[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Tombeau de Mazarin
Dear Grzegorz, thank you for pointing it out: it's a really nice recording. All the best, Luca Grzegorz Joachimiak on 09/03/15 00:24 wrote: Dear all, did you hear Tombeau de Mazarin performed by Jan Cizmar? You can listen to it to gether with short prelude placed before Tombeau and also read short text about i t: [1]http://blog.polona.pl/2015/03/ksiega-na-lutnie-prelude-tombeau/ This is the part of The Book for Lute - project connected with PL-Wn Mus. 396 Ci m. lute manuscript. Grzegorz -- Lute in Silesia and in Poland [2]http://www.lute.pl To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html References 1. http://blog.polona.pl/2015/03/ksiega-na-lutnie-prelude-tombeau/ 2. http://www.lute.pl/ 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tombeau de Mazarin
I have had a report that someone had trouble downloading the files. I split the file into a different section per tuning. The largest file is still over 600MB (F Major was popular). Please see the site at: http://www.dolcesfogato.com/Music/ I would recommend NOT clicking on these items (even the split ones) and loading it into your browser. They are big. My recommendation is to click on the link with the right mouse button (assuming the default right handed mouse) and selecting Save link as... from the pop-up menu. This will then download the file without loading it into the browser. The download of the full document takes about an hour as a single download. Regards David -Original Message- From: David Smith [mailto:d...@dolcesfogato.com] Sent: Monday, March 9, 2015 5:11 PM To: 'Matthew Daillie'; 'Grzegorz Joachimiak' Cc: 'lute@cs.dartmouth.edu' Subject: RE: [LUTE] Re: Tombeau de Mazarin I have downloaded all the images and will have a PDF of the entire document up this evening. I hope this is not violating any license agreement but I did not see that it did from the website. It will be big. Regards David -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Matthew Daillie Sent: Monday, March 9, 2015 1:48 AM To: Grzegorz Joachimiak Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Tombeau de Mazarin OK, I have worked out how to download individual images in JPG format (one has to sign-up with a Facebook or Google identity for example). Any way of downloading the whole manuscript in one go? Many thanks Matthew On 9 mars 2015, at 00:17, Grzegorz Joachimiak gjoachim...@wp.pl wrote: Dear all, did you hear Tombeau de Mazarin performed by Jan Ci m r? You can listen to it together with short prelude placed before Tombeau and also read short text about it: http://blog.polona.pl/2015/03/ksiega-na-lutnie-prelude-tombeau/ This is the part of The Book for Lute - project connected with PL-Wn Mus. 396 Cim. lute manuscript. Grzegorz -- Lute in Silesia and in Poland http://www.lute.pl To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tombeau de Mazarin
Hi, thank you for nice comments. This copy is open source manuscript so you can use it for free. I have prepared already next parts together with texts and movies from this manuscript performed also by Jan and also recorded in this old library and monastery. I will inform you about next parts periodically by every week. Best wishes Grzegorz -- Lute in Silesia and in Poland [1]http://www.lute.pl Wysl/ane z iPada Dnia 10 mar 2015 o godz. 04:27 David Smith [2]d...@dolcesfogato.com napisal/(a): The file is now available at: [3]http://www.dolcesfogato.com/Music/. Look for Livre du Luth. It is 2.8GB so be prepared for a wait when downloading. Regards David -Original Message- From: [4]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [[5]mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of David Smith Sent: Monday, March 9, 2015 5:11 PM To: 'Matthew Daillie'; 'Grzegorz Joachimiak' Cc: [6]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Tombeau de Mazarin I have downloaded all the images and will have a PDF of the entire document up this evening. I hope this is not violating any license agreement but I did not see that it did from the website. It will be big. Regards David -Original Message- From: [7]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [[8]mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Matthew Daillie Sent: Monday, March 9, 2015 1:48 AM To: Grzegorz Joachimiak Cc: [9]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Tombeau de Mazarin OK, I have worked out how to download individual images in JPG format (one has to sign-up with a Facebook or Google identity for example). Any way of downloading the whole manuscript in one go? Many thanks Matthew On 9 mars 2015, at 00:17, Grzegorz Joachimiak [10]gjoachim...@wp.pl wrote: Dear all, did you hear Tombeau de Mazarin performed by Jan Ci m r? You can listen to it together with short prelude placed before Tombeau and also read short text about it: [11]http://blog.polona.pl/2015/03/ksiega-na-lutnie-prelude-tombeau/ This is the part of The Book for Lute - project connected with PL-Wn Mus. 396 Cim. lute manuscript. Grzegorz -- Lute in Silesia and in Poland [12]http://www.lute.pl To get on or off this list see list information at [13]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.lute.pl/ 2. mailto:d...@dolcesfogato.com 3. http://www.dolcesfogato.com/Music/ 4. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 5. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 6. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 7. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 8. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 9. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 10. mailto:gjoachim...@wp.pl 11. http://blog.polona.pl/2015/03/ksiega-na-lutnie-prelude-tombeau/ 12. http://www.lute.pl/ 13. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tombeau de Mazarin
That's great, thanks David. Best Matthew On Mar 10, 2015, at 4:27, David Smith d...@dolcesfogato.com wrote: The file is now available at: http://www.dolcesfogato.com/Music/. Look for Livre du Luth. It is 2.8GB so be prepared for a wait when downloading. Regards David -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of David Smith Sent: Monday, March 9, 2015 5:11 PM To: 'Matthew Daillie'; 'Grzegorz Joachimiak' Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Tombeau de Mazarin I have downloaded all the images and will have a PDF of the entire document up this evening. I hope this is not violating any license agreement but I did not see that it did from the website. It will be big. Regards David -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Matthew Daillie Sent: Monday, March 9, 2015 1:48 AM To: Grzegorz Joachimiak Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Tombeau de Mazarin OK, I have worked out how to download individual images in JPG format (one has to sign-up with a Facebook or Google identity for example). Any way of downloading the whole manuscript in one go? Many thanks Matthew On 9 mars 2015, at 00:17, Grzegorz Joachimiak gjoachim...@wp.pl wrote: Dear all, did you hear Tombeau de Mazarin performed by Jan Ci m r? You can listen to it together with short prelude placed before Tombeau and also read short text about it: http://blog.polona.pl/2015/03/ksiega-na-lutnie-prelude-tombeau/ This is the part of The Book for Lute - project connected with PL-Wn Mus. 396 Cim. lute manuscript. Grzegorz -- Lute in Silesia and in Poland http://www.lute.pl To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tombeau de Mazarin
I have downloaded all the images and will have a PDF of the entire document up this evening. I hope this is not violating any license agreement but I did not see that it did from the website. It will be big. Regards David -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Matthew Daillie Sent: Monday, March 9, 2015 1:48 AM To: Grzegorz Joachimiak Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Tombeau de Mazarin OK, I have worked out how to download individual images in JPG format (one has to sign-up with a Facebook or Google identity for example). Any way of downloading the whole manuscript in one go? Many thanks Matthew On 9 mars 2015, at 00:17, Grzegorz Joachimiak gjoachim...@wp.pl wrote: Dear all, did you hear Tombeau de Mazarin performed by Jan Ci m r? You can listen to it together with short prelude placed before Tombeau and also read short text about it: http://blog.polona.pl/2015/03/ksiega-na-lutnie-prelude-tombeau/ This is the part of The Book for Lute - project connected with PL-Wn Mus. 396 Cim. lute manuscript. Grzegorz -- Lute in Silesia and in Poland http://www.lute.pl To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tombeau de Mazarin
The file is now available at: http://www.dolcesfogato.com/Music/. Look for Livre du Luth. It is 2.8GB so be prepared for a wait when downloading. Regards David -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of David Smith Sent: Monday, March 9, 2015 5:11 PM To: 'Matthew Daillie'; 'Grzegorz Joachimiak' Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Tombeau de Mazarin I have downloaded all the images and will have a PDF of the entire document up this evening. I hope this is not violating any license agreement but I did not see that it did from the website. It will be big. Regards David -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Matthew Daillie Sent: Monday, March 9, 2015 1:48 AM To: Grzegorz Joachimiak Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Tombeau de Mazarin OK, I have worked out how to download individual images in JPG format (one has to sign-up with a Facebook or Google identity for example). Any way of downloading the whole manuscript in one go? Many thanks Matthew On 9 mars 2015, at 00:17, Grzegorz Joachimiak gjoachim...@wp.pl wrote: Dear all, did you hear Tombeau de Mazarin performed by Jan Ci m r? You can listen to it together with short prelude placed before Tombeau and also read short text about it: http://blog.polona.pl/2015/03/ksiega-na-lutnie-prelude-tombeau/ This is the part of The Book for Lute - project connected with PL-Wn Mus. 396 Cim. lute manuscript. Grzegorz -- Lute in Silesia and in Poland http://www.lute.pl To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tombeau de Mazarin
OK, I have worked out how to download individual images in JPG format (one has to sign-up with a Facebook or Google identity for example). Any way of downloading the whole manuscript in one go? Many thanks Matthew On 9 mars 2015, at 00:17, Grzegorz Joachimiak gjoachim...@wp.pl wrote: Dear all, did you hear Tombeau de Mazarin performed by Jan Čižmář? You can listen to it together with short prelude placed before Tombeau and also read short text about it: http://blog.polona.pl/2015/03/ksiega-na-lutnie-prelude-tombeau/ This is the part of The Book for Lute - project connected with PL-Wn Mus. 396 Cim. lute manuscript. Grzegorz -- Lute in Silesia and in Poland http://www.lute.pl To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tombeau de Mazarin
Thank you Grezgorz for this, a very interesting, little publicised project. I have consulted the scans at http://polona.pl/item/30170337/0/. Do you know if it is possible to download a full copy of the manuscript, the download button brings up a 404 error in my browsers? Many thanks, Matthew On 9 mars 2015, at 00:17, Grzegorz Joachimiak gjoachim...@wp.pl wrote: Dear all, did you hear Tombeau de Mazarin performed by Jan Čižmář? You can listen to it together with short prelude placed before Tombeau and also read short text about it: http://blog.polona.pl/2015/03/ksiega-na-lutnie-prelude-tombeau/ This is the part of The Book for Lute - project connected with PL-Wn Mus. 396 Cim. lute manuscript. Grzegorz -- Lute in Silesia and in Poland http://www.lute.pl To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tombeau de Mazarin
There was a mistake in my prior post: In PL-Wn396, fol 44v, there are three different ornaments, viz. comma, cross and half-moon below. The cross once appears with an unstopped course. So, if the comma means an appogiatura from above, the _CROSS_ (!!!) necessarily means a trill starting from the upper note. Then the half-moon probably means an appogiatura from below. -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Grzegorz Joachimiak [mailto:gjoachim...@wp.pl] wrote I think piece from so-called ms. Schaffgotsch has a lot of errors. There concern mainly intervals, absence of some letters, and differents of rhythm. Yes, missing letters and letters on wrong lines. But as for differing rhythms, I beg to differ. I'd like to believe that Saizenay is a fairly late and elaborated source as regards rhythms, whereas this tombeau in Schaffgotsch (PL-Wn 396 cim) was copied from an earlier source as its notated rhythms and ornaments are kept very simple. I compare it to the skeleton-like notations in the Rhetorique des Dieux in that its utterly simple notations are intended to serve as a basis for interpretation. But you asked about ornamnets. I thought about comma ornaments. In PL-Wn 396 Cim. they are not look the same in my opinion. So maybe comma ornament with bigger curve (tunny) are appogiaturas (from above) and comma with smaller tunny are mordents (also from above). But there is also a comma with smaller tunny and with crosswise short line. It could be a mordent from below. I can't see commas of different breadths of stroke (if that is what you meant to suggest) in the tombeau in PL-Wn 396 cim. Only - commas on the right of a letter (1st half: bar 4 on beat 1, bar on 6 beats 2 and 4, bar 7 on beats 1and 2 and 4; 2nd half: bar 2 on beat 3, bar 3 on beat 2-and, bar 4 on beat 1, bar 7 on beats 1 and 3, bar 8 on beat 2-and) - crosses (1st half: bar 2 on beat 2, bar 5 on beat 3; 2nd half: bar 2 on beat 3-and, bar 3 on beat 4, bar 6 on beat 4, bar 7 on beats 2 and 4, bar 8 on beast 3) and half-moons below letters. Comparison of the concordances shows that the half-moons denote an appoggiatura from below / chute / fall (e. g. bar 1 on beat 3, or bar 3 on beat 3). However, Wn-396 has half-moons at a number of places where the concordances read commas, and that considerably changes the flow of the line. What is funny is a place like bar 3 on beat 1. There, Wn 396 reads an appoggiatura from below on B flat (half-moon below 2i), whereas the concordances read an appoggiatura from above on B natural (comma on 1g). That will hardly be a slip of the pen. You could argue that most of the half-moons are errors. One way of explaining B flat on 2i instead of B natural on 1g could be that the scribe intabulated from staff notation. That would or could explain as well those mistaken ornaments (if they are mistakes), i. e. half-moon where there should be commas. But what if these deviations are _not_ mistakes? How is one to play this tombeau from Wn 396? For me is interesting too an chordal conclusion in Schaffgotsch ms. In any other sources I did not find ending like here. And this chords have all of component (prime-third-fifth). Yes, another deviation, indeed. Wn 396 keeps the rhythmic structure, though, and it is more correct than the other versions in terms of metre in that it has a dotted crotched in the end, compensating for the initial upbeat, whereas the concordances have a minim in the end. Mathias Dnia 2-06-2011 o godz. 0:28 Mathias Roesel napisał(a): Dear everybody, is someone familiar with the Tombeau de Mazarin? Pls find sources and concordances at http://mss.slweiss.de/index.php?id=2type=mslang=deums=PL- Wn396page =44v In PL-Wn396, fol 44v, there are three different ornaments, viz. comma, cross and half-moon below. The cross once appears with an unstopped course. So, if the comma means an appogiatura from above, the comma necessarily means a trill starting from the upper note. Then the half-moon probably means an appogiatura from below. If that is so, my impression is that the melody is intentionally disfigured not only in Wn 396 but also in A-Krems79 (#164 on fol. 89v), A-Wn17706 (fol. 17v) and even in Saizenay (#167). Also in this piece, there are tediously repeated phrases which belong to the Italian style of baroque composing, but would be carefully avoided in French baroque lute music. Is it supposable that this tombeau is not a tombstone of beloved memory, but a mockery, rather, aimed at the pet-hated Italian cardinal who overcame the uprising of the Fronde? Any ideas? Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tombeau de Mazarin
So, piece in PL-Wn 396 Cim. is example of interpretation, but we need to do a source criticism, because we could eliminated errors and we would know some specific of interpretation this piece. Yes, I think so. But I do not think of this piece (or of any French baroque lute music) in terms of urtext. Wn 396 is a genuine source, as is. As you said, those half-moons aren't necessarily mistakes. (By the way, there is a hermeneutics, isn't there?) This is easier when we have concordances. There is harder when we have a unique piece by Anonymous. Well, yes, there is a kind of hermeneutics. I shouldn't correct Pl-Wn 396, by means of other versions of other versions, as a whole. Some corrections are obvious (letters on wrong lines, missing letters). Others are not so obvious (ornaments, rhythm). I thought about commas from e.g. 1st half: bar 4 on beat 1, bar 7 on beats 2 and 4 are not the same as bar 6 on beats 2 and 4, bar 7 on beats 1 (look like half- moons) - there are not single coincedences. Both wrote from the right side of letter. I suppose that scribe intentionally wrote sometimes a bigger commas (like half-moons) and sometimes smaller ornament. And I meant that smaller comma could be a mordent and bigger comma could be an appogiatura. Let me know if I think incorrectly and if these differentes are only slip of the pen. By half-moon I meant to denote a curve below a letter, not a comma on the right of a letter. And, no, different sizes of commas do not signify different ornaments IMO. A comma is a comma, be it broad or slim. BTW the differences between the commas that you mention amount to hundredths of miliimetres. Another cup of tea is whether you execute a comma as an appoggiatura or as a trill (starting on the main note or on the upper auxiliary note). I think that depends on when you think the piece was composed. Trills starting on the main note are fine with me in pieces earlier than, say, 1630. One more important things in example from Schaffgotsch's manuscript are points situated near the letters. I suppose there are mean a fingering to left hand. Yes, definitely. A scribe wrote fingering in difficult places to execute what we can't find in examples from e.g. A-Wn17706 (only singly points), Well,the tombeau in Wn 396 is fingered througout. As opposed to that, single dots in Vienna 17706 refer to the index of the right hand. So we could see that this fingering is useful and probable was wrote by scribe who knew which fingering is necessary to catch an unbroken cantabile and how to play more comfortable. Let me put it this way: Fingerings make clear the way scribes understood their phrasings. Not necessarily cantabile or comfortable. Best, Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
