[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Cassein glue
Dear Bill, Many years ago, before I knew better, I made my first instrument with a propriety wood glue 'Cascamite' which I thought at the time was a cassein type adhesive (the similarity in the name). And it was certainly strong, gap filling (benefit for a novice!) and took plenty of time to go off (a mixed blessing). But on reading the label shortly after I saw it was made using a urea based compound - which I took to mean piss rather than diary products I seem to recall some make use of it for gluing parchment for roses etc. I think FoMRHI archives might have something. regards Martyn --- On Fri, 15/3/13, William Samson willsam...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: From: William Samson willsam...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Cassein glue To: lute-buil...@cs.dartmouth.edu lute-buil...@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, 15 March, 2013, 9:33 Hi, An idle question here - I saw on TV how to make casein glue - using skimmed milk, bicarb and vinegar. Apparently it's been around since ancient Egyptian times. [1]http://www.ehow.co.uk/how_8474158_make-casein-glue.html Do you know of any uses it might have had in instrument making, or any evidence that it was used at all? Bill -- To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.ehow.co.uk/how_8474158_make-casein-glue.html 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Cassein glue
Artists use(d) casein glue to glue up panels for painting. The advantage is that it is waterproof so isn't softened by the gessoing process. Casein Glue for Joining If it is necessary to glue up a panel, the best thing to use is the cheese and lime glue which Cennino describes in Chapter CXII. [The Craftsman's Handbook, p. 68.] I have seen a medieval panel, made up with this cement, which was [11] so completely eaten away by worms that the cement which originally joined two parts together stood out in a thin ridge half an inch high, with the marks of the grain of the wood visible on both sides of it. It is durable, adhesive, and, once dry, insoluble in water. This insolubility is a great advantage; for the surface of a panel is kept moist for a long time in the process of gessoing, and ordinary glues tend to soften dangerously if they are kept damp. If the panel is so wide that it cannot be cut from a single plank, two or more planks may be put together with this glue, with broad clamps to hold them while it dries, of course. Moldings may be glued to the panel with it, and nailed through in addition with copper nails, or brads. There are several proprietary casein glues on the market now which are good and useful, but for gluing wooden panels Cennino's lime-casein recipe is better. The alkaline principles of the trade casein glues are more soluble than lime, and may do damage; and the dried film which these products leave behind resembles a glue, while the lime mixture resembles a cement, and is better suited to use in a joint between two pieces of wood. Cennino's recipe is easily followed, using any lean cheese, mouse cheese, or even cottage cheese, consisting of fresh curds strained from the whey. Be sure to get pure lime, and not the compound material called Hydraulic lime which many builders use instead. (D Thompson, The Practice of Tempera Painting, 1936, pp10-11) Cennino's recipe is found in his book, Il Libro dell'Arte from about 1390.: To Make a Glue out of Lime and Cheese. Chapter C XII There is a glue used by workers in wood; this is made of cheese. After putting it to soak in water, work it over with a little quicklime, using a little board with both hands. Put it between the boards; it joins them and fastens them together well. A translation of the full text of Cennino's fascinating book is [1]here. I suppose it might have been used for gluing up the panels of a harpsichord lid prior to painting, but generally it is too hard and permanent for instrument making. I once found and used an old tin of Casco, which was the predecessor of Cascamite. It worked fine but smelt distinctly cheesy, and left a brownish stain on the wood even though it was very pale itself. Regards M On 15 March 2013 10:15, Martyn Hodgson [2]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Dear Bill, Many years ago, before I knew better, I made my first instrument with a propriety wood glue 'Cascamite' which I thought at the time was a cassein type adhesive (the similarity in the name). And it was certainly strong, gap filling (benefit for a novice!) and took plenty of time to go off (a mixed blessing). But on reading the label shortly after I saw it was made using a urea based compound - which I took to mean piss rather than diary products I seem to recall some make use of it for gluing parchment for roses etc. I think FoMRHI archives might have something. regards Martyn --- On Fri, 15/3/13, William Samson [3]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: From: William Samson [4]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Cassein glue To: [5]lute-buil...@cs.dartmouth.edu [6]lute-buil...@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, 15 March, 2013, 9:33 Hi, An idle question here - I saw on TV how to make casein glue - using skimmed milk, bicarb and vinegar. Apparently it's been around since ancient Egyptian times. [1][7]http://www.ehow.co.uk/how_8474158_make-casein-glue.html Do you know of any uses it might have had in instrument making, or any evidence that it was used at all? Bill -- To get on or off this list see list information at [2][8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [9]http://www.ehow.co.uk/how_8474158_make-casein-glue.html 2. [10]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.noteaccess.com/Texts/Cennini/ 2. mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 3. mailto:willsam...@yahoo.co.uk 4. mailto:willsam...@yahoo.co.uk
[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Cassein glue
Dear Bill, Casein glue was certainly used extensively in the middle ages by painters to join the boards of their painting panels before preparing with gesso etc. In fact quite a common recorded item in the invoices they submitted to their commissioning patrons was for the cheese needed to make the glue. So there must have been other recipes besides skimmed milk. Best wishes, David At 09:33 + 15/3/13, William Samson wrote: Hi, An idle question here - I saw on TV how to make casein glue - using skimmed milk, bicarb and vinegar. Apparently it's been around since ancient Egyptian times. http://www.ehow.co.uk/how_8474158_make-casein-glue.html Do you know of any uses it might have had in instrument making, or any evidence that it was used at all? Bill -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- The Smokehouse, 6 Whitwell Road, Norwich, NR1 4HB England. Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899 Website: http://www.vanedwards.co.uk
[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Cassein glue
Dear Bill, Margaret beat me to it with the detailed quotes from Cennini and Thompson but while I was looking at the Cennini I noticed that his recipe for fish glue says that it was used for lute mending, It sounds from the word leaf as if it is isinglass: HOW FISH GLUE IS USED, AND HOW IT IS TEMPERED. CHAPTER CVIII There is a glue which is known as fish glue. This glue is made from various kinds of fish. If you put the little piece, or leaf, in your mouth, just as it is, until it gets a little wet, and rub it on sheep parchments or other parchments, this fastens them together very securely. To dissolve it,2 It is good and excellent for mending lutes and other fine paper, wooden, or bone objects. When you put it on the fire, put in half a goblet of clear water for each leaf. 2 We may supply you must put it on the fire, or something of that sort; or possibly the whole sentence should be recast: A struggierla e buna. E perfettisma. and translated, It is good if you dissolve it. It is the best thing for mending... Translated Daniel Thompson pp 66-7 Best wishes, David At 09:33 + 15/3/13, William Samson wrote: Hi, An idle question here - I saw on TV how to make casein glue - using skimmed milk, bicarb and vinegar. Apparently it's been around since ancient Egyptian times. http://www.ehow.co.uk/how_8474158_make-casein-glue.html Do you know of any uses it might have had in instrument making, or any evidence that it was used at all? Bill -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- The Smokehouse, 6 Whitwell Road, Norwich, NR1 4HB England. Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899 Website: http://www.vanedwards.co.uk --
[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Cassein glue
Thanks for all the interesting replies! I came across another interesting use of glue the other day - I bought a very cheap uke (which actually worked pretty well) and decided to take it apart. It was held together with hot-melt glue of the type used in glue guns. It came apart reasonably cleanly when I warmed up the joints, though the glue residue behaved like chewing gum and was hard to remove from the components. I have used this kind of glue to tack together the two sides of a pegbox when drilling pilot holes for the pegs - Much less bothersome and more secure than trying to hold them together with clamps. A little heat allows them to be separated. Bill -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
