[LUTE] Re: Question on strumming madrigals.
Thanks for this Luke. I heard José Luis Pastor perform in 2011 in Gijon, and he was absolutely amazing. Ed Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 25, 2019, at 12:10 PM, Luke Emmet wrote: > > Perhaps slightly earlier than you had in mind, but not so long ago at the UK > Lute Society we had a presentation and recital by Jose Luis Pastor on the use > of the plectrum in Medieval Lute playing. > > His accompanying CD called "The Evidence" provides a very compelling > performance and demonstrates the capabilities of what can be achieved with > lute plectrum technique. > > https://www.amazon.com/Evidence-Medieval-Jose-Luis-Pastor/dp/B00ZFGV6IO > > If you want to hear what an accomplished lute plectrum technique can sound > like, I recommend this. Contains a fair amount of strumming across partially > damped strings - similar to the lyre technique seen below. And very musical > performance to boot. > > Best Wishes > > - Luke > >> On 25-Apr-2019 06:13, Tristan von Neumann wrote: >> This video by Prof. Stefan Hagel, specialized in Ancient Greek Music, is >> very interesting as it leads to a question that is lingering for a while >> now that has been addressed here as I recall - and it pops up whenever I >> see chords that require more than 4 fingers in the right hand. >> >> First enjoy some Kithara playing: >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UWBo0rsuHU >> >> >> As you can see, it is suggested and it seems supported by iconography >> that the strings were played with a plectrum and the muting of unwanted >> strings. >> >> The strumming accentuates the rhythm, which is very important in greek >> music, as it is derived from the Greek poetry and the very melodious and >> rhythmically pronounced language itself. >> >> Considering that the Lute in the 16th century is seen as a conscious >> revival of the ancient Kithara or similar stringed instruments, the >> function of chords especially in dance music and in vocal intabulations >> would be also to support rhythm. >> >> Yet, we do not often hear strummed lutes, though it is clearly a >> technique at least in Germany, judging from the explicitely strummed >> pieces in Newsidler's Books or the Munich Manuscript, and early stuff >> like Dalza is often written to strum. These chords are written to >> contain on all courses notes of an allowed chord, or allow partial use >> of the courses in one strum, no rules broken here if you happily indulge >> in those. >> >> But when it comes to clusters for example at the end of the fantasies in >> the Thistlethwaite lute book or in Albert de Rippe, some of the chords >> are very awkward to finger in the right hand (also in the left, but >> that's probably because I am not a pro...). >> >> The most puzzling settings are in the Donaueschingen Lute Book - 5 or 6 >> voice madrigals are set correspondingly in the lute - leading to chord >> clusters that cannot possibly played without strumming if you want to >> preserve the rhythmic character of the original. Wondrously, almost all >> chords create a pleasing harmony or create the effect of a >> Durchgangsdissonanz, even if the courses are all strummed. But if other >> fingerings would have been used, the effect would not be as good or >> would emphasize a note not favorable in the strummed chord. >> >> The question arises: Is there any mentioning of this problem for example >> in Fronimo or other treatises about how to intabulate so you are able to >> strum, even though only the notes that are "in line with the rules" are >> notated in the tablature (or as it often seems, only the frame notes of >> the strum), or implying such a technique. >> >> >> Considering the madrigals in Donaueschingen could possible be used to >> accompany a singer, this practice would fall in line with the early >> developments of Basso Continuo, and would make a great effect. We know >> Luzzaschi and Gesualdo did it, but no tabs survived or were ever >> created. Only recently, madrigal groups have added lutes to the full >> vocals, my favorite is this album: >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rX53ymutgc >> >> It was discussed in one episode of me:mo, and I found it intriguing, >> some seem to find it aweful. >> >> I think the use of lute, ceterone and guitar is absolutely enriching the >> madrigals, and some strumming is heard from the ceterone and the guitar, >> obviously. >> >> >> >> A while ago I have recorded this idea with "Venuta era madonna" by >> Marenzio, and while sight-reading I decided to try to employ the Kithara >> effect (sorry, not a pro). >> >> This is by the way imho one of the most beautiful lute pieces ever with >> lush harmonies bordering on impressionist Debussy-like stuff (especially >> with the ring of the additional courses), highly recommended like the >> whole manuscript. >> >> >> Anyway, here it is, with links to the madrigal and the intabulation in >> French tabs are included in the description: >>
[LUTE] Re: Question on strumming madrigals.
Great playing indeed - though none of these pieces have any obligatory polyphony :) It would be interesting to hear a plectrum player tackle the Pesaro Manuscript, which seems to employ the old plectrum style but has many full chords in between. On 25.04.19 19:10, Luke Emmet wrote: Perhaps slightly earlier than you had in mind, but not so long ago at the UK Lute Society we had a presentation and recital by Jose Luis Pastor on the use of the plectrum in Medieval Lute playing. His accompanying CD called "The Evidence" provides a very compelling performance and demonstrates the capabilities of what can be achieved with lute plectrum technique. https://www.amazon.com/Evidence-Medieval-Jose-Luis-Pastor/dp/B00ZFGV6IO If you want to hear what an accomplished lute plectrum technique can sound like, I recommend this. Contains a fair amount of strumming across partially damped strings - similar to the lyre technique seen below. And very musical performance to boot. Best Wishes - Luke On 25-Apr-2019 06:13, Tristan von Neumann wrote: This video by Prof. Stefan Hagel, specialized in Ancient Greek Music, is very interesting as it leads to a question that is lingering for a while now that has been addressed here as I recall - and it pops up whenever I see chords that require more than 4 fingers in the right hand. First enjoy some Kithara playing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UWBo0rsuHU As you can see, it is suggested and it seems supported by iconography that the strings were played with a plectrum and the muting of unwanted strings. The strumming accentuates the rhythm, which is very important in greek music, as it is derived from the Greek poetry and the very melodious and rhythmically pronounced language itself. Considering that the Lute in the 16th century is seen as a conscious revival of the ancient Kithara or similar stringed instruments, the function of chords especially in dance music and in vocal intabulations would be also to support rhythm. Yet, we do not often hear strummed lutes, though it is clearly a technique at least in Germany, judging from the explicitely strummed pieces in Newsidler's Books or the Munich Manuscript, and early stuff like Dalza is often written to strum. These chords are written to contain on all courses notes of an allowed chord, or allow partial use of the courses in one strum, no rules broken here if you happily indulge in those. But when it comes to clusters for example at the end of the fantasies in the Thistlethwaite lute book or in Albert de Rippe, some of the chords are very awkward to finger in the right hand (also in the left, but that's probably because I am not a pro...). The most puzzling settings are in the Donaueschingen Lute Book - 5 or 6 voice madrigals are set correspondingly in the lute - leading to chord clusters that cannot possibly played without strumming if you want to preserve the rhythmic character of the original. Wondrously, almost all chords create a pleasing harmony or create the effect of a Durchgangsdissonanz, even if the courses are all strummed. But if other fingerings would have been used, the effect would not be as good or would emphasize a note not favorable in the strummed chord. The question arises: Is there any mentioning of this problem for example in Fronimo or other treatises about how to intabulate so you are able to strum, even though only the notes that are "in line with the rules" are notated in the tablature (or as it often seems, only the frame notes of the strum), or implying such a technique. Considering the madrigals in Donaueschingen could possible be used to accompany a singer, this practice would fall in line with the early developments of Basso Continuo, and would make a great effect. We know Luzzaschi and Gesualdo did it, but no tabs survived or were ever created. Only recently, madrigal groups have added lutes to the full vocals, my favorite is this album: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rX53ymutgc It was discussed in one episode of me:mo, and I found it intriguing, some seem to find it aweful. I think the use of lute, ceterone and guitar is absolutely enriching the madrigals, and some strumming is heard from the ceterone and the guitar, obviously. A while ago I have recorded this idea with "Venuta era madonna" by Marenzio, and while sight-reading I decided to try to employ the Kithara effect (sorry, not a pro). This is by the way imho one of the most beautiful lute pieces ever with lush harmonies bordering on impressionist Debussy-like stuff (especially with the ring of the additional courses), highly recommended like the whole manuscript. Anyway, here it is, with links to the madrigal and the intabulation in French tabs are included in the description: https://tristanvonneumann.bandcamp.com/track/luca-marenzio-venuta-era-madonna-donaueschingen-lute-book I would love to play this with a singer, but some of you (hi Ron! :)) may be able to do it much better. I would love to hear the
[LUTE] Re: Question on strumming madrigals.
Thank you David, this was an interesting read! I might add that the intabulations could also be made to contain all of the polyphony so you can choose which notes you need to sustain according to which voices you are accompanying. Any idea which voice could most often be left out? This would be a hint to the type of singer is best. On 25.04.19 16:09, David van Ooijen wrote: On (un-)playable intabulations: [1]https://davidvanooijen.wordpress.com/terzis-intabulations/ David *** David van Ooijen [2]davidvanooi...@gmail.com [3]www.davidvanooijen.nl *** On Thu, 25 Apr 2019 at 15:58, Tristan von Neumann <[4]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote: Also, I have enough to work on the fingering itself - and I still haven't found out how to play the sometimes occurring 5 notes on 4 different frets... -- References 1. https://davidvanooijen.wordpress.com/terzis-intabulations/ 2. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 3. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ 4. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Question on strumming madrigals.
Perhaps slightly earlier than you had in mind, but not so long ago at the UK Lute Society we had a presentation and recital by Jose Luis Pastor on the use of the plectrum in Medieval Lute playing. His accompanying CD called "The Evidence" provides a very compelling performance and demonstrates the capabilities of what can be achieved with lute plectrum technique. https://www.amazon.com/Evidence-Medieval-Jose-Luis-Pastor/dp/B00ZFGV6IO If you want to hear what an accomplished lute plectrum technique can sound like, I recommend this. Contains a fair amount of strumming across partially damped strings - similar to the lyre technique seen below. And very musical performance to boot. Best Wishes - Luke On 25-Apr-2019 06:13, Tristan von Neumann wrote: This video by Prof. Stefan Hagel, specialized in Ancient Greek Music, is very interesting as it leads to a question that is lingering for a while now that has been addressed here as I recall - and it pops up whenever I see chords that require more than 4 fingers in the right hand. First enjoy some Kithara playing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UWBo0rsuHU As you can see, it is suggested and it seems supported by iconography that the strings were played with a plectrum and the muting of unwanted strings. The strumming accentuates the rhythm, which is very important in greek music, as it is derived from the Greek poetry and the very melodious and rhythmically pronounced language itself. Considering that the Lute in the 16th century is seen as a conscious revival of the ancient Kithara or similar stringed instruments, the function of chords especially in dance music and in vocal intabulations would be also to support rhythm. Yet, we do not often hear strummed lutes, though it is clearly a technique at least in Germany, judging from the explicitely strummed pieces in Newsidler's Books or the Munich Manuscript, and early stuff like Dalza is often written to strum. These chords are written to contain on all courses notes of an allowed chord, or allow partial use of the courses in one strum, no rules broken here if you happily indulge in those. But when it comes to clusters for example at the end of the fantasies in the Thistlethwaite lute book or in Albert de Rippe, some of the chords are very awkward to finger in the right hand (also in the left, but that's probably because I am not a pro...). The most puzzling settings are in the Donaueschingen Lute Book - 5 or 6 voice madrigals are set correspondingly in the lute - leading to chord clusters that cannot possibly played without strumming if you want to preserve the rhythmic character of the original. Wondrously, almost all chords create a pleasing harmony or create the effect of a Durchgangsdissonanz, even if the courses are all strummed. But if other fingerings would have been used, the effect would not be as good or would emphasize a note not favorable in the strummed chord. The question arises: Is there any mentioning of this problem for example in Fronimo or other treatises about how to intabulate so you are able to strum, even though only the notes that are "in line with the rules" are notated in the tablature (or as it often seems, only the frame notes of the strum), or implying such a technique. Considering the madrigals in Donaueschingen could possible be used to accompany a singer, this practice would fall in line with the early developments of Basso Continuo, and would make a great effect. We know Luzzaschi and Gesualdo did it, but no tabs survived or were ever created. Only recently, madrigal groups have added lutes to the full vocals, my favorite is this album: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rX53ymutgc It was discussed in one episode of me:mo, and I found it intriguing, some seem to find it aweful. I think the use of lute, ceterone and guitar is absolutely enriching the madrigals, and some strumming is heard from the ceterone and the guitar, obviously. A while ago I have recorded this idea with "Venuta era madonna" by Marenzio, and while sight-reading I decided to try to employ the Kithara effect (sorry, not a pro). This is by the way imho one of the most beautiful lute pieces ever with lush harmonies bordering on impressionist Debussy-like stuff (especially with the ring of the additional courses), highly recommended like the whole manuscript. Anyway, here it is, with links to the madrigal and the intabulation in French tabs are included in the description: https://tristanvonneumann.bandcamp.com/track/luca-marenzio-venuta-era-madonna-donaueschingen-lute-book I would love to play this with a singer, but some of you (hi Ron! :)) may be able to do it much better. I would love to hear the Madrigals of the Donaueschingen Lute Book done as lute songs. Would you consider this a viable concept or is there no basis for more strumming? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: Question on strumming madrigals.
On (un-)playable intabulations: [1]https://davidvanooijen.wordpress.com/terzis-intabulations/ David *** David van Ooijen [2]davidvanooi...@gmail.com [3]www.davidvanooijen.nl *** On Thu, 25 Apr 2019 at 15:58, Tristan von Neumann <[4]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote: Also, I have enough to work on the fingering itself - and I still haven't found out how to play the sometimes occurring 5 notes on 4 different frets... -- References 1. https://davidvanooijen.wordpress.com/terzis-intabulations/ 2. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 3. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ 4. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Question on strumming madrigals.
That is interesting - but I was referring to solutions where you can safely strum all of it because all notes are in harmony or in the scale. :) Also, I have enough to work on the fingering itself - and I still haven't found out how to play the sometimes occurring 5 notes on 4 different frets... On 25.04.19 15:12, Gary Boye wrote: Ron, Tristan, et al., I've always wondered about the odd "L" chord in Baroque guitar notation: a C-minor chord in first position, guitar tuning. Obviously, it is best with an E-flat on the 2nd string 4th fret, but that's a bit of a stretch for amateurs. The other version contains a D-natural on the 3rd fret of the second string, which creates a sometimes jarring Cm7 chord. What I usually do is form the chord as it's written, but take my third finger off the string until it just dampens it--you certainly don't want a B-natural open-string to sound. With the 2nd string dampened, you're back to Cm and don't really notice that it is only 4 notes. . . Using the fretting fingers to dampen strings in this way might be more common than we think; and perhaps sometimes they are actually notated into the tablature. Gary On Thu, Apr 25, 2019 at 8:57 AM Ron Andrico <[1]praelu...@hotmail.com> wrote: � �Your question has to do with historical evidence of strumming in lute � �music, and you have answered it yourself by mentioning that the � �technique was described by Newsidler. � But I like to point out that, � �historically, the purpose of tablature was not merely to describe where � �to put fingers on strings. � Tablature was a system of scoring � �polyphonic music, otherwise only available in separate partbooks, on a � �single staff. � Effective realization of historical tablature demands a � �thorough understanding of historical composition and the ability to � �reconstitute this condensed form of polyphonic music by recognizing and � �endeavoring to highlight the individual lines in a piece. � �We know from historical tablatures for baroque guitar that sensitively � �performed strumming can highlight the intended voice leading of a � �chordal piece, and we have many wonderful examples of 20th-century � �chord melody solos that highlight intelligently improvised voice � �leading on guitar by the likes of Dick McDonough, Carl Kress, George � �Van Eps, and Joe Pass. � �Historical tablature is not just a map of where to place the fingers, � �it is a reservoir of information, particularly with intabulations of � �vocal music and ensemble instrumental � fantasias. � Essentially, the � �intabulator was saying, "Here is the music: play it if you can." � If � �strumming is an effective means of articulating the elements of a � �polyphonic composition, then have at it. � �RA � � �__ � �From: [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu <[3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu> on behalf � �of Tristan von Neumann <[4]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> � �Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2019 5:13 AM � �To: [5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu � �Subject: [LUTE] Question on strumming madrigals. � �This video by Prof. Stefan Hagel, specialized in Ancient Greek Music, � �is � �very interesting as it leads to a question that is lingering for a � �while � �now that has been addressed here as I recall - and it pops up whenever � �I � �see chords that require more than 4 fingers in the right hand. � �First enjoy some Kithara playing: � �[1][6]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UWBo0rsuHU � �As you can see, it is suggested and it seems supported by iconography � �that the strings were played with a plectrum and the muting of unwanted � �strings. � �The strumming accentuates the rhythm, which is very important in greek � �music, as it is derived from the Greek poetry and the very melodious � �and � �rhythmically pronounced language itself. � �Considering that the Lute in the 16th century is seen as a conscious � �revival of the ancient Kithara or similar stringed instruments, the � �function of chords especially in dance music and in vocal intabulations � �would be also to support rhythm. � �Yet, we do not often hear strummed lutes, though it is clearly a � �technique at least in Germany, judging from the explicitely strummed � �pieces in Newsidler's Books or the Munich Manuscript, and early stuff � �like
[LUTE] Re: Question on strumming madrigals.
Ron, Tristan, et al., I've always wondered about the odd "L" chord in Baroque guitar notation: a C-minor chord in first position, guitar tuning. Obviously, it is best with an E-flat on the 2nd string 4th fret, but that's a bit of a stretch for amateurs. The other version contains a D-natural on the 3rd fret of the second string, which creates a sometimes jarring Cm7 chord. What I usually do is form the chord as it's written, but take my third finger off the string until it just dampens it--you certainly don't want a B-natural open-string to sound. With the 2nd string dampened, you're back to Cm and don't really notice that it is only 4 notes. . . Using the fretting fingers to dampen strings in this way might be more common than we think; and perhaps sometimes they are actually notated into the tablature. Gary On Thu, Apr 25, 2019 at 8:57 AM Ron Andrico <[1]praelu...@hotmail.com> wrote: Your question has to do with historical evidence of strumming in lute music, and you have answered it yourself by mentioning that the technique was described by Newsidler. But I like to point out that, historically, the purpose of tablature was not merely to describe where to put fingers on strings. Tablature was a system of scoring polyphonic music, otherwise only available in separate partbooks, on a single staff. Effective realization of historical tablature demands a thorough understanding of historical composition and the ability to reconstitute this condensed form of polyphonic music by recognizing and endeavoring to highlight the individual lines in a piece. We know from historical tablatures for baroque guitar that sensitively performed strumming can highlight the intended voice leading of a chordal piece, and we have many wonderful examples of 20th-century chord melody solos that highlight intelligently improvised voice leading on guitar by the likes of Dick McDonough, Carl Kress, George Van Eps, and Joe Pass. Historical tablature is not just a map of where to place the fingers, it is a reservoir of information, particularly with intabulations of vocal music and ensemble instrumental fantasias. Essentially, the intabulator was saying, "Here is the music: play it if you can." If strumming is an effective means of articulating the elements of a polyphonic composition, then have at it. RA __ From: [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu <[3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu> on behalf of Tristan von Neumann <[4]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2019 5:13 AM To: [5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Question on strumming madrigals. This video by Prof. Stefan Hagel, specialized in Ancient Greek Music, is very interesting as it leads to a question that is lingering for a while now that has been addressed here as I recall - and it pops up whenever I see chords that require more than 4 fingers in the right hand. First enjoy some Kithara playing: [1][6]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UWBo0rsuHU As you can see, it is suggested and it seems supported by iconography that the strings were played with a plectrum and the muting of unwanted strings. The strumming accentuates the rhythm, which is very important in greek music, as it is derived from the Greek poetry and the very melodious and rhythmically pronounced language itself. Considering that the Lute in the 16th century is seen as a conscious revival of the ancient Kithara or similar stringed instruments, the function of chords especially in dance music and in vocal intabulations would be also to support rhythm. Yet, we do not often hear strummed lutes, though it is clearly a technique at least in Germany, judging from the explicitely strummed pieces in Newsidler's Books or the Munich Manuscript, and early stuff like Dalza is often written to strum. These chords are written to contain on all courses notes of an allowed chord, or allow partial use of the courses in one strum, no rules broken here if you happily indulge in those. But when it comes to clusters for example at the end of the fantasies in the Thistlethwaite lute book or in Albert de Rippe, some of the chords are very awkward to finger in the right hand (also in the left, but that's probably because I am not a pro...). The most puzzling
