[LUTE] Re: Thomann Canterella and LLD lutes
So what are the pros and cons for the lute world then?
If we look at the guitar market, you can buy extremely cheap but
reasonably well crafted instruments.
(Numerous "80$ Guitar vs. 3000$ Guitar videos on youtube show this quite
well)
If one really puts some effort into production, I think prices of about
400$ for a playable lute seem realistic.
The other question is: do luthiers really want to train their
competitors on an already very small market?
Only if lutes are so in demand that they cannot cope with the amount of
orders.
Again, the guitar market shows that people want to play, and many are
willing to spend a few k$ for a hand made beauty.
That's why I always say: go to where the people are and play the lute,
don't expect them to come to your nerdy in-circles.
If no one plays the lute, speculations on how to have a mass market are
quite futile.
:)
On 29.09.19 15:53, Ron Andrico wrote:
>On a more "philosophical" view: wasn't it better to allow young
luthiers to
have a market instead of put this also in the hands of Chinese mass
building? If young luthiers will not have a market and will not be able
to
grow up professionally to the verge of the art, what you will get in a
few
years is the same standard, cheap instruments, maybe good enough but
without
personality.
Francesco
I just found this message from Francesco (in the wrong mail folder) and
have to say thanks for your words of wisdom on the subject. One might
say that LLD got what they deserved by seeking out a low-budget
producer of their instruments. The reason goods from that particular
locale are inexpensive is because 1) they pay their workers a pittance,
and 2) their business practices follow a path quite divergent from
those of the west.
While it is a good thing to take steps to make lutes more affordable to
a broader public, it would be a better thing to look at the problem
from a wide perspective. If we care about cultivating an appreciation
for the lute and its music, we should care about cultivating the craft
skill of making lutes. Why not put energy (and money) into apprentice
programs to train the next generation of luthiers? The shortage of
skilled luthiers is a very serious problem, and having a local luthier
would be a blessing.
RA
__
From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
on behalf of Francesco
Tribioli
Sent: Friday, September 20, 2019 10:08 AM
To: 'David van Ooijen'
Cc: 'Lute List'
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thomann Canterella and LLD lutes
Exactly. In my opinion the right violation can be only on the brand
mark, if
it has been registered and if Thomann lutes had it on them. There could
not
be a copyright on a lute design, in my opinion, as they are from
historical
designs which are public domain. Probably if the LDD rosette was a very
special design they could register it but it is a standard original
design
that every luthier has used once in his life.
It is like the copyright on fonts. One can copyright the font file,
that is
the computer instructions that permit the rendering of the typeface on
screen and printer, but cannot copyright the typeface, the actual
aspect of
the characters. If there is some special lute feature exclusive of LDD
lutes, that could be copyrighted, but if they are "almost" traditional
I
think everyone is authorized to make an identical lute. At the end it
is
even difficult to say if the plan used is protected. In principle yes,
but
one could have copied one of the already built lutes, as it is usually
done
with the museum lutes, and have his own plane.
To be honest, in this case it seems there is not even a guarantee that
those
lutes didn't come from the same factory. If this is the case both
Thomann
and LDD have been tricked by the Chinese makers and LDD should complain
with
the Chinese maker, if there is a contract of exclusive supply. If the
Chinese didn't sign a contract in exclusive they might even be in their
right to sell the same lute to other brands...
On a more "philosophical" view: wasn't it better to allow young
luthiers to
have a market instead of put this also in the hands of Chinese mass
building? If young luthiers will not have a market and will not be able
to
grow up professionally to the verge of the art, what you will get in a
few
years is the same standard, cheap instruments, maybe good enough but
without
personality.
Francesco
> -Messaggio originale-
> Da: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> Per conto di David van Ooijen
> Inviato: venerdì 20 settembre 2019 11:00
[LUTE] Re: Thomann Canterella and LLD lutes
>On a more "philosophical" view: wasn't it better to allow young luthiers to have a market instead of put this also in the hands of Chinese mass building? If young luthiers will not have a market and will not be able to grow up professionally to the verge of the art, what you will get in a few years is the same standard, cheap instruments, maybe good enough but without personality. Francesco I just found this message from Francesco (in the wrong mail folder) and have to say thanks for your words of wisdom on the subject. One might say that LLD got what they deserved by seeking out a low-budget producer of their instruments. The reason goods from that particular locale are inexpensive is because 1) they pay their workers a pittance, and 2) their business practices follow a path quite divergent from those of the west. While it is a good thing to take steps to make lutes more affordable to a broader public, it would be a better thing to look at the problem from a wide perspective. If we care about cultivating an appreciation for the lute and its music, we should care about cultivating the craft skill of making lutes. Why not put energy (and money) into apprentice programs to train the next generation of luthiers? The shortage of skilled luthiers is a very serious problem, and having a local luthier would be a blessing. RA __ From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of Francesco Tribioli Sent: Friday, September 20, 2019 10:08 AM To: 'David van Ooijen' Cc: 'Lute List' Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thomann Canterella and LLD lutes Exactly. In my opinion the right violation can be only on the brand mark, if it has been registered and if Thomann lutes had it on them. There could not be a copyright on a lute design, in my opinion, as they are from historical designs which are public domain. Probably if the LDD rosette was a very special design they could register it but it is a standard original design that every luthier has used once in his life. It is like the copyright on fonts. One can copyright the font file, that is the computer instructions that permit the rendering of the typeface on screen and printer, but cannot copyright the typeface, the actual aspect of the characters. If there is some special lute feature exclusive of LDD lutes, that could be copyrighted, but if they are "almost" traditional I think everyone is authorized to make an identical lute. At the end it is even difficult to say if the plan used is protected. In principle yes, but one could have copied one of the already built lutes, as it is usually done with the museum lutes, and have his own plane. To be honest, in this case it seems there is not even a guarantee that those lutes didn't come from the same factory. If this is the case both Thomann and LDD have been tricked by the Chinese makers and LDD should complain with the Chinese maker, if there is a contract of exclusive supply. If the Chinese didn't sign a contract in exclusive they might even be in their right to sell the same lute to other brands... On a more "philosophical" view: wasn't it better to allow young luthiers to have a market instead of put this also in the hands of Chinese mass building? If young luthiers will not have a market and will not be able to grow up professionally to the verge of the art, what you will get in a few years is the same standard, cheap instruments, maybe good enough but without personality. Francesco > -Messaggio originale- > Da: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> Per conto di David van Ooijen > Inviato: venerdì 20 settembre 2019 11:00 > Cc: Lute List > Oggetto: [LUTE] Re: Thomann Canterella and LLD lutes > >I think the author of the video is too quick in accusing Thomann >instead of the Chinese supplier. Chinese suppliers of copied >instruments often use the pictures from the originals, and not form >their own work. If you go internet shopping for a cheap Chinese Gibson, >Fender or fancy jazz guitar, you'll find the suppliers use the pictures >taken from the websites of the original guitars, and not pictures from >what you will actually get. I'm sure Thomann violates copyright laws by >distributing these instruments, if they actually did because in all the >stories I haven't heard anyone yet who actually bought one of the >Thomann Chanterelle copycat lutes, but I think the focus of LDD should > be at looking at what's going on at their Chinese lute supplier. >On a side note. I
[LUTE] Re: Thomann Canterella and LLD lutes
Yes, there is sometimes that sort of issue with
Chinese firms. I was once contacted by a Chinese
firm offering to sell cheap baroque bows and the
image they used was one of my own bows which
they'd scraped off my website!
I think there is also a similar parallel trade in
the Pakistani lutes between the Early Music Shop
and various eBay suppliers. The system has been
going for years in the food industry where
manufacturers make essentially the same product
for different firms. One summer holiday while at
school I worked in the Chivers jam factory where
one of the lines was making the same jam for
Marks & Spencers own label. The only difference
was that the workers on that line had to wear
hair-nets.
On Ralf's other point about copying historic
instruments, the Victoria and Albert Museum used
to print on their drawings that the drawings
themselves were copyright but that you were
permitted to make an instrument based on them.
Best wishes,
David
At 11:35 +0200 20/9/19, David van Ooijen wrote:
Well put.
Gibson has some of their designs patented. You can copy an ES335, but
you are not allowed to copy the shape of the shoulders, the shape of
the top of the headstock, the shape of the trussrod cover and the
Gibson logo and name. I suppose LDD has a patent on their logo, but on
the shape and design of their instruments? It will all come down to the
agreement LDD has with it's Chinese supplier, but I think Thomann is
free to buy on the international market.
***
David van Ooijen
[1]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
[2]www.davidvanooijen.nl
***
On Fri, 20 Sep 2019 at 11:29, Ralf Mattes <[3]r...@mh-freiburg.de> wrote:
Am Freitag, 20. September 2019 11:00 CEST, David van Ooijen
<[4]davidvanooi...@gmail.com> schrieb:
> I think the author of the video is too quick in accusing
Thomann
> instead of the Chinese supplier.
I think the author of said video might be up for an unpleasant
surprise - he's accusing
Thomann of a crime. He better has some convincing prove of
evidence.
> Chinese suppliers of copied
> instruments often use the pictures from the originals, and
not form
> their own work. If you go internet shopping for a cheap
Chinese Gibson,
> Fender or fancy jazz guitar, you'll find the suppliers use the
pictures
> taken from the websites of the original guitars, and not
pictures from
> what you will actually get.
I don't think this is a case of a stolen picture. If I understand
correctly, the instruments sold by
Le Luth Dorɬ© are in fact produced by a third party manufacturer
("... provisions of LLD's manufacturing agreements"
to quote their statement). It's rather likely that said (unnamed)
manufacutrer (most likely a chinese company)
did sell the same instruments to Thomann (a company that doesn't
build instruments at all, it's just a large resale
company). Whether or not this was legal depends on the contracts
between Le Luth Dorɬ© and it's manufacturer.
Accusing Thomann of "copyright/inelectual property" infringement is
pretty silly. They most likely just bought up
a charge of instruments on the international market - after all,
those instruments don't seem to be part of their
regular catalog.
> I'm sure Thomann violates copyright laws by
> distributing these instruments, if they actually did because
in all the
> stories I haven't heard anyone yet who actually bought one of
the
> Thomann Chanterelle copycat lutes, but I think the focus of
LDD should
> be at looking at what's going on at their Chinese lute
supplier.
> On a side note. I'm interested in the copyright on a
historically
> accurate lute. If a luthier makes a historically accurate
lute, whose
> copyright are you infringing if you make that same
historically
> accurate lute?
Even so IANAL I'm pretty shure there is no "copyright" on instrument
(or any kind of industrial) design.
There is either a patent (highly unlikely ;-) or what is called a
'utility patent' / 'utility model' (germ. "Gebrauchsmuster").
Now, in most jurisdictions, those need to be registered before you
can enforce them. Maybe Le Luth Dorɬ© might
have failed to do so. Or the chinese company just didn't care - this
IS a known problem in the chinese-european
trade.
Cheers, RalfD
--
References
1. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com
2. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/
3. mailto:r...@mh-freiburg.de
4. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com
To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
The Smokehouse,
6 Whitwell Road,
[LUTE] Re: Thomann Canterella and LLD lutes
Exactly. In my opinion the right violation can be only on the brand mark, if it has been registered and if Thomann lutes had it on them. There could not be a copyright on a lute design, in my opinion, as they are from historical designs which are public domain. Probably if the LDD rosette was a very special design they could register it but it is a standard original design that every luthier has used once in his life. It is like the copyright on fonts. One can copyright the font file, that is the computer instructions that permit the rendering of the typeface on screen and printer, but cannot copyright the typeface, the actual aspect of the characters. If there is some special lute feature exclusive of LDD lutes, that could be copyrighted, but if they are "almost" traditional I think everyone is authorized to make an identical lute. At the end it is even difficult to say if the plan used is protected. In principle yes, but one could have copied one of the already built lutes, as it is usually done with the museum lutes, and have his own plane. To be honest, in this case it seems there is not even a guarantee that those lutes didn't come from the same factory. If this is the case both Thomann and LDD have been tricked by the Chinese makers and LDD should complain with the Chinese maker, if there is a contract of exclusive supply. If the Chinese didn't sign a contract in exclusive they might even be in their right to sell the same lute to other brands... On a more "philosophical" view: wasn't it better to allow young luthiers to have a market instead of put this also in the hands of Chinese mass building? If young luthiers will not have a market and will not be able to grow up professionally to the verge of the art, what you will get in a few years is the same standard, cheap instruments, maybe good enough but without personality. Francesco > -Messaggio originale- > Da: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> Per conto di David van Ooijen > Inviato: venerdì 20 settembre 2019 11:00 > Cc: Lute List > Oggetto: [LUTE] Re: Thomann Canterella and LLD lutes > >I think the author of the video is too quick in accusing Thomann >instead of the Chinese supplier. Chinese suppliers of copied >instruments often use the pictures from the originals, and not form >their own work. If you go internet shopping for a cheap Chinese Gibson, >Fender or fancy jazz guitar, you'll find the suppliers use the pictures >taken from the websites of the original guitars, and not pictures from >what you will actually get. I'm sure Thomann violates copyright laws by >distributing these instruments, if they actually did because in all the >stories I haven't heard anyone yet who actually bought one of the >Thomann Chanterelle copycat lutes, but I think the focus of LDD should > be at looking at what's going on at their Chinese lute supplier. >On a side note. I'm interested in the copyright on a historically >accurate lute. If a luthier makes a historically accurate lute, whose >copyright are you infringing if you make that same historically >accurate lute? >David >*** >David van Ooijen >[1]davidvanooi...@gmail.com >[2]www.davidvanooijen.nl >*** > >On Fri, 20 Sep 2019 at 10:39, Anthony Hind ><[3]agno3ph...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: > > Dear Bruno and other Lutenists >Following on from questions raised by Bruno Carneiro and > others > about Thomann Canterlla lutes being possible copies of LLD lutes, > I see > Braedon Hofmann has posted this video about this question: > [1][4]https://youtu.be/VcOIeVwCOv0 > Regards > Anthony > [2]Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone > -- > References > 1. [5]https://youtu.be/VcOIeVwCOv0 > 2. [6]https://yho.com/footer0 > To get on or off this list see list information at > [7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >-- > > References > >1. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com >2. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ >3. mailto:agno3ph...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu >4. https://youtu.be/VcOIeVwCOv0 >5. https://youtu.be/VcOIeVwCOv0 >6. https://yho.com/footer0 >7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Thomann Canterella and LLD lutes
Well put.
Gibson has some of their designs patented. You can copy an ES335, but
you are not allowed to copy the shape of the shoulders, the shape of
the top of the headstock, the shape of the trussrod cover and the
Gibson logo and name. I suppose LDD has a patent on their logo, but on
the shape and design of their instruments? It will all come down to the
agreement LDD has with it's Chinese supplier, but I think Thomann is
free to buy on the international market.
***
David van Ooijen
[1]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
[2]www.davidvanooijen.nl
***
On Fri, 20 Sep 2019 at 11:29, Ralf Mattes <[3]r...@mh-freiburg.de> wrote:
Am Freitag, 20. September 2019 11:00 CEST, David van Ooijen
<[4]davidvanooi...@gmail.com> schrieb:
> I think the author of the video is too quick in accusing
Thomann
> instead of the Chinese supplier.
I think the author of said video might be up for an unpleasant
surprise - he's accusing
Thomann of a crime. He better has some convincing prove of
evidence.
> Chinese suppliers of copied
> instruments often use the pictures from the originals, and
not form
> their own work. If you go internet shopping for a cheap
Chinese Gibson,
> Fender or fancy jazz guitar, you'll find the suppliers use the
pictures
> taken from the websites of the original guitars, and not
pictures from
> what you will actually get.
I don't think this is a case of a stolen picture. If I understand
correctly, the instruments sold by
Le Luth Doré are in fact produced by a third party manufacturer
("... provisions of LLD's manufacturing agreements"
to quote their statement). It's rather likely that said (unnamed)
manufacutrer (most likely a chinese company)
did sell the same instruments to Thomann (a company that doesn't
build instruments at all, it's just a large resale
company). Whether or not this was legal depends on the contracts
between Le Luth Doré and it's manufacturer.
Accusing Thomann of "copyright/inelectual property" infringement is
pretty silly. They most likely just bought up
a charge of instruments on the international market - after all,
those instruments don't seem to be part of their
regular catalog.
> I'm sure Thomann violates copyright laws by
> distributing these instruments, if they actually did because
in all the
> stories I haven't heard anyone yet who actually bought one of
the
> Thomann Chanterelle copycat lutes, but I think the focus of
LDD should
> be at looking at what's going on at their Chinese lute
supplier.
> On a side note. I'm interested in the copyright on a
historically
> accurate lute. If a luthier makes a historically accurate
lute, whose
> copyright are you infringing if you make that same
historically
> accurate lute?
Even so IANAL I'm pretty shure there is no "copyright" on instrument
(or any kind of industrial) design.
There is either a patent (highly unlikely ;-) or what is called a
'utility patent' / 'utility model' (germ. "Gebrauchsmuster").
Now, in most jurisdictions, those need to be registered before you
can enforce them. Maybe Le Luth Doré might
have failed to do so. Or the chinese company just didn't care - this
IS a known problem in the chinese-european
trade.
Cheers, RalfD
--
References
1. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com
2. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/
3. mailto:r...@mh-freiburg.de
4. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com
To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Thomann Canterella and LLD lutes
Am Freitag, 20. September 2019 11:00 CEST, David van Ooijen
schrieb:
>I think the author of the video is too quick in accusing Thomann
>instead of the Chinese supplier.
I think the author of said video might be up for an unpleasant surprise - he's
accusing
Thomann of a crime. He better has some convincing prove of evidence.
>Chinese suppliers of copied
>instruments often use the pictures from the originals, and not form
>their own work. If you go internet shopping for a cheap Chinese Gibson,
>Fender or fancy jazz guitar, you'll find the suppliers use the pictures
>taken from the websites of the original guitars, and not pictures from
>what you will actually get.
I don't think this is a case of a stolen picture. If I understand correctly,
the instruments sold by
Le Luth Doré are in fact produced by a third party manufacturer ("...
provisions of LLD’s manufacturing agreements"
to quote their statement). It's rather likely that said (unnamed) manufacutrer
(most likely a chinese company)
did sell the same instruments to Thomann (a company that doesn't build
instruments at all, it's just a large resale
company). Whether or not this was legal depends on the contracts between Le
Luth Doré and it's manufacturer.
Accusing Thomann of "copyright/inelectual property" infringement is pretty
silly. They most likely just bought up
a charge of instruments on the international market - after all, those
instruments don't seem to be part of their
regular catalog.
>I'm sure Thomann violates copyright laws by
>distributing these instruments, if they actually did because in all the
>stories I haven't heard anyone yet who actually bought one of the
>Thomann Chanterelle copycat lutes, but I think the focus of LDD should
> be at looking at what's going on at their Chinese lute supplier.
>On a side note. I'm interested in the copyright on a historically
>accurate lute. If a luthier makes a historically accurate lute, whose
>copyright are you infringing if you make that same historically
>accurate lute?
Even so IANAL I'm pretty shure there is no "copyright" on instrument (or any
kind of industrial) design.
There is either a patent (highly unlikely ;-) or what is called a 'utility
patent' / 'utility model' (germ. "Gebrauchsmuster").
Now, in most jurisdictions, those need to be registered before you can enforce
them. Maybe Le Luth Doré might
have failed to do so. Or the chinese company just didn't care - this IS a known
problem in the chinese-european
trade.
Cheers, RalfD
To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Thomann Canterella and LLD lutes
I think the author of the video is too quick in accusing Thomann instead of the Chinese supplier. Chinese suppliers of copied instruments often use the pictures from the originals, and not form their own work. If you go internet shopping for a cheap Chinese Gibson, Fender or fancy jazz guitar, you'll find the suppliers use the pictures taken from the websites of the original guitars, and not pictures from what you will actually get. I'm sure Thomann violates copyright laws by distributing these instruments, if they actually did because in all the stories I haven't heard anyone yet who actually bought one of the Thomann Chanterelle copycat lutes, but I think the focus of LDD should be at looking at what's going on at their Chinese lute supplier. On a side note. I'm interested in the copyright on a historically accurate lute. If a luthier makes a historically accurate lute, whose copyright are you infringing if you make that same historically accurate lute? David *** David van Ooijen [1]davidvanooi...@gmail.com [2]www.davidvanooijen.nl *** On Fri, 20 Sep 2019 at 10:39, Anthony Hind <[3]agno3ph...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: Dear Bruno and other Lutenists Following on from questions raised by Bruno Carneiro and others about Thomann Canterlla lutes being possible copies of LLD lutes, I see Braedon Hofmann has posted this video about this question: [1][4]https://youtu.be/VcOIeVwCOv0 Regards Anthony [2]Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone -- References 1. [5]https://youtu.be/VcOIeVwCOv0 2. [6]https://yho.com/footer0 To get on or off this list see list information at [7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 2. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ 3. mailto:agno3ph...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu 4. https://youtu.be/VcOIeVwCOv0 5. https://youtu.be/VcOIeVwCOv0 6. https://yho.com/footer0 7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
