[LUTE] Re: New recording by Lislevand
Danny, let me make myself clear. I find that quote at least as offensive as you do in both directions, autistic people and French baroque lute music. When my friend said it, I understood the word autistic in the sense of "world apart", "beyond recognition". In that sense, I'm suspicious that it was a widespread approach to French baroque lute music back then. I'm not critisizing pioneers: we're the dwarfs who stand on the giants' shoulders today, as we say it in German. What I'm critiszing, though, is an approach that still purports the same today. Mathias "Daniel Shoskes" schrieb: >OK, I've bought the CD so I'll pipe in. > >I think it was a good and interesting idea, but not particularly well >executed. Several of the movements became way too busy to appreciate >the musical line. Reminded me of the quote that "every good author >needs a good editor". > >Oh, and while we are displaying our feelings in this thread, Mathias, I >found the autistic comment (which I realize you didn't say but which >you quote) to be extremely offensive. Plenty of fine musicians on the >autistic spectrum (Glenn Gould being the most famous) whose >interpretations would attract rather than repel me from a musical >style. > >Danny >On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 11:53 AM, "Mathias Roesel" ><[1]mathias.roe...@t-online.de> wrote: > > Nicolas, > people are different, and that's a good thing. If you credit that > booklet with having guided you to the baroque lute, then that's a > good > thing, too. > > Perhaps you refer > > to the chapter "An update on performance practice", which is a bit > severe > > against the "historically authentic performance practice". > First, I have to confess that I gave the CD away after listening and > writing a review, because I didn't want to have it any more. So I > cannot > say to which particular chapter and verse I'd refer. > What I do well remember, though, is that according to that booklet, > 17th > century French culture was all about everybody sporting their > _decadence_ in terms of sophistication and elaborateness. Regarding > music, that would imply that just everything concerning metre, > tempo, > gesture, would be veiled beyond recognition. (And that's IMHO how > Lislevand interprets the music, indeed.) > I call that nonsense because I think that this concept suggests that > what Moliere depicted as a caricature of the precieux movement (in > his > comedy Les precieuses ridicules), was real life intended to be so. > > Unless you're talking about his recommendation to listen his > beautiful > > French music in good company, with a glass of wine and some tasty > cheese... > That's one more thing I wouldn't stand. I do like to eat and and > drink > in advance or after a recital, but def not while listening. Would be > like potato crisps in front of the TV set. Probably, I'm > old-fashioned. > I do not deny Lislevand's musicianship. He's a virtuoso. Yet because > of > his approach to this music, the pieces resulted in brilliant feats > beyond recognition. La belle Homicide is a courante, and I for one > should like to recognize a courante from the start. And if it's a > courante, I'd like to have it go on like a courante, in a steady > metre. > The whole things reminds me of a friend of mine who told me some > twenty > years ago (when I had no baroque lute yet) that French baroque lute > music is music by autistic composers intended for autistic audiences > (von Autisten fuer Autisten), so you don't need to understand > necessarily what's going on. Maybe it's a saraband, yes, but if it > sounds like a gavotte because of rubato or something else, hey, so > what? > Hey, enjoy those brilliant arpeggios, that's what it's all about! I > mean, that's caricature, isn't it. But it coined my prejudices about > French baroque lute music for the next 15 years. > OK, here I stop ranting. Hope you get the idea >8) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: New recording by Lislevand
OK, I've bought the CD so I'll pipe in. I think it was a good and interesting idea, but not particularly well executed. Several of the movements became way too busy to appreciate the musical line. Reminded me of the quote that "every good author needs a good editor". Oh, and while we are displaying our feelings in this thread, Mathias, I found the autistic comment (which I realize you didn't say but which you quote) to be extremely offensive. Plenty of fine musicians on the autistic spectrum (Glenn Gould being the most famous) whose interpretations would attract rather than repel me from a musical style. Danny On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 11:53 AM, "Mathias Roesel" <[1]mathias.roe...@t-online.de> wrote: Nicolas, people are different, and that's a good thing. If you credit that booklet with having guided you to the baroque lute, then that's a good thing, too. > Perhaps you refer > to the chapter "An update on performance practice", which is a bit severe > against the "historically authentic performance practice". First, I have to confess that I gave the CD away after listening and writing a review, because I didn't want to have it any more. So I cannot say to which particular chapter and verse I'd refer. What I do well remember, though, is that according to that booklet, 17th century French culture was all about everybody sporting their _decadence_ in terms of sophistication and elaborateness. Regarding music, that would imply that just everything concerning metre, tempo, gesture, would be veiled beyond recognition. (And that's IMHO how Lislevand interprets the music, indeed.) I call that nonsense because I think that this concept suggests that what Moliere depicted as a caricature of the precieux movement (in his comedy Les precieuses ridicules), was real life intended to be so. > Unless you're talking about his recommendation to listen his beautiful > French music in good company, with a glass of wine and some tasty cheese... That's one more thing I wouldn't stand. I do like to eat and and drink in advance or after a recital, but def not while listening. Would be like potato crisps in front of the TV set. Probably, I'm old-fashioned. I do not deny Lislevand's musicianship. He's a virtuoso. Yet because of his approach to this music, the pieces resulted in brilliant feats beyond recognition. La belle Homicide is a courante, and I for one should like to recognize a courante from the start. And if it's a courante, I'd like to have it go on like a courante, in a steady metre. The whole things reminds me of a friend of mine who told me some twenty years ago (when I had no baroque lute yet) that French baroque lute music is music by autistic composers intended for autistic audiences (von Autisten fuer Autisten), so you don't need to understand necessarily what's going on. Maybe it's a saraband, yes, but if it sounds like a gavotte because of rubato or something else, hey, so what? Hey, enjoy those brilliant arpeggios, that's what it's all about! I mean, that's caricature, isn't it. But it coined my prejudices about French baroque lute music for the next 15 years. OK, here I stop ranting. Hope you get the idea >8) -- Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:mathias.roe...@t-online.de 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: New recording by Lislevand
Nicolás, people are different, and that's a good thing. If you credit that booklet with having guided you to the baroque lute, then that's a good thing, too. > Perhaps you refer > to the chapter "An update on performance practice", which is a bit severe > against the "historically authentic performance practice". First, I have to confess that I gave the CD away after listening and writing a review, because I didn't want to have it any more. So I cannot say to which particular chapter and verse I'd refer. What I do well remember, though, is that according to that booklet, 17th century French culture was all about everybody sporting their _decadence_ in terms of sophistication and elaborateness. Regarding music, that would imply that just everything concerning metre, tempo, gesture, would be veiled beyond recognition. (And that's IMHO how Lislevand interprets the music, indeed.) I call that nonsense because I think that this concept suggests that what Moliere depicted as a caricature of the précieux movement (in his comedy Les précieuses ridicules), was real life intended to be so. > Unless you're talking about his recommendation to listen his beautiful > French music in good company, with a glass of wine and some tasty cheese... That's one more thing I wouldn't stand. I do like to eat and and drink in advance or after a recital, but def not while listening. Would be like potato crisps in front of the TV set. Probably, I'm old-fashioned. I do not deny Lislevand's musicianship. He's a virtuoso. Yet because of his approach to this music, the pieces resulted in brilliant feats beyond recognition. La belle Homicide is a courante, and I for one should like to recognize a courante from the start. And if it's a courante, I'd like to have it go on like a courante, in a steady metre. The whole things reminds me of a friend of mine who told me some twenty years ago (when I had no baroque lute yet) that French baroque lute music is music by autistic composers intended for autistic audiences (von Autisten fuer Autisten), so you don't need to understand necessarily what's going on. Maybe it's a saraband, yes, but if it sounds like a gavotte because of rubato or something else, hey, so what? Hey, enjoy those brilliant arpeggios, that's what it's all about! I mean, that's caricature, isn't it. But it coined my prejudices about French baroque lute music for the next 15 years. OK, here I stop ranting. Hope you get the idea >8) -- Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: New recording by Lislevand
The problem lies elsewhere: A number of individuals in Savall's close circle (Lislevand, Smith et al.) are closet-composers (including Savall himself). So they are simply looking for an outlet of their aristophilia. RT - Original Message - From: "Nicolás Valencia" To: Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 6:49 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: New recording by Lislevand Diego, IMO he's trying to do something easy to sell. This is quite unfair, I'm sure he would sell a full Dowland or Weiss CD much easier (I'd buy it for sure!). May be paople watching renaissance telefilms I suspect his performance is based on more serious grounds. We say: se mio nonno aveva le ruote, io ero una biciletta. Non ho capito cosa è successo al tuo nonno... This is a nonsense: untill the XX century each period is contemporary with its music. And this sentence means nothing! Something tells me Lislevand is being really "contemporary" looking for a XXI century approach to early music based on the past legacy. Similarly, Bacheler was really "contemporary" when composing the variations on "La jeune fillette" instead of playing it "as it is". Mathias, Quite similar to the nonsense in his Belle Homicide booklet. Funny, I loved that booklet. Actually I started playing baroque lute because of what Lislevand says and plays in "La belle homicide". Perhaps you refer to the chapter "An update on performance practice", which is a bit severe against the "historically authentic performance practice". However, you can agree or disagree with it, but there's no reason to call it "nonsense". Unless you're talking about his recommendation to listen his beautiful French music in good company, with a glass of wine and some tasty cheese... and not putting the volume down too low! (I pledge guilty: I've done it sometimes and don't regret it). Nicolás To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: New recording by Lislevand
Diego, > IMO he's trying to do something easy to sell. This is quite unfair, I'm sure he would sell a full Dowland or Weiss CD much easier (I'd buy it for sure!). > May be paople watching renaissance telefilms I suspect his performance is based on more serious grounds. > We say: se mio nonno aveva le ruote, io ero una biciletta. Non ho capito cosa è successo al tuo nonno... > This is a nonsense: untill the XX century each period is contemporary with > its music. > And this sentence means nothing! Something tells me Lislevand is being really "contemporary" looking for a XXI century approach to early music based on the past legacy. Similarly, Bacheler was really "contemporary" when composing the variations on "La jeune fillette" instead of playing it "as it is". Mathias, >Quite similar to the nonsense in his Belle Homicide booklet. Funny, I loved that booklet. Actually I started playing baroque lute because of what Lislevand says and plays in "La belle homicide". Perhaps you refer to the chapter "An update on performance practice", which is a bit severe against the "historically authentic performance practice". However, you can agree or disagree with it, but there's no reason to call it "nonsense". Unless you're talking about his recommendation to listen his beautiful French music in good company, with a glass of wine and some tasty cheese... and not putting the volume down too low! (I pledge guilty: I've done it sometimes and don't regret it). Nicolás To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: New recording by Lislevand
Quite similar to the nonsense in his Belle Homicide booklet. Mathias schrieb: > > > IMO he's trying to do something interesting, > IMO he's trying to do something easy to sell. > > > >In his own words: "This recording is all about the Italian renaissance, > That's ok, at least for the composers. > > > how it understood itself, > Sciencefiction ... > > >how we understand it today > May be paople watching renaissance telefilms; a lot of other understand a > little more... > > > and how we would have understood it if we had been contemporary with it > We say: se mio nonno aveva le ruote, io ero una biciletta. > If my grandfather had the wheels, I'm a bike. > > > >because no other period in European music's > >history was as contemporary with itself as was the renaissance". > > This is a nonsense: untill the XX century each period is contemporary with > its music. > And this sentence means nothing! > > Tutto fumo!! > > Diego To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: New recording by Lislevand
IMO he's trying to do something interesting, IMO he's trying to do something easy to sell. In his own words: "This recording is all about the Italian renaissance, That's ok, at least for the composers. how it understood itself, Sciencefiction ... how we understand it today May be paople watching renaissance telefilms; a lot of other understand a little more... and how we would have understood it if we had been contemporary with it We say: se mio nonno aveva le ruote, io ero una biciletta. If my grandfather had the wheels, I'm a bike. because no other period in European music's history was as contemporary with itself as was the renaissance". This is a nonsense: untill the XX century each period is contemporary with its music. And this sentence means nothing! Tutto fumo!! Diego __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4690 (20091215) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: New recording by Lislevand
I don't think Lislevand's recording is kitsch, which implies a tasteless music. Perhaps it sounds sometimes "New Age", but it's well performed with interesting arrangements. Of course it can shock some conservative ears, but it's a matter of taste. IMO he's trying to do something interesting, looking for new ways in "old" music performance. In his own words: "This recording is all about the Italian renaissance, how it understood itself, how we understand it today and how we would have understood it if we had been contemporary with it, because no other period in European musics history was as contemporary with itself as was the renaissance". Full interview here: http://www.tokafi.com/news/rolf-lislevand-diminuito-and-logic-electric-guita rs/ BTW, I love his "pure" music performances as well (like Bach's "Intavolatura" and "La belle homicide"), and I confess "Diminuito" and "Nuove Musiche" are not my favorite ones, but I highly respect his artistic qualities, which are not "kitsch" at all. Nicolás -Mensaje original- De: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] En nombre de Eugene C. Braig IV Enviado el: lunes, 14 de diciembre de 2009 16:31 Para: 'Andreas Schroth'; 'Edward Martin' CC: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Asunto: [LUTE] Re: New recording by Lislevand Alas, I have to agree. ...And I am a fan of Lislevand's playing. This seems a pretty widespread recent trend: extended "jams" often based upon solo tablatures and involving relatively large continuo ensembles (recent efforts by Ensemble Kapsberger, the Harp Consort, Teatro Lirico, etc.). Often it's fun, and theses discs often include a real gem or few. By the end of whichever, I often find myself missing hearing whatever was simply written. Eugene > -Original Message- > From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On > Behalf Of Andreas Schroth > Sent: Sunday, December 13, 2009 1:13 PM > To: Edward Martin > Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Subject: [LUTE] Re: New recording by Lislevand > > I must confess, three quarters of the recording are for my ears Kitsch, > especially the Capirola & Mudarra with their whispering accompaniment. > Naturally Lislevands playing and tone are superb. But I dislike the > enlargement or magnification or blow-up of our old decent lutepices. > > Andreas > > There is a new CD by Rolf Lislevand& his group: > > > > Diminuito > > ECN New Series B0013355-02 > > > > There are many similarities with his Nuove Musiche recording... same > > group, same label, but a different theme. This theme is the Italian > > renaissance, and it contains works of Capirola, Francesco, Dalza, > > Terzi, Ortiz, Mudarra, among others. > > > > As expected, the performance is first rate, with fabulous musicality, > > creativity, ingenuity and thought. It is a great listening > > experience, to those who admire Lislevand's work. Count me as one of > them. > > > > it is available from most musical outlets, such as Amazon > > http://www.amazon.com/Diminuito-Rolf- > Lislevand/dp/B002JVHEGG/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1259692768&sr=1-1 > > > > ed > > > > > > > > > > > > Edward Martin > > 2817 East 2nd Street > > Duluth, Minnesota 55812 > > e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com > > voice: (218) 728-1202 > > http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name > > http://www.myspace.com/edslute > > > > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > >
[LUTE] Re: New recording by Lislevand
Alas, I have to agree. ...And I am a fan of Lislevand's playing. This seems a pretty widespread recent trend: extended "jams" often based upon solo tablatures and involving relatively large continuo ensembles (recent efforts by Ensemble Kapsberger, the Harp Consort, Teatro Lirico, etc.). Often it's fun, and theses discs often include a real gem or few. By the end of whichever, I often find myself missing hearing whatever was simply written. Eugene > -Original Message- > From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On > Behalf Of Andreas Schroth > Sent: Sunday, December 13, 2009 1:13 PM > To: Edward Martin > Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Subject: [LUTE] Re: New recording by Lislevand > > I must confess, three quarters of the recording are for my ears Kitsch, > especially the Capirola & Mudarra with their whispering accompaniment. > Naturally Lislevands playing and tone are superb. But I dislike the > enlargement or magnification or blow-up of our old decent lutepices. > > Andreas > > There is a new CD by Rolf Lislevand& his group: > > > > Diminuito > > ECN New Series B0013355-02 > > > > There are many similarities with his Nuove Musiche recording... same > > group, same label, but a different theme. This theme is the Italian > > renaissance, and it contains works of Capirola, Francesco, Dalza, > > Terzi, Ortiz, Mudarra, among others. > > > > As expected, the performance is first rate, with fabulous musicality, > > creativity, ingenuity and thought. It is a great listening > > experience, to those who admire Lislevand's work. Count me as one of > them. > > > > it is available from most musical outlets, such as Amazon > > http://www.amazon.com/Diminuito-Rolf- > Lislevand/dp/B002JVHEGG/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1259692768&sr=1-1 > > > > ed > > > > > > > > > > > > Edward Martin > > 2817 East 2nd Street > > Duluth, Minnesota 55812 > > e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com > > voice: (218) 728-1202 > > http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name > > http://www.myspace.com/edslute > > > > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > >
[LUTE] Re: New recording by Lislevand
I agree, andreas. For me his "vestiva i colli" version is really awfully. In contrast arianna savall´s interpretation of "vestiva i colli" on the cd "vergine bella" with il desidrerio is much better. Greetings Wolfgang -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von Andreas Schroth Gesendet: Sonntag, 13. Dezember 2009 19:13 An: Edward Martin Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Betreff: [LUTE] Re: New recording by Lislevand I must confess, three quarters of the recording are for my ears Kitsch, especially the Capirola & Mudarra with their whispering accompaniment. Naturally Lislevands playing and tone are superb. But I dislike the enlargement or magnification or blow-up of our old decent lutepices. Andreas > There is a new CD by Rolf Lislevand& his group: > > Diminuito > ECN New Series B0013355-02 > > There are many similarities with his Nuove Musiche recording... same > group, same label, but a different theme. This theme is the Italian > renaissance, and it contains works of Capirola, Francesco, Dalza, > Terzi, Ortiz, Mudarra, among others. > > As expected, the performance is first rate, with fabulous musicality, > creativity, ingenuity and thought. It is a great listening > experience, to those who admire Lislevand's work. Count me as one of > them. > > it is available from most musical outlets, such as Amazon > http://www.amazon.com/Diminuito-Rolf-Lislevand/dp/B002JVHEGG/ref=sr_1_ > 1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1259692768&sr=1-1 > > ed > > > > > > Edward Martin > 2817 East 2nd Street > Duluth, Minnesota 55812 > e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com > voice: (218) 728-1202 > http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name > http://www.myspace.com/edslute > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >
[LUTE] Re: New recording by Lislevand
I must confess, three quarters of the recording are for my ears Kitsch, especially the Capirola & Mudarra with their whispering accompaniment. Naturally Lislevands playing and tone are superb. But I dislike the enlargement or magnification or blow-up of our old decent lutepices. Andreas There is a new CD by Rolf Lislevand& his group: Diminuito ECN New Series B0013355-02 There are many similarities with his Nuove Musiche recording... same group, same label, but a different theme. This theme is the Italian renaissance, and it contains works of Capirola, Francesco, Dalza, Terzi, Ortiz, Mudarra, among others. As expected, the performance is first rate, with fabulous musicality, creativity, ingenuity and thought. It is a great listening experience, to those who admire Lislevand's work. Count me as one of them. it is available from most musical outlets, such as Amazon http://www.amazon.com/Diminuito-Rolf-Lislevand/dp/B002JVHEGG/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1259692768&sr=1-1 ed Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com voice: (218) 728-1202 http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name http://www.myspace.com/edslute To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
