[LUTE] Re: Q on odd tunings for plucked instruments
A belated reply to this theme. Two B strings together on a clarsach (knee) harp? This message comes from a friend who performs on various instruments including this one... We are of the opinion that the earliest picture of an undeniably wire strung harp referred to in writing associated with the picture as an Irish (or Scots) harp, much later to be known as clarsach, is from Michael Praetorious, early 1600's. He would, therefore, dispute the term 'medieval'. Even until Haydn the formal orchestra had no standardized tuning for string instruments so it is pointless to try and impose such an idea on the renaissance let alone medieval. The note B relative to A being 440 hertz did not occur in history until Edwardian times in the early 20th century so to call a note B earlier than this seems pointless. In Scotland folk music was still being written as 'hyang hyang hinne hinne hyang hyang' to mimic the sound of the bagpipes or flutes even into the 18th century. This is not to say that more educated lowlanders could not write music as we write it today. However, the concept of lowlanders being Scots and not just English north of the border only starts to become a concept at this time. As for the Irish before the 19th century well. it's just 'beyond the pale'! In other words if people wish to have academic discussions with each other about medieval folk music then that's fine, just don't attach too much weight to it, that's all. No mention here of the clarsach having `two-sisters' (matching strings), being the main reason I asked for clarification. If this occurred, my guess is that it was a `midway' indication where both hands meet during play. But surely there is often `cross-over'? Having two strings sounding the same would affect the melody at that point if they were not being plucked together? But we must return to topic soon. Sorry. I think we already know that music notes were not defined for tuning the lute. Best Wishes Ron (UK) -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Q on odd tunings for plucked instruments
Love that, although tough to prove. d The note B relative to A being 440 hertz did not occur in history until Edwardian times To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Q on odd tunings for plucked instruments
Just a thought -- on the shamisen proper, twang and rattle are pretty much what you're going for. Ed Durbrow edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp 12/28/2009 10:10 AM On Dec 26, 2009, at 5:49 PM, David van Ooijen wrote: For my shamisen I have some silk strings - nylon too, big difference! - but never tried these on a lute. I have. [1]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/shamisenstring.html They were a bit twangy. or rattle-ly. And bright yellow. I enquired if they were pure silk and that is what they said. I think they might work if you could get just the right gage. This was quite a while ago and I didn't research it very well. I think I only bought two strings. Someday, maybe I'll get into investigating it more and attach a weight to one and put it across a guitar and see what kind of pitch comes out for what string length. Problem is I only have 2 and 3 kg dumbells. (As you can see if you scroll down the webpage) Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan [2]edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp [3]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ -- References 1. [1]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/shamisenstring.html 2. mailto:edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp 3. [2]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/shamisenstring.html 2. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute
[LUTE] Re: Q on odd tunings for plucked instruments
On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 2:06 PM, Christopher Stetson cstet...@smith.edu wrote: Just a thought -- on the shamisen proper, twang and rattle are pretty much what you're going for. It's called sawari ans is indeed what what you're going for. I quote from my own website: The nut is made in such a way that the lowest string buzzes against the neck. Modern shamisen are sometimes fitted with a device to regulate this. This buzzing noise was probably introduced by the biwa players, who wanted to imitate the rattling sound of the low tension strings on their instruments. It is called sawari and is a means of expression in Japanese music. When playing the strings, the bachi also hits the top of the shamisen with considerable force, and this rhythmic whacking, together with the sawari, gives the shamisen its raw and uncultivated sound. David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Q on odd tunings for plucked instruments
The note B relative to A being 440 hertz did not occur in history until Edwardian times in the early 20th century so to call a note B earlier than this seems pointless. ?!? dont see what 440 has to do with anything, this is a discussion of nominal pitch, not actual. are you trying to say that b and b-flat were not considered different pitches? are you saying that b-quadratus is unknown prior to the edwardian era? Keyboard tablature distinguishes B-quadratus from b-rotundus(flat) and has separate symbols for each I have seen many 15 and 16c keyboards with the modern set of notes, including all the accidentals. I have sung 14c music that is fully chromatic and is often used to challenge vocalists sight reading skills (Solage rondeau Fumeux fume par fumee). Ron, I think you had better go read some Morley. -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Q on odd tunings for plucked instruments
We are of the opinion that the earliest picture of an undeniably wire strung harp referred to in writing associated with the picture as an Irish (or Scots) harp, much later to be known as clarsach, is from Michael Praetorious, early 1600's. I dont have access to Roslyn Renches book as I write this, it is at home. There are a few clarsarchs surviving from before 1600, at least 1 century prior. I suspect some iconographic evidence for that distinct shape of harp do exist, and contrast with the continental form which is more acutely angled and has a thiner soundbox. BTW, who is this 'We'? You mucking about with royalty? Even until Haydn the formal orchestra had no standardized tuning for string instruments well, yes, no absolute pitch reference existed, but what of it? this does not prevent B-quadratus from being distinguished from b-rotundus, nor did it prevent the development of different practical ways of tempering the relative tones. -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Q on odd tunings for plucked instruments
I can't answer the original question, but I do want to a respond to a comment about MusicXML in the original post: MusicXML records the fret and the pitch; but not the tuning (its a big specification, might have missed that). MusicXML does indeed record the tuning for tablature staves. This is done with the staff-tuning element. An example of specifying alternate tuning for guitar tablature is available in the Jonatha Brooke example file at: http://www.recordare.com/xml/samples.html#Contributed Here's the representation of the alternate guitar tablature tuning from that file. Line 1 is the line at the bottom of the tablature staff. Octave 4 is the octave that starts with middle C: staff-details staff-lines6/staff-lines staff-tuning line=1 tuning-stepD/tuning-step tuning-octave2/tuning-octave /staff-tuning staff-tuning line=2 tuning-stepA/tuning-step tuning-octave2/tuning-octave /staff-tuning staff-tuning line=3 tuning-stepD/tuning-step tuning-octave3/tuning-octave /staff-tuning staff-tuning line=4 tuning-stepG/tuning-step tuning-octave3/tuning-octave /staff-tuning staff-tuning line=5 tuning-stepB/tuning-step tuning-octave3/tuning-octave /staff-tuning staff-tuning line=6 tuning-stepD/tuning-step tuning-octave4/tuning-octave /staff-tuning capo4/capo /staff-details The show-frets attribute of the staff-details element also allows for frets to be represented using either letters or numbers. This was included specifically to help represent lute tablature. If you have comments or suggestions on how MusicXML might better support lute tablature in the future, please feel free to discuss this on the MusicXML discussion mailing list. Signup is available at: http://www.recordare.com/lists#MusicXML Best regards, Michael Good Recordare LLC www.recordare.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Q on odd tunings for plucked instruments
On Dec 26, 2009, at 5:49 PM, David van Ooijen wrote: For my shamisen I have some silk strings - nylon too, big difference! - but never tried these on a lute. I have. [1]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/shamisenstring.html They were a bit twangy. or rattle-ly. And bright yellow. I enquired if they were pure silk and that is what they said. I think they might work if you could get just the right gage. This was quite a while ago and I didn't research it very well. I think I only bought two strings. Someday, maybe I'll get into investigating it more and attach a weight to one and put it across a guitar and see what kind of pitch comes out for what string length. Problem is I only have 2 and 3 kg dumbells. (As you can see if you scroll down the webpage) Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan [2]edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp [3]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ -- References 1. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/shamisenstring.html 2. mailto:edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp 3. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Q on odd tunings for plucked instruments
On Sat, Dec 26, 2009 at 7:18 AM, David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net wrote: David--I'm sorry if I asked you this before, but can the silk koto strings be adapted for lute trebles? Koto strings are too thick, I should think. Perhaps one can get a thinner set, but that would still be too thick. It's one size fits all, as the movable bridges decide the pitch. Shamisen (three strings) uses thinner gauges. These strings are stretched very easily, quite the opposite from gut, and are used at different pitches over quite a range. One even has to tune to a different tuning during a piece quite frequently. For my shamisen I have some silk strings - nylon too, big difference! - but never tried these on a lute. California has a lively community of koto and shamisen players, it shouldn't be too difficult to find some thinner gauges, silk strings for shamisen to try out on your mandolin or lute. David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Q on odd tunings for plucked instruments
David: You would do well to contact Alexander Rakov, the silk string specialist who contributes regularly to this list. I've tried his silk strings on my six-course lute and found the trebles to be, well, silky and also clear and strong. They are remarkably consistent and the basses far more responsive than gut basses I have used. Best wishes, Ron Andrico www.mignarda.com Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2009 09:49:26 +0100 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: davidvanooi...@gmail.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: Q on odd tunings for plucked instruments On Sat, Dec 26, 2009 at 7:18 AM, David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net wrote: David--I'm sorry if I asked you this before, but can the silk koto strings be adapted for lute trebles? Koto strings are too thick, I should think. Perhaps one can get a thinner set, but that would still be too thick. It's one size fits all, as the movable bridges decide the pitch. Shamisen (three strings) uses thinner gauges. These strings are stretched very easily, quite the opposite from gut, and are used at different pitches over quite a range. One even has to tune to a different tuning during a piece quite frequently. For my shamisen I have some silk strings - nylon too, big difference! - but never tried these on a lute. California has a lively community of koto and shamisen players, it shouldn't be too difficult to find some thinner gauges, silk strings for shamisen to try out on your mandolin or lute. David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. [1]Sign up now. -- References 1. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222985/direct/01/
[LUTE] Re: Q on odd tunings for plucked instruments
I'm not sure I understand the question :) The problem is MusicXML, which records only fret and midi-pitch for modern tabulature. Modern tabulature is basically french form using numerals. Guitar, banjo, and mandolin (possibly bouzuki and modern cittern too) are published in modern tabulature; and musicXML is becoming a popular plain-text file format. I am not sure that it is enough to record fret and pitch (as musicXML does). I am reminded here that this is not good enough for some tunings of 5-string banjo where it leaves a series of ambiguous notes on courses 1 5. I am not familiar with balalaika play to know if the doubbled top strings are commonly stopped independantly, or always played as a single course. -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Q on odd tunings for plucked instruments
The top string is a, two bottom - e. The lowest string is fingered with the thumb, and the chords are built like: (from the bottom) e-a-c, and such. a On Sat, 26 Dec 2009 11:48:19 -0500 (EST) dem...@suffolk.lib.ny.us wrote: I'm not sure I understand the question :) The problem is MusicXML, which records only fret and midi-pitch for modern tabulature. Modern tabulature is basically french form using numerals. Guitar, banjo, and mandolin (possibly bouzuki and modern cittern too) are published in modern tabulature; and musicXML is becoming a popular plain-text file format. I am not sure that it is enough to record fret and pitch (as musicXML does). I am reminded here that this is not good enough for some tunings of 5-string banjo where it leaves a series of ambiguous notes on courses 1 5. I am not familiar with balalaika play to know if the doubbled top strings are commonly stopped independantly, or always played as a single course. -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Q on odd tunings for plucked instruments
The Scots/Irish clarsach (medieval wire-string harp) of yore had the two central strings tuned to b, and were referred to as the 'two sisters'. I have a couple of theories as to why this should be. 1) one of them was b flat Thanks for the mention, this is the first I have heard of the 'two sisters', dont recall it in Roslyn Rensch's book on harps (my copy is the 1998 edition, I see a 2007 now). Any date for first mention? I am inclined to agree with you, scholars lacking solid evidence in either direction will argue all round the barn, but I see the practical side of it, b-flat is the first accidental needed, so would be the first provided. Keyboards, harp, hammered dulcimer; regular spacing between the courses is a major aspect in play, to violate it would not be done casually, there had to be some reason favoring the use of the 'two sisters', and having both b and b-flat available seems to me the only reason. -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Q on odd tunings for plucked instruments
I don't have a date - I'm thinking back 20 years or so. I imagine I got the information from Anne Hayman or Bill Taylor. Anne, if I remember her correctly, had some madcap theory to do with folk-lore, pixies, spiritual lay lines, and god-knows what else - although may be doing her a disservice. But neither Anne nor Bill gave any credence to my thory of b and b flat. Rob 2009/12/26 [1]dem...@suffolk.lib.ny.us The Scots/Irish clarsach (medieval wire-string harp) of yore had the two central strings tuned to b, and were referred to as the 'two sisters'. I have a couple of theories as to why this should be. 1) one of them was b flat Thanks for the mention, this is the first I have heard of the 'two sisters', dont recall it in Roslyn Rensch's book on harps (my copy is the 1998 edition, I see a 2007 now). Any date for first mention? I am inclined to agree with you, scholars lacking solid evidence in either direction will argue all round the barn, but I see the practical side of it, b-flat is the first accidental needed, so would be the first provided. Keyboards, harp, hammered dulcimer; regular spacing between the courses is a major aspect in play, to violate it would not be done casually, there had to be some reason favoring the use of the 'two sisters', and having both b and b-flat available seems to me the only reason. -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:dem...@suffolk.lib.ny.us 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Q on odd tunings for plucked instruments
On Fri, Dec 25, 2009 at 5:56 PM, Christopher Stetson cstet...@smith.edu wrote: Hi, Dana and all, and best holiday wishes. Ideed, we should be celebrating Christmas! In re: David van O's speculation about Asian zithers: A bit more about the Japanese koto, its tuning as well as notation, on my sashimisen pages: http://home.planet.nl/~ooije006/sashimisen/things_japanese/koto_f.html David - going to cook now :-) -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Q on odd tunings for plucked instruments
I'm not sure I understand the question :) But I always ignore sympathetic drones. d At 04:08 PM 12/23/2009, you wrote: Staff notation differes from tablature notation in many ways, but a fundamental point of difference is that ordinary staff notation specifys only the pitch of each note, and not where on the instrument it is produced, for instruments with alternatives this leaves it up to the player, and must be determined in advance, which is a difficulty when playing by sight. Annotations on the score will tell a guitarist what position to play in, an organist might have separate staves for each manual; a number of conventions address this issue, but for a computer program it comes down to what data is recorded internally. MusicXML records the fret and the pitch; but not the tuning (its a big specification, might have missed that). Notation software can review the recorded note/fret pairs and deduce the open tuning (and therefore the implied course) so long as two things are true - fretting must be indicated as if it was chromatic, no two courses can have the same open pitch. I suspect there are some historical cittern tabulatures which break the first; and the second may be a problem for some scordaturas on appalachian dulcimer (which also has a diatonic fretting issue). The 5-string banjo has a myriad of tunings that i have not explored, perhaps its fifth string is sometimes tuned-down to double the first? Q - Besides the strummed dulcimer, ignoring octaves and sympathetic drones, can anyone think of an instrument which (sometimes) employs duplicated-pitch open courses? -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Q on odd tunings for plucked instruments
Besides the strummed dulcimer, ignoring octaves and sympathetic drones, can anyone think of an instrument which (sometimes) employs duplicated-pitch open courses? Japanese Koto. I have no idea about the various other kinds (Korean, Chinese), but can imagine it's more or less the same for these: there are several standard tunings and for the rest anything goes. David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Q on odd tunings for plucked instruments
Ashamed to admit knowledge of this, but most of the balalaika family instruments tune with two unison strings (it's not a pair, or course, but two independent strings), starting with a-e-e for piccolo. http://www.juststrings.com/balalaika.html a. On Thu, 24 Dec 2009 17:42:30 + Stewart McCoy lu...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: Dear Dana, You ask if there are any instruments with open courses tuned to the same note. Some tunings of the Turkish saz or baglama (long-necked lute-like instrument) have the 1st and 3rd courses tuned to the same pitch. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ba%C4%9Flama#Ba.C4.9Flama_tunings Although the five-string banjo in standard G tuning doesn't duplicate the pitch of the open strings, the stopped notes on the 1st and 5th strings duplicate each other from the 5th fret onwards. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of dem...@suffolk.lib.ny.us Sent: 24 December 2009 00:09 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Q on odd tunings for plucked instruments Staff notation differes from tablature notation in many ways, but a fundamental point of difference is that ordinary staff notation specifys only the pitch of each note, and not where on the instrument it is produced, for instruments with alternatives this leaves it up to the player, and must be determined in advance, which is a difficulty when playing by sight. Annotations on the score will tell a guitarist what position to play in, an organist might have separate staves for each manual; a number of conventions address this issue, but for a computer program it comes down to what data is recorded internally. MusicXML records the fret and the pitch; but not the tuning (its a big specification, might have missed that). Notation software can review the recorded note/fret pairs and deduce the open tuning (and therefore the implied course) so long as two things are true - fretting must be indicated as if it was chromatic, no two courses can have the same open pitch. I suspect there are some historical cittern tabulatures which break the first; and the second may be a problem for some scordaturas on appalachian dulcimer (which also has a diatonic fretting issue). The 5-string banjo has a myriad of tunings that i have not explored, perhaps its fifth string is sometimes tuned-down to double the first? Q - Besides the strummed dulcimer, ignoring octaves and sympathetic drones, can anyone think of an instrument which (sometimes) employs duplicated-pitch open courses? -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Q on odd tunings for plucked instruments
On Thu, 24 Dec 2009 13:39:52 -0500 alexander voka...@yahoo.com wrote: Ashamed to admit knowledge of this, but most of the balalaika family instruments tune with two unison strings (it's not a pair, or course, but two independent strings), starting with a-e-e for piccolo. http://www.juststrings.com/balalaika.html a. On Thu, 24 Dec 2009 17:42:30 + Stewart McCoy lu...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: Dear Dana, You ask if there are any instruments with open courses tuned to the same note. Some tunings of the Turkish saz or baglama (long-necked lute-like instrument) have the 1st and 3rd courses tuned to the same pitch. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ba%C4%9Flama#Ba.C4.9Flama_tunings Although the five-string banjo in standard G tuning doesn't duplicate the pitch of the open strings, the stopped notes on the 1st and 5th strings duplicate each other from the 5th fret onwards. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of dem...@suffolk.lib.ny.us Sent: 24 December 2009 00:09 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Q on odd tunings for plucked instruments Staff notation differes from tablature notation in many ways, but a fundamental point of difference is that ordinary staff notation specifys only the pitch of each note, and not where on the instrument it is produced, for instruments with alternatives this leaves it up to the player, and must be determined in advance, which is a difficulty when playing by sight. Annotations on the score will tell a guitarist what position to play in, an organist might have separate staves for each manual; a number of conventions address this issue, but for a computer program it comes down to what data is recorded internally. MusicXML records the fret and the pitch; but not the tuning (its a big specification, might have missed that). Notation software can review the recorded note/fret pairs and deduce the open tuning (and therefore the implied course) so long as two things are true - fretting must be indicated as if it was chromatic, no two courses can have the same open pitch. I suspect there are some historical cittern tabulatures which break the first; and the second may be a problem for some scordaturas on appalachian dulcimer (which also has a diatonic fretting issue). The 5-string banjo has a myriad of tunings that i have not explored, perhaps its fifth string is sometimes tuned-down to double the first? Q - Besides the strummed dulcimer, ignoring octaves and sympathetic drones, can anyone think of an instrument which (sometimes) employs duplicated-pitch open courses? -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Q on odd tunings for plucked instruments
The Scots/Irish clarsach (medieval wire-string harp) of yore had the two central strings tuned to b, and were referred to as the 'two sisters'. I have a couple of theories as to why this should be. 1) one of them was b flat - necessary for medieval music theory and practice, 2) most clarsairs were blind, so two 'b's helped provide a position guide. Both theories have been rejected by clarsach researchers, but no alternative theory has been advanced. Rob -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
