Antwort: Re: Antwort: Re: Antwort: Weiss MS
A good starting point is Stefan Lundgren's Baroque Lute Companion. Stefan quotes many primary sources and gives illustration (not to mention the many pieces in increasing difficulty). But - contrary to the renaissance I don't know of any explicit tutor (introducing into baroque playing) so we need to work a bit on behalf of technique and interpretation. Actually a good thing in my opinion: I think the non-standardisation of baroque lute playing is a good thing. My first tutor was Giesbert's book (only the very first starting exercices) and then Satoh's book which is usefull if you already have played the renaissance lute. If one should start lute playing with the baroque lute Giesbert is still among the best choices. Best wishes Thomas Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] am 27.04.2005 19:14:06 An:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu, Howard Posner [EMAIL PROTECTED] Kopie: Thema: Re: Antwort: Re: Antwort: Weiss MS Some years ago Barto concluded -- or at least arrived at the theory -- that Weiss used the third finger only rarely, and that his arpeggio passages should be played with thumb and two fingers. This was ostensibly the subject of an entire week-long class at an LSA seminar in the 1990s, though the actual presentation took about ten minutes. He repeated it a few minutes for people who had missed the first day, which still left the vast bulk of class time to be conducted as a regular master class. Bob is not the man you want for lengthy detailed lectures. HP Howard, and all, It sure would be nice if someone out there could compile a definitive method for baroque lute, also citing historical evidence etc. Martin Shepard has a very detailed account of the thumb under technique that is really one of the best explanations I've come across. Toyohiko Satoh's Method for the baroque Lute doesn't touch on this theory, of not using A, As a result a guitarist, turned lutenist, it's often times more confusing than enlightening. Also, a guitarist has a natural tendency to alternate I, and M. The idea of repeating the same finger on the same string is totally foreign, but very freeing on the baroque lute. I think using A came about in the 19th century after Sor's time. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Howard Posner [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2005 10:17 AM Subject: Re: Antwort: Re: Antwort: Weiss MS Michael Thames wrote: A friend just sent me a video of Barto playing a concert at the LSA last year. I couldn't help but notice He rarely use's A finger, but did seem to use it sometimes. Hence, I became curious as to the correct application of A. Another interesting thing I noticed, was Barto's technique, of repeating the same finger, on the same string. Very liberating! Some years ago Barto concluded -- or at least arrived at the theory -- that Weiss used the third finger only rarely, and that his arpeggio passages should be played with thumb and two fingers. This was ostensibly the subject of an entire week-long class at an LSA seminar in the 1990s, though the actual presentation took about ten minutes. He repeated it a few minutes for people who had missed the first day, which still left the vast bulk of class time to be conducted as a regular master class. Bob is not the man you want for lengthy detailed lectures. HP To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html CONFIDENTIALITY : This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and may be privileged. If you are not a named recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to another person, use it for any purpose or store or copy the information in any medium.
Giesbert (was: Re: Re: Antwort: Re: Antwort: Weiss MS)
On 4/28/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My first tutor was Giesbert's book (only the very first starting exercices) and then Satoh's book which is usefull if you already have played the renaissance lute. If one should start lute playing with the baroque lute Giesbert is still among the best choices. Best wishes Thomas And Giesbert says specifically, use of middle finger for the first 4 courses, the thumb for the 5th to 13th courses. When the need arises, index and anular to be used according to specified dots (...). He uses ample examples, where the anular is used throughout the book, (logically, when 4 courses are chorded, but also in arpeggio patterns). I believe the book has not been translated to english, and therefore only readable in that very artful german calligraphy. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Antwort: Re: Antwort: Weiss MS
With the legato style of playing the baroque lute, there are so many slurs, hammers-on, pull-off's, etc. It seems almost opposite of renaissance lute, where every note is plucked. So, with the legato left hand work, it is really not all that foreign to repeat plucked notes with a right finger. ed Also Ed, I find that if one is constantly mindful of alternating, I, and M, it throws your hand out of position as well. You should be able to stabilize it with your thighs. RT With the legato style of playing the baroque lute, there are so many slurs, hammers-on, pull-off's, etc. It seems almost opposite of renaissance lute, where every note is plucked. So, with the legato left hand work, it is really not all that foreign to repeat plucked notes with a right finger. ed At 11:14 AM 4/27/2005 -0600, Michael Thames wrote: Howard, and all, It sure would be nice if someone out there could compile a definitive method for baroque lute, also citing historical evidence etc. Martin Shepard has a very detailed account of the thumb under technique that is really one of the best explanations I've come across. Toyohiko Satoh's Method for the baroque Lute doesn't touch on this theory, of not using A, As a result a guitarist, turned lutenist, it's often times more confusing than enlightening. Also, a guitarist has a natural tendency to alternate I, and M. The idea of repeating the same finger on the same string is totally foreign, but very freeing on the baroque lute. I think using A came about in the 19th century after Sor's time. Michael Thames Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Antwort: Weiss MS
Thomas, Is there an English version of the Giesbert's book? The one I have at hand is all in German... A good starting point is Stefan Lundgren's Baroque Lute Companion. Stefan quotes many primary sources and gives illustration (not to mention the many pieces in increasing difficulty). But - contrary to the renaissance I don't know of any explicit tutor (introducing into baroque playing) so we need to work a bit on behalf of technique and interpretation. Actually a good thing in my opinion: I think the non-standardisation of baroque lute playing is a good thing. My first tutor was Giesbert's book (only the very first starting exercices) and then Satoh's book which is usefull if you already have played the renaissance lute. If one should start lute playing with the baroque lute Giesbert is still among the best choices. Best wishes Thomas Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] am 27.04.2005 19:14:06 An:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu, Howard Posner [EMAIL PROTECTED] Kopie: Thema: Re: Antwort: Re: Antwort: Weiss MS Some years ago Barto concluded -- or at least arrived at the theory -- that Weiss used the third finger only rarely, and that his arpeggio passages should be played with thumb and two fingers. This was ostensibly the subject of an entire week-long class at an LSA seminar in the 1990s, though the actual presentation took about ten minutes. He repeated it a few minutes for people who had missed the first day, which still left the vast bulk of class time to be conducted as a regular master class. Bob is not the man you want for lengthy detailed lectures. HP Howard, and all, It sure would be nice if someone out there could compile a definitive method for baroque lute, also citing historical evidence etc. Martin Shepard has a very detailed account of the thumb under technique that is really one of the best explanations I've come across. Toyohiko Satoh's Method for the baroque Lute doesn't touch on this theory, of not using A, As a result a guitarist, turned lutenist, it's often times more confusing than enlightening. Also, a guitarist has a natural tendency to alternate I, and M. The idea of repeating the same finger on the same string is totally foreign, but very freeing on the baroque lute. I think using A came about in the 19th century after Sor's time. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Howard Posner [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2005 10:17 AM Subject: Re: Antwort: Re: Antwort: Weiss MS Michael Thames wrote: A friend just sent me a video of Barto playing a concert at the LSA last year. I couldn't help but notice He rarely use's A finger, but did seem to use it sometimes. Hence, I became curious as to the correct application of A. Another interesting thing I noticed, was Barto's technique, of repeating the same finger, on the same string. Very liberating! Some years ago Barto concluded -- or at least arrived at the theory -- that Weiss used the third finger only rarely, and that his arpeggio passages should be played with thumb and two fingers. This was ostensibly the subject of an entire week-long class at an LSA seminar in the 1990s, though the actual presentation took about ten minutes. He repeated it a few minutes for people who had missed the first day, which still left the vast bulk of class time to be conducted as a regular master class. Bob is not the man you want for lengthy detailed lectures. HP To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Antwort: Weiss MS
Hi Michael, indeed there are only very few indications of fingering of the right hand. There is one Sarabande, where probably Weiss himself has indicated the fingers of the right hand in one arpeggio. It is the Sarabande of the first suite in g minor (Reich/248), that is also in London but with another Sarabande. There is clearly shown that a (...) is used two times. In the London manuscript there are also some indications for the right hand fingering - in some of the Preludes (in Eb major), but I seem to remember that nowhere there is an indication for the a finger. When asked about the use of the a finger by Weiss, I would also argue from his pupils as Falckenhagen. The latter seems to use the a finger on several places in his arppegiated choral versions, but I'm not sure if it is indicated somewhere. Best Markus On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 22:45:51 -0600, Michael Thames wrote: MT Hi Michael, MT MT I directed you to the wrong place. Finally being at home I checked the MT London MT Ms and the piece I meant is on Folio 8v (Courante). MT There is no direct indication of the a-finger. Actually you won't find MT anything about that in any source. MT MTThanks Thomas, If I remember correctly, Markus Lutz, mentioned, Weiss MT indicated the use of A, in a thread about that, a while back. However, I've MT looked through most of the London MS, and so far haven't found any hint of MT this, so I thought maybe it might be in the Dresden MS, which I don't have MT the original facsimile of. MT Michael Thames MT www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com MT - Original Message - MT From: Thomas Schall [EMAIL PROTECTED] MT To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu MT Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 3:12 PM MT Subject: Re: Antwort: Weiss MS MT MT MT Hi Michael, MT MT I directed you to the wrong place. Finally being at home I checked the MT London MT Ms and the piece I meant is on Folio 8v (Courante). MT There is no direct indication of the a-finger. Actually you won't find MT anything about that in any source. MT My teacher asked me to solve such passages with p-i-m which works fine in MT most MT places but on that piece I'm using the anular. MT MT Best wishes MT Thomas MT MT Am Dienstag, 26. April 2005 18:03 schrieben Sie: MT take a look at the d-major capriccio fairly at the beginning of the MT first MT book - I don't have it at hand but it simulates barriolage which is MTcommon for violin players. MT MT Best Thomas MT MT Thomas, MT There's a Capriccio in D towards the end of volume 2, but I can't find MT any direct indication of A finger anywhere. There is right hand MT fingering MT written in by Weiss, in the last measure, last chord, but he indicates MT the MT use M,and I, and thumb. MT I'm looking for specifically where Weiss calls for the use of A, and MT under what circumstances, by perhaps using three dots to show this. MT Thanks! MT Michael Thames MT www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com MT - Original Message - MT From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] MT To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu MT Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 8:37 AM MT Subject: Antwort: Weiss MS MT MTtake a look at the d-major capriccio fairly at the beginning of the MT first MTbook - I don't have it at hand but it simulates barriolage which is MTcommon for violin players. MT MTBest Thomas MT MT MT MT MTMichael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] am 26.04.2005 16:32:38 MT MTAn:Lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu MTKopie: MT MTThema: Weiss MS MT MT I recall a while back the question came up regarding the use of the MT A MTfinger, in baroque lute music in general, and of Weiss in particular. MT Someone mentioned that Weiss, specifically called for the use of A, MT in MTcertain pieces. MT Are there any indications of this in the London MS? If not where MT can MT MT one MT MTfind this, fingering. MT Thanks! MTMichael Thames MTwww.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com MT-- MT MTTo get on or off this list see list information at MThttp://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html MT MT MT MT MTCONFIDENTIALITY : This e-mail and any attachments are confidential MT and MTmay be privileged. If you are not a named recipient, please notify MT the MTsender immediately and do not disclose the contents to another person, MTuse it for any purpose or store or copy the information in any medium. MT MT -- MT Thomas Schall MT Niederhofheimer Weg 3 MT D-65843 Sulzbach MT 06196/74519 MT [EMAIL PROTECTED] MT MT Three witches watch three Swatch watches. Which witch watch which MT Swatch watch? MT MT MT MT MT MT MT
Antwort: Re: Antwort: Weiss MS
Hi Markus, I think it isn't sure Falckenhagen was pupil of Weiss. He was sent to Dresden by Wilhelmine of Bayreuth to *listen* to Weiss and we assume that he would have taken the opportunity to get some lessons from the best known master of the instrument of his time. Or is there any evidence Falckenhagen got lessons from Weiss? I don't think there are any RH fingerings given in Falckenhagens books. The rapid chordal variations in for instance Wach auf mein Herz nevertheless are hardly playable without the use of the anular. I don't know why Michael asks this question but I think deriving from hints that the a-finger was used occassionally that it would have been used in a more general sense would lead to far. Best wishes Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Markus Lutz) am 27.04.2005 10:25:15 An:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Kopie: Thema: Re: Antwort: Weiss MS Hi Michael, indeed there are only very few indications of fingering of the right hand. There is one Sarabande, where probably Weiss himself has indicated the fingers of the right hand in one arpeggio. It is the Sarabande of the first suite in g minor (Reich/248), that is also in London but with another Sarabande. There is clearly shown that a (...) is used two times. In the London manuscript there are also some indications for the right hand fingering - in some of the Preludes (in Eb major), but I seem to remember that nowhere there is an indication for the a finger. When asked about the use of the a finger by Weiss, I would also argue from his pupils as Falckenhagen. The latter seems to use the a finger on several places in his arppegiated choral versions, but I'm not sure if it is indicated somewhere. Best Markus On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 22:45:51 -0600, Michael Thames wrote: MT Hi Michael, MT MT I directed you to the wrong place. Finally being at home I checked the MT London MT Ms and the piece I meant is on Folio 8v (Courante). MT There is no direct indication of the a-finger. Actually you won't find MT anything about that in any source. MT MTThanks Thomas, If I remember correctly, Markus Lutz, mentioned, Weiss MT indicated the use of A, in a thread about that, a while back. However, I've MT looked through most of the London MS, and so far haven't found any hint of MT this, so I thought maybe it might be in the Dresden MS, which I don't have MT the original facsimile of. MT Michael Thames MT www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com MT - Original Message - MT From: Thomas Schall [EMAIL PROTECTED] MT To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu MT Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 3:12 PM MT Subject: Re: Antwort: Weiss MS MT MT MT Hi Michael, MT MT I directed you to the wrong place. Finally being at home I checked the MT London MT Ms and the piece I meant is on Folio 8v (Courante). MT There is no direct indication of the a-finger. Actually you won't find MT anything about that in any source. MT My teacher asked me to solve such passages with p-i-m which works fine in MT most MT places but on that piece I'm using the anular. MT MT Best wishes MT Thomas MT MT Am Dienstag, 26. April 2005 18:03 schrieben Sie: MT take a look at the d-major capriccio fairly at the beginning of the MT first MT book - I don't have it at hand but it simulates barriolage which is MTcommon for violin players. MT MT Best Thomas MT MT Thomas, MT There's a Capriccio in D towards the end of volume 2, but I can't find MT any direct indication of A finger anywhere. There is right hand MT fingering MT written in by Weiss, in the last measure, last chord, but he indicates MT the MT use M,and I, and thumb. MT I'm looking for specifically where Weiss calls for the use of A, and MT under what circumstances, by perhaps using three dots to show this. MT Thanks! MT Michael Thames MT www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com MT - Original Message - MT From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] MT To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu MT Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 8:37 AM MT Subject: Antwort: Weiss MS MT MTtake a look at the d-major capriccio fairly at the beginning of the MT first MTbook - I don't have it at hand but it simulates barriolage which is MTcommon for violin players. MT MTBest Thomas MT MT MT MT MTMichael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] am 26.04.2005 16:32:38 MT MTAn:Lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu MTKopie: MT MTThema: Weiss MS MT MT I recall a while back the question came up regarding the use of the MT A MTfinger, in baroque lute music in general, and of Weiss in particular. MT Someone mentioned that Weiss, specifically called for the use of A, MT in MTcertain pieces. MT Are there any indications of this in the London MS? If not where MT can MT MT one MT MTfind this, fingering. MT Thanks! MTMichael Thames MTwww.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com MT-- MT MTTo get on or off this list see list information at MThttp://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc
Re: Antwort: Re: Antwort: Weiss MS
On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 13:39:52 +0200, thomas.schall wrote: t Hi Markus, t t I think it isn't sure Falckenhagen was pupil of Weiss. He was sent to t Dresden by Wilhelmine of Bayreuth to *listen* to Weiss and we assume that t he would have taken the opportunity to get some lessons from the best known t master of the instrument of his time. Or is there any evidence Falckenhagen t got lessons from Weiss? Hello Thomas, if it is said, Wilhelmine sent him to Dresden to listen to Weiss, then he for sure was a pupil of Weiss. Unfortunately there is - as far as I know - no real list of Weiss pupils. Baron only says many tried to get hold of the Weissian method. But he gives no more detailed answer. t I don't think there are any RH fingerings given in Falckenhagens books. The t rapid chordal variations in for instance Wach auf mein Herz nevertheless t are hardly playable without the use of the anular. t That was my point also. t I don't know why Michael asks this question but I think deriving from hints t that the a-finger was used occassionally that it would have been used in a t more general sense would lead to far. t In this case I want to contradict you, because I think that especially in arpeggios only fingers will be used, that are well trained. Else they wouldn't sound floating enough (I hope that isn't too German). So I would say, if he uses 'a' occassionally, what is proved, he will have used it more commonly. Best Markus t Best wishes t Thomas t t t t t t [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Markus Lutz) am 27.04.2005 10:25:15 t t An:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu t Kopie: t t Thema: Re: Antwort: Weiss MS t t Hi Michael, t indeed there are only very few indications of fingering of the right hand. t There is one Sarabande, where probably Weiss himself has indicated the t fingers of the right hand in one arpeggio. t It is the Sarabande of the first suite in g minor (Reich/248), that is also t in London but with another Sarabande. t There is clearly shown that a (...) is used two times. t t In the London manuscript there are also some indications for the right hand t fingering - in some of the Preludes (in Eb major), but I seem to remember t that nowhere there is an indication for the a finger. t t When asked about the use of the a finger by Weiss, I would also argue from t his pupils as Falckenhagen. t The latter seems to use the a finger on several places in his arppegiated t choral versions, but I'm not sure if it is indicated somewhere. t t Best t Markus t t t On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 22:45:51 -0600, Michael Thames wrote: t t MT Hi Michael, t MT t MT I directed you to the wrong place. Finally being at home I checked t the t MT London t MT Ms and the piece I meant is on Folio 8v (Courante). t MT There is no direct indication of the a-finger. Actually you won't t find t MT anything about that in any source. t MT t MTThanks Thomas, If I remember correctly, Markus Lutz, mentioned, t Weiss t MT indicated the use of A, in a thread about that, a while back. However, t I've t MT looked through most of the London MS, and so far haven't found any hint t of t MT this, so I thought maybe it might be in the Dresden MS, which I don't t have t MT the original facsimile of. t MT Michael Thames t MT www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com t MT - Original Message - t MT From: Thomas Schall [EMAIL PROTECTED] t MT To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu t MT Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 3:12 PM t MT Subject: Re: Antwort: Weiss MS t MT t MT t MT Hi Michael, t MT t MT I directed you to the wrong place. Finally being at home I checked t the t MT London t MT Ms and the piece I meant is on Folio 8v (Courante). t MT There is no direct indication of the a-finger. Actually you won't t find t MT anything about that in any source. t MT My teacher asked me to solve such passages with p-i-m which works t fine in t MT most t MT places but on that piece I'm using the anular. t MT t MT Best wishes t MT Thomas t MT t MT Am Dienstag, 26. April 2005 18:03 schrieben Sie: t MT take a look at the d-major capriccio fairly at the beginning of t the t MT first t MT book - I don't have it at hand but it simulates barriolage which t is t MTcommon for violin players. t MT t MT Best Thomas t MT t MT Thomas, t MT There's a Capriccio in D towards the end of volume 2, but I can't t find t MT any direct indication of A finger anywhere. There is right hand t MT fingering t MT written in by Weiss, in the last measure, last chord, but he t indicates t MT the t MT use M,and I, and thumb. t MT I'm looking for specifically where Weiss calls for the use of t A, and t MT under what circumstances, by perhaps using three dots to show this. t MT Thanks! t MT Michael Thames t MT www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com t MT - Original Message - t MT From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] t MT To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu t MT Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 8:37 AM t MT Subject: Antwort: Weiss MS t MT t MTtake a look at the d
Re: Antwort: Re: Antwort: Weiss MS
I don't know why Michael asks this question but I think deriving from hints that the a-finger was used occasionally that it would have been used in a more general sense would lead to far. Best wishes Thomas Many thanks Thomas, and Markus, that's the info. I was looking for. The reason for me asking A friend just sent me a video of Barto playing a concert at the LSA last year. I couldn't help but notice He rarely use's A finger, but did seem to use it sometimes. Hence, I became curious as to the correct application of A. Another interesting thing I noticed, was Barto's technique, of repeating the same finger, on the same string. Very liberating! Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2005 5:39 AM Subject: Antwort: Re: Antwort: Weiss MS Hi Markus, I think it isn't sure Falckenhagen was pupil of Weiss. He was sent to Dresden by Wilhelmine of Bayreuth to *listen* to Weiss and we assume that he would have taken the opportunity to get some lessons from the best known master of the instrument of his time. Or is there any evidence Falckenhagen got lessons from Weiss? I don't think there are any RH fingerings given in Falckenhagens books. The rapid chordal variations in for instance Wach auf mein Herz nevertheless are hardly playable without the use of the anular. I don't know why Michael asks this question but I think deriving from hints that the a-finger was used occassionally that it would have been used in a more general sense would lead to far. Best wishes Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Markus Lutz) am 27.04.2005 10:25:15 An:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Kopie: Thema: Re: Antwort: Weiss MS Hi Michael, indeed there are only very few indications of fingering of the right hand. There is one Sarabande, where probably Weiss himself has indicated the fingers of the right hand in one arpeggio. It is the Sarabande of the first suite in g minor (Reich/248), that is also in London but with another Sarabande. There is clearly shown that a (...) is used two times. In the London manuscript there are also some indications for the right hand fingering - in some of the Preludes (in Eb major), but I seem to remember that nowhere there is an indication for the a finger. When asked about the use of the a finger by Weiss, I would also argue from his pupils as Falckenhagen. The latter seems to use the a finger on several places in his arppegiated choral versions, but I'm not sure if it is indicated somewhere. Best Markus On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 22:45:51 -0600, Michael Thames wrote: MT Hi Michael, MT MT I directed you to the wrong place. Finally being at home I checked the MT London MT Ms and the piece I meant is on Folio 8v (Courante). MT There is no direct indication of the a-finger. Actually you won't find MT anything about that in any source. MT MTThanks Thomas, If I remember correctly, Markus Lutz, mentioned, Weiss MT indicated the use of A, in a thread about that, a while back. However, I've MT looked through most of the London MS, and so far haven't found any hint of MT this, so I thought maybe it might be in the Dresden MS, which I don't have MT the original facsimile of. MT Michael Thames MT www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com MT - Original Message - MT From: Thomas Schall [EMAIL PROTECTED] MT To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu MT Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 3:12 PM MT Subject: Re: Antwort: Weiss MS MT MT MT Hi Michael, MT MT I directed you to the wrong place. Finally being at home I checked the MT London MT Ms and the piece I meant is on Folio 8v (Courante). MT There is no direct indication of the a-finger. Actually you won't find MT anything about that in any source. MT My teacher asked me to solve such passages with p-i-m which works fine in MT most MT places but on that piece I'm using the anular. MT MT Best wishes MT Thomas MT MT Am Dienstag, 26. April 2005 18:03 schrieben Sie: MT take a look at the d-major capriccio fairly at the beginning of the MT first MT book - I don't have it at hand but it simulates barriolage which is MTcommon for violin players. MT MT Best Thomas MT MT Thomas, MT There's a Capriccio in D towards the end of volume 2, but I can't find MT any direct indication of A finger anywhere. There is right hand MT fingering MT written in by Weiss, in the last measure, last chord, but he indicates MT the MT use M,and I, and thumb. MT I'm looking for specifically where Weiss calls for the use of A, and MT under what circumstances, by perhaps using three dots to show this. MT Thanks! MT Michael Thames MT www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com MT - Original Message - MT From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] MT To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu MT Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 8:37 AM MT Subject: Antwort
Re: Antwort: Re: Antwort: Weiss MS
Michael Thames wrote: A friend just sent me a video of Barto playing a concert at the LSA last year. I couldn't help but notice He rarely use's A finger, but did seem to use it sometimes. Hence, I became curious as to the correct application of A. Another interesting thing I noticed, was Barto's technique, of repeating the same finger, on the same string. Very liberating! Some years ago Barto concluded -- or at least arrived at the theory -- that Weiss used the third finger only rarely, and that his arpeggio passages should be played with thumb and two fingers. This was ostensibly the subject of an entire week-long class at an LSA seminar in the 1990s, though the actual presentation took about ten minutes. He repeated it a few minutes for people who had missed the first day, which still left the vast bulk of class time to be conducted as a regular master class. Bob is not the man you want for lengthy detailed lectures. HP To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Antwort: Re: Antwort: Weiss MS
Some years ago Barto concluded -- or at least arrived at the theory -- that Weiss used the third finger only rarely, and that his arpeggio passages should be played with thumb and two fingers. This was ostensibly the subject of an entire week-long class at an LSA seminar in the 1990s, though the actual presentation took about ten minutes. He repeated it a few minutes for people who had missed the first day, which still left the vast bulk of class time to be conducted as a regular master class. Bob is not the man you want for lengthy detailed lectures. HP Howard, and all, It sure would be nice if someone out there could compile a definitive method for baroque lute, also citing historical evidence etc. Martin Shepard has a very detailed account of the thumb under technique that is really one of the best explanations I've come across. Toyohiko Satoh's Method for the baroque Lute doesn't touch on this theory, of not using A, As a result a guitarist, turned lutenist, it's often times more confusing than enlightening. Also, a guitarist has a natural tendency to alternate I, and M. The idea of repeating the same finger on the same string is totally foreign, but very freeing on the baroque lute. I think using A came about in the 19th century after Sor's time. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Howard Posner [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2005 10:17 AM Subject: Re: Antwort: Re: Antwort: Weiss MS Michael Thames wrote: A friend just sent me a video of Barto playing a concert at the LSA last year. I couldn't help but notice He rarely use's A finger, but did seem to use it sometimes. Hence, I became curious as to the correct application of A. Another interesting thing I noticed, was Barto's technique, of repeating the same finger, on the same string. Very liberating! Some years ago Barto concluded -- or at least arrived at the theory -- that Weiss used the third finger only rarely, and that his arpeggio passages should be played with thumb and two fingers. This was ostensibly the subject of an entire week-long class at an LSA seminar in the 1990s, though the actual presentation took about ten minutes. He repeated it a few minutes for people who had missed the first day, which still left the vast bulk of class time to be conducted as a regular master class. Bob is not the man you want for lengthy detailed lectures. HP To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Antwort: Re: Antwort: Weiss MS
A friend just sent me a video of Barto playing a concert at the LSA last year. I couldn't help but notice He rarely use's A finger, but did seem to use it sometimes. Hence, I became curious as to the correct application of A. Another interesting thing I noticed, was Barto's technique, of repeating the same finger, on the same string. Very liberating! Some years ago Barto concluded -- or at least arrived at the theory -- that Weiss used the third finger only rarely, and that his arpeggio passages should be played with thumb and two fingers. This was ostensibly the subject of an entire week-long class at an LSA seminar in the 1990s, though the actual presentation took about ten minutes. He repeated it a few minutes for people who had missed the first day, which still left the vast bulk of class time to be conducted as a regular master class. Bob is not the man you want for lengthy detailed lectures. HP Indeed. Cuts through the bs and gets to the real thing. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Antwort: Re: Antwort: Weiss MS
With the legato style of playing the baroque lute, there are so many slurs, hammers-on, pull-off's, etc. It seems almost opposite of renaissance lute, where every note is plucked. So, with the legato left hand work, it is really not all that foreign to repeat plucked notes with a right finger. ed At 11:14 AM 4/27/2005 -0600, Michael Thames wrote: Howard, and all, It sure would be nice if someone out there could compile a definitive method for baroque lute, also citing historical evidence etc. Martin Shepard has a very detailed account of the thumb under technique that is really one of the best explanations I've come across. Toyohiko Satoh's Method for the baroque Lute doesn't touch on this theory, of not using A, As a result a guitarist, turned lutenist, it's often times more confusing than enlightening. Also, a guitarist has a natural tendency to alternate I, and M. The idea of repeating the same finger on the same string is totally foreign, but very freeing on the baroque lute. I think using A came about in the 19th century after Sor's time. Michael Thames Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Antwort: Re: Antwort: Weiss MS
With the legato style of playing the baroque lute, there are so many slurs, hammers-on, pull-off's, etc. It seems almost opposite of renaissance lute, where every note is plucked. So, with the legato left hand work, it is really not all that foreign to repeat plucked notes with a right finger. ed Also Ed, I find that if one is constantly mindful of alternating, I, and M, it throws your hand out of position as well. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Howard Posner [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2005 4:21 PM Subject: Re: Antwort: Re: Antwort: Weiss MS With the legato style of playing the baroque lute, there are so many slurs, hammers-on, pull-off's, etc. It seems almost opposite of renaissance lute, where every note is plucked. So, with the legato left hand work, it is really not all that foreign to repeat plucked notes with a right finger. ed At 11:14 AM 4/27/2005 -0600, Michael Thames wrote: Howard, and all, It sure would be nice if someone out there could compile a definitive method for baroque lute, also citing historical evidence etc. Martin Shepard has a very detailed account of the thumb under technique that is really one of the best explanations I've come across. Toyohiko Satoh's Method for the baroque Lute doesn't touch on this theory, of not using A, As a result a guitarist, turned lutenist, it's often times more confusing than enlightening. Also, a guitarist has a natural tendency to alternate I, and M. The idea of repeating the same finger on the same string is totally foreign, but very freeing on the baroque lute. I think using A came about in the 19th century after Sor's time. Michael Thames Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Antwort: Weiss MS
take a look at the d-major capriccio fairly at the beginning of the first book - I don't have it at hand but it simulates barriolage which is common for violin players. Best Thomas Thomas, There's a Capriccio in D towards the end of volume 2, but I can't find any direct indication of A finger anywhere. There is right hand fingering written in by Weiss, in the last measure, last chord, but he indicates the use M,and I, and thumb. I'm looking for specifically where Weiss calls for the use of A, and under what circumstances, by perhaps using three dots to show this. Thanks! Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 8:37 AM Subject: Antwort: Weiss MS take a look at the d-major capriccio fairly at the beginning of the first book - I don't have it at hand but it simulates barriolage which is common for violin players. Best Thomas Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] am 26.04.2005 16:32:38 An:Lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Kopie: Thema: Weiss MS I recall a while back the question came up regarding the use of the A finger, in baroque lute music in general, and of Weiss in particular. Someone mentioned that Weiss, specifically called for the use of A, in certain pieces. Are there any indications of this in the London MS? If not where can one find this, fingering. Thanks! Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html CONFIDENTIALITY : This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and may be privileged. If you are not a named recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to another person, use it for any purpose or store or copy the information in any medium.
Re: Antwort: Weiss MS
Hi Michael, I directed you to the wrong place. Finally being at home I checked the London Ms and the piece I meant is on Folio 8v (Courante). There is no direct indication of the a-finger. Actually you won't find anything about that in any source. My teacher asked me to solve such passages with p-i-m which works fine in most places but on that piece I'm using the anular. Best wishes Thomas Am Dienstag, 26. April 2005 18:03 schrieben Sie: take a look at the d-major capriccio fairly at the beginning of the first book - I don't have it at hand but it simulates barriolage which is common for violin players. Best Thomas Thomas, There's a Capriccio in D towards the end of volume 2, but I can't find any direct indication of A finger anywhere. There is right hand fingering written in by Weiss, in the last measure, last chord, but he indicates the use M,and I, and thumb. I'm looking for specifically where Weiss calls for the use of A, and under what circumstances, by perhaps using three dots to show this. Thanks! Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 8:37 AM Subject: Antwort: Weiss MS take a look at the d-major capriccio fairly at the beginning of the first book - I don't have it at hand but it simulates barriolage which is common for violin players. Best Thomas Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] am 26.04.2005 16:32:38 An:Lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Kopie: Thema: Weiss MS I recall a while back the question came up regarding the use of the A finger, in baroque lute music in general, and of Weiss in particular. Someone mentioned that Weiss, specifically called for the use of A, in certain pieces. Are there any indications of this in the London MS? If not where can one find this, fingering. Thanks! Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html CONFIDENTIALITY : This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and may be privileged. If you are not a named recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to another person, use it for any purpose or store or copy the information in any medium. -- Thomas Schall Niederhofheimer Weg 3 D-65843 Sulzbach 06196/74519 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Three witches watch three Swatch watches. Which witch watch which Swatch watch?
Re: Antwort: Weiss MS
Hi Michael, I directed you to the wrong place. Finally being at home I checked the London Ms and the piece I meant is on Folio 8v (Courante). There is no direct indication of the a-finger. Actually you won't find anything about that in any source. Thanks Thomas, If I remember correctly, Markus Lutz, mentioned, Weiss indicated the use of A, in a thread about that, a while back. However, I've looked through most of the London MS, and so far haven't found any hint of this, so I thought maybe it might be in the Dresden MS, which I don't have the original facsimile of. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Thomas Schall [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 3:12 PM Subject: Re: Antwort: Weiss MS Hi Michael, I directed you to the wrong place. Finally being at home I checked the London Ms and the piece I meant is on Folio 8v (Courante). There is no direct indication of the a-finger. Actually you won't find anything about that in any source. My teacher asked me to solve such passages with p-i-m which works fine in most places but on that piece I'm using the anular. Best wishes Thomas Am Dienstag, 26. April 2005 18:03 schrieben Sie: take a look at the d-major capriccio fairly at the beginning of the first book - I don't have it at hand but it simulates barriolage which is common for violin players. Best Thomas Thomas, There's a Capriccio in D towards the end of volume 2, but I can't find any direct indication of A finger anywhere. There is right hand fingering written in by Weiss, in the last measure, last chord, but he indicates the use M,and I, and thumb. I'm looking for specifically where Weiss calls for the use of A, and under what circumstances, by perhaps using three dots to show this. Thanks! Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 8:37 AM Subject: Antwort: Weiss MS take a look at the d-major capriccio fairly at the beginning of the first book - I don't have it at hand but it simulates barriolage which is common for violin players. Best Thomas Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] am 26.04.2005 16:32:38 An:Lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Kopie: Thema: Weiss MS I recall a while back the question came up regarding the use of the A finger, in baroque lute music in general, and of Weiss in particular. Someone mentioned that Weiss, specifically called for the use of A, in certain pieces. Are there any indications of this in the London MS? If not where can one find this, fingering. Thanks! Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html CONFIDENTIALITY : This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and may be privileged. If you are not a named recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to another person, use it for any purpose or store or copy the information in any medium. -- Thomas Schall Niederhofheimer Weg 3 D-65843 Sulzbach 06196/74519 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Three witches watch three Swatch watches. Which witch watch which Swatch watch?
