[LUTE] Re: What's the historical reason for the bent down peg box?
Would the joint of the peg box with the neck withstand the pressure of 13 or more strings were the peg box not angled as it is? I don't think so. On Sep 2, 2012, at 10:00 AM, Stephen Stubbs wrote: > I was embarrassed when I realized I didn't know the historical reason > to this question put forward on another email list: > "Never did find out why the lute's neck takes that funny turn. Gotta > Google it." > Why does the peg box take that downward turn? > "The Other" Stephen Stubbs > Champaign, Illinois USA > > -- > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: What's the historical reason for the bent down peg box?
Theorboes withstand much greater tensions and don't have a bent back
peghead. Ditto for many mandoras/gallichons and for orpharions/bandoras
and,of course, for modern six string guitars with high tension strings.
A more compact instrument has been suggested - but again that never
stopped the theorbo. However, perhaps in cramped domestic music making
with poor light it was an advantage to be able to get as close as
possible to other performers
MH
--- On Sun, 2/9/12, Edward Mast wrote:
From: Edward Mast
Subject: [LUTE] Re: What's the historical reason for the bent down
peg box?
To: "Stephen Stubbs"
Cc: "Lute List"
Date: Sunday, 2 September, 2012, 15:23
Would the joint of the peg box with the neck withstand the pressure of
13 or more strings were the peg box not angled as it is? I don't think
so.
On Sep 2, 2012, at 10:00 AM, Stephen Stubbs wrote:
> I was embarrassed when I realized I didn't know the historical
reason
> to this question put forward on another email list:
> "Never did find out why the lute's neck takes that funny turn.
Gotta
> Google it."
> Why does the peg box take that downward turn?
> "The Other" Stephen Stubbs
> Champaign, Illinois USA
>
> --
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: What's the historical reason for the bent down peg box?
I had always assumed it was to play better in groups whether instrumentalists, singers or others just standing around. Less, jabbingly, so to speak. By 1500 tradition cemented the idea in the common mind that that was 'how a lute's shaped' perhaps in keeping with its history of the oud. It also keeps the pegs at a common distance from the player and does not increase the depth of the instrument --unlike the thinner bodied vihuela/viola/fiddle family. So it does keep the shape compact. So maybe it was easier to construct a box before custom cases. When you set it down on its back it keeps the strings parallel (pre-7c instruments of course) which may have added to an aesthetic argument. This also means that when you hang it on a wall, the strings don't collect dust, well, the playing surfaces, anyway. Ok, I'm wandering. If the reason isn't physics (and we've seen that straight-out peg boxes could have worked but were not chosen in the 15th and most of the 16th centuries), trying to unravel the social and aesthetic reasons could be complex --a bit of one and two bits of another, as it were. my cent and a half, Sean On Sep 2, 2012, at 7:00 AM, Stephen Stubbs wrote: I was embarrassed when I realized I didn't know the historical reason to this question put forward on another email list: "Never did find out why the lute's neck takes that funny turn. Gotta Google it." Why does the peg box take that downward turn? "The Other" Stephen Stubbs Champaign, Illinois USA -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: What's the historical reason for the bent down peg box?
Not having seen a theorbo up close, I assumed that it was built with a one piece neck/peg box, much like a guitar. I can see how such a neck peg box could support the tension if not angled back. But I am indeed surprised if the theorbo has its peg box and neck extension glued to the main neck where they join and yet supports the tension . There can't be much glue joint area to support the tension without being angled back to overcome the leverage of the strings being straight. Continuing with my perhaps mistaken assumptions, I have assumed that the lute - while it could be built with a one piece straight neck and peg box much like a guitar - was not built this way because the wood would have to be rather heavy and strong. By bending the neck back, leverage is reduced to the extent that lighter wood can be used for the neck, and the joint of the neck and peg box can be small in area. On Sep 2, 2012, at 11:33 AM, Martyn Hodgson wrote: > > Theorboes withstand much greater tensions and don't have a bent back > peghead. Ditto for many mandoras/gallichons and for orpharions/bandoras > and,of course, for modern six string guitars with high tension strings. > > A more compact instrument has been suggested - but again that never > stopped the theorbo. However, perhaps in cramped domestic music making > with poor light it was an advantage to be able to get as close as > possible to other performers > > MH > --- On Sun, 2/9/12, Edward Mast wrote: > > From: Edward Mast > Subject: [LUTE] Re: What's the historical reason for the bent down > peg box? > To: "Stephen Stubbs" > Cc: "Lute List" > Date: Sunday, 2 September, 2012, 15:23 > > Would the joint of the peg box with the neck withstand the pressure of > 13 or more strings were the peg box not angled as it is? I don't think > so. > On Sep 2, 2012, at 10:00 AM, Stephen Stubbs wrote: >> I was embarrassed when I realized I didn't know the historical > reason >> to this question put forward on another email list: >> "Never did find out why the lute's neck takes that funny turn. > Gotta >> Google it." >> Why does the peg box take that downward turn? >> "The Other" Stephen Stubbs >> Champaign, Illinois USA >> >> -- >> >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > -- > > References > > 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
[LUTE] Re: What's the historical reason for the bent down peg box?
Keeping the bass string in its groove sounds good to me, Alan. I have a ren guitar w/ an issue like that sometimes. On Sep 2, 2012, at 9:23 AM, Alan Hoyle wrote: My guess was that, in the early days of the lute, string tensions were low, particularly in the case of bass strings; by bending them over the angle of the neck/pegbox join they would be far less likely to slip out of the nut groove. I also heard the assertion that it increased the volume of the strings. I do not know if either suggestion is true, either historically of scientifically... Alan On 2 September 2012 17:09, Sean Smith <[1]lutesm...@mac.com> wrote: I had always assumed it was to play better in groups whether instrumentalists, singers or others just standing around. Less, jabbingly, so to speak. By 1500 tradition cemented the idea in the common mind that that was 'how a lute's shaped' perhaps in keeping with its history of the oud. It also keeps the pegs at a common distance from the player and does not increase the depth of the instrument --unlike the thinner bodied vihuela/viola/fiddle family. So it does keep the shape compact. So maybe it was easier to construct a box before custom cases. When you set it down on its back it keeps the strings parallel (pre-7c instruments of course) which may have added to an aesthetic argument. This also means that when you hang it on a wall, the strings don't collect dust, well, the playing surfaces, anyway. Ok, I'm wandering. If the reason isn't physics (and we've seen that straight-out peg boxes could have worked but were not chosen in the 15th and most of the 16th centuries), trying to unravel the social and aesthetic reasons could be complex --a bit of one and two bits of another, as it were. my cent and a half, Sean On Sep 2, 2012, at 7:00 AM, Stephen Stubbs wrote: I was embarrassed when I realized I didn't know the historical reason to this question put forward on another email list: "Never did find out why the lute's neck takes that funny turn. Gotta Google it." Why does the peg box take that downward turn? "The Other" Stephen Stubbs Champaign, Illinois USA -- To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:lutesm...@mac.com 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: What's the historical reason for the bent down peg box?
On Sep 2, 2012, at 9:44 AM, Edward Mast wrote: > But I am indeed surprised if the theorbo has its peg box and neck extension > glued to the main neck where they join and yet supports the tension . Some theorbos, at least, are built this way, and the string tension actually helps hold the extension in place. Obviously, it's a fitted joint, the nature of which I lack the vocabulary to describe. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: What's the historical reason for the bent down peg box?
On 02/09/2012 17:55, howard posner wrote: On Sep 2, 2012, at 9:44 AM, Edward Mast wrote: But I am indeed surprised if the theorbo has its peg box and neck extension glued to the main neck where they join and yet supports the tension . Some theorbos, at least, are built this way, and the string tension actually helps hold the extension in place. Obviously, it's a fitted joint, the nature of which I lack the vocabulary to describe. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html I had heard the lute doesn't fit in the case if the pegbox is not bent back! Nigel
[LUTE] Re: What's the historical reason for the bent down peg box?
Ah, perhaps something like a tongue and groove joint. I could see this working. On Sep 2, 2012, at 12:55 PM, howard posner wrote: > On Sep 2, 2012, at 9:44 AM, Edward Mast wrote: > >> But I am indeed surprised if the theorbo has its peg box and neck extension >> glued to the main neck where they join and yet supports the tension . > > Some theorbos, at least, are built this way, and the string tension actually > helps hold the extension in place. Obviously, it's a fitted joint, the > nature of which I lack the vocabulary to describe. > > -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: What's the historical reason for the bent down peg box?
The neck and peghead of the theorbo is in two seperate pieces and they
are, indeed, glued together at the joint. The joint is a quite simple
cut away and not like a tongue and grooved joint - in fact it's
virtually the same joint as commonly used on the bent-back peghead of
most lutes.
MH
--- On Sun, 2/9/12, Edward Mast wrote:
From: Edward Mast
Subject: [LUTE] Re: What's the historical reason for the bent down
peg box?
To: "Martyn Hodgson"
Cc: "Stephen Stubbs" , "Lute List"
Date: Sunday, 2 September, 2012, 17:44
Not having seen a theorbo up close, I assumed that it was built with a
one piece neck/peg box, much like a guitar. I can see how such a neck
peg box could support the tension if not angled back. But I am indeed
surprised if the theorbo has its peg box and neck extension glued to
the main neck where they join and yet supports the tension . There
can't be much glue joint area to support the tension without being
angled back to overcome the leverage of the strings being straight.
Continuing with my perhaps mistaken assumptions, I have assumed that
the lute - while it could be built with a one piece straight neck and
peg box much like a guitar - was not built this way because the wood
would have to be rather heavy and strong. By bending the neck back,
leverage is reduced to the extent that lighter wood can be used for the
neck, and the joint of the neck and peg box can be small in area.
On Sep 2, 2012, at 11:33 AM, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
>
> Theorboes withstand much greater tensions and don't have a bent
back
> peghead. Ditto for many mandoras/gallichons and for
orpharions/bandoras
> and,of course, for modern six string guitars with high tension
strings.
>
> A more compact instrument has been suggested - but again that never
> stopped the theorbo. However, perhaps in cramped domestic music
making
> with poor light it was an advantage to be able to get as close as
> possible to other performers
>
> MH
> --- On Sun, 2/9/12, Edward Mast <[1]nedma...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> From: Edward Mast <[2]nedma...@aol.com>
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: What's the historical reason for the bent
down
> peg box?
> To: "Stephen Stubbs" <[3]fartrea...@gmail.com>
> Cc: "Lute List" <[4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Date: Sunday, 2 September, 2012, 15:23
>
> Would the joint of the peg box with the neck withstand the pressure
of
> 13 or more strings were the peg box not angled as it is? I don't
think
> so.
> On Sep 2, 2012, at 10:00 AM, Stephen Stubbs wrote:
>> I was embarrassed when I realized I didn't know the historical
> reason
>> to this question put forward on another email list:
>> "Never did find out why the lute's neck takes that funny turn.
> Gotta
>> Google it."
>> Why does the peg box take that downward turn?
>> "The Other" Stephen Stubbs
>> Champaign, Illinois USA
>>
>> --
>>
>>
>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>> [1][5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
> --
>
> References
>
> 1. [6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
--
References
1. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nedma...@aol.com
2. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nedma...@aol.com
3. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%c3%bartrea...@gmail.com
4. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: What's the historical reason for the bent down peg box?
Glued joints can, of course, fail for a variety of reasons: including a poorly made joint and the glue gelling before the joint being held firm/clamped. Interestingly, as an indication of the stress on the long extensions of theorboes and archlutes: they bend and rise after a time and some remedial action is often necessary to return them to a reasonable playable state; but in my experience the joint itself rarely fails... MH --- On Mon, 3/9/12, Edward Mast wrote: From: Edward Mast Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: What's the historical reason for the bent down peg box? To: "Martyn Hodgson" Date: Monday, 3 September, 2012, 14:48 Well, so much for assumptions. Thank you, Martyn. I would only add that, having had the peg box come loose three times on my 8 course instrument, I still feel more confidence in the glue joint with the peg box being angled than I would in a straight neck-peg box glue joint. On Sep 3, 2012, at 3:23 AM, Martyn Hodgson wrote: The neck and peghead of the theorbo is in two seperate pieces and are, indeed, glued together at the join. MH -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: What's the historical reason for the bent down peg box?
I mentioned this to a friend who is not a musician, but a brilliant scientist. His immediate reaction was that the sharp angle of the string going over the nut to a right angle pegbox would have the same effect as a pulley in reducing the amount of pressure in lbs per square inch on the pegs - thereby making it much easier to tune and reducing stress on the whole pegbox. This makes great sense to me. >Glued joints can, of course, fail for a variety of reasons: >including a poorly made joint and the glue gelling before the joint >being held firm/clamped. > >Interestingly, as an indication of the stress on the long >extensions of theorboes and archlutes: they bend and rise after a >time and some remedial action is often necessary to return them to >a reasonable playable state; but in my experience the joint itself >rarely fails... > >MH >--- On Mon, 3/9/12, Edward Mast wrote: > > From: Edward Mast > Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: What's the historical reason for the bent > down peg box? To: "Martyn Hodgson" > Date: Monday, 3 September, 2012, 14:48 > >Well, so much for assumptions. Thank you, Martyn. I would only >add that, having had the peg box come loose three times on my 8 >course instrument, I still feel more confidence in the glue joint >with the peg box being angled than I would in a straight neck-peg >box glue joint. > >On Sep 3, 2012, at 3:23 AM, Martyn Hodgson wrote: > >The neck and peghead of the theorbo is in two seperate pieces and >are, indeed, glued together at the join. > >MH > >-- > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Tom Draughon Heartistry Music http://www.heartistrymusic.com/artists/tom.html 714 9th Avenue West Ashland, WI 54806 715-682-9362
[LUTE] Re: What's the historical reason for the bent down peg box?
On Sep 3, 2012, at 7:58 PM, t...@heartistrymusic.com wrote: > I mentioned this to a friend who is not a musician, but a brilliant scientist. > His immediate reaction was that the sharp angle of the string going over > the nut to a right angle pegbox would have the same effect as a pulley in > reducing the amount of pressure in lbs per square inch on the pegs - > thereby making it much easier to tune Spoken like someone who's never had to tune a lute. Mention "friction at the nut" to him. > and reducing stress on the whole > pegbox. This makes great sense to me. It would, if stress on the pegbox were a problem. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: What's the historical reason for the bent down peg box?
I don't quite understand this - perhaps your friend is thinking of a geared pulley system? By the application of simple statics surely the tension on the string from the nut to the bridge must equal that from the nut to the peg if the system is to be in equilibrium (ignoring for the nonce the effects of static friction which, as Howard Posner has pointed out, may be very considerable). And surely the critical parameter to ensure a peg is stable is the twisting moment on the peg and the static frictional drag between it and the peghole required to combat the moment: I'm not sure what he means by pressure (in lbs per sq in) on the pegs. MH --- On Tue, 4/9/12, t...@heartistrymusic.com wrote: From: t...@heartistrymusic.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: What's the historical reason for the bent down peg box? To: "Edward Mast" , "Martyn Hodgson" Cc: "Lute Dmth" Date: Tuesday, 4 September, 2012, 3:58 I mentioned this to a friend who is not a musician, but a brilliant scientist. His immediate reaction was that the sharp angle of the string going over the nut to a right angle pegbox would have the same effect as a pulley in reducing the amount of pressure in lbs per square inch on the pegs - thereby making it much easier to tune and reducing stress on the whole pegbox. This makes great sense to me. >Glued joints can, of course, fail for a variety of reasons: >including a poorly made joint and the glue gelling before the joint >being held firm/clamped. > >Interestingly, as an indication of the stress on the long >extensions of theorboes and archlutes: they bend and rise after a >time and some remedial action is often necessary to return them to >a reasonable playable state; but in my experience the joint itself >rarely fails... > >MH >--- On Mon, 3/9/12, Edward Mast <[1]nedma...@aol.com> wrote: > > From: Edward Mast <[2]nedma...@aol.com> > Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: What's the historical reason for the bent > down peg box? To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[3]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> > Date: Monday, 3 September, 2012, 14:48 > >Well, so much for assumptions. Thank you, Martyn. I would only >add that, having had the peg box come loose three times on my 8 >course instrument, I still feel more confidence in the glue joint >with the peg box being angled than I would in a straight neck-peg >box glue joint. > >On Sep 3, 2012, at 3:23 AM, Martyn Hodgson wrote: > >The neck and peghead of the theorbo is in two seperate pieces and >are, indeed, glued together at the join. > >MH > >-- > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Tom Draughon Heartistry Music [5]http://www.heartistrymusic.com/artists/tom.html 714 9th Avenue West Ashland, WI 54806 715-682-9362 -- References 1. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nedma...@aol.com 2. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nedma...@aol.com 3. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 5. http://www.heartistrymusic.com/artists/tom.html
[LUTE] Re: What's the historical reason for the bent down peg box?
t...@heartistrymusic.com wrote: I mentioned this to a friend who is not a musician, but a brilliant scientist. His immediate reaction was that the sharp angle of the string going over the nut to a right angle pegbox would have the same effect as a pulley in reducing the amount of pressure in lbs per square inch on the pegs - thereby making it much easier to tune and reducing stress on the whole pegbox. I respectfully suggest your friend is brilliant in a different field to engineering. In engineering terms it's simple enough. A pulley doesn't change the amount of tension in the string that goes round it. Apart from the different shape itself, the difference made by having the pegboard perpendicular is that the nut is held in place very firmly. andy To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: What's the historical reason for the bent down peg box?
On archlutes, theorbos, baroque guitars etc. I've often had problems with strings not sitting absolutely perfectly in the grooves on the nut, causing less clarity and sustain and (in extreme cases) buzzing. These problems are more likely to arise if I experiment with different guages or types of string, in which case the nut sometimes has to be redone. Since the strings on instruments with bent-back pegboxes are held primarily by the pressure on the nut rather by than the grooves themselves, such problems almost never occur. Sam On 4 September 2012 09:53, andy butler <[1]akbut...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote: [2]t...@heartistrymusic.com wrote: I mentioned this to a friend who is not a musician, but a brilliant scientist. His immediate reaction was that the sharp angle of the string going over the nut to a right angle pegbox would have the same effect as a pulley in reducing the amount of pressure in lbs per square inch on the pegs - thereby making it much easier to tune and reducing stress on the whole pegbox. I respectfully suggest your friend is brilliant in a different field to engineering. In engineering terms it's simple enough. A pulley doesn't change the amount of tension in the string that goes round it. Apart from the different shape itself, the difference made by having the pegboard perpendicular is that the nut is held in place very firmly. andy To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Sam Chapman Oetlingerstrasse 65 4057 Basel (0041) 79 530 39 91 -- References 1. mailto:akbut...@tiscali.co.uk 2. mailto:t...@heartistrymusic.com 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: What's the historical reason for the bent down peg box?
You ask, by the look on your face Why the pegbox bends back at the base It's not Broken, awry Or to stick in your eye It's just so it'll fit in the case -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: What's the historical reason for the bent down peg box?
Well put, David! In the same vein, here's another suggestion: I'm not historically shrewd Yet, simply construed, What is the lute But the child of the oud? Which doesn't quite answer the 'why' question, of course, except to suggest that the reasons for the design may have their roots in an older instrument-making tradition... regards to all, Mark On 9/16/2012 10:16 PM, David Tayler wrote: You ask, by the look on your face Why the pegbox bends back at the base It's not Broken, awry Or to stick in your eye It's just so it'll fit in the case -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: What's the historical reason for the bent down peg box?
My lute pegbox bent- It fits in the case that way! Damn archlute rebuild. On 9/16/2012 7:16 PM, David Tayler wrote: You ask, by the look on your face Why the pegbox bends back at the base It's not Broken, awry Or to stick in your eye It's just so it'll fit in the case -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
