Re: Assorted Questions (Judenkunig)
There is a copy of Judenkuenig's book in the Vienna National library with an appendix of music copied by one of his students. It also contains a biographical sketch of some kind written by that student.. Perhaps the sketch is the source for Bruger's account of his name. I have not read it for many years, althoygh I expect that it is in the Denkmaeler der Tonkunst in Oesterreich volume containing transcrpitons of J's music, ed. Koczirz That would be in DTOe Jg. XVIII/2 (Vol. 37). The Koczirz article on J, is in the Sammelbaende der internationalen Musik-Gesellschaft 6 (1904-05). MR wrote:= <> > Hans Dagobert Bruger, in his "Schule des Lautenspiels", Wolfenbuettel 1926, > explains the name "Judenkunig" in this way: > > "The remarkable name "Judenkunig" or "Judenkoenig" (i.e. Jew-King) > is explained by the fact, that a predecessor was given this name as a > nick-name, > due to his participation in passion plays in the role of Christ, King of > Jews." -- Best wishes, Mathias Mathias Roesel, Grosze Annenstrasze 5, 28199 Bremen, Deutschland/ Germany, T/F +49 - 421 - 165 49 97, Fax +49 1805 060 334 480 67, E-Mail: Mathias.Roesel-online.de, mroeselni-bremen.de
Re: Assorted Questions
>>And the most prominent may be Mountbatten, the former Battenbergs who I knew of a family in Connecticut a number of years ago by the name of Greenberg who performed early music together as "Monteverdi Trio". Clever translation, eh? Leonard
Re: Assorted Questions
Richard, Catching up, and I didn't see Howard's question. > Here in England I also know people whose names are clearly > anglicised versions of German names given to their families at the time in question. And the most prominent may be Mountbatten, the former Battenbergs who changed the name in WWI. But then Windsor isn't an anglicization but a pure change from Saxe-Coburg ( I think that was it). But I'm tempted into an old joke. In the States there are many who have made their names more pronouncable in American English. So -- the new immigrant with a name full of consecutive vowels goes to the judge and asks to have his name changed to Murphy. Then six months later he is back asking the judge to change it to Smith. The judge asks why he wants the new change. "So, when people ask 'what was your name before it was Smith' ". Best, Jon
Assorted Questions
good question, Howard :-) I phrased that badly, in order to avoid unnecessary complications and details of my private life. Suffice it to say that I got the information from, among others, my mother, who came from Prague and whose maiden name, translated, was that of a type of orange. She had many friends with such names, including Max Brod (a variant of the word for 'bread') and also Franz Kafka. Here in England I also know people whose names are clearly anglicised versions of German names given to their families at the time in question. As regards your specific question, I am 62. Cheers TB
Re: Assorted Questions
[EMAIL PROTECTED] at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > as I know from many Jewish friends, whose names were > given them (on payment of the appropriate amount of money) after the > emancipation from the ghettos. Hmm. Just how old are you?
Re: Assorted Questions
Arne Keller wrote: > > > Hans Dagobert Bruger, in his "Schule des Lautenspiels", Wolfenbuettel 1926, > explains the name "Judenkunig" in this way: > > "Der auffallende Name "Judenkunig" oder "Judenkuenig" (d.i. Juden-Koenig) > erklaert sich daraus, dass ein Ahnherr dieses Namens ihn als Beinamen wegen > seiner > Mitwirkung bei Passionsspielen in der Rolle des Christus oder Judenkoenigs > empfing." > > "The remarkable name "Judenkunig" or "Judenkoenig" (i.e. Jew-King) > is explained by the fact, that a predecessor was given this name as a > nick-name, > due to his participation in passion plays in the role of Christ, King of > Jews." > In his article about Judenkunig Rudolf Henning mentions that a Hartmann Schmid (possibly JK's grandfather) is mentioned as "called Judenküng" in 1420 and 9 years later as Hartmann Jundenküng. Apparently he adopted his nickname as his "official" name. Rainer ads PS See LS journal 1976.
Re: Assorted Questions
> As opposed to that, converted Jews in those days would rather have avoided > hints of their > provenances, I suppose. Not necessarily: some names were clearly celebratory of the conversion (especially in southern Europe), like the Nostradamus type, de Santa Maria, Christoflour, etc. So Hansi too could have had the honor of being genetically related to Bassanos and Ferraboscos. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://turovsky.org http://polyhymnion.org
Assorted Questions
Mathias writes: 'As opposed to that, converted Jews in those days would rather have avoided hints of their provenance'. Of course I know what you mean, but Jews who converted (or were forced to convert) were often not given the chance to hide their origins, as I know from many Jewish friends, whose names were given them (on payment of the appropriate amount of money) after the emancipation from the ghettos. Admittedly, that was a few centuries after Hans Judenkunig, but it just made me wonder. Cheers Tom --
Re: Assorted Questions
>> It occurred to me that Hans Judenkunig might have been a converted Jew (my >> somewhat elderly 'Grove' has nothing to say about his origins). Hans Bahlow, Deutsches Namenlexikon, 1992 (15,000 entries), p. 265, explains that Jud may have been Jewish or non-Jewish. As for non-Jewish, Jud as well as compound names like Judenkunig may be taken as hints of relations with Jews (commercial, I assume). As opposed to that, converted Jews in those days would rather have avoided hints of their provenances, I suppose. However, Bruger's explanation appears to me as guesswork as I couldn't find his explanation in current related literature (namenlexika). > Hans Dagobert Bruger, in his "Schule des Lautenspiels", Wolfenbuettel 1926, > explains the name "Judenkunig" in this way: > > "The remarkable name "Judenkunig" or "Judenkoenig" (i.e. Jew-King) > is explained by the fact, that a predecessor was given this name as a > nick-name, > due to his participation in passion plays in the role of Christ, King of > Jews." -- Best wishes, Mathias Mathias Roesel, Grosze Annenstrasze 5, 28199 Bremen, Deutschland/ Germany, T/F +49 - 421 - 165 49 97, Fax +49 1805 060 334 480 67, E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Assorted Questions
Dear Arne, Many thanks for the info. and the translation It was just an idea, and your source seems to be most plausible. Ich habe mich oft gefragt, woher der Name kommt und nun weiss ich's. Herzliche Gruesse und abermals vielen Dank Tom
Re: Assorted Questions
At 05:56 03-12-2003 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >It occurred to me that Hans Judenkunig might have been a converted Jew (my >somewhat elderly 'Grove' has nothing to say about his origins). Certainly >converted Jews were frequently given names that made their origins clear to one and >all. When the Jews were finally allowed out of the ghettos in the 19th >century, particularly in Germany/Austria, they were allowed to purchase a family >name. The less they could afford, the (literally) sillier (silly that is, in >German) the name they were allocated. So poor Jews given names like Zwirnnadel >(Threadneedle), or suchlike, while those better off were allowed to call >themselves Rothschild. Only an idea, but the name 'Judenkunig' is so unlikely >(certainly in my studies of German culture I've never come across one like it), that I >just wondered whether this could be the reason. Cheers > >Tom Hans Dagobert Bruger, in his "Schule des Lautenspiels", Wolfenbuettel 1926, explains the name "Judenkunig" in this way: "Der auffallende Name "Judenkunig" oder "Judenkuenig" (d.i. Juden-Koenig) erklaert sich daraus, dass ein Ahnherr dieses Namens ihn als Beinamen wegen seiner Mitwirkung bei Passionsspielen in der Rolle des Christus oder Judenkoenigs empfing." "The remarkable name "Judenkunig" or "Judenkoenig" (i.e. Jew-King) is explained by the fact, that a predecessor was given this name as a nick-name, due to his participation in passion plays in the role of Christ, King of Jews." (my translation.) Chordially, Arne Keller.
Assorted Questions
It occurred to me that Hans Judenkunig might have been a converted Jew (my somewhat elderly 'Grove' has nothing to say about his origins). Certainly converted Jews were frequently given names that made their origins clear to one and all. When the Jews were finally allowed out of the ghettos in the 19th century, particularly in Germany/Austria, they were allowed to purchase a family name. The less they could afford, the (literally) sillier (silly that is, in German) the name they were allocated. So poor Jews given names like Zwirnnadel (Threadneedle), or suchlike, while those better off were allowed to call themselves Rothschild. Only an idea, but the name 'Judenkunig' is so unlikely (certainly in my studies of German culture I've never come across one like it), that I just wondered whether this could be the reason. Cheers Tom
Re: Assorted questions
On Tuesday 02 December 2003 14:19, Daniel Shoskes wrote: Dear Daniel, some answers because I saw nobody replied to you. > Things I have wondered about (and never thought to post as individual > questions): > > 1) What are the early signs that lute strings and frets need to be > replaced? (short of the obvious late decomposition) You start retuning the string every time again and it's still wrong in different positions. I turn the frets 180 degrees sometimes because I'm to lazy to replace them. early signs are the clear dip in the fret; it's to far when the string is touching the next fret. > > > 3) I recently downloaded a wonderful piece by Vallet called Malsimmes. Any > indication if this should be a slow or fast piece? It seems to work either > way. There is no indication. It's a dance-like piece found also in Van den Hove. Because of it's character I would prefer to play it not too slow, but not fast. > > > 5) For those of you who play Ren and Baroque, is it reasonable to learn > both at the same time or does it make more sense to achieve a fairly high > level of technique in one before switching to lessons exclusively on the > other? I would certainly not start on both instruments at the same time. Renaissance lute is preferred as start instrument because of the many available easy pieces and printed sources. It's also not a good idea because of the different finger techniques. > > 6) I notice that some Rennaisance tablature archives have the letters > placed in the spaces and others have them on the lines. The few facsimilies > I have seen seem to be only in the spaces. Are there different conventions? > Depends on the original source. Some of these source have printed the tablature through the lines, some on the lines. There are certainly several facsimiles which show tablature characters through lines (Besard, Adriaensen ..) Taco > Thanks all in advance.
Re: Assorted questions
G'day Daniel, While others are fussing over facsimiles I'll have a go at your questions >1) What are the early signs that lute strings and frets need to be >replaced? (short of the obvious >late decomposition) The 3 warning signs of an impending string change are 1) Your gut string is growing hair at some particular place. Actually starting the unravelling dance. It may last a little while longer. You have the choice of clipping it off w/ a sharp clipper (don't pull it--it will just get worse!) or living w/ the duller sound. Usually this will cause warning sign #2. Personally l prefer the duller sound for this very reason. 2) The intonation is going off. This means that while it may be in tune as an open string its charactistics change a little sharp or flat at various frets. A good test of this is to fret it at the 7th fret and then hit the harmonic at the 7th fret. If it isn't the same note (give or take an octave) then your string is "false" (--or your fret has wandered. To check the your fret, measure the string length and make sure your fret is exactly 1/3 the distance from nut to bridge.) This intonation problem is not limited to gut strings. Metal wound strings can load up w/ finger grunge and even nylgut trebles may go funny after a year or so. 3) It translates from an entity of one to a new life of two seperate entities. >2) Anyone know the words or at least general meaning of "I can not keepe >my wyfe at howme"? Is it >that she drags me around to things I don't want to do or is she sleeping >around? Probably not the former but there's an honestly good chance she really is just shoppynge all daie. The ballad tune that precedes it in the Margeret Board book is "Howm againe Market is done". Are they related? A good excuse? Doth she protest too much? >3) I recently downloaded a wonderful piece by Vallet called Malsimmes. Any >indication if this should >be a slow or fast piece? It seems to work either way. It's easy and tempting to get a running tempo until one sees the unbelievably complex variations on it in the Pickering manuscript. Then you must needs take it w/ a grain of salt and not a dash. In the modern edition of NV's "Secrets des Muses" there is a very nice list of other places where this tune shows up. One of the downsides of these downloads is that one often misses out on these niceties and other secrets. It takes a lifetime of keeping your eyes open (and, yes, a little cash) for these books but it pays off. The SdM facsimile is available from the Dutch Lute Society though the modern edition --published by CNRS-- contains the nifty concordances. >4) Any idea the story behind the name of Hans Judenkunig? Was he Jewish or >does "king of the Jews" >refer to Christ? I'm guessing he isn't behind the intabulations of the >Dreydel song and Oseh Shalom >in the pdf archives! I wouldn't get too caught up in the names. I gather Luther nailed more theses than lutes. >5) For those of you who play Ren and Baroque, is it reasonable to learn >both at the same time or does >it make more sense to achieve a fairly high level of technique in one >before switching to lessons >exclusively on the other? It's an awful lot of work and patience to learn even one. Back then one learned only one at a time. Remember that there are wonderful composers of equal caliber in each period. >6) I notice that some Rennaisance tablature archives have the letters >placed in the spaces and others >have them on the lines. The few facsimilies I have seen seem to be only in >the spaces. Are there >different conventions? Original prints exist using both. See Besard (1603), Adrianssen (1584 & 1592) and all the anthologies by Pierre Phalese (1546-1571) for very legible lines through letters. And see the Vallet facsimiles for examples of letters between lines. all the best, Sean Smith
Assorted questions
Things I have wondered about (and never thought to post as individual questions): 1) What are the early signs that lute strings and frets need to be replaced? (short of the obvious late decomposition) 2) Anyone know the words or at least general meaning of "I can not keepe my wyfe at howme"? Is it that she drags me around to things I don't want to do or is she sleeping around? 3) I recently downloaded a wonderful piece by Vallet called Malsimmes. Any indication if this should be a slow or fast piece? It seems to work either way. 4) Any idea the story behind the name of Hans Judenkunig? Was he Jewish or does "king of the Jews" refer to Christ? I'm guessing he isn't behind the intabulations of the Dreydel song and Oseh Shalom in the pdf archives! 5) For those of you who play Ren and Baroque, is it reasonable to learn both at the same time or does it make more sense to achieve a fairly high level of technique in one before switching to lessons exclusively on the other? 6) I notice that some Rennaisance tablature archives have the letters placed in the spaces and others have them on the lines. The few facsimilies I have seen seem to be only in the spaces. Are there different conventions? Thanks all in advance.
