7]abcor...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu wrote: Dear friends, Luis MilÃà à �n, Libro de motes (1535): Don Luys Milan Luis MilÃà à �n, El Maestro (1535-36): Luys Milan Luis MilÃà à �n, El cortesano (1561): Don Luys Milan Juan FernÃà à �ndez de Heredia, Las obras ... (1562): Don Luys Milan Gaspar Gil Polo, Diana enamorada (1564): Don Luys Milan Best wishes, Antonio On Sunday, 5 January 2020, 14:26:06 GMT-6, Joachim LÃà à �dtke [4][7][8][8]jo.lued...@t-online.de wrote: In El Cortesano it's Don Luys Milan ÃÃà � à � I am not a home for the next few days, but if anyone has the Facsimile of El Maestro published by the Sociedad de la Vihuela a few years ago, he or she could look into the commentary and see if there is any evidence mentioned for MilÃà à �n, de
[LUTE] Re: Milan's name
Meant to write “a lot LESS “ RT http://turovsky.org Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes. > On Jan 8, 2020, at 6:09 AM, r.turov...@gmail.com wrote: > > In Poland and further east toponymic surnames are a lot common among > gentiles than among Jews. > > In Spain all individuals surnamed Toledo, Segovia, Burgos, Rovira are > descendants of converso families. > RT > > > http://turovsky.org > Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes. > >> On Jan 7, 2020, at 7:06 AM, Joachim Lüdtke wrote: >> >> Not only among Jews, Roman! If every Oesterreicher, Frankfurter or >> what-you-have would be Jewish, there would be no problem for any small >> Kehillah anywhere here to find a Minjan for the Service … >> >> >> Joachim >> >> -Original-Nachricht- >> Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name >> Datum: 2020-01-07T11:18:18+0100 >> Von: "r.turov...@gmail.com" >> An: "Tristan von Neumann" >> >> Toponymical surnames are prevalent among Jews: Toledo, Rovira, Palma and >> Palmieri, Venezia etc etc. >> RT >> >> >> http://turovsky.org >> Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes. >> >>>> On Jan 6, 2020, at 8:48 AM, Tristan von Neumann >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>>> On 06.01.20 05:50, howard posner wrote: >>>>> And wouldn’t a Milanese refer to the city as Milano? >>>>> >>> >>> I guess not. Back then it seems that all city names were somehow >>> transformed into the other languages. >>> >>> Even today it's probably considered fancy if you call it like the >>> natives, especially for German cities. >>> >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKGoVefhtMQ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> To get on or off this list see list information at >>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> >> >> >> >> > >
[LUTE] Re: Milan's name
In Poland and further east toponymic surnames are a lot common among gentiles than among Jews. In Spain all individuals surnamed Toledo, Segovia, Burgos, Rovira are descendants of converso families. RT http://turovsky.org Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes. > On Jan 7, 2020, at 7:06 AM, Joachim Lüdtke wrote: > > Not only among Jews, Roman! If every Oesterreicher, Frankfurter or > what-you-have would be Jewish, there would be no problem for any small > Kehillah anywhere here to find a Minjan for the Service … > > > Joachim > > -Original-Nachricht- > Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name > Datum: 2020-01-07T11:18:18+0100 > Von: "r.turov...@gmail.com" > An: "Tristan von Neumann" > > Toponymical surnames are prevalent among Jews: Toledo, Rovira, Palma and > Palmieri, Venezia etc etc. > RT > > > http://turovsky.org > Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes. > >>> On Jan 6, 2020, at 8:48 AM, Tristan von Neumann >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>>> On 06.01.20 05:50, howard posner wrote: >>> And wouldn’t a Milanese refer to the city as Milano? >>> >> >> I guess not. Back then it seems that all city names were somehow >> transformed into the other languages. >> >> Even today it's probably considered fancy if you call it like the >> natives, especially for German cities. >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKGoVefhtMQ >> >> >> >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > >
[LUTE] Re: Milan's name
There is an even bigger can of worms implied in the Savall debacle: that there is a big “it very well might have been“ that don Lluys wasn’t even Spanish, but rather Catalan. RT http://turovsky.org Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes. > On Jan 8, 2020, at 5:08 AM, r.turov...@gmail.com wrote: > > A cornerstone rule of musicology is that there is absolutely no certainty of > anything, and the only admissible form of presentation is “it very well may > be that etc”, regardless of how axiomatic it may look.))) > RT > > > > http://turovsky.org > Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes. > >> On Jan 8, 2020, at 4:02 AM, Mathias Rösel wrote: >> >> Antonio did not postulate. He pointed at evidence. >> Are you talking of "alternative facts" of the kind the current POTUS >> and his party buddies make use of? >> I seriously want to know what made someone like Jordi Savall use a name >> that Don Luys Milan never used. I don't suppose Savall was calling him >> names. >> Mathias >>__ >> >> Gesendet mit der [1]Telekom Mail App >> --- Original-Nachricht --- >> Von: Roman Turovsky >> Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name >> Datum: 08.01.2020, 1:28 Uhr >> An: Mathias Rösel, Lutelist >> >> Because they lend credence to alternatives of Antonio's postulates!))) >> RT >>>> On 1/6/2020 12:34 PM, Mathias Rösel wrote: >>> Why is that? Let others do as they please. I should only be curious >> why >>> they did so. >>> Mathias >>> __ >>> >>> Gesendet mit der [1]Telekom Mail App >>> --- Original-Nachricht --- >>> Von: [2]r.turov...@gmail.com >>> Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name >>> Datum: 06.01.2020, 18:06 Uhr >>> An: Mathias RÃÆà ¶sel >>> Cc: Lutelist >>> >>> Someone should send a cease order to Jordi Savall and all the >>> other performers who put De Mila'n on their CDs! >>> RT >>> >>> [2][3]http://turovsky.org >>> Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes. >>>> On Jan 6, 2020, at 11:08 AM, Mathias RÃÆà ¶sel >>> <[3][4]mathias.roe...@t-online.de> wrote: >>>> >>>> à ¯Ã »Ã ¿ Dear Antonio, >>>> please rest assured, no more evidence is demanded. Don Luis Milan >> was >>>> and is his name, and he's not from Milano. >>>> They're making fun of it, or so is my impression. >>>> Mathias >>>> __ >>>> >>>> Gesendet mit der [1]Telekom Mail App >>>> --- Original-Nachricht --- >>>> Von: Jurgen Frenz >>>> Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name >>>> Datum: 06.01.2020, 15:17 Uhr >>>> An: Antonio Corona >>>> Cc: [4][5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >>>> >>>> Here is the collection of names for SeÃÆ Ã ±or Luys from the online >>>> Petrucci library, for what it's worth: >>>> ÃÆà ¯ à ¼ >>>> Alternative Names/Transliterations: MillÃÆ Ã ¡n, Luys Milan, Luis >> de >>>> MilÃÆ Ã ¡n, LluÃÆs del MilÃÆ >>>> ÃÆà ¯ à ¼ >>>> Name in Other Languages: Luis de MilÃÆ Ã ¡n, ÃÆà £ à «ÃÆà £ à ¤ÃÆà >> £ à ¹ÃÆà £ à »ÃÆà £ÃÆà £ à »ÃÆà £ÃÆà £ >>> à ©ÃÆà £ à ³, LluÃÆs del >>>> MilÃÆ , ÃÆÃÆ Ã ¸ÃÆ Ã »ÃÆ Ã °ÃÆ Ã ½, ÃÆÃÆÃÆ Ã ¸ÃÆ ÃÆ Ã ´ÃÆ Ã µ, >> ÃÆÃÆÃÆÃÆ Ã ³ ÃÆ Ã ¯ÃÆ ÃÆÃÆÃÆÃÆ Ã §ÃÆ >>>> ÃÆà ¯ à ¼ >>>> Aliases: Luis de Milan, Luys de Milan, Luys de MilÃÆ Ã ¡n, LluÃÆs >> MilÃÆ , >>>> Lluis Mila, Luis Milan, Lluis MilÃÆ , LluÃÆs Mila, LluÃÆs de MilÃÆ >> , Luys >>>> MilÃÆ Ã ¡n >>>> -- >>>> "Close your eyes. Fall in love. Stay there." >>>> JalÃÆl ad-DÃÆ Ã «n Muhammad Rumi >>>> ÃÆà ¢ÃÆà ¢ÃÆà ¢ÃÆà ¢ÃÆà ¢ÃÆà ¢ÃÆà ¢ Original Message ÃÆà ¢ÃÆà ¢ÃÆà >> ¢ÃÆà ¢ÃÆà ¢ÃÆà ¢ÃÆà ¢ >>>>> On Monday, January 6, 2020 6:41 AM, Antonio Corona >>>>> <[2][5][6]abcor...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: >>>>> A couple more: >>>>> >>>>> Juan Timoneda, Rosas de romances (1573): Don Luys Milan >>>>> >>>>> BartolomÃÆ Ã © de Villalba y EstaÃÆ Ã ±a, El pelegrino curioso ... >> (1577): >>>> Don Luys Milan >>>>> >>>>>> On Sunday, 5 January 2020, 19:24:07 GMT-6, Anto
[LUTE] Re: Milan's name
A cornerstone rule of musicology is that there is absolutely no certainty of anything, and the only admissible form of presentation is “it very well may be that etc”, regardless of how axiomatic it may look.))) RT http://turovsky.org Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes. > On Jan 8, 2020, at 4:02 AM, Mathias Rösel wrote: > > Antonio did not postulate. He pointed at evidence. > Are you talking of "alternative facts" of the kind the current POTUS > and his party buddies make use of? > I seriously want to know what made someone like Jordi Savall use a name > that Don Luys Milan never used. I don't suppose Savall was calling him > names. > Mathias > __ > > Gesendet mit der [1]Telekom Mail App > --- Original-Nachricht --- > Von: Roman Turovsky > Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name > Datum: 08.01.2020, 1:28 Uhr > An: Mathias Rösel, Lutelist > > Because they lend credence to alternatives of Antonio's postulates!))) > RT >> On 1/6/2020 12:34 PM, Mathias Rösel wrote: >> Why is that? Let others do as they please. I should only be curious > why >> they did so. >> Mathias >> __ >> >> Gesendet mit der [1]Telekom Mail App >> --- Original-Nachricht --- >> Von: [2]r.turov...@gmail.com >> Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name >> Datum: 06.01.2020, 18:06 Uhr >> An: Mathias RÃÆà ¶sel >> Cc: Lutelist >> >> Someone should send a cease order to Jordi Savall and all the >> other performers who put De Mila'n on their CDs! >> RT >> >> [2][3]http://turovsky.org >> Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes. >>> On Jan 6, 2020, at 11:08 AM, Mathias RÃÆà ¶sel >> <[3][4]mathias.roe...@t-online.de> wrote: >>> >>> à ¯Ã »Ã ¿ Dear Antonio, >>> please rest assured, no more evidence is demanded. Don Luis Milan > was >>> and is his name, and he's not from Milano. >>> They're making fun of it, or so is my impression. >>> Mathias >>> __ >>> >>> Gesendet mit der [1]Telekom Mail App >>> --- Original-Nachricht --- >>> Von: Jurgen Frenz >>> Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name >>> Datum: 06.01.2020, 15:17 Uhr >>> An: Antonio Corona >>> Cc: [4][5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >>> >>> Here is the collection of names for SeÃÆ Ã ±or Luys from the online >>> Petrucci library, for what it's worth: >>> ÃÆà ¯ à ¼ >>> Alternative Names/Transliterations: MillÃÆ Ã ¡n, Luys Milan, Luis > de >>> MilÃÆ Ã ¡n, LluÃÆs del MilÃÆ >>> ÃÆà ¯ à ¼ >>> Name in Other Languages: Luis de MilÃÆ Ã ¡n, ÃÆà £ à «ÃÆà £ à ¤ÃÆà > £ à ¹ÃÆà £ à »ÃÆà £ÃÆà £ à »ÃÆà £ÃÆà £ >> à ©ÃÆà £ à ³, LluÃÆs del >>> MilÃÆ , ÃÆÃÆ Ã ¸ÃÆ Ã »ÃÆ Ã °ÃÆ Ã ½, ÃÆÃÆÃÆ Ã ¸ÃÆ ÃÆ Ã ´ÃÆ Ã µ, > ÃÆÃÆÃÆÃÆ Ã ³ ÃÆ Ã ¯ÃÆ ÃÆÃÆÃÆÃÆ Ã §ÃÆ >>> ÃÆà ¯ à ¼ >>> Aliases: Luis de Milan, Luys de Milan, Luys de MilÃÆ Ã ¡n, LluÃÆs > MilÃÆ , >>> Lluis Mila, Luis Milan, Lluis MilÃÆ , LluÃÆs Mila, LluÃÆs de MilÃÆ > , Luys >>> MilÃÆ Ã ¡n >>> -- >>> "Close your eyes. Fall in love. Stay there." >>> JalÃÆl ad-DÃÆ Ã «n Muhammad Rumi >>> ÃÆà ¢ÃÆà ¢ÃÆà ¢ÃÆà ¢ÃÆà ¢ÃÆà ¢ÃÆà ¢ Original Message ÃÆà ¢ÃÆà ¢ÃÆà > ¢ÃÆà ¢ÃÆà ¢ÃÆà ¢ÃÆà ¢ >>>> On Monday, January 6, 2020 6:41 AM, Antonio Corona >>>> <[2][5][6]abcor...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: >>>> A couple more: >>>> >>>> Juan Timoneda, Rosas de romances (1573): Don Luys Milan >>>> >>>> BartolomÃÆ Ã © de Villalba y EstaÃÆ Ã ±a, El pelegrino curioso ... > (1577): >>> Don Luys Milan >>>> >>>>> On Sunday, 5 January 2020, 19:24:07 GMT-6, Antonio Corona >>>> [3][6][7]abcor...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu wrote: >>>> >>>> Dear friends, >>>> >>>> Luis MilÃÆ Ã ¡n, Libro de motes (1535): Don Luys Milan >>>> >>>> Luis MilÃÆ Ã ¡n, El Maestro (1535-36): Luys Milan >>>> >>>> Luis MilÃÆ Ã ¡n, El cortesano (1561): Don Luys Milan >>>> >>>> Juan FernÃÆ Ã ¡ndez de Heredia, Las obras ... (1562): Don Luys > Milan >>>> >>>> Gaspar Gil Polo, Diana enamorada (1564): Don Luys Milan >>>> >>>> Best wishes, >>>> Antonio >>>> >>>>> On Sunday, 5 January 2020,
[LUTE] Re: Milan's name
Antonio did not postulate. He pointed at evidence. Are you talking of "alternative facts" of the kind the current POTUS and his party buddies make use of? I seriously want to know what made someone like Jordi Savall use a name that Don Luys Milan never used. I don't suppose Savall was calling him names. Mathias __ Gesendet mit der [1]Telekom Mail App --- Original-Nachricht --- Von: Roman Turovsky Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name Datum: 08.01.2020, 1:28 Uhr An: Mathias Rösel, Lutelist Because they lend credence to alternatives of Antonio's postulates!))) RT On 1/6/2020 12:34 PM, Mathias Rösel wrote: > Why is that? Let others do as they please. I should only be curious why > they did so. > Mathias > __ > > Gesendet mit der [1]Telekom Mail App > --- Original-Nachricht --- > Von: [2]r.turov...@gmail.com > Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name > Datum: 06.01.2020, 18:06 Uhr > An: Mathias RÃÃà ¶sel > Cc: Lutelist > > Someone should send a cease order to Jordi Savall and all the > other performers who put De Mila'n on their CDs! > RT > > [2][3]http://turovsky.org > Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes. > > On Jan 6, 2020, at 11:08 AM, Mathias RÃÃà ¶sel > <[3][4]mathias.roe...@t-online.de> wrote: > > > > à ¯à »à ¿ Dear Antonio, > > please rest assured, no more evidence is demanded. Don Luis Milan was > > and is his name, and he's not from Milano. > > They're making fun of it, or so is my impression. > > Mathias > > __ > > > > Gesendet mit der [1]Telekom Mail App > > --- Original-Nachricht --- > > Von: Jurgen Frenz > > Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name > > Datum: 06.01.2020, 15:17 Uhr > > An: Antonio Corona > > Cc: [4][5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > > > > Here is the collection of names for SeÃà à ±or Luys from the online > > Petrucci library, for what it's worth: > > ÃÃà ¯ à ¼ > > Alternative Names/Transliterations: MillÃà à ¡n, Luys Milan, Luis de > > MilÃà à ¡n, LluÃÃs del MilÃà > > ÃÃà ¯ à ¼ > > Name in Other Languages: Luis de MilÃà à ¡n, ÃÃà £ à «ÃÃà £ à ¤ÃÃà £ à ¹ÃÃà £ à »ÃÃà £ÃÃà £ à »ÃÃà £ÃÃà £ > à ©ÃÃà £ à ³, LluÃÃs del > > MilÃà , ÃÃÃà à ¸Ãà à »Ãà à °Ãà à ½, ÃÃÃÃÃà à ¸Ãà Ãà à ´Ãà à µ, ÃÃÃÃÃÃÃà à ³ Ãà à ¯Ãà ÃÃÃÃÃÃÃà à §Ãà > > ÃÃà ¯ à ¼ > > Aliases: Luis de Milan, Luys de Milan, Luys de MilÃà à ¡n, LluÃÃs MilÃà , > > Lluis Mila, Luis Milan, Lluis MilÃà , LluÃÃs Mila, LluÃÃs de MilÃà , Luys > > MilÃà à ¡n > > -- > > "Close your eyes. Fall in love. Stay there." > > JalÃÃl ad-DÃà à «n Muhammad Rumi > > ÃÃà ¢ÃÃà ¢ÃÃà ¢ÃÃà ¢ÃÃà ¢ÃÃà ¢ÃÃà ¢ Original Message ÃÃà ¢ÃÃà ¢ÃÃà ¢ÃÃà ¢ÃÃà ¢ÃÃà ¢ÃÃà ¢ > >> On Monday, January 6, 2020 6:41 AM, Antonio Corona > >> <[2][5][6]abcor...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: > >> A couple more: > >> > >> Juan Timoneda, Rosas de romances (1573): Don Luys Milan > >> > >> BartolomÃà à © de Villalba y EstaÃà à ±a, El pelegrino curioso ... (1577): > > Don Luys Milan > >> > >>> On Sunday, 5 January 2020, 19:24:07 GMT-6, Antonio Corona > >> [3][6][7]abcor...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu wrote: > >> > >> Dear friends, > >> > >> Luis MilÃà à ¡n, Libro de motes (1535): Don Luys Milan > >> > >> Luis MilÃà à ¡n, El Maestro (1535-36): Luys Milan > >> > >> Luis MilÃà à ¡n, El cortesano (1561): Don Luys Milan > >> > >> Juan FernÃà à ¡ndez de Heredia, Las obras ... (1562): Don Luys Milan > >> > >> Gaspar Gil Polo, Diana enamorada (1564): Don Luys Milan > >> > >> Best wishes, > >> Antonio > >> > >>> On Sunday, 5 January 2020, 14:26:06 GMT-6, Joachim LÃà à ¼dtke > >> [4][7][8]jo.lued...@t-online.de wrote: > >> > >> In El Cortesano it's Don Luys Milan ÃÃà ¢ à ¦ I am not a home for the > next
[LUTE] Re: Milan's name
Is there a conspiracy to hide the fact that he was the brother of Francesco? :) On 08.01.20 01:28, Roman Turovsky wrote: Because they lend credence to alternatives of Antonio's postulates!))) RT On 1/6/2020 12:34 PM, Mathias Rösel wrote: Why is that? Let others do as they please. I should only be curious why they did so. Mathias __ Gesendet mit der [1]Telekom Mail App --- Original-Nachricht --- Von: r.turov...@gmail.com Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name Datum: 06.01.2020, 18:06 Uhr An: Mathias Rösel Cc: Lutelist Someone should send a cease order to Jordi Savall and all the other performers who put De Mila'n on their CDs! RT [2]http://turovsky.org Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes. > On Jan 6, 2020, at 11:08 AM, Mathias Rösel <[3]mathias.roe...@t-online.de> wrote: > >  Dear Antonio, > please rest assured, no more evidence is demanded. Don Luis Milan was > and is his name, and he's not from Milano. > They're making fun of it, or so is my impression. > Mathias > __ > > Gesendet mit der [1]Telekom Mail App > --- Original-Nachricht --- > Von: Jurgen Frenz > Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name > Datum: 06.01.2020, 15:17 Uhr > An: Antonio Corona > Cc: [4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > > Here is the collection of names for Seà ±or Luys from the online > Petrucci library, for what it's worth: > ï ¼ > Alternative Names/Transliterations: Millà ¡n, Luys Milan, Luis de > Milà ¡n, LluÃs del Milà > ï ¼ > Name in Other Languages: Luis de Milà ¡n, 㠫㠤㠹㠻ã㠻ã㠩ã ³, LluÃs del > Milà , Ãà ¸Ã »Ã °Ã ½, ÃÃà ¸Ã à ´Ã µ, ÃÃÃà ³ à ¯Ã ÃÃÃà §Ã > ï ¼ > Aliases: Luis de Milan, Luys de Milan, Luys de Milà ¡n, LluÃs Milà , > Lluis Mila, Luis Milan, Lluis Milà , LluÃs Mila, LluÃs de Milà , Luys > Milà ¡n > -- > "Close your eyes. Fall in love. Stay there." > JalÃl ad-Dà «n Muhammad Rumi > âââââââ Original Message âââââââ >> On Monday, January 6, 2020 6:41 AM, Antonio Corona >> <[2][5]abcor...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: >> A couple more: >> >> Juan Timoneda, Rosas de romances (1573): Don Luys Milan >> >> Bartolomà © de Villalba y Estaà ±a, El pelegrino curioso ... (1577): > Don Luys Milan >> >>> On Sunday, 5 January 2020, 19:24:07 GMT-6, Antonio Corona >> [3][6]abcor...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu wrote: >> >> Dear friends, >> >> Luis Milà ¡n, Libro de motes (1535): Don Luys Milan >> >> Luis Milà ¡n, El Maestro (1535-36): Luys Milan >> >> Luis Milà ¡n, El cortesano (1561): Don Luys Milan >> >> Juan Fernà ¡ndez de Heredia, Las obras ... (1562): Don Luys Milan >> >> Gaspar Gil Polo, Diana enamorada (1564): Don Luys Milan >> >> Best wishes, >> Antonio >> >>> On Sunday, 5 January 2020, 14:26:06 GMT-6, Joachim Là ¼dtke >> [4][7]jo.lued...@t-online.de wrote: >> >> In El Cortesano it's Don Luys Milan â ¦ I am not a home for the next > few days, but if anyone has the Facsimile of El Maestro published by > the Sociedad de la Vihuela a few years ago, he or she could look into > the commentary and see if there is any evidence mentioned for Milà ¡n, > de Milà ¡n or similar. >> >> Best >> >> Joachim >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> [5][8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > -- > > References > > 1. [9]https://kommunikationsdienste.t-online.de/redirects/email_app_androi d_sendmail_footer > 2. mailto:[10]abcor...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > 3. mailto:[11]abcor...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > 4. mailto:[12]jo.lued...@t-online.de > 5. [13]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > -- References 1. https://kommunikationsdienste.t-online.de/redirects/email_app_android_sendmail_footer 2. http://turovsky.org/ 3. mailto:mathias.roe...@t-online.de 4. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 5. mailto:abcor...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu 6. mailto:abcor...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu 7. mailto:jo.lued...@t-online.de 8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 9. https://kommunikationsdienste.t-online.de/redirects/email_app_android_sendmail_footer 10. mailto:abcor...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu 11. mailto:abcor...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu 12. mailto:jo.lued...@t-online.de 13. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Milan's name
Because they lend credence to alternatives of Antonio's postulates!))) RT On 1/6/2020 12:34 PM, Mathias Rösel wrote: Why is that? Let others do as they please. I should only be curious why they did so. Mathias __ Gesendet mit der [1]Telekom Mail App --- Original-Nachricht --- Von: r.turov...@gmail.com Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name Datum: 06.01.2020, 18:06 Uhr An: Mathias Rösel Cc: Lutelist Someone should send a cease order to Jordi Savall and all the other performers who put De Mila'n on their CDs! RT [2]http://turovsky.org Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes. > On Jan 6, 2020, at 11:08 AM, Mathias Rösel <[3]mathias.roe...@t-online.de> wrote: > >  Dear Antonio, > please rest assured, no more evidence is demanded. Don Luis Milan was > and is his name, and he's not from Milano. > They're making fun of it, or so is my impression. > Mathias > __ > > Gesendet mit der [1]Telekom Mail App > --- Original-Nachricht --- > Von: Jurgen Frenz > Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name > Datum: 06.01.2020, 15:17 Uhr > An: Antonio Corona > Cc: [4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > > Here is the collection of names for Seà ±or Luys from the online > Petrucci library, for what it's worth: > ï ¼ > Alternative Names/Transliterations: Millà ¡n, Luys Milan, Luis de > Milà ¡n, LluÃs del Milà > ï ¼ > Name in Other Languages: Luis de Milà ¡n, 㠫㠤㠹㠻ã㠻ã㠩ã ³, LluÃs del > Milà , Ãà ¸Ã »Ã °Ã ½, ÃÃà ¸Ã à ´Ã µ, ÃÃÃà ³ à ¯Ã ÃÃÃà §Ã > ï ¼ > Aliases: Luis de Milan, Luys de Milan, Luys de Milà ¡n, LluÃs Milà , > Lluis Mila, Luis Milan, Lluis Milà , LluÃs Mila, LluÃs de Milà , Luys > Milà ¡n > -- > "Close your eyes. Fall in love. Stay there." > JalÃl ad-Dà «n Muhammad Rumi > âââââââ Original Message âââââââ >> On Monday, January 6, 2020 6:41 AM, Antonio Corona >> <[2][5]abcor...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: >> A couple more: >> >> Juan Timoneda, Rosas de romances (1573): Don Luys Milan >> >> Bartolomà © de Villalba y Estaà ±a, El pelegrino curioso ... (1577): > Don Luys Milan >> >>> On Sunday, 5 January 2020, 19:24:07 GMT-6, Antonio Corona >> [3][6]abcor...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu wrote: >> >> Dear friends, >> >> Luis Milà ¡n, Libro de motes (1535): Don Luys Milan >> >> Luis Milà ¡n, El Maestro (1535-36): Luys Milan >> >> Luis Milà ¡n, El cortesano (1561): Don Luys Milan >> >> Juan Fernà ¡ndez de Heredia, Las obras ... (1562): Don Luys Milan >> >> Gaspar Gil Polo, Diana enamorada (1564): Don Luys Milan >> >> Best wishes, >> Antonio >> >>> On Sunday, 5 January 2020, 14:26:06 GMT-6, Joachim Là ¼dtke >> [4][7]jo.lued...@t-online.de wrote: >> >> In El Cortesano it's Don Luys Milan â ¦ I am not a home for the next > few days, but if anyone has the Facsimile of El Maestro published by > the Sociedad de la Vihuela a few years ago, he or she could look into > the commentary and see if there is any evidence mentioned for Milà ¡n, > de Milà ¡n or similar. >> >> Best >> >> Joachim >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> [5][8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > -- > > References > > 1. [9]https://kommunikationsdienste.t-online.de/redirects/email_app_androi d_sendmail_footer > 2. mailto:[10]abcor...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > 3. mailto:[11]abcor...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > 4. mailto:[12]jo.lued...@t-online.de > 5. [13]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > -- References 1. https://kommunikationsdienste.t-online.de/redirects/email_app_android_sendmail_footer 2. http://turovsky.org/ 3. mailto:mathias.roe...@t-online.de 4. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 5. mailto:abcor...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu 6. mailto:abcor...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu 7. mailto:jo.lued...@t-online.de 8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 9. https://kommunikationsdienste.t-online.de/redirects/email_app_android_sendmail_footer 10. mailto:abcor...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu 11. mailto:abcor...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu 12. mailto:jo.lued...@t-online.de 13. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Milan's name
Dear Ron I don't believe Milán set the standard for later vihuelists, at least for those whose works we know. His works, as you rightly pointed out are quite idiosyncratic and unlike those which followed. On the other hand you may be right about the term Fantasia. This is what Milán has to say about it: Qualquiera obra deste libro de qualquier tono que sea: se intitula fantasia: a respecto que solo procede de la fantasia y industria del auctor que la hizo. Regarding Díaz Romano, the name may seem a fairly unambigous reference except from the fact that he hailed from Guadalupe, in Extremadura. He set his printing press in 1530 at Valencia succeding Cristóbal Cofman and in that year he published a Glosa by Alonso de Cervantes and later used the printer`s mark of Juan Joffre, as well as his type and presses. Thereafter he published quite a number of books, most of them in Spanish until 1541 (except books such as Jaume Roig's Llibre de consells, 1531, the Breviarum Valentinum, 1533 or the Furs of Valencia, 1539- none in Italian) when he returned to Guadalupe. One of the main influences for printers, and specially printers of musical treatises -I suspect not being a specialist in the subject- came from Germany, as may be gathered from printers of incunabula such as the Cuatro compañeros alemanes (Domingo Marcos Durán, Lux Bella, 1492) and Petrum Haguenbach & Leonardus Hutz alemanes (Guillermo de Podio, Ars Musicorum, 1495); early Sixteenth-Century books, such as Johan Rosebach aleman (Francisco Tovar, Libro de musica practica, 1510) and Fadrique aleman de Basilea (Gonzalo Martínez de Bizcargui, Arte de canto llano, 1515; Intonaciones nuevamente corregidas, 1515); or even printers of non musical books such as Johannem gherlinc alamanum (Pro condendis orationibus, 1468) - I quote from the colophons where they all call themselves Germans. There is even a privilege from the Catholic Monarchs dated in 1477 in favour of a Teodorico aleman. A tell tell sign in the case of Milán is the use of Gothic type instead of the Roman one used ! in five of the later vihuela books (with the exception of Narváez's Seys libros del delphin). Best wishes Antonio On Tuesday, 7 January 2020, 05:15:49 GMT-6, Ron Andrico wrote: Dear Antonio: Thank you for this clarification. While I appreciate Milan and his status as a pioneer in documenting Spanish music and courtly custom—and setting a standard for the later viheula prints—it seems to me (and others) that he was strongly influenced by trends emerging from Italy. I don't know this for certain but I suspect Milan was among the first to use of the term Fantasia to describe his instrumental excogitations, since Recercar was the preferred term in the earlier Italian lute books. One last thing regarding surnames: It is interesting to note that El Maestro was published by Francisco Díaz Romano, a fairly unambiguous reference. Best wishes, RA __ From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of Antonio Corona Sent: Monday, January 6, 2020 7:21 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name Dear Ron I`m sorry if my position is unclear. It would be foolish to claim that Milan was unaware of the cultural currents prevalent at the time. He moved in one of the most refined courts of the time and surely was influenced -one way or another- by them. For example, the poetic trends in Spain at the time, as López Alemany puts forward, can be clearly detected in Milán by his use of the Italian sonnets by Petrarch and Sannazaro. This influence can also be found later in Mudarra's own book. Furthermore, the first evidence of the use of the Italian sonnet as a means for poetic expression in Spanish date from some time before, according to Juan Boscán, who was prompred by a conversation with Andrea Navaggiero in 1526 to try his hand at writing Spanish endecasyllabic poetry. Boscán published his first book of such verse in 1543 and guess what: sure enough, later on Milán included more that 40 sonnets in Spanish in El Cortesano. He was indeed aware and influenced of the cultural t! rends of his time. Now, I would be wary of confusing this influence with the direct use of Italian models for his own compositions. While there is a resemblance in the harmonic pattern (if I may anachronistically call it that way) between Verdelot and Miláns versions of Maddona, I think that Milán did not derive his own from any of the Verdelot's books; the evidence may be flimsy, but there is a textual difference between both versions that suggets that Milán drew his text from another source: "et voi non me´l credete " (Verdelot) as opposed to "et voi non mi credete" (Milán). I am aware that this may be subjet to criticism, but to me it points to a more complex
[LUTE] Re: Milan's name
I said more that 2%, not 2%, and I was referring to the average Jewish percentage of the population. Just guessing, but when I look up someone with a toponymical surename, it seems more like 20-50%, depending on the Jewish population at the place back then. (Oppenheimer, Wertheimer are probably mostly Jewish...) On 07.01.20 15:40, Mathias Rösel wrote: Two percent equals "often"? Serious? Mathias __ Gesendet mit der [1]Telekom Mail App --- Original-Nachricht --- Von: Tristan von Neumann Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name Datum: 07.01.2020, 15:24 Uhr An: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu You get a toponymical surname because people say: that's Hans, he moved here from Nuremberg. Since we already have dozens of Hansens, let's call him Nürnberger. In many regions in Bavaria still today the Surname is moved to first place when talking about people. So "der Nürnberger Hans" becomes Hans Nürnberger. I think Roman is right that toponymical surnames are often Jewish, because Jews often moved around. Certainly more than 2% of such names belong to Jewish owners. On 07.01.20 13:02, Joachim Lüdtke wrote: > Not only among Jews, Roman! If every Oesterreicher, Frankfurter or what-you-have would be Jewish, there would be no problem for any small Kehillah anywhere here to find a Minjan for the Service ⦠> > > Joachim > > -Original-Nachricht----- > Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name > Datum: 2020-01-07T11:18:18+0100 > Von: "[2]r.turov...@gmail.com" <[3]r.turov...@gmail.com> > An: "Tristan von Neumann" <[4]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> > > Toponymical surnames are prevalent among Jews: Toledo, Rovira, Palma and Palmieri, Venezia etc etc. > RT > > > [5]http://turovsky.org > Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes. > >> On Jan 6, 2020, at 8:48 AM, Tristan von Neumann <[6]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote: >> >> >>> On 06.01.20 05:50, howard posner wrote: >>> And wouldn't a Milanese refer to the city as Milano? >>> >> I guess not. Back then it seems that all city names were somehow >> transformed into the other languages. >> >> Even today it's probably considered fancy if you call it like the >> natives, especially for German cities. >> >> [7]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKGoVefhtMQ >> >> >> >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> [8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >  > > -- References 1. https://kommunikationsdienste.t-online.de/redirects/email_app_android_sendmail_footer 2. mailto:r.turov...@gmail.com 3. mailto:r.turov...@gmail.com 4. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de 5. http://turovsky.org/ 6. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de 7. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKGoVefhtMQ 8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Milan's name
Two percent equals "often"? Serious? Mathias __ Gesendet mit der [1]Telekom Mail App --- Original-Nachricht --- Von: Tristan von Neumann Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name Datum: 07.01.2020, 15:24 Uhr An: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu You get a toponymical surname because people say: that's Hans, he moved here from Nuremberg. Since we already have dozens of Hansens, let's call him Nürnberger. In many regions in Bavaria still today the Surname is moved to first place when talking about people. So "der Nürnberger Hans" becomes Hans Nürnberger. I think Roman is right that toponymical surnames are often Jewish, because Jews often moved around. Certainly more than 2% of such names belong to Jewish owners. On 07.01.20 13:02, Joachim Lüdtke wrote: > Not only among Jews, Roman! If every Oesterreicher, Frankfurter or what-you-have would be Jewish, there would be no problem for any small Kehillah anywhere here to find a Minjan for the Service ⦠> > > Joachim > > -Original-Nachricht- > Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name > Datum: 2020-01-07T11:18:18+0100 > Von: "[2]r.turov...@gmail.com" <[3]r.turov...@gmail.com> > An: "Tristan von Neumann" <[4]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> > > Toponymical surnames are prevalent among Jews: Toledo, Rovira, Palma and Palmieri, Venezia etc etc. > RT > > > [5]http://turovsky.org > Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes. > >> On Jan 6, 2020, at 8:48 AM, Tristan von Neumann <[6]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote: >> >> >>> On 06.01.20 05:50, howard posner wrote: >>> And wouldn't a Milanese refer to the city as Milano? >>> >> I guess not. Back then it seems that all city names were somehow >> transformed into the other languages. >> >> Even today it's probably considered fancy if you call it like the >> natives, especially for German cities. >> >> [7]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKGoVefhtMQ >> >> >> >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> [8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >  > > -- References 1. https://kommunikationsdienste.t-online.de/redirects/email_app_android_sendmail_footer 2. mailto:r.turov...@gmail.com 3. mailto:r.turov...@gmail.com 4. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de 5. http://turovsky.org/ 6. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de 7. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKGoVefhtMQ 8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Milan's name
You get a toponymical surname because people say: that's Hans, he moved here from Nuremberg. Since we already have dozens of Hansens, let's call him Nürnberger. In many regions in Bavaria still today the Surname is moved to first place when talking about people. So "der Nürnberger Hans" becomes Hans Nürnberger. I think Roman is right that toponymical surnames are often Jewish, because Jews often moved around. Certainly more than 2% of such names belong to Jewish owners. On 07.01.20 13:02, Joachim Lüdtke wrote: Not only among Jews, Roman! If every Oesterreicher, Frankfurter or what-you-have would be Jewish, there would be no problem for any small Kehillah anywhere here to find a Minjan for the Service … Joachim -Original-Nachricht- Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name Datum: 2020-01-07T11:18:18+0100 Von: "r.turov...@gmail.com" An: "Tristan von Neumann" Toponymical surnames are prevalent among Jews: Toledo, Rovira, Palma and Palmieri, Venezia etc etc. RT http://turovsky.org Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes. On Jan 6, 2020, at 8:48 AM, Tristan von Neumann wrote: On 06.01.20 05:50, howard posner wrote: And wouldn’t a Milanese refer to the city as Milano? I guess not. Back then it seems that all city names were somehow transformed into the other languages. Even today it's probably considered fancy if you call it like the natives, especially for German cities. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKGoVefhtMQ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Milan's name
Dear Mathias, could you kindly explain to me, why Milan's surname could not possibly imply that his family roots might have been from Milano? G. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Milan's name
Toponymical family names are quite common among Germans, and inferentially among German Jews. Nevertheless, Don Luys Milan did not hail from Milano, or at least his name is no hint he did. Antonio brought enough evidence. And there's no evidence at all that Milan was Jewish. Also, he was not an elephant. Mathias __ Gesendet mit der [1]Telekom Mail App --- Original-Nachricht --- Von: r.turov...@gmail.com Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name Datum: 07.01.2020, 11:16 Uhr An: Tristan von Neumann Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Toponymical surnames are prevalent among Jews: Toledo, Rovira, Palma and Palmieri, Venezia etc etc. RT [2]http://turovsky.org Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes. > On Jan 6, 2020, at 8:48 AM, Tristan von Neumann <[3]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote: > >  >> On 06.01.20 05:50, howard posner wrote: >> And wouldn't a Milanese refer to the city as Milano? >> > > I guess not. Back then it seems that all city names were somehow > transformed into the other languages. > > Even today it's probably considered fancy if you call it like the > natives, especially for German cities. > > [4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKGoVefhtMQ > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. https://kommunikationsdienste.t-online.de/redirects/email_app_android_sendmail_footer 2. http://turovsky.org/ 3. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de 4. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKGoVefhtMQ 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Milan's name
Not only among Jews, Roman! If every Oesterreicher, Frankfurter or what-you-have would be Jewish, there would be no problem for any small Kehillah anywhere here to find a Minjan for the Service … Joachim -Original-Nachricht- Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name Datum: 2020-01-07T11:18:18+0100 Von: "r.turov...@gmail.com" An: "Tristan von Neumann" Toponymical surnames are prevalent among Jews: Toledo, Rovira, Palma and Palmieri, Venezia etc etc. RT http://turovsky.org Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes. > On Jan 6, 2020, at 8:48 AM, Tristan von Neumann > wrote: > > >> On 06.01.20 05:50, howard posner wrote: >> And wouldn’t a Milanese refer to the city as Milano? >> > > I guess not. Back then it seems that all city names were somehow > transformed into the other languages. > > Even today it's probably considered fancy if you call it like the > natives, especially for German cities. > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKGoVefhtMQ > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Milan's name
Dear Antonio: Thank you for this clarification. While I appreciate Milan and his status as a pioneer in documenting Spanish music and courtly customâand setting a standard for the later viheula printsâit seems to me (and others) that he was strongly influenced by trends emerging from Italy. I don't know this for certain but I suspect Milan was among the first to use of the term Fantasia to describe his instrumental excogitations, since Recercar was the preferred term in the earlier Italian lute books. One last thing regarding surnames: It is interesting to note that El Maestro was published by Francisco DÃaz Romano, a fairly unambiguous reference. Best wishes, RA __ From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of Antonio Corona Sent: Monday, January 6, 2020 7:21 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name Dear Ron I`m sorry if my position is unclear. It would be foolish to claim that Milan was unaware of the cultural currents prevalent at the time. He moved in one of the most refined courts of the time and surely was influenced -one way or another- by them. For example, the poetic trends in Spain at the time, as López Alemany puts forward, can be clearly detected in Milán by his use of the Italian sonnets by Petrarch and Sannazaro. This influence can also be found later in Mudarra's own book. Furthermore, the first evidence of the use of the Italian sonnet as a means for poetic expression in Spanish date from some time before, according to Juan Boscán, who was prompred by a conversation with Andrea Navaggiero in 1526 to try his hand at writing Spanish endecasyllabic poetry. Boscán published his first book of such verse in 1543 and guess what: sure enough, later on Milán included more that 40 sonnets in Spanish in El Cortesano. He was indeed aware and influenced of the cultural t! rends of his time. Now, I would be wary of confusing this influence with the direct use of Italian models for his own compositions. While there is a resemblance in the harmonic pattern (if I may anachronistically call it that way) between Verdelot and Miláns versions of Maddona, I think that Milán did not derive his own from any of the Verdelot's books; the evidence may be flimsy, but there is a textual difference between both versions that suggets that Milán drew his text from another source: "et voi non me´l credete " (Verdelot) as opposed to "et voi non mi credete" (Milán). I am aware that this may be subjet to criticism, but to me it points to a more complex and rich transmission process than a mere A - B situation. Regarding Castiglione`s Cortegiano, we may imagine its possible impact, but I must stress that we have no evidence, no way of knowing how it might have influenced Milán, if it really did. We can postulate, using the same historic imagination (as Collingwood called it) such an influence upon any cultured member of the Spanish society of the time, with exactly the same possibility of demonstrating it for the large majority of them. I must insist that, having read both Cortesanos, find no evidence of Castiglione's counsel for a courtier in Miláns account of life at the Valencian court other than the dialogue form. There are no discussions on culture, arts, behaviour, etc. in Milán's book which at times reads more as a gossip column. Take, for example, an occasion when Milán tried to hide himself on top of a tree and when found cried "I am a fig". Hardly any Castiglione there. I agree with you in defining Miláns music as idiosyncratic. His own stamp, however, resides precisely in this approach, surely conditioned as well by his lack of formal training in music. While it may seem that I strive to defend him, what I think is that he had his own way, highly personal, with faults and virtues, of composing, unlike the vihuelists that followed him. To this end he did not rely on the imitation of other models, while nevertheless being aware and possibly influenced by them. I hope I have made my position clear now. Best wishes, Antonio On Monday, 6 January 2020, 10:16:07 GMT-6, Ron Andrico wrote: It seems clear that Don Luys Milan was consistent how he wished to be acknowledged, unlike Dowland, who apparently changed the spelling of his name every time he put pen to paper. The sorts of variants we see attached to recordings and articles seem to have more to do with the choices of modern authors and recording artists. But returning to the point, I am not certain, Antonio, whether you are steadfastly claiming that Luys Milan was a completely original composer and author and was entirely uninfluenced by
[LUTE] Re: Milan's name
Toponymical surnames are prevalent among Jews: Toledo, Rovira, Palma and Palmieri, Venezia etc etc. RT http://turovsky.org Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes. > On Jan 6, 2020, at 8:48 AM, Tristan von Neumann > wrote: > > >> On 06.01.20 05:50, howard posner wrote: >> And wouldn’t a Milanese refer to the city as Milano? >> > > I guess not. Back then it seems that all city names were somehow > transformed into the other languages. > > Even today it's probably considered fancy if you call it like the > natives, especially for German cities. > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKGoVefhtMQ > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Milan's name
The point is: where did they get them from? On Monday, 6 January 2020, 08:22:47 GMT-6, Jurgen Frenz wrote: Here is the collection of names for Señor Luys from the online Petrucci library, for what it's worth: = Alternative Names/Transliterations: Millán, Luys Milan, Luis de Milán, Lluís del Milà = Name in Other Languages: Luis de Milán, ルイス・デ・ミラン, Lluís del Milà, Милан, Луис де, لويس دي ميلان = Aliases: Luis de Milan, Luys de Milan, Luys de Milán, Lluís Milà, Lluis Mila, Luis Milan, Lluis Milà, Lluís Mila, Lluís de Milà, Luys Milán -- “Close your eyes. Fall in love. Stay there.” Jalāl ad-Dīn Muhammad Rumi To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Milan's name
duced his own idiosyncratic music, much like Tobias Hume in the realm of English ayres. I have not had a chance to correspond directly with Ignacio López Alemany, but he proposes that very same position: "López Alemany’s project aims to provide a comprehensive explanation of the cultural success of Italian meters in Spanish Renaissance poetry within the broader context of court performances. The study of this “new poetry,” as contemporaries labeled it, cannot be approached merely as a change of meters, but as part of a larger phenomenon. A paradigmatic change that resulted from the emergence of the early modern court culture in Spain, the particularities of the political context of the Habsburg Empire, and the renovation and repurposing of traditional Spanish poetry. The early modern vihuelists – musicians who played the vihuela, a Spanish stringed instrument – selected, modified, and musicalized many of those poems. They also modeled and wrote instructions on how to perform them within the aulic context, serving as active catalysts in the definition of the modern courtier and the role of poetry in the early modern period." RA __ From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of Antonio Corona Sent: Monday, January 6, 2020 5:41 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name A couple more: Juan Timoneda, Rosas de romances (1573): Don Luys Milan Bartolomé de Villalba y Estaña, El pelegrino curioso ... (1577): Don Luys Milan On Sunday, 5 January 2020, 19:24:07 GMT-6, Antonio Corona wrote: Dear friends, Luis Milán, Libro de motes (1535): Don Luys Milan Luis Milán, El Maestro (1535-36): Luys Milan Luis Milán, El cortesano (1561): Don Luys Milan Juan Fernández de Heredia, Las obras ... (1562): Don Luys Milan Gaspar Gil Polo, Diana enamorada (1564): Don Luys Milan Best wishes, Antonio On Sunday, 5 January 2020, 14:26:06 GMT-6, Joachim Lüdtke wrote: In El Cortesano it's Don Luys Milan … I am not a home for the next few days, but if anyone has the Facsimile of El Maestro published by the Sociedad de la Vihuela a few years ago, he or she could look into the commentary and see if there is any evidence mentioned for Milán, de Milán or similar. Best Joachim To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Milan's name
z Alemany’s project aims to provide a comprehensive explanation of the cultural success of Italian meters in Spanish Renaissance poetry within the broader context of court performances. The study of this “new poetry,” as contemporaries labeled it, cannot be approached merely as a change of meters, but as part of a larger phenomenon. A paradigmatic change that resulted from the emergence of the early modern court culture in Spain, the particularities of the political context of the Habsburg Empire, and the renovation and repurposing of traditional Spanish poetry. The early modern vihuelists – musicians who played the vihuela, a Spanish stringed instrument – selected, modified, and musicalized many of those poems. They also modeled and wrote instructions on how to perform them within the aulic context, serving as active catalysts in the definition of the modern courtier and the role of poetry in the early modern period." RA __ From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of Antonio Corona Sent: Monday, January 6, 2020 5:41 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name A couple more: Juan Timoneda, Rosas de romances (1573): Don Luys Milan Bartolomé de Villalba y Estaña, El pelegrino curioso ... (1577): Don Luys Milan On Sunday, 5 January 2020, 19:24:07 GMT-6, Antonio Corona wrote: Dear friends, Luis Milán, Libro de motes (1535): Don Luys Milan Luis Milán, El Maestro (1535-36): Luys Milan Luis Milán, El cortesano (1561): Don Luys Milan Juan Fernández de Heredia, Las obras ... (1562): Don Luys Milan Gaspar Gil Polo, Diana enamorada (1564): Don Luys Milan Best wishes, Antonio On Sunday, 5 January 2020, 14:26:06 GMT-6, Joachim Lüdtke wrote: In El Cortesano it's Don Luys Milan … I am not a home for the next few days, but if anyone has the Facsimile of El Maestro published by the Sociedad de la Vihuela a few years ago, he or she could look into the commentary and see if there is any evidence mentioned for Milán, de Milán or similar. Best Joachim To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Milan's name
Why is that? Let others do as they please. I should only be curious why they did so. Mathias __ Gesendet mit der [1]Telekom Mail App --- Original-Nachricht --- Von: r.turov...@gmail.com Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name Datum: 06.01.2020, 18:06 Uhr An: Mathias Rösel Cc: Lutelist Someone should send a cease order to Jordi Savall and all the other performers who put De Mila'n on their CDs! RT [2]http://turovsky.org Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes. > On Jan 6, 2020, at 11:08 AM, Mathias Rösel <[3]mathias.roe...@t-online.de> wrote: > >  Dear Antonio, > please rest assured, no more evidence is demanded. Don Luis Milan was > and is his name, and he's not from Milano. > They're making fun of it, or so is my impression. > Mathias > __ > > Gesendet mit der [1]Telekom Mail App > --- Original-Nachricht --- > Von: Jurgen Frenz > Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name > Datum: 06.01.2020, 15:17 Uhr > An: Antonio Corona > Cc: [4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > > Here is the collection of names for Seà ±or Luys from the online > Petrucci library, for what it's worth: > ï ¼ > Alternative Names/Transliterations: Millà ¡n, Luys Milan, Luis de > Milà ¡n, LluÃs del Milà > ï ¼ > Name in Other Languages: Luis de Milà ¡n, 㠫㠤㠹㠻ã㠻ã㠩ã ³, LluÃs del > Milà , Ãà ¸à »à °à ½, ÃÃà ¸à à ´à µ, ÃÃÃà ³ à ¯à ÃÃÃà §à > ï ¼ > Aliases: Luis de Milan, Luys de Milan, Luys de Milà ¡n, LluÃs Milà , > Lluis Mila, Luis Milan, Lluis Milà , LluÃs Mila, LluÃs de Milà , Luys > Milà ¡n > -- > "Close your eyes. Fall in love. Stay there." > JalÃl ad-Dà «n Muhammad Rumi > âââââââ Original Message âââââââ >> On Monday, January 6, 2020 6:41 AM, Antonio Corona >> <[2][5]abcor...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: >> A couple more: >> >> Juan Timoneda, Rosas de romances (1573): Don Luys Milan >> >> Bartolomà © de Villalba y Estaà ±a, El pelegrino curioso ... (1577): > Don Luys Milan >> >>> On Sunday, 5 January 2020, 19:24:07 GMT-6, Antonio Corona >> [3][6]abcor...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu wrote: >> >> Dear friends, >> >> Luis Milà ¡n, Libro de motes (1535): Don Luys Milan >> >> Luis Milà ¡n, El Maestro (1535-36): Luys Milan >> >> Luis Milà ¡n, El cortesano (1561): Don Luys Milan >> >> Juan Fernà ¡ndez de Heredia, Las obras ... (1562): Don Luys Milan >> >> Gaspar Gil Polo, Diana enamorada (1564): Don Luys Milan >> >> Best wishes, >> Antonio >> >>> On Sunday, 5 January 2020, 14:26:06 GMT-6, Joachim Là ¼dtke >> [4][7]jo.lued...@t-online.de wrote: >> >> In El Cortesano it's Don Luys Milan â ¦ I am not a home for the next > few days, but if anyone has the Facsimile of El Maestro published by > the Sociedad de la Vihuela a few years ago, he or she could look into > the commentary and see if there is any evidence mentioned for Milà ¡n, > de Milà ¡n or similar. >> >> Best >> >> Joachim >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> [5][8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > -- > > References > > 1. [9]https://kommunikationsdienste.t-online.de/redirects/email_app_androi d_sendmail_footer > 2. mailto:[10]abcor...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > 3. mailto:[11]abcor...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > 4. mailto:[12]jo.lued...@t-online.de > 5. [13]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > -- References 1. https://kommunikationsdienste.t-online.de/redirects/email_app_android_sendmail_footer 2. http://turovsky.org/ 3. mailto:mathias.roe...@t-online.de 4. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 5. mailto:abcor...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu 6. mailto:abcor...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu 7. mailto:jo.lued...@t-online.de 8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 9. https://kommunikationsdienste.t-online.de/redirects/email_app_android_sendmail_footer 10. mailto:abcor...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu 11. mailto:abcor...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu 12. mailto:jo.lued...@t-online.de 13. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Milan's name
Someone should send a cease order to Jordi Savall and all the other performers who put De Mila’n on their CDs! RT http://turovsky.org Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes. > On Jan 6, 2020, at 11:08 AM, Mathias Rösel wrote: > > Dear Antonio, > please rest assured, no more evidence is demanded. Don Luis Milan was > and is his name, and he's not from Milano. > They're making fun of it, or so is my impression. > Mathias > __ > > Gesendet mit der [1]Telekom Mail App > --- Original-Nachricht --- > Von: Jurgen Frenz > Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name > Datum: 06.01.2020, 15:17 Uhr > An: Antonio Corona > Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > > Here is the collection of names for Señor Luys from the online > Petrucci library, for what it's worth: > ï¼ > Alternative Names/Transliterations: Millán, Luys Milan, Luis de > Milán, LluÃs del Milà > ï¼ > Name in Other Languages: Luis de Milán, ã«ã¤ã¹ã»ãã»ãã©ã³, LluÃs del > Milà , Ðилан, ÐÑÐ¸Ñ Ð´Ðµ, ÙÙÙس د٠ÙÙÙا٠> ï¼ > Aliases: Luis de Milan, Luys de Milan, Luys de Milán, LluÃs Milà , > Lluis Mila, Luis Milan, Lluis Milà , LluÃs Mila, LluÃs de Milà , Luys > Milán > -- > "Close your eyes. Fall in love. Stay there." > JalÄl ad-DÄ«n Muhammad Rumi > âââ Original Message âââ >> On Monday, January 6, 2020 6:41 AM, Antonio Corona >> <[2]abcor...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: >> A couple more: >> >> Juan Timoneda, Rosas de romances (1573): Don Luys Milan >> >> Bartolomé de Villalba y Estaña, El pelegrino curioso ... (1577): > Don Luys Milan >> >>> On Sunday, 5 January 2020, 19:24:07 GMT-6, Antonio Corona >> [3]abcor...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu wrote: >> >> Dear friends, >> >> Luis Milán, Libro de motes (1535): Don Luys Milan >> >> Luis Milán, El Maestro (1535-36): Luys Milan >> >> Luis Milán, El cortesano (1561): Don Luys Milan >> >> Juan Fernández de Heredia, Las obras ... (1562): Don Luys Milan >> >> Gaspar Gil Polo, Diana enamorada (1564): Don Luys Milan >> >> Best wishes, >> Antonio >> >>> On Sunday, 5 January 2020, 14:26:06 GMT-6, Joachim Lüdtke >> [4]jo.lued...@t-online.de wrote: >> >> In El Cortesano it's Don Luys Milan ⦠I am not a home for the next > few days, but if anyone has the Facsimile of El Maestro published by > the Sociedad de la Vihuela a few years ago, he or she could look into > the commentary and see if there is any evidence mentioned for Milán, > de Milán or similar. >> >> Best >> >> Joachim >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > -- > > References > > 1. > https://kommunikationsdienste.t-online.de/redirects/email_app_android_sendmail_footer > 2. mailto:abcor...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > 3. mailto:abcor...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > 4. mailto:jo.lued...@t-online.de > 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
[LUTE] Re: Milan's name
It seems clear that Don Luys Milan was consistent how he wished to be acknowledged, unlike Dowland, who apparently changed the spelling of his name every time he put pen to paper. The sorts of variants we see attached to recordings and articles seem to have more to do with the choices of modern authors and recording artists. But returning to the point, I am not certain, Antonio, whether you are steadfastly claiming that Luys Milan was a completely original composer and author and was entirely uninfluenced by foreign models, or whether you are just saying that his setting of Madonna per voi ardo is distinct from the better-known version from Verdelot's Il primo libro de madrigali. Actually, the opening of Milan's setting does resemble that of Verdelot, and any well-connected musician of the time would have been aware of the immensely popular madrigals spewing forth from Italy (Verdelot was known to have worked in both Venice and Florence). And just like the popularity of Verdelot's madrigals, I cannot imagine Milan was not influenced by Castiglione when he produced his Cortesano some thirty years later. On to the larger question, I suggest that Milan was entirely influenced by the new currents of music, poetry and courtly custom emanating from the Italian states, as was the rest of Europe and the Holy Roman Empire. He just put his own stamp on those influences and produced his own idiosyncratic music, much like Tobias Hume in the realm of English ayres. I have not had a chance to correspond directly with Ignacio López Alemany, but he proposes that very same position: "López Alemanyâs project aims to provide a comprehensive explanation of the cultural success of Italian meters in Spanish Renaissance poetry within the broader context of court performances. The study of this ânew poetry,â as contemporaries labeled it, cannot be approached merely as a change of meters, but as part of a larger phenomenon. A paradigmatic change that resulted from the emergence of the early modern court culture in Spain, the particularities of the political context of the Habsburg Empire, and the renovation and repurposing of traditional Spanish poetry. The early modern vihuelists â musicians who played the vihuela, a Spanish stringed instrument â selected, modified, and musicalized many of those poems. They also modeled and wrote instructions on how to perform them within the aulic context, serving as active catalysts in the definition of the modern courtier and the role of poetry in the early modern period." RA __ From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of Antonio Corona Sent: Monday, January 6, 2020 5:41 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name A couple more: Juan Timoneda, Rosas de romances (1573): Don Luys Milan Bartolomé de Villalba y Estaña, El pelegrino curioso ... (1577): Don Luys Milan On Sunday, 5 January 2020, 19:24:07 GMT-6, Antonio Corona wrote: Dear friends, Luis Milán, Libro de motes (1535): Don Luys Milan Luis Milán, El Maestro (1535-36): Luys Milan Luis Milán, El cortesano (1561): Don Luys Milan Juan Fernández de Heredia, Las obras ... (1562): Don Luys Milan Gaspar Gil Polo, Diana enamorada (1564): Don Luys Milan Best wishes, Antonio On Sunday, 5 January 2020, 14:26:06 GMT-6, Joachim Lüdtke wrote: In El Cortesano it's Don Luys Milan ⦠I am not a home for the next few days, but if anyone has the Facsimile of El Maestro published by the Sociedad de la Vihuela a few years ago, he or she could look into the commentary and see if there is any evidence mentioned for Milán, de Milán or similar. Best Joachim To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Milan's name
Dear Antonio, please rest assured, no more evidence is demanded. Don Luis Milan was and is his name, and he's not from Milano. They're making fun of it, or so is my impression. Mathias __ Gesendet mit der [1]Telekom Mail App --- Original-Nachricht --- Von: Jurgen Frenz Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name Datum: 06.01.2020, 15:17 Uhr An: Antonio Corona Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Here is the collection of names for Señor Luys from the online Petrucci library, for what it's worth: ï¼ Alternative Names/Transliterations: Millán, Luys Milan, Luis de Milán, LluÃs del Milà ï¼ Name in Other Languages: Luis de Milán, ã«ã¤ã¹ã»ãã»ãã©ã³, LluÃs del Milà , Ãøûðý, ÃÃøà ôõ, ÃÃÃó ïà ÃÃÃçà ï¼ Aliases: Luis de Milan, Luys de Milan, Luys de Milán, LluÃs Milà , Lluis Mila, Luis Milan, Lluis Milà , LluÃs Mila, LluÃs de Milà , Luys Milán -- "Close your eyes. Fall in love. Stay there." JalÃl ad-Dën Muhammad Rumi âââââââ Original Message âââââââ On Monday, January 6, 2020 6:41 AM, Antonio Corona <[2]abcor...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: > A couple more: > > Juan Timoneda, Rosas de romances (1573): Don Luys Milan > > Bartolomé de Villalba y Estaña, El pelegrino curioso ... (1577): Don Luys Milan > > On Sunday, 5 January 2020, 19:24:07 GMT-6, Antonio Corona [3]abcor...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu wrote: > > Dear friends, > > Luis Milán, Libro de motes (1535): Don Luys Milan > > Luis Milán, El Maestro (1535-36): Luys Milan > > Luis Milán, El cortesano (1561): Don Luys Milan > > Juan Fernández de Heredia, Las obras ... (1562): Don Luys Milan > > Gaspar Gil Polo, Diana enamorada (1564): Don Luys Milan > > Best wishes, > Antonio > > On Sunday, 5 January 2020, 14:26:06 GMT-6, Joachim Lüdtke [4]jo.lued...@t-online.de wrote: > > In El Cortesano it's Don Luys Milan ⦠I am not a home for the next few days, but if anyone has the Facsimile of El Maestro published by the Sociedad de la Vihuela a few years ago, he or she could look into the commentary and see if there is any evidence mentioned for Milán, de Milán or similar. > > Best > > Joachim > > To get on or off this list see list information at > [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. https://kommunikationsdienste.t-online.de/redirects/email_app_android_sendmail_footer 2. mailto:abcor...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu 3. mailto:abcor...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu 4. mailto:jo.lued...@t-online.de 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Milan's name
Here is the collection of names for Señor Luys from the online Petrucci library, for what it's worth: = Alternative Names/Transliterations: Millán, Luys Milan, Luis de Milán, Lluís del Milà = Name in Other Languages: Luis de Milán, ルイス・デ・ミラン, Lluís del Milà, Милан, Луис де, لويس دي ميلان = Aliases: Luis de Milan, Luys de Milan, Luys de Milán, Lluís Milà, Lluis Mila, Luis Milan, Lluis Milà, Lluís Mila, Lluís de Milà, Luys Milán -- “Close your eyes. Fall in love. Stay there.” Jalāl ad-Dīn Muhammad Rumi ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ On Monday, January 6, 2020 6:41 AM, Antonio Corona wrote: > A couple more: > > Juan Timoneda, Rosas de romances (1573): Don Luys Milan > > Bartolomé de Villalba y Estaña, El pelegrino curioso ... (1577): Don Luys > Milan > > On Sunday, 5 January 2020, 19:24:07 GMT-6, Antonio Corona > abcor...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu wrote: > > Dear friends, > > Luis Milán, Libro de motes (1535): Don Luys Milan > > Luis Milán, El Maestro (1535-36): Luys Milan > > Luis Milán, El cortesano (1561): Don Luys Milan > > Juan Fernández de Heredia, Las obras ... (1562): Don Luys Milan > > Gaspar Gil Polo, Diana enamorada (1564): Don Luys Milan > > Best wishes, > Antonio > > On Sunday, 5 January 2020, 14:26:06 GMT-6, Joachim Lüdtke > jo.lued...@t-online.de wrote: > > In El Cortesano it's Don Luys Milan … I am not a home for the next few days, > but if anyone has the Facsimile of El Maestro published by the Sociedad de la > Vihuela a few years ago, he or she could look into the commentary and see if > there is any evidence mentioned for Milán, de Milán or similar. > > Best > > Joachim > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Milan's name
On 06.01.20 05:50, howard posner wrote: And wouldn’t a Milanese refer to the city as Milano? I guess not. Back then it seems that all city names were somehow transformed into the other languages. Even today it's probably considered fancy if you call it like the natives, especially for German cities. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKGoVefhtMQ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Milan's name
A couple more: Juan Timoneda, Rosas de romances (1573): Don Luys Milan Bartolomé de Villalba y Estaña, El pelegrino curioso ... (1577): Don Luys Milan On Sunday, 5 January 2020, 19:24:07 GMT-6, Antonio Corona wrote: Dear friends, Luis Milán, Libro de motes (1535): Don Luys Milan Luis Milán, El Maestro (1535-36): Luys Milan Luis Milán, El cortesano (1561): Don Luys Milan Juan Fernández de Heredia, Las obras ... (1562): Don Luys Milan Gaspar Gil Polo, Diana enamorada (1564): Don Luys Milan Best wishes, Antonio On Sunday, 5 January 2020, 14:26:06 GMT-6, Joachim Lüdtke wrote: In El Cortesano it's Don Luys Milan … I am not a home for the next few days, but if anyone has the Facsimile of El Maestro published by the Sociedad de la Vihuela a few years ago, he or she could look into the commentary and see if there is any evidence mentioned for Milán, de Milán or similar. Best Joachim To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Milan's name
On Jan 5, 2020, at 5:19 PM, Antonio Corona wrote: > Luis Milán, Libro de motes (1535): Don Luys Milan > > Luis Milán, El Maestro (1535-36): Luys Milan > > Luis Milán, El cortesano (1561): Don Luys Milan > > Juan Fernández de Heredia, Las obras ... (1562): Don Luys Milan > > Gaspar Gil Polo, Diana enamorada (1564): Don Luys Milan So we can be fairly sure he wasn’t trying to escape creditors. A couple of points relating to the underlying question: Even if Milan’s family name came from the Italian city, it doesn’t mean he he had any practical ties to Italy. I speak as someone whose name means “from Posen” (or Poznan, when, as now, the city is within Poland), and I couldn’t tell you the first thing about the place (or maybe I just did, and I couldn’t tell the second thing about it), and I think many of you would find my ignorance about all things Polish truly impressive if I chose to display it. For all I know my ancestors were there as recently as 1900. And wouldn’t a Milanese refer to the city as Milano? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Milan's name
Dear friends, Luis Milán, Libro de motes (1535): Don Luys Milan Luis Milán, El Maestro (1535-36): Luys Milan Luis Milán, El cortesano (1561): Don Luys Milan Juan Fernández de Heredia, Las obras ... (1562): Don Luys Milan Gaspar Gil Polo, Diana enamorada (1564): Don Luys Milan Best wishes, Antonio On Sunday, 5 January 2020, 14:26:06 GMT-6, Joachim Lüdtke wrote: In El Cortesano it's Don Luys Milan … I am not a home for the next few days, but if anyone has the Facsimile of El Maestro published by the Sociedad de la Vihuela a few years ago, he or she could look into the commentary and see if there is any evidence mentioned for Milán, de Milán or similar. Best Joachim To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html