[LUTE] Re: Newsidler and plucking or not?
Just in case someone doesn't have the Elslein tabulatures, here you'll find the facsimile of my 1980's handwriting in French(!) tabulature by three Hanses: Judenkunig, Newsidler and also Gerle: http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/wikla/mus/10_courseLute/ElsleinX3.pdf All the best, Arto On 01/02/13 20:59, Arto Wikla wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pakfWwq8wokfeature=youtu.be http://vimeo.com/58727395 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Newsidler and plucking or not?
On Feb 2, 2013, at 12:03 PM, Arto Wikla wi...@cs.helsinki.fi wrote: Just in case someone doesn't have the Elslein tabulatures, here you'll find the facsimile of my 1980's handwriting in French(!) tabulature by three Hanses: Judenkunig, Newsidler and also Gerle: I hadn't seen the Gerle setting before. All three of them seem to have extra notes in the first syllable of Elslein, a way making it swell into the second syllable. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Newsidler and plucking or not?
if memory serves, we have been talking about one interesting question of interpreting German tabulature: when (especially) Hans Newsidler repeated a short note after longer one, did he really mean repeating the pluck, or did he thus just in this way express a note with a dot? Did he mean just a tie? An example (translated to French tabulature) (use monospace!): |\ |\\ |\ || | || | __a_a__a__c__d___ _|__| _|__bb__| __c__|__cc__| ... _|__| _|__| So, should or shouldn't the top string third a be plucked or not? I vote that you should not repeat the pluck! If you look at the final clause (5 t 5), you will see that Newsidler knew and wrote held notes. I take that as an argument against the notion that he wrote a note but didn't mean it to be played but to be held. Another argument might be that if you omit the repeated note you can hardly explain why you hit the following treble note with the index, and that is an important matter in his method. So I vote for playing the repeated note. Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Newsidler and plucking or not?
Thank you Mathias, interesting and important comments! What makes me prefer my choice is that many, many years ago I happened to sang Elslein in a small group, and the not repeating way resembles so much better to the sound of the that Lied than the other alternative. Arto On 01/02/13 21:32, Mathias Rösel wrote: If you look at the final clause (5 t 5), you will see that Newsidler knew and wrote held notes. I take that as an argument against the notion that he wrote a note but didn't mean it to be played but to be held. Another argument might be that if you omit the repeated note you can hardly explain why you hit the following treble note with the index, and that is an important matter in his method. So I vote for playing the repeated note. Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Newsidler and plucking or not?
On Feb 1, 2013, at 12:39 PM, Arto Wikla wi...@cs.helsinki.fi wrote: What makes me prefer my choice is that many, many years ago I happened to sang Elslein in a small group, and the not repeating way resembles so much better to the sound of the that Lied than the other alternative. and everyone Newsidler knew would have been familiar with the song -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Newsidler and plucking or not?
Take a look (take a hear (can you say so in English?)) I think we anglophones might say give (it) a listen. Leonard On 2/1/13 1:59 PM, Arto Wikla wi...@cs.helsinki.fi wrote: Dear lutenists, if memory serves, we have been talking about one interesting question of interpreting German tabulature: when (especially) Hans Newsidler repeated a short note after longer one, did he really mean repeating the pluck, or did he thus just in this way express a note with a dot? Did he mean just a tie? An example (translated to French tabulature) (use monospace!): |\ |\\ |\ || | || | __a_a__a__c__d___ _|__| _|__bb__| __c__|__cc__| ... _|__| _|__| So, should or shouldn't the top string third a be plucked or not? I vote that you should not repeat the pluck! I played Hans' intabulation of Ludvig Senfl's famous Lied Elslein liebstes Elslein mein. I made two versions: First literally as it is written, second as I think it is meant to be played. The piece becomes much more vocal-like that way, and it also feels much more natural. Take a look (take a hear (can you say so in English?)): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pakfWwq8wokfeature=youtu.be http://vimeo.com/58727395 What do you vote? All the best, Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Newsidler and plucking or not?
Arto, You see the long-and-two-shorts all over Spinacino, too. For example, in the Sidedero in the Odhecaton uses a dotted figure while Spinacino repeated uses it in the way you describe in Newsidler (we find the same figures more often dotted rhythms in the Capirola Sidedero, however). Interestingly, comparing the Tsat een meskin between the Odhecaton and the Segovia ms. Petrucci uses the dotted figure while the Segovia usually uses the long note and two shorts. Since both are mensural sources I'm not sure we can attribute it to being a lute phenomenon unless we consider Segovia a possible lute source. Sean On Feb 1, 2013, at 10:59 AM, Arto Wikla wrote: Dear lutenists, if memory serves, we have been talking about one interesting question of interpreting German tabulature: when (especially) Hans Newsidler repeated a short note after longer one, did he really mean repeating the pluck, or did he thus just in this way express a note with a dot? Did he mean just a tie? An example (translated to French tabulature) (use monospace!): |\ |\\ |\ || | || | __a_a__a__c__d___ _|__| _|__bb__| __c__|__cc__| ... _|__| _|__| So, should or shouldn't the top string third a be plucked or not? I vote that you should not repeat the pluck! I played Hans' intabulation of Ludvig Senfl's famous Lied Elslein liebstes Elslein mein. I made two versions: First literally as it is written, second as I think it is meant to be played. The piece becomes much more vocal-like that way, and it also feels much more natural. Take a look (take a hear (can you say so in English?)): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pakfWwq8wokfeature=youtu.be http://vimeo.com/58727395 What do you vote? All the best, Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Newsidler and plucking or not?
Dear Sean and All, It's very interesting that you see the long and two shorts thing in a mensural source, because apart from anything else there are no barlines. I always wondered whether the lute notation was a consequence of putting in barlines every two minims and the consequent difficulty of notating a note tied across a barline. But of course the lute sources have the same thing within a bar as well, so that can't be the reason. I have also wondered whether Newsidler felt that dotted notes would be hard for beginners to understand, but he does use them sometimes, so that can't be the reason either. Like Arto, I'm always tempted to restore the dot - sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. I've even been known to play the repeated note very softly, which gives almost the same effect as restoring the dot, while conforming to the original notation. With regard to Newsidler's techniques, there are two things I find particularly interesting: 1. Even when he intabulates a piece in four or more parts, he always reduces it to three, sometimes very cleverly keeping the interesting bits by swapping a line from part to part. And he never writes a chord of more than three notes except at a final chord, and even then it's on adjacent courses. I conclude that he never used the RH ring finger. 2. I can't find any evidence of a barré in his works, suggesting that he never did it (unlike Melchior!). Best wishes, Martin On 02/02/2013 03:59, Sean Smith wrote: Arto, You see the long-and-two-shorts all over Spinacino, too. For example, in the Sidedero in the Odhecaton uses a dotted figure while Spinacino repeated uses it in the way you describe in Newsidler (we find the same figures more often dotted rhythms in the Capirola Sidedero, however). Interestingly, comparing the Tsat een meskin between the Odhecaton and the Segovia ms. Petrucci uses the dotted figure while the Segovia usually uses the long note and two shorts. Since both are mensural sources I'm not sure we can attribute it to being a lute phenomenon unless we consider Segovia a possible lute source. Sean On Feb 1, 2013, at 10:59 AM, Arto Wikla wrote: Dear lutenists, if memory serves, we have been talking about one interesting question of interpreting German tabulature: when (especially) Hans Newsidler repeated a short note after longer one, did he really mean repeating the pluck, or did he thus just in this way express a note with a dot? Did he mean just a tie? An example (translated to French tabulature) (use monospace!): |\ |\\ |\ || | || | __a_a__a__c__d___ _|__| _|__bb__| __c__|__cc__| ... _|__| _|__| So, should or shouldn't the top string third a be plucked or not? I vote that you should not repeat the pluck! I played Hans' intabulation of Ludvig Senfl's famous Lied Elslein liebstes Elslein mein. I made two versions: First literally as it is written, second as I think it is meant to be played. The piece becomes much more vocal-like that way, and it also feels much more natural. Take a look (take a hear (can you say so in English?)): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pakfWwq8wokfeature=youtu.be http://vimeo.com/58727395 What do you vote? All the best, Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
